Did you ever work a union job where there were undocumented workers there?

[NNN0LHI]

I have worked union jobs since I was 16 years old. My first job was as a union stock boy at Jewel Food Store. Then I worked at a union factory for 30 years. I never seen anyone who wasn't a citizen working at these places.

Why do you think that is?

There was nothing to gain by hiring anyone who wasn't a citizen at these union jobs. Except trouble. Had to pay them union scale and benefits regardless. So these unionized employers never had immigration agents coming in looking for undocumented workers there. Because there were none. And they knew that.

Now at the other non-unionized factories around here that was a different story. Raids going on all the time. Every week at some of them. And they always carted someone off.

One thing is constant. If people keep choosing to not unionize and continue scabbing off of someone else, its a guarantee that before long your employer will find someone else to work a little cheaper than you and begin scabbing off of you too. That is a promise.

Don

[Sherman A1]

1. Agreed

[spanone]

2. k&r....

[William Z. Foster]

3. yes, by the hundreds

Detroit, auto factory, decades ago. They were not brown, though - white Canadians, Europeans. This recent immigrant insanity is racism and nothing more.

Still your point is well taken, but we should also not forget that immigrants are organizing and that some of the biggest raids by the feds targeted places where the workers were organizing.

[MellowDem]

30. The recent immigrant insanity is economics, nothing more...

always has been, always will be. Our whole policy is about having cheap labor here. Your case has little to no comparison, considering it was decades ago, when unions were much stronger, and it wasn't part of a larger, constant immigration of hundereds of thousands of Canadians and Europeans coming here every year illegally mostly to work under the table.

Immigrants who are here illegally organizing is just incentive for businesses to deport them.

[William Z. Foster]

39. not sure

Not sure what you are talking about. I answered the question. Your post doesn't make much sense to me.

Yes, it is true that anti-immigration hysteria and hatred and bigotry get whipped up in hard economic times. Is that what you mean when you say it "is economics?"

When you say "our whole policy is about having cheap labor here" who are you referring to? If by "our" you mean the owners, I don't consider myself in that "our." Labor is cheaper overseas than here, and that is where jobs are being moved to.

The bosses are always trying to get the cheapest labor they can. They can hire then same workers cheaper on the other side of the border than they can here.

I don't know what you mean by mentioning "work under the table." That isn't happening in agriculture, and many non-immigrants work under the table.

You are just throwing around prejudicial phrases - "larger, constant immigration of hundreds of thousands" and "coming here every year illegally" and "work under the table." You are trying to raise some specter of hordes of strange, dangerous, criminal and nefarious people invading the country. That promotes and encourages the climate of fear and hatred around this issue.

I think a person would have to be in some serious denial to claim that racism is not animating the anti-immigration hysteria.

Businesses don't deport people. Not sure what this sentence even means - "Immigrants who are here illegally organizing is just incentive for businesses to deport them." Workers organizing is always an incentive for employers to fire them. Is that what you mean?

Why would my case be irrelevant merely because it was in the past, or because "unions were stronger then?"

[Unrepentant Fenian]

4. 20 years as Union Carpenter, never saw one...

But I did see better quality of work, better safety and better work ethics & less drug/alchol abusers as compared to non-union outfits.

[stray cat]

5. I've never seen them in non-union jobs either so what does that prove?

Answer: nothing

[MellowDem]

31. You don't get out much? nt

[BlooInBloo]

6. I wouldn't know. I don't spend a lot of time asking people for their papers.

[Indy Lurker]

7. Youv'e got it backwards.

Underpaid undocumented workers are afraid to unionize, and that's how a lot of companies like it.

[SoCalDem]

10. and when an undocumented worker cuts a finger off, they get taken to and dumped

at an ER, and a "new one" gets hired.

The injured worker fears deportation, so they rarely make a stink over it.. they give a false name & address, get patched up, and recuperate on their own & try to find a new job.

Some bosses also withhold from checks paid to workers, and then never even "send it in"..so it;s a win-win for the boss.. shitty wages and he gets to keep the deductions for himself..

[newtothegame]

22. Wish I could hide from the ER after those bills. nt

[SoCalDem]

25. You "could" if you did not mind the ruined credit & constant phone calls

letters & wage garnishments.

The fact that undocumented people move a LOT, and often do not participate in work that required documentation is what makes them "able".

Of course, given a choice, that guy might prefer to still have his finger:)

[William Z. Foster]

12. actually, you may

Excellent article:

Immigrants
Why Labor Needs to Organize and Defend the Rights of Immigrant Workers
by David Bacon

"Today unions represent about 13% of the U.S. workforce. We have to organize 400,000 workers a year just to stay in the same place. If we want to grow from 13% to 14% -- just 1% -- we have to organize 800,000 workers a year. The executive council just agreed to set a new goal for organizing -- one million workers a year."

...

"We're in a fight to survive, and to survive we must grow. And to grow, we have to ask an important question - which groups of workers want to join unions? What's the track record? If labor intends to organize a million workers a year, who are these workers going to be? Clearly, one group of workers who have been fighting to organize unions are immigrants. In California, a majority of union drives over the last decade have been at least partly based among immigrants. This includes not just campaigns initiated by unions, but many spontaneous strikes and organizing drives initiated by immigrant workers themselves."

http://dbacon.igc.org/Imgrants/26WhyLaborNeedsToDefend.htm

[EFerrari]

35. SEIU organized hotel workers in LA. Worked pretty well there. nt

[whistler162]

8. The jobs you worked only hired citizens!

OKAY!!!!!

You probably, or maybe you didn't, meant citizens or documented aliens!

Unless you are as bigoted and zenophobic as some in Arizona!

[WillyT]

9. Exactly !!! - K & R !!!

:kick:

[Brickbat]

11. Damn straight.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

13. Well, all I can say is they on a job I worked on last summer

there were over 200 workers. Of the people on the job, only about 2o spoke English. This was in Silicon Valley. Make of it what you will.

[NNN0LHI]

14. Which union did you belong to there in Silicon Valley?

[OffWithTheirHeads]

15. Sheet Metal workers Local 104

And for what it's worth, even the jobs I am working on now are manned predominately by Spanish speaking workers. I'm not talking about people with Latin American heritage that are bi-lingual, I'm talking about people who speak no English.

Now, all things being equal, these people work their asses off and I have nothing but respect for them as individuals but, because they are predominantly illegal, they are being exploited. As such, they undermine the rights organized labor has worked for for 100 years. They will work for substandard wages, not take breaks, not charge overtime, not file Workman's comp when they get injured, etc. etc. In short, they are undermining everything the labor movement has gained.

The bottom line is that, until we start throwing their employers in jail, we will have a continuation of the race to the bottom by importing people who are worse off at home than they are here and as long as conditions are so much worse elsewhere, workers will continue to migrate here and erode all of the gains the labor movement has made.

USA! USA!

[NNN0LHI]

17. How do they work for substandard wages?

If they were working under the same union contract as you were working under they would have to receive the same wages and benefits as you did. Wouldn't they?

Were these all union workers you are talking about here?

Something sounds funny about this story.

Don

[lonestarnot]

16. Nope never saw any of the undocumented workers of which you speak.

Nary a one. :shrug:

[MilesColtrane]

18. Never.

There was a thread earlier today with a lot of speculation about why the middle class has been in steep decline.

There was much finger pointing at Starbucks and Blackberry, but almost no recognition that union membership has declined over the past forty plus years.

In 1945 almost 1/3 of the workforce was unionized. Now only about 7% of private sector workers belong to a union.

It's pretty simple really.

[Mojeoux]

19. Very interesting post and thread. Provocitive, relevant, sarcastic, sardonic and sagacious!

Workers of the World Unite! For real, forever!

Never forget the union blood spilled for privileges we take for granted now.

[Union Yes]

20. UAW here. I never saw one cuz our contract banned temp labor or any type of 'day' labor. knr nt

[NNN0LHI]

21. Retired dues paying UAW member in good standing for 37 years here

Local 588.

Don

[old mark]

23. The last union job I worked - which was the job I retired from-was a terrible example.

The unions in that particular state organization were only good for collecting dues and keeping members quiet. The worst example of bought and paid for unions I have ever seen, they were state employees unions under a Democratic administration and there was coverups, prejudice and bullshit all around. I was a steward, and saw some of it from the inside.

m

[Cleita]

24. Immigrants weren't an issue back when I worked in union jobs.

So I don't know. I did work alongside Mexicans and other hispanics. I don't know why this issue flamed into what it is today. As long as the immigrants worked in California and the Southwest no one was concerned. It's when they started spreading to the east and north that all the white people got up in arms about it. Also, many of those northies and easties have retired to the Southwest bringing their bigotry with them.

[William Z. Foster]

26. there is racism implicit in these discussions

How do people "know" whether or not they are looking at an "illegal alien?" How do they know if they have or have not worked alongside an undocumented worker? How can they "see" them?

No one in Detroit talked about "illegal aliens" when the undocumented people were Canadians, Irish, and people displaced in Europe by the war who made their way here. They couldn't "see" them. Now, suddenly, they can "see" so-called "illegal aliens."

[MellowDem]

34. The numbers were not anywhere near the same...

which is why it never became an "issue".

[amandabeech]

38. What was the unemployment rate when you were working in Detroit?

10% or 4%?

Were there many good jobs to be had with bennies, etc.?

I'm from Michigan, and during decent times, jobs weren't hard to find.

Now, obviously, the situation is totally different.

[William Z. Foster]

40. it varies of course

The unemployment rate is volatile in Michigan, always has been.

Not seeing how "the situation is totally different" in regards to immigration, other than the fact that anti-immigrant hatred and racism (scape-goating) increase when times are hard.

There are some Democrats trying to justify joining in on the anti-immigrant bandwagon by using the "they are taking away jobs" or harming unions. That makes their argument sound left wing or progressive.

Blame management, not other workers. Management takes away jobs. Management attacks and tries to destroy unions. Management also tries to set one group of workers against another on various pretexts - race being the main one historically. Management moving jobs out of the country is what has depressed wages and also what has caused the pressure on the border from desperate immigrants.

[amandabeech]

41. People are often much more welcoming to others when they themselves feel secure.

Apparently, you disagree or will not acknowledge that possibility.

You learn fast. You've been here for 50 posts and you already know how to play the DU race card.

For those of us who have been here for some time, that card is just too old.

Adios.

[David Zephyr]

32. +1

Well said.

[MellowDem]

33. AZ passed this law...

so it's not the "Northies and easties", even though you then try to blame it on them moving there, which of course is bigotry in and of itself. Illegal immigration has been a big reason why much of the Southwest has grown at the pace it has economically, and considering that the only people negatively impacted by it is labor and poor people trying to compete for those jobs the illegal immigrants take, there are a lot of people who are for it. It's a net positive for the economy, for the rich, for increased disparities of wealth and for consumers of cheap products.

The influx in illegal immigration over the last few decades is pretty much unprecedented in US history, when the population is bigger than ever and jobs are few and hard to find, which is part of the reason this issue is what it is today.

[Cleita]

36. You are from Ohio.

How do you feel about white immigrants working at your jobs, you know Russians, other eastern Europeans? Are you checking them out too for their immigrant status? I know jobs really have tanked in your states because all the good union jobs went overseas. But blame the right people who did this to you. You might try to find some gippers and look under a few bushes and stop doing a witch hunt.

[MellowDem]

37. I'm not blaming illegal immigrants...

but if you would like to know, hispanics are no doubt the biggest illegal immigrant presence in this state, and most others with major urban areas I would imagine. I blame the companies that hire them, and I blame the corrupt Mexican and American government officials that encourage and profit from it.

It's not where they are coming from so much as the numbers that have changed of illegal immigrants. I'm not advocating for the government to do what they're doing in Arizona. I would rather that the government holds companies more accountable, wherever the illegal immigrants come from that they hired.

There will always be illegal immigration, but right now it is being used as a source of cheap labor for whole industries, not just a company here or there. It hurts American workers in those industries.

On edit: We have a notorious sheriff in my part of Ohio who is advocating the AZ law be used here, because of the large illegal immigrant population around here. But it's not quite on the scale it is in Arizona, so I don't think (am hoping) it won't succeed. But in this economy, tensions over jobs will be high.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[howaboutme]

28. Card check needed.

I'm a strong supporter of card check and of unionization of Americans especially those in the private sector. If Wal-Mart and all the other similar importing retail businesses were unionized it would essentially amount to a huge boost to American wages at the expense of the Chinese and the big retail CEO importers.

Big business greedy billionaire schmucks such as Bernie Marcus of Home Depot who were outraged at the thought of average Americans getting over $10 an hour selling their imported goods should have been the impetus needed to get card check codified. Instead he and his Wall St cronies intimidated Obama and Democrats in Congress to drop the entire idea.

Illegal immigration is about selling out American citizens to the benefit of political hacks and rich big business interests. I do not support the concept or amnesty as a Democratic or progressive concept especially in a time of 15% unemployment and huge debt load.

[adamuu]

29. good point. n/t