Everybody step back take a breath, We will defeat this law in AZ

[SargeUNN]

I know everyone is upset, and worry about this law, but folks there are many here in Arizona that are working on overturning it and we will. Not every action can be made public at this time, but not only are the Democrats working on it, but some Republicans who are upset about it are working along with us to overturn this. We have a governor's race coming up this year and we have a strong Democrat that is very likely to win that will see this law gets off the books.

As for Arpaio, the investigation into him has become very interesting and while some stuff is not available for the public at that time, the investigation is going to bring down Arpaio and his cheif deputy. The thing is that actions take time to get to the point they can be made public, but they are going on and Arpaio and this horrendous law are going down.

Jeff Farias, and us at our network are working on keeping you as informed of this as we can, and we do talk to people who are aware of what is what so we know what is going on even if we can't tell all yet. If you really want to know what is going on tune in, we are trying to keep you informed.

[Better Today]

1. No, it's been ten years coming, at least. Don't tell us to "slow down,

back up, and give you a chance to start over",. . . gee who does that sound like?

[SargeUNN]

5. where did I say that?

I am right here in the center of this and we are in contact with people that are working. You do what you want by all means but don't discount the work going on by people who KNOWS the story from the inside and working on it. Such statements as you made is out of anger but we here have to deal with it first hand. You might be one of those who just like to spew on a messageboard and you might be one who does activist works, but what is needed here is sensible and rational acts not just unbridled anger flying off in any directions.

[Better Today]

54. That's all you're saying, over and over, imo.

And to be honest, if you're attitude is representative of Arizonans, then you just re-affirm the idea that boycotting is the only answer and that those in AZ that might've made a difference don't have the wherewithall to do so without strong outside pressure, like say,. . . a boycott of all things AZ.

[saracat]

2. A very good suggestion indeed. Jeff and Sarge and everyone do the best

possible job of bringing the "facts" forward. and everything Sarge states above is the truth.

[pinto]

3. I'm glad to see that it's already been challenged. Seems to be so vague as to be unconstitutional.

:hi:

[BlooInBloo]

4. Can you please tell me what % of white Arizonans support this law?

Thanks!

[SargeUNN]

7. sorry I have no stats on it

I can tell you that the 70% stat given by one poll is a trumped up poll. I also can tell you that from my investigations and interview of people here that the law isn't liked but also many don't realize the horrors in the law. The biggest thing is educating people what is in it, but truthfully from what I am seeing this law will never see a day of enforcement.

[saracat]

10. I believe most of those 70% of all Arizonans are only supporting the very same issues that

Janet Napolitano ran on and were elected on, border security and a demand for federal intervention. They do not support the element of the violation of constitutional rights.All of the police virtually, except Arapio, are against this legislation. Many are confused about the different aspects of this legislation. it is possible to support parts of it but not all of it.

[SargeUNN]

13. Yes the whole bill was horribly misrepresented

The fact that most people don't even know what was in it is a telling fact. Even the Arizona Republic which we call the Arizona Republican came out against the bill tells a lot. I have talked to several people and most aren't aware of that this law has a provision in it that makes it where if a person feels the law enforcement is not enforcing this that they can sue. The bill was rammed through the legislature fast and even the most observant didn't know about what was in it.

I know that during the time Brewer had the bill and before she signed it the details got out pretty fast and she got all kinds of request to veto it. When I called it took repeated calls to be put on hold for a few minutes, and then when I got to talk to the person, they told me there was 25 on hold behind me so no comment could be taken. She asked me if I was for or against and I said I am against it because it is racist. She said we have heard that a lot today, and I said I am from Mississippi so I know a little bit about what is racist. She laughed and agreed, then hung up.

[BlooInBloo]

25. Ah. So almost nobody KNEW what the bill said?

And then a day or 2 before the Governor signed it, all of a sudden pretty much EVERYBODY knew?

That's the explanation now?

[saracat]

30. They still don't know. Do you know everything that is in the bill? My guess is not.

Most folks only know sections of it, usually the parts they want or don't want to hear.

[BlooInBloo]

46. Ah. So STILL almost nobody knows. Stranger and stranger.

[saracat]

8. Probably very few. 70% support strengthening security at the border, which is actually a good thing.

People have been dying in the desert, and if they knew there weren't vulnerable areas, less would attempt it or be taken advantage of by coyotes. I am sure very few"white" or Latino or any Arizonans of any color actually know what is in the bill yet.Even the Libertarians will go ballistic when they learn how the rights of any citizen can be questioned. Few Arizonans will support their own rights being taken away. And as our Attorney general has stated, this does NOT contribute either to border security OR economic growth. This bill may never even go into effect.

[BlooInBloo]

11. Just out of curiousity, if "very few" white folks support it, and we assume for the sake

of argument that very few hispanic Arizonans support it, then, um.... how on earth did it get passed?

I realize it's all speculation, since we don't have real numbers in front of us. Just going with your speculation.

How do you think that's possible? Do you think Native Americans were unanimous in their support for it, and the Arizona legislators listened to them? What's your best theory about that?

[saracat]

19. First of all, the legislators in question are the worst of the worst because only the arch

partisan loons vote in the GOP primary and they only nominate loons. The rest of the GOP vote blind.There aren't any moderate Repugs to vote for, well, there is one Carolyn Allen, the State Sen from Scottsdale and she voted against this, but she is retiring. The GOP vote lockstep for the only candidates they have to choose from, the RW Loons. The Dem's meanwhile, don't vote down ticket. The state party spent all its time and effort narrowing the gap between Obama and McCain because it would be so cool if we could carry Az for Obama. They did no GOTV, and did nothing for the locals, except a little for the congressional races, most of which we won. They thought the locals could coast on Obamas coattails, but he didn't have any coattails.And many of those Dems who did vote, didn't vote down ticket.We lost almost every state race in 08, except we picked up two corporation commission seats, only because they didn't rely on OFA or the state party. And they made sure they were very well funded and got the word out.

But other than that the loons won because they also had an anti gay marriage measure on the ballot at the last minute out of state special interest groups flooded the market and they descended at the polls and throughout the community like locusts.They were everywhere and the Democrats didn't answer them. They had beaten back an anti gay partnership measure in 2006 so they didn't think re framing it would be as effective as it was,and RW nuts, who hated Mccain, and there are many, who otherwise would have stayed home, came out and voted and they voted down line, unlike our folks.

This is how this legislation as well as some of the most anti choice legislation in the nation was passed. Our death knell was sounded when we lost Janet Napolitano. We completely lost our buffer with the loss of her veto pen.

The solution to all this is GOTV and down line voting and an understanding that local politics is just as important as the federal.

And NB, not all Hispanics are opposed to this legislation and there some who not only support it but are GOP. And BTW, the voter registration difference in AZ isn't that big a margin.It is 35% GOP to 33% Dem with the rest divided among Libertarian, Greens and Indies, with indies being the fastest growing group and both Dems and the GOP losing registration numbers. On the numbers, we can win if we get the vote out.

[BlooInBloo]

20. Where did I ever say, suggest, or imply that "all Hispanics are opposed to this legislation"?

You seem to really be stuck on arguing with things I never, ever said.

[saracat]

22. Sorry. You said "few". But that wasn't the crux of my argument. I had hoped to make clear what

happened and why we have these legislators who wrote this bill.

[BlooInBloo]

23. So your theory is that the legislators passed it without the support...

of just almost no Arizonans (white, black, hispanic, Native American, asian, etc.)?

[saracat]

28. Yes. It was misrepresented. Only the loons like this bill. That is why I specifically

mentioned the one moderate Repug who voted against this. I don't think the governor really likes it either but if she wanted the GOP nomination, which will be decided by the loons, she had to sign it.
Some "think" this was about border security.As Terry said it is not. once they realize this doesn't do anything to make them "safer" and it assults their own rights, they are going to be against it. But most folks aren't politcal.Most do not even follow this stuff. They have no idea what is going on. The R's usually just vote R and the Dems we can get out don't vote down ticket.Thats the story.

[sabrina 1]

44. I'm not sure that GOP Hispanics support the bill. A statement

was issued by Arizona Hispanic Republicans denouncing it:

Statement from Arizona Hispanic Republicans

Arizona Hispanic Republicans will not vote for Jan Brewer this year because we are holding her accountable for supporting a bill that violates the Constitution and our Civil Rights. I have sounded the alarm to all Republicans in this state that the passing of this bill is political suicide.

The State of Arizona already has a blemish because we were the last state of the Union to recognize Martin Luther King as an official holiday. Arizona Hispanic Republicans will write an open letter to our RNC Chair, Michael Steele, as he continues to consider where to hold our next 2011 GOP convention. We will caution our RNC Chair to consider the consequences of that because then it could be perceived as rewarding the state that implemented strong anti-Hispanic laws that has rattled our community and our Civil Rights.

[SargeUNN]

24. Good question and glad you asked it

The problem is that the legislature is made up of people who are birthers and libertarians. They don't make up the majority but they sold themselves as small government, reduced taxes and used the mega churches and religious structures. They also ran ringers as greens to divide the vote in some cases and it lost us one good rep. in the house. People thought they were voting for one thing and got another so now libertarians that thought they were voting for small govt. instead help elect these nazis. Some who thought they were voting for a Green candidate over a Democrat they weren't sure of were instead voting for a ringer put there just to weaken certain candidates.

[BlooInBloo]

26. So did a lot of (somebody) support the bill under a misunderstanding of what the bill said?

Or did most everybody misunderstand what the bill said, and yet still almost nobody (among the citizenry) support it even misunderstood?

[SargeUNN]

32. Probably so

it is a big thing here and certainly a problem that needs attention, but when you have opportunist like Arpaio and Pearce fanning the flames for their personal gain, then it makes it hard to get people to think and not react only on emotions. Also when details aren't known that would turn people away it makes it harder to get a bill like this to be stopped. We don't have a lot of media here to get out the hidden stuff that right wing media hides and when the ones who do the research that needs to be done beyond the surface is minimized and a bill is rushed through, then fighting it is all the harder.

[saracat]

33. The bill wasn't voted on by the citizenry. it was passed by the RW loons who

cheated their way into the leg in many cases. Sarge is right about the GOP running Greens to split the vote. Several GOP legislators were removed from office this year for election fraud but guesse what? Because the GOP was elected, they replaced them with other GOP reps! Winning is everything it seems.
Somehow I think you assume that Arizona voters should be really well informed on issues and know what the Leg is up to. Well, few voters in any state are, and especially in a state where day to day living has become an impossible struggle. And this is only one of many egregious bills they have passed since not having to face Janet's veto pen and it is not the only one violating civil rights. Nobody was threatening boycotts and the like when they passed all the anti choice measures or passed their own version of prop 8.

[BlooInBloo]

35. So you're saying legislators elected by Arizona citizens are comfortable passing laws...

that practically NO Arizonan citizens support?

Man - I knew you guys elected some shitty legislators down there, but apparently I didn't know the half of it.

Thanks for clarifying!

[saracat]

38. There are probably some who support this, but not very many. Few would support all the provisions.

You know, it isn't just Arizona that does that. Do you think most Americans support FISA or the Patriot Act ? Do you think most Americans even know what is in those bills? And yet, Congress passes those bills. Arizona isn't unusual in this and our voters aren't any more informed than the average American voter.

[SargeUNN]

36. true it isn't easy to be informed here

Most people I know depend on media to keep them informed. My apt. manager is a smart person who does her best to know what is happening so often she comes to me to find out things because she has questions but the media just fails to do so. I don't know if she knows about this law very well but she will certainly be interested since her husband is dark skinned.

I don't want to go into some areas of our local media but let's just say we don't have a lot of venues to go too deep into things and people like Jeff Farias and those who try to learn are just not as available locally as really should be.

[BlooInBloo]

45. It's just so.... odd how according to you, pretty much nobody knew what this bill said...

Until around 2 days ago when it became national news. And now pretty much everybody knows.

How strange.

[EFerrari]

6. Have to disagree. This is not a time to sit back at all.

This is a time to ring up networks and figure out how to be the most useful. Sorry.

[SargeUNN]

9. I am not saying sit back but

I am saying if you do something do something constructive and not reactionary. There are things people can do and be effective, there are things that seem good but in the long run turn up being like taking a sledge hammer to kill a fly.

[EFerrari]

29. I really don't believe that counseling people to be passive media consumers

is good advice.

And if I need your advice on how to respond to this situation, I will ask for it.

[SargeUNN]

37. did you read my response above?

I think I already replied to that and apparently you didn't see it. Seems you misread or missed the reply so please go back and reread.

[EFerrari]

43. I haven't missed anything, thanks.

[SargeUNN]

48. then you didn't understand

I challenge you to show me where I said for people to do nothing, I NEVER said that and if you say I did then you are incorrect. Calling for reasonable actions and effective ones is hardly saying do nothing is two different things now isn't it?

[EFerrari]

50. Have a good night, Sarge.

[SargeUNN]

51. you too thanks

I think tomorrow, well today now, I am going to stay off DU since it is my birthday and I want to just relax and try to ignore this hideous law and just try to enjoy one day with the right wing garbage depressing me.

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. Well given the editorial in one of your papers

today... I'd say that the threat (or reality) of a boycott is having an effect already.

So we all have a role to play

And by the way cannot wait for Joe, his deputy, and the DA to go down...

There are a few others in State government that should go down as well and I know AG Holder is running a civil rights investigation. This law is full of actual and potential violations, so I'd give the DOJ about two weeks, realistically. That is how long it will take them to go through this and prepare a filing.

[SargeUNN]

16. good I certainly hope so

the threat is powerful in itself and hopefully it alone will scare these fascist Pearce people. I certainly think the threat alone is going to scare off many of them and so I think all the threats are a positive and helpful thing. If people do a massive boycott so be it, but honestly I think right now the threat alone is helpful.

I just hope that enough people will become of aware of Russell Pearce and expose his neo-nazi connections that he couldn't win election within his own family. If you are aware of him please do find out and see him and J.T. Ready together. Also another person that has a lot of influence here is an fellow we progressives know all too well and the Grover Norquist. Norquist has invested in many of the legislative members here in AZ since he has a strong business interest in Az. I can't say beyond a shadow of a doubt but I am sure that Pearce is on Norquist payroll.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. Grover is also doing something else and not just in AZ

they are building cadres, sorry for the term, to elect to the federal level. And it is not just limited to AZ.

[KharmaTrain]

14. This Can't Fade Away...

I listen to Jeff and know the difficult situation Arizona Democrats are facing...a challenge but also an opportunity.

If you let these disgraceful fascist laws to take root...to make it look like it's working or that it the "voters think its ok", other states will follow the leader...and soon this problem becomes bigger and harder to contain. The corporate media will move along to the next bright shiny toy with all their misinformation intact...framing this as the fault/problem of "illegals" rather than those who profit from their labor and avoid taxes. It fans the flames of anti-Hispanic and more specifically Mexican hatred as a scapegoat in an attempt to intimidate their votes just like the rushpublican try with the blacks. They know that unless they marginalize these groups they'll never win another national election.

I'm hoping for large demonstrations...massive fundraising and GOTV efforts to oust the teabaggers who have hijacked your state and use these bills as a rallying cry. Patience, a virtue, but silence is deadly.

Cheers...

[SargeUNN]

17. it ain't going to fade for sure

that is not only true outside the state but inside as well. I for one won't let it go untalked and will make every effort I can to keep this dark event in the face of EVERY candidate and official.

[EFerrari]

21. If you haven't seen Greg Palast's report about vote suppression

in AZ under Brewer as SOS, go watch it. He was on Thom's show today. I want to talk to Palast about that. Because if you know you can suppress those votes, you have impunity, no?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x459457

[SargeUNN]

27. I won't comment on that since

I know Greg and also know that our elections department here is one of the best in the nation and is being used as a model in many areas. Brewer was certainly not someone that did a good job as SoS and strangely enough there is an effort by the right to get rid of Helen Purcells a republican that has made some really good chances in elections. She has drawn the ire of the extremist but hopefully she can overcome them. She is one that while we disagree on some things she has done an excellent job in her current position.

[saracat]

31. Amen Sarge. We DO have a very good department of elections In Maricopa County

and Helen has always done a great job.

[EFerrari]

34. AZ was the first state to "offer" insecure internet voting.

Brewer fought tooth and nail against the challenge to her certification of the Diebold vapor voting machines and until a couple of months ago, ES&S had a monopoly on voting equipment. No, AZ is not a model by any means.

[SargeUNN]

39. if so then why

did members of our elections department appear before a house committee in Washington DC at the end of March, to help improve elections systems and some of the programs we have here in Arizona are being used as models for programs? I realize you probably don't know of this but it is the case and if you want I will be glad to let you talk to someone who was there and was one of those questioned by the congress people.

[EFerrari]

41. You realize that all kinds of people testify before Congress, right?

And Brewer left a big fat mess. Like this one:

An independent voting-technology expert finds serious problems in the Maricopa County Elections Department

An independent voting-technology expert has discovered widespread problems within the Maricopa County Elections Department that raise serious questions over the ability of voting officials in the nation's fourth-most-populous county to conduct fair and accurate elections.

"Any election where the margin of victory is under 2 percent could be called into question," says University of Iowa computer science professor Douglas Jones.

Jones is one of the nation's top experts on voting-machine technology. He discovered the irregularities during an inspection of the county's vote-tabulation machinery late last month.

"These problems," Jones says in an interview, "suggest a systemic problem with election administration" in Maricopa County and a failure by the state to properly oversee the county's handling of elections.

http://www.votetrustusa.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=750&Itemid=84

Apparently, there are people in Maricopa County who do know this.

Tri-partisan Coalition Denounces Illegal Vote-Counting in Maricopa County

Democrats, Republicans, and Libertarians Unite for Citizen Oversight of Elections

< PHOENIX, AZ> -- Several Arizona Legislators and a tri-partisan citizens’ coalition will present an official complaint alleging use of illegal vote-counting software and obstruction of citizen observation rights by the Maricopa Elections Department in a press conference Monday, February 4th, at 12:30 pm on the Arizona Senate lawn.

The Arizona Election Transparency Project will support allegations that the Maricopa Elections Department and vendor Sequoia Voting Systems have illegally been using uncertified ballot programming software to conduct county elections with legal and technical investigatory documentation distributed to the press.

Copies of a sweeping public records request to be served on the Maricopa County Elections Department today will also be distributed to the press, political parties, and the public.

Sequoia Voting Systems is the manufacturer of the computerized election equipment used in Maricopa. Recent revelations by a former Sequoia employee, corroborated by technical examination reports commissioned by the States of California and Pennsylvania, show that an entire subsection of the Sequoia product line known as the Ballot Preparation Software (“BPS”) essential to program ballot definitions in elections, was fraudulently withheld from mandatory certification review at the federal and state levels.

http://electiondefensealliance.org/illegal_vote_counting_maricopa_county#ixzz0mHkZF1eD


It looks like there has been some litigation because your attorney general has just opened up the election systems contracts to competition again as of March. His record hasn't been stellar on elections, either, if the Pima County 2006 RTA fiasco is any indication.

http://www.bradblog.com/?cat=70

I used to post the election reform news here once a week. Maricopa County came up often enough.

[saracat]

40. The internet voting was just a test .And BTW, it was years ago and an idea the Democratic Party was

completely behind it. And it wasn't widely available. I hardly remeber but it seems only the dems participated and it was a minor election. I remember I voted by internet because I wanted to. But I had to go to HQ to do so. It was closely monitored , or as closely as they could.

[EFerrari]

42. It was in 2008. n/t

[saracat]

47. It was not. It was 1999. It was at our old HQ

Mark Fleisher was State chair. It was the 2000 presidential Primary. I remember voting at HQ. I still have a T Shirt to commemerate it. We did online voter registration in 2008.

http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract;jsessionid=DBE41C4DE8DACF25D8DB7456D51D44A3.tomcat1?fromPage=online&aid=105429

[EFerrari]

49. Hmm. This is what I find although, I'm glad you have the t-shirt!

Is Internet Voting Safe? Vote Here

* By Kevin Poulsen Email Author
* June 4, 2009 |
* 3:50 pm |
* Categories: E-Voting, Elections, Hacks and Cracks
*

WASHINGTON — Arizona did something very interesting in the 2008 general election: it accepted votes over the internet. Is it a good idea, or not?

Some individual counties have experimented with allowing online voting for overseas citizens, and the Pentagon considered its own system in 2004, before abandoning it because of security issues. But Arizona was the first to offer internet voting, in a national election, to all its overseas military and civilian families through a central website. Election officials demonstrated their system at the Computers, Freedom and Privacy Conference here Thursday, and they seemed pretty confident that it was secure.

“It’s run over a secured system using industry standard encryption,” said state CIO Craig Stender. “We had many users from over 50 countries using the system in that election.”

Read More http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/06/cfp-evote/#ixzz0mHpcMQoS

[saracat]

52. Well, that doesn't seem to be the same kind of internet voting.

Interesting but I actually think, if they could get the safegaurds right, I could see this as viable for expat and military voting. I know you won't agree but I also see the danger.But it really is a cool idea. Maybe someday sufficient safe guards will make this viable.

[tavalon]

15. Of course it will be gotten rid of

But I'm just as pleased as punch that this caused a hornets nest of fury from the left. The right had no idea what they were going to stir up. Perhaps they'll be just a little more careful in the future and not just take it for granted that we will roll over for any stupid ass piece of legislation they decide to vomit up.

[Codeine]

53. Of course you will. You'll have to. you don't have a choice.

A cornerstone of your economy depends on avoiding a boycott.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

55. "We" won't have to. (Unless "we" means the US system)

The law will not survive first-review. I am surprised there hasn't been a preemptive injunction yet.