Steve Jobs: Adobe Flash is "no longer necessary, and 200,000 apps on Apple's App Store proves it"

[Amerigo Vespucci]

Computerworld - Adobe's Flash is slow, drains batteries, isn't suitable for touchscreen devices and poses security problems, Apple CEO Steve Jobs said in an unusual missive today.

In a lengthy open letter titled "Thoughts on Flash," Jobs spelled out why Apple doesn't allow Adobe's popular technology on its iPhones, iPod Touches and iPads. Jobs' epistle is the latest in the quarrel between Apple and Adobe over Flash, bickering that reached new heights two weeks ago when an Adobe evangelist told Apple to "Go screw yourself."

Jobs' counter: Apple doesn't need Flash.

"Flash is no longer necessary to watch video or consume any kind of Web content," Jobs categorically stated. "And the 200,000 apps on Apple's App Store proves that Flash isn't necessary for tens of thousands of developers to create graphically rich applications, including games."

"This has been the big elephant in the room," said Michael Gartenberg, an analyst with the Altimeter Group. "Jobs has stated very eloquently why Apple doesn't want Flash on its platform. And for the most part, his reasons make sense."

Other analysts agreed. " The letter is unusual, but it's a strong move, leveraging Apple's control of the narrative," said Ezra Gottheil, analyst with Technology Business Research. "The audience is primarily content owners, and secondarily the developer community."

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9176132/Steve_Jobs_trashes_Adobe_s_Flash?taxonomyId=77

[Eric J in MN]

1. There is sometimes a delay between when a video can be played at YouTube...

...on a PC, and when it can be played on an iPhone.

[LoZoccolo]

6. You also won't find official copies of music videos on YouTube through the iPhone app.

If anyone is skeptical, try it and see! Search for a music video on the computer and there's often an official copy put out by the record company. Search again for it on the iPhone and you might see a few copies that fans have put up, but no official copy. I have a few theories about why this is:

1. The offical copy usually is preceded by a commercial, which they don't insert before videos on the YouTube iPhone application.
2. If you could view a high-quality copy of the video, you won't buy it from the iTunes store.
3. Ditto for a high-quality copy of the song itself.

[ShamelessHussy]

102. makes perfect business sense

no other company would do otherwise.

but as long as they don't place any restrictions on web browsing, I have no complaint.

[mike_c]

2. this comes as something of a surprise to me....

First, because I don't own any Apple products-- well, I use iTunes, but I don't own any Apple hardware and never have. Still, it surprises me that the manufacturer of the devices exerts control over the purchasers' use of the platforms that the purchasers now own. Why should Apple limit the applications that users run on their own devices (beyond inherent hardware limitations, of course)? Why would users permit such corporate control post-purchase?

[ShamelessHussy]

103. not when quality control, and delivering a user experience that consistently delights the end user

is paramount.

which their sales record clearly indicates is a formula for huge success.

and this will be good for consumers, too, as it will force the other players to shape up, if they want to compete.

[SpiralHawk]

3. "Oh, that kind of Flash. We were hoping for the other, um, kind." - Family Values Republicons

[EnviroBat]

4. "Flash is no longer necessary to watch video or consume any kind of Web content,"

Sadly, he's wrong about that. Flash may be "going away" but it's content is still prominent on many, many websites and will be for quite awhile.

[cbdo2007]

7. Correct. Rather than adapt to the prominent technology, they are

trying to take the easy way around having to develop for it.

[emulatorloo]

12. "Prominent" technology or outdated techology? Flash not designed for touch devices.

<SNIP>

Flash was designed for PCs using mice, not for touch screens using fingers. For example, many Flash websites rely on “rollovers”, which pop up menus or other elements when the mouse arrow hovers over a specific spot. Apple’s revolutionary multi-touch interface doesn’t use a mouse, and there is no concept of a rollover. Most Flash websites will need to be rewritten to support touch-based devices. If developers need to rewrite their Flash websites, why not use modern technologies like HTML5, CSS and JavaScript?

Even if iPhones, iPods and iPads ran Flash, it would not solve the problem that most Flash websites need to be rewritten to support touch-based devices.

<SNIP>

In addition, Flash has not performed well on mobile devices. We have routinely asked Adobe to show us Flash performing well on a mobile device, any mobile device, for a few years now. We have never seen it. Adobe publicly said that Flash would ship on a smartphone in early 2009, then the second half of 2009, then the first half of 2010, and now they say the second half of 2010. We think it will eventually ship, but we’re glad we didn’t hold our breath. Who knows how it will perform?

[cbdo2007]

15. "touch devices" aren't the technology of the future. They are the mobile

technology which is benefiting from it's current "coolness" factor but doesn't have a useful long term sustaining capability because more and more people will realize how limited they are in so many ways.

I just wrote on the other Apple discussion about how the I-pad isn't the future - it's the cool, trendy item that was meant to be used in addition to two more useful devices - the cell phone and the laptop. Both of which serve their individual function better than the I-pad, which doesn't have a function beyond that of being the new *it* device.

[emulatorloo]

78. iPad isn't trying to be a cell or a computer. It is a different category -- couchtop?

Dunno somebody coined that word.

Take a look at some of the interface demos -- I have a feeling a lot of those ideas about how a device ought to interact with a user are going to be around for a long while. Especially watch the photo one if you get a chance,

http://www.apple.com/ipad/guided-tours/

[ShamelessHussy]

105. exactly, and it is more geared to a consuming audience, than a creative audience

though I have already seen some very cool creative apps as well.

comparing an iPad to a laptop, is apples and oranges. or an betamax to a VHS... sure the pros will get the betamax, but the masses will get VHS.

[ShamelessHussy]

104. actually it is the opposite. as mobile technology becomes more powerful, there use grows

folks find it easier to spend on smart phones, than buying everyone a computer, especially in asia where space is at a premium.

this is not a fad, this is a trend that has been only growing stronger since the introduction of the iPhone.

though, there were very smart folks who said essentially the same thing about the www as well.

[BolivarianHero]

8. Disagree...

I have an iPod touch, and all I use it for is music because if I want to watch hockey or one of my Big Bang Theory reruns on the shitter, I can't because of the lack of flash. I can't even watch video on the CBC website because they use Flash. I don't know what fucking planet Jobber is living on.

[Confusious]

96. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ world

He's pushing a format that will give apple money from licenses.

[Touchdown]

13. Your talking upside down world.

It's Adobe's job to make their plug in compatible with OSX, not Apple's to make their OS play nice with a plug in.

[no limit]

21. Flash works perfectly fine on OSX. Since iPad OS isn't open source Adobe can't do anything about it

especially since Adobe decides what applications can be published and which can't.

[Touchdown]

22. Wrong.

iPhone OS is OSX, and Adobe has had access to it since 2006 when it was being developed.

[Lance_Boyle]

28. No, I'm afraid you are wrong on this one. Iphone OS is decidedly NOT OSX.

One is a desktop operating system and the other is a mobile operating system.

They are about as related as Windows XP and Windows CE were.

[Touchdown]

31. Don't be afraid, just look it up before you call me wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPhone_OS

"iPhone OS is a mobile operating system developed and marketed by Apple Inc. It is the default operating system of the iPhone, the iPod Touch, and the iPad.

It is derived from Mac OS X, with which it shares the Darwin foundation, and is therefore a Unix-like operating system by nature. iPhone OS has four abstraction layers: the Core OS layer, the Core Services layer, the Media layer, and the Cocoa Touch layer. The operating system uses less than 500 megabytes of the device's storage.<3>"

[Lance_Boyle]

52. 'derived from' != 'same as'

The iPhone is incapable of running OSX.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Amerigo Vespucci]

23. I recently developed a website for a client...

...and while I tend to use Flash tastefully AND sparingly, in this situation, the site cried out for Flash. It's a Japanese restaurant with two locations, and they wanted a "front door" page so that people could click on either location and they would go into a separate Website (menus are different at each location).

Came up with something simple and elegant that loaded QUICKLY and the client LOVED it.

Then they called me back and said "It's not working on my iPhone."

So we killed it and went to a straight HTML page.

So yeah, the world is slightly bigger than Steve Jobs and his Apple Apps Store.

:patriot:

[no limit]

5. The only problem Jobs has with Flash is it would compete with their own distribution

making up bullshit doesn't change that fact.

[NoNothing]

9. Bingo

Apple is nothing more than a big bully who wants to prevent apps for their devices from running on other devices too.

[emulatorloo]

14. "Adobe publicly said that Flash would ship on a smartphone in early 2009, then the second half of

<SNIP>

In addition, Flash has not performed well on mobile devices. We have routinely asked Adobe to show us Flash performing well on a mobile device, any mobile device, for a few years now. We have never seen it. Adobe publicly said that Flash would ship on a smartphone in early 2009, then the second half of 2009, then the first half of 2010, and now they say the second half of 2010. We think it will eventually ship, but we’re glad we didn’t hold our breath. Who knows how it will perform?

<SNIP>

TOUCH

Fifth, there’s Touch.

Flash was designed for PCs using mice, not for touch screens using fingers. For example, many Flash websites rely on “rollovers”, which pop up menus or other elements when the mouse arrow hovers over a specific spot. Apple’s revolutionary multi-touch interface doesn’t use a mouse, and there is no concept of a rollover. Most Flash websites will need to be rewritten to support touch-based devices. If developers need to rewrite their Flash websites, why not use modern technologies like HTML5, CSS and JavaScript?

Even if iPhones, iPods and iPads ran Flash, it would not solve the problem that most Flash websites need to be rewritten to support touch-based devices.

[NoNothing]

16. It wouldn't matter what Adobe does

He's said he wouldn't allow flash under any circumstances, even if it Adobe fixed all issues.

Not only that, but he won't even allow apps *written* in flash but *compiled* to iPhone native apps. There's no technical justification for that.

Like I said, he's a bully.

[ShamelessHussy]

107. WRONG - he said what they could do - USE STANDARDS BASED, OPEN SOURCE LANGUAGES

HTML/CSS/JS

Adobe makes dev tools, they should focus on that, NOT making proprietary frameworks that only they control.

[no limit]

20. Not ture. Apples Flash implimantation can address mouse-over effects/functions

this would not be up to each author to do, it would be up to apple. And its a problem that's easily overcome.

[Touchdown]

30. Total load of crap! It's not Apple's job to adress Flash issues at all.

It's all on Adobe, which they have been loathe to do, or do it well up to this point.

[no limit]

33. It's not an issue with flash. You dont seem to have an understanding of this,

without that understanding dont accuse someone that does of spewing crap.

It is up to the device implementing flash to decide how it will deal with roll overs, and apple would have to do that. Once they did that all flash sites would work as they should, without the author of the flash file having to touch anything. Now if Apple wants to open up their source code to Adobe I'm sure Adobe would be more than happy to address this for them.

[Touchdown]

39. It is an issue with Flash. Read the damn article.

It's always been an issue with Adobe being slow to adopt OSX, and develop properly for it. Flash does not work as well on it as it does Windows platforms, and never has.

Adobe has always had full, infettered access to Apple's OSX/iPhoneOS code. Read the article... Yes, you are spewing crap.

Again, it's not the OS maker's job to make their OS compatible with a plug in. It's the Plug in developer's job to make it compatible with that OS. Flash is not "THE INTERNET", it's nothing more than a plug in.

[no limit]

47. Flash runs on OSX, contrary to your suggestion

how well it runs I dont know, I dont use macs because Im not made of money.

I did read the article. It doesnt say that Adobe had full access to their code. In fact what is says when Adobe made a cross compiler for Flash to work with iPod Apple banned any application made with that cross-compiler. Why? Why would apple decide that users shouldn't even have the option of downloading these apps?

[Touchdown]

53. I know that.

Reading comprehension limits?

I have a Mac. I blocked it because it was eating up too much processes when I was browsing. Found I can live without it at home, so why would I need it on my phone?

Why? Because when an app, or plug in is bogging a system down, even if it's converted from a plug in (flash) the hardware maker/OS maker gets the blame for it. Apple's biggest selling points are ease of use and speed. If Flash cuts the speed down, and makes the OS prone to crash, like it's responsible for 90% of OSX crashes now, then Apple gets blamed for it, not Adobe. So even a cross-compiler isn't as good as native code, which in the end is to the app maker's advantage because they just wrote a more stable piece of software. Apple is tired of carrying Adobe's water.

[no limit]

56. Well see, you are right, Apple will be blamed for this

When Android is able to open any multimedia site, wether it be MSNBC, LaLa, youporn, or whatever else floats your boat and Apple devices simply can't yes, Apple will be blamed for it.

Apple could have decided to put a disclaimer on all those apps that they are not responsible and these apps might not run as well. They didn't do that, they banned it all together without even giving the user the choice. Why? I think its because they dont like the competition. And unless you have a better explaination...

[Touchdown]

58. "I think its because they dont like the competition."

Judging by how emotionally invested in Apple's existence, and that the world will be beautiful if they were just destroyed, I don't doubt you think the worst of them in any issue. So it's only logical that you think the worst, and ignore any evidence to the contrary, because it doesn't fit your "Apple is the Spanish Inquisition!" narrative.

[no limit]

61. Why did they not give users the option to use cross compiled flash apps?

They could have put up a disclaimer to address what you said, they didn't. They simply decided they would ban all these apps. Why?

What do you think will happen when Android can view all those things I mentioned and Apple simply can't?

[Touchdown]

65. Because the user would blame Apple for their phone crashing

instead of the real culprit, which is buggy plug in software. As a Telecom worker, you can't play games with someone's phone service. Universal 911 accessability is a law that has to be abided by, and Flash will just have to live with that fact. If a game app refuses to close so the phone can't be gotten to in an emergency, and someone get's seriously hurt because of it, Adobe isn't going to feel any pinch of responsibility at all.

[no limit]

68. Again, thats what the disclaimer is for.

And google seems ok taking that responsibility. Why? are they stupid?

[Touchdown]

74. Disclaimers.

:rofl:

It ain't gong to happen. There WILL BE NO FLASH ON APPLE MOBILE DEVICES, and since iPhone is one of the top phones, and iPad outsold iPhone's first month sales.... Nobody but you cares about it!

[no limit]

80. You are so wrong you dont even know. Wait till people find out they can stream porn on android

it will burry the iphone. I promise you.

And again, google isn't worried about lawsuits, so I dont think apple is either. They simply want to eliminate the competition.

[Touchdown]

84. I got porn on my phone already.

Most porn sites I've seen are either WMV, QT or iTunes. Any of these is easily converted to any other with the right software and 5 minutes of training. Since porno is so easy to get, nobody is going to miss that one BJ scene if it's only in Flash. They'll just move on to another vid. What we care more about is picture quality nowdays. Pixel per pixel, megabit for megabit, all 3 of those formats have a much better PQ than Flash does.

There isn't any competition if Adobe isn't making phones or tablet computers. Stop making shit up.

And I'll tell you Saturday whether or not iTunes can do files of play lists on the iPad. I pick up a 3G Tomorrow night.

[no limit]

85. Lol, yeah. Because now that you have internet streaming your average user is gonna wanna convert

Do you still use a cassette player? It's just not the same thing. And flash can have just as good if not better picture quality. It is perfectly capable of streaming video up to 1080p.

Yes, there is competition. The competition is in the distribution. Apple wants to control the distribution market on their devices because of the huge revenue involved in that. Flash competes with that.

Remember, Im talking about playlist folders, not simple playlists. If it finally does that then great, hopefully I'll be able to do it on my iTouch. But I wouldn't hold your breath.

[Touchdown]

93. You really have a comprehension problem, don't you?

I didn't say Flash video wasn't capable of high quality pictures. I said that mb for mb the others are better at it. In other words, the file size of a QT movie is much smaller than a Flash embedded one, if the picture quality is no different. Streaming in QT is easy and painless. WMV requires Flip4Mac or some other convert sw because MS does't make it for OSX anymore, but it isn't that bad, really. Neither use as much processes or RAM as running a Flash video. For a Windows or Mac that's plugged into a wall, no problem. On a portable device with a finite amount of battery life, it's could be the difference between 10 hours (QT/WMV) and 4-6(Flash). I see this in Photoshop all the time. Adobe's software (even Acrobat) has to install itself all over the HDD, and using PS is very process heavy, because it has to jump around and access the HDD for this little bit in utilities and that in applications. Again, fine for a computer plugged into a wall, but not a good idea for a battery operated one.

You do realize that their iTunes and App store revenues are a fraction of their hardware sales numbers. I'm doing this from memory, but IIRC, iTunes/App store revenues are something like <15% of Apple's total revenue. Certainly respectable, but hardly the main revenue stream. Mac software is slightly higher. Hardware is by far the largest with something like 60% of revenue. If they thought for a minute that they would have a significant drop in sales of the 60% category by banning a popular web plug in, just to help out the less than 15% section, then they wouldn't do it. I'm still convinced the reason is about user experience, and Flash would make that experience less than a sure thing.

On iTunes folders. Yeah, I played with it last night. Never did one, but I see it's got a good use. I'll look for it on the iPad, but i doubt it'll be available for the touch. I'm told that the iPad sports an actual touch version of iTunes as opposed to an iPod app like the phone/touch. It may be different.

[no limit]

128. I don't know how you could be making such a comparisson

Flash is able to stream many different video formats including H.264. So the quality you get Lb for Lb will depend on the compression you decide to use. Since from what I understand quicktime is also H.264 I don't know how you could say that quicktime is better when it is using the exact same compression scheme as flash.

And you seem to totally minimize the revenue stream involved in the distribution without understanding it's implications. iTunes generated apple almost 2 billion dollars in sales in 2009. This is just selling songs and apps. You might have heard of a new scheme apple is going to be doing, which is selling advertising space on apps. This has a giant revenue potential, ask Google if you don't believe.

Now you make a point that apple wouldn't want to do this if they thought the revenue from distribution would then lower the revenue from hardware sales. But they made the calculation that loyal apple fans and their marketing team will be able to overcome that, and they are probably right. I mean look at you, you are sitting here bashing Flash because Jobs told you to. You still haven't explained why Jobs lying about Flash was okay.

[Touchdown]

132. Actually I never thought about Flash until this blew up in January.

I knew it existed, but didn't know what it did, and did badly. Then took the time and I learned about it. But I could accuse you of the same thing... repeating Adobe's talking points, because they were the first ones to accuse Apple of shutting them out because of the App Store, and then the meme spread as if Sarah Palin yelled it on Facebook.

I see a lot of Adobe's arguments extremely self serving and very few of Apple's doing the same. You see the opposite.

Flash is a software overlay. It sits in between the content and the hardware. h.264 is a video codec. Quicktime is software that interprets h.264 for the Hardware. Flash simply has more code required to provide that video than QT requires. It's like miles per gallon. QT is efficient, Flash is a data hog.

$2 Billion is a lot money. But only a fraction of the $40 Billion in cash that Apple has on hand. It really comes down on who to believe. One giant hardware maker with a proprietary OS and stringent rules and an image to protect, or a software behemoth with a proprietary internet plug in and a conference/workshop/training revenue stream in excess of a $500 million a year.

[no limit]

134. I'm pretty sure Flash uses hardware overlay just like quicktime or any other player

so your criticism there isn't justified. I dont know of any evidance that flash isn't just as efficient at streaming h.264 video. I still dont understand how you would say one quality is better than the other pound for pound when both use the same compression.

I am not using single Adobe talking points, I am going off what I know. What I do know is that Steve Jobs lied and misrepresented the facts.

Yes, 2 billion is a shit load of money. That's not 2 billion total, that's 2 billion annually. So comparing it to their bank account isn't exactly fair, you have to compare it to their actual annual revenues and Im too lazy to do that right now. Bottom line being when a company is getting 2 billion in sales just off music, videos, and apps then they wont want to give that up. More so now that they will be running advertisements in apps.

[Touchdown]

146. And so we're back to the beginning

I say you need to prove that he lied, you say you have, even though I see no evidence of that, and you are not using Adobe talking points, but what you are saying is frighteningly close to a verbatim Adobe press release, and then there's the selling ads in the apps.

You know what makes me skeptical of all of this faux outrage? It's the phoniness and double standards. Google has been selling ad space in Android apps for a year. Apple comes up with their own adaptation of that very same thing, and now they're big brother taking over the world. Google says they'll allow Flash on their mobile platform, but as of yet, they haven't, and there's quite a few people in this thread that are under the mistaken impression that it's already there. Then there's the folks telling us all about Macs and Apple (The DRM thing, video can't be in iTunes unless it's iTunes bought, no multitasking on Macs... yes some actually believe that. the list of stupidity goes on), when they've never even touched a Mac, much less studied how they work. So it's not a matter of defending a religious guru. It's a matter of not letting lies stand as lies.

Who's more the cult member? The one who laughs and wears a shirt, having fun with being called a cult member, or the Windows ultra-fan, who never fails to accuse others of cult membership and weighs in on every OS wars thread DU has to offer, but spread misinformation about a computer system they know nothing about, and act very cult member-like in their parroting the line that others are "cult members"? One of them is so thin skinned even has me on ignore because I merely own a Mac and caught him on a lie.

[MadHound]

72. What Mac are you running?

Must be out of the stone age because I run an eMac and have no problems with Flash whatsoever. Perhaps it is your personal computer that is the problem, and not Macs in general or Flash:shrug:

[Touchdown]

76. Check your process monitor. You'll see how much juice it's eating...

even if your no longer on that site, or running that video. I have a fairly new 24" iMac about 8 months old. Flash didn't kill my system, but it slowed it down enough for me to notice how much faster browsing is when it's blocked.

[ShamelessHussy]

109. "It is up to the device implementing flash to decide" - it is not 'implementing' flash

but your right on 1 count. it is up to the device as to what technology to support. and it is up to the software developers to implement software that the device supports.

thats how it's always been.

and steve even told them how they could do that, develop software that uses open-soure, standards based code, HTML/CSS/JS. what more do they want? apple to write it for them?

[no limit]

130. You cant stream video or play games using HTML/CSS/JS

And again, even if adobe is writing the app for apple they would do it on the plugin level so saying the flash developers would need to change their apps is totally wrong.

[ShamelessHussy]

131. nonsense - i just posted a bunch of links to folks doing exactly that

and sorry, folks need to code to the platform, not the other way around.

[no limit]

133. No, not nonesense. Give me the code that will make HTML stream video. I'm dying to see it

give me code that will allow you to play games such as bubble spinner or bloons tower defense.

You can't, because such code doesn't exist.

[ShamelessHussy]

136. Youtube, Google, JustinTV, among others already do it, and on the iPhone/Touch/Pad to boot

and there are TONS of awesome games on the iPhone, not to mention some cool HTML/CSS/JS games being developed right now.

http://www.kesiev.com/akihabara /
http://www.effectgames.com/effect /
http://www.dextrose.com/en/projects/aves-engine
http://techcrunch.com/2010/04/01/google-html5-quake

Microsoft playing HTML 5 standards game alongside Silverlight game
http://www.itwriting.com/blog/2365-microsoft-playing-html-5-standards-game-alongside-silverlight-game.html

and this is just the beginning ;)

psst... pass the word


BTW: Check out my new button tool done only with HTML/CSS
http://dvia.com/buttonMaker

[no limit]

138. A button maker using JS is not quite bubble spinner

And don't get me wrong, I appreciate anyone with JS/Ajax skills and that took quite a bit of skill to do; but this can not replace what Flash has to offer.

Your quake link isn't working, I wanted to see that. The effectgames is cool, but painfully slow. The galaxy demo took 5 minutes for me to load, and I don't think the server was running slow. Does it support hardware acceleration?

Very cool either way.

[ShamelessHussy]

139. true - and i only use javascript to set the css - but i posted links to games (fixed)

so far only Microsoft has hardware acceleration for javascript built into their new browser (IE9) but javascript with HTML5 canvas is very fast.

I also write Flash actionscript code...
http://dvia.com
(click on the 2.0 badge after the animation)

but I would prefer to not have to keep up with so many languages, and is why I support the push towards HTML/CSS/JS and I love adobe dev tools and can't wait till they give complete support to them in future releasees, that way no one could block them from their platform as the web truly is ubiquitous.

BTW: thanks for the kind words :toast:

[no limit]

141. I haven't seen what you have posted yet, and I am very impressed with it

wish the quake link was working, I'll try it later.

But if the games you posted can really be run using nothing more than JS and HTML that would be awesome, I just don't think that will be the case for a long while longer. If W3C finally recommends HTML5 later this year I don't think we will be fully using it for close to another decade based on history.

[emulatorloo]

10. Read the full piece, much of what he says makes sense.

LAPTOP MAGAZINE
Steve Jobs on Flash: It’s No Longer Necessary
April 29th, 2010 by Marc Flores

http://blog.laptopmag.com/steve-jobs-on-flash-its-no-longer-necessary

After falling under so much criticism for the lack of Flash on Apple’s mobile devices, Steve Jobs finally sets the story straight. In a nutshell, Jobs says Flash is history and soon to be a relic of the past. The future is moving toward HTML5, CSS, and JavaScript and Adobe is hanging onto everything it can to make Flash relevant. Apple is thinking ahead while Adobe is trying to drag everyone backwards.

For every argument there was for Flash, Jobs had a concise and compelling retort. Is Adobe’s Flash really open? No, it’s completely proprietary. What about true or “full” web experiences necessitating Flash? Jobs insists that there are plenty of games and video formats supported by content producers, as well as Apple, that don’t require it. Flash isn’t stable and secure: it is the single most reason for why Macs crash, and apparently Adobe has been unable to fix it despite its work with Apple. Flash was designed for PCs and mice where cursor rollovers are often critical to navigation – impossible to do as it currently stands with touchscreen devices.

See below for the full release from Steve Jobs while we sit here and wait patiently for Adobe’s official response.

<FULL PIECE FROM JOBS AT LINK>

[no limit]

17. You can't stream video using HTML/Javascript. You never will be able to

You also can't do many of the flash based games.

He wants all this done through apps, so that apple can control the distribution. Flash is open source as far as development goes and would compete with what they do.

[Lance_Boyle]

29. HTML5 will have that capability. n/t

[no limit]

32. HTML5 does not set a standard video format, so it will still require some kind of client program

Whats nice about flash is it doesnt matter what the video format was on the client side.

Not to mention it doesn't even have W3C recommendation and wont till the end of this year. That means websites using HTML5 are probably a decade away.

[Touchdown]

42. h264 is the HTML5 standard video codec.

:eyes:

[no limit]

44. There is no set video codec at this time. h264 is certainly propsed but nothing is set

so roll your eyes all you want, buy you might want to read up on it first.

[Touchdown]

48. It's the one most supporters are narrowing down to.

I did read up on it, but not from an angle like yours. I wasn't looking for a loophole to bash Apple for not including flash compatibility in their mobile devices. I was actually reading facts.

[no limit]

51. Well I was stating facts. Currently there is no standard. And you said my facts were wrong

Especially since I do web development for a living, so you would think I would know a bit about the issue. So sorry if you calling me arrogant makes me a bit defensive.

[Touchdown]

57. I read this, and this does not say "Currently no standard"

"You can't stream video using HTML/Javascript. You never will be able to"

Credential dropping is about as vaulable as a virtual hamburger ordered on the internet. I work for a large Telecom company. I work with a lot of people who don't know much about phone networks.

But, thanks for letting me know what you do for a living. Your obsession with this issue and hatred of Apple can only lead me to believe that you are a Flash developer, and are resistant to learn anything else. Most of the "No Flash" criers out there have been Flash developers.

But then again... I could be wrong. As wrong as I apparently was when I asked you for proof, and you dropped your career resume on me instead.

[no limit]

60. Lol. You know what they say about assuming, right? I hate flash web sites

and always advise against them. But that doesn't mean I think Flash has no place.

And what I said is dead on. Again, HTML is not streaming the video, it is embedding a video which we don't know the format of yet and whatever that format turns out to be alot of it will be client dependent.

[Touchdown]

63. Yeah, it makes an Ass out of U and Umption.

So what?

[no limit]

64. Just pointing out your assumption about me is totally wrong.

:toast:

[ShamelessHussy]

111. yet. there hasn't been a single codec chosen, however, there is already support for a few today

that modern browsers already support, the problem is that they are all proprietary just like flash.

however, once one is picked (and there is a rumor that google is about to open source a codec they just purchased) it will be adopted overnight.

and once Microsoft's next browser comes out sometime this year, there will be support for HTML5 in ALL major browsers.

Adobe needs to get with the program, and simply add support for standards based, open source technology to their dev tools, instead of trying to monopolize a key part of the web, VIDEO.

it's really that simple.

[no limit]

135. How can HTML5 be in all major browsers when the standard hasn't been finalized yet?

So no, it's really not that simple.

[ShamelessHussy]

140. once IE9 is released later this year, it will be - Safari, Chrome, Firefox, Opera, and IE

though the standard hasn't been finalized, it is mostly complete, and vendors are free to implement the features at their leisure.

Microsoft IE9 developer preview with HTML5 support ready for download
http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=5572

Microsoft says HTML5 is the future of the web
http://www.tgdaily.com/software-features/49592-microsoft-says-html5-is-the-future-of-the-web

Internet Explorer 9 HTML5 video will only support H.264; swivel on it, Ogg and Adobe
http://www.downloadsquad.com/2010/04/30/internet-explorer-9-html5-video-will-only-support-h-264-swivel/

Google to open-source YouTube's video codec, may end HTML5 video war
http://www.downloadsquad.com/2010/04/13/google-to-open-source-youtubes-video-codec-may-end-html5-video/

[Xithras]

148. It will be interesting to see if Google can displace H.264

I certainly hope so, as H.264 is a proprietary and patented format, and VP8 will end up being open sourced for everyone to use.

The downside, of course, is that the MPEG LA group has already announced their intention to start collecting royalties from H.264 end users in 2016. MPEG LA represents the licensing interests of the H.264 patent rights holders. Who are those rights holders? Qualcomm, Samsung, IBM, Microsoft, and a number of others. All of THOSE companies have a vested interest in turning H.264 into the ONLY online video standard, because it will help their bottom lines after 2016 (MS has already announced that H.264 will be the only video format natively supported in IE9).

H.264 is baaaad mojo. We were going to implement an H.264 streaming service at work, but scrapped the idea after discovering that their confusing licensing terms would result in anywhere from $5,000 to $25,000 in annual licensing fees (depending on how they viewed our "use"). Even worse, under the licensing model they would have preferred to enforce, we would have been violating the law to implement it (they wanted a revenue percentage, which is problematic when you're a taxpayer funded college).

Also, keep in mind that Firefox doesn't support the H.264 format without a third party plugin and, according to its developers, it never will. Why not? Because MPEG LA demanded astronomical licensing fees from Mozilla to enable legal H.264 support, and Mozilla has refused to pay them. Mozilla's project leaders posted some high profile attacks against YouTue and Vimeo regarding their announcements of their intentions to implement H.264 only architectures, and the serious problems that these closed, licensed, and proprietary formats present to the Open Source movement. H.264 content is only viewable on Firefox if you have Flash or another H.264 supporting plugin installed (Adobe pays MPEG LA large licensing fees to enable H.264 support in the Flash plugin). If Apple and the other heavyweights win this argument and media plugins are eliminated from the market, only the closed commercial browsers will be able to support online streaming.

[ShamelessHussy]

110. WRONG - Youtube, Google, JustinTV, among others already do it, and on an iPhone/Touch/Pad to boot

and there are TONS of awesome games on the iPhone, not to mention some cool HTML/CSS/JS games being developed right now.

http://www.kesiev.com/akihabara/
http://www.effectgames.com/effect/
http://www.dextrose.com/en/projects/aves-engine
http://techcrunch.com/2010/04/01/google-html5-quake/
http://www.itwriting.com/blog/2365-microsoft-playing-html-5-standards-game-alongside-silverlight-game.html

psst... pass the word ;)

[no limit]

137. Can you get Lala on your iphone? No?

Can you get addicting games on your iPhone? No?

Just because other things exist doesn't excuse the fact that all these other things, part of the standard internet, don't. And it will boil down to Android having these things and apple not having them.

[Touchdown]

11. Prove that.

"Making bullshit up" Indeed. Don't give me the "Look at the logic" bullshit. Show me verifiable FACTS that Apple is doing this because they own an iTunes store.

Weren't you asked why you were so hostile and agressive towards Apple in another thread, and you said you weren't? That's what I thought.

[no limit]

18. What is there to prove? They won't have flash, they can make as many excuses as they want

but the bottom line is it competes with what they do.

If it really has to do with what he lays out make Flash optional, but atleast give us that option.

[Touchdown]

24. So you admit you have nothing. That your just blowing it out of your ass

... to prove your cleverness. As long as we get it.

[no limit]

35. No, you are arrogant on this issue and you have no clue as to what you are talking about

Flash directly competes with Apple's distribution. What Jobs wrote is bullshit, I could go line by line if you'd like. So knowing that there has to be another reason Apple is so against offering Flash support, since it competes with Apple's distrubtion thats the only logical conclusion you can make unless they give us a better explaination.

[Touchdown]

40. Well, the do it! Go line by line, and prove Jobs is lying through his teeth and full of shit.

That you... not owner or CEO of any tech company in the Forbes 500, knows more about his products that he does. I told you I want facts, not your "Jobs is Evil and full of shit" conspiratorial hatred coloring your "logic".

I'm waiting...

[no limit]

50. I already gave you a number of them

First off the lack of mouse over on the iPods can be easily corrected at the plugin level without breaking any existing applications. You haven't refuted that yet, and you want me to waste more of my time?

Let me give you another one real quick. Google has demonstrated full flash 10 support on their android 2.2 platform. So when Jobs says Apple has never demonstrated such capability running smoothly on portable devices he is lying.

[ShamelessHussy]

106. there is nothing wrong with protecting your business, but they also support HTML/CSS/JS - STANDARDS

open standards, which is more beneficial to us all.

and, as a web developer, it is one less technology I have to keep up with, which ALWAYS get's my vote :P

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

19. You know what's no longer necessary?

Paying way too much for a flashy name brand toy when something else can do the same thing for a fraction of the price.

[Touchdown]

25. When that thing is available and has no Windows or Linux in it, let me know.

:hi:

[no limit]

36. Lol, whats wrong with linux?

[Touchdown]

41. Libertarian Fen-Phen/tainted meat paradise of YOYO.

Not for me.

[no limit]

43. I have no idea what that means. huh?

[Touchdown]

46. I don't doubt it.

[no limit]

49. Not a good explaination on your part, doesn't suprise me.

Google of Fen-Phen revleas a dietry pill. What that has to do with Linux I have no clue. And if you can't be bothered to explain to all us idiots then don't. Unix has been the most reliable platform for developers for decades. Linux is totally open source and virtually anything can be done with it.

So your jibberish and lack of explaination doesn't change that fact (even if you think you are smarter than everyone else).

[Touchdown]

59. Unsafe drugs, unsafe meat, unsafe drinking water, unsafe software.

Libertarian paradise. "Open source" is nothing more than YOYO (You're On Your Own).

[no limit]

62. You think that open source makes linux unsafe? You can't be serious

I guess you think Windows is the most secure OS around?

And no, you are not on your own when android comes in to play. Google fully supports that. So another assertion on your part that is simply not true.

[Touchdown]

66. I said nothing about Android. I was responding to a snarky remark from an Apple hater.

... who thinks people are stupid for buying BMWs when Yugos is just as good and "cheaper".

[no limit]

69. No, your shot was aimed directly at Android which is based on a modded linux kernel

So your assertion that it offers no support is absolutely wrong.

Your next assertion that linux isn't safe because it is open source is also totally wrong. And Im usually the last guy to defend linux since I love Windows, but unlike you I give credit where credit is due.

[Touchdown]

73. I aimed directly at Android, huh?

I had no idea that I did that, since I just learned it was based on Linux.. but I got aim. Okeyfine.:eyes:

[no limit]

81. Well.

The person you responded to made the point that there are now a bunch of these devices out there. The big competitor being android which is based on linux. So I assumed you were talking about android, guess I probably shouldn't have done that after just telling you not to assume. ;-)

[Name removed]

98. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[backscatter712]

113. And Microsoft or Apple protects you?

Oh wait, they protect their fellow corporate buddies from you using obnoxious shit like DRM. As for protecting you? From viruses? From malware? From the bugs in their own software? :rofl:

If you want support, there's plenty of businesses that will provide support, and you're not dependent on any of them. If you don't like one Linux distro, switch to a different one. If you don't like one support company, switch to a different one. Or find some IT talent of your own and get under the hood yourself.

[Name removed]

114. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[backscatter712]

120. If Linux is an "Ayn Rand Utopia", so is Microsoft and Apple.

You think that taxes pay for Windows, OS X and the iPhone OS? No. You're in that YOYO objectivist Somalia-land when you use Windows and Apple products - they're businesses, not governments, and they look out for their own interests, which are far from aligned with your interests. I don't have problems with the technical features of OS X - it's a fine OS, and I haven't had problems with it, but don't tell me that Linux is inherently unsafe.

The model that Linux and other open-source software uses is based on the scientific community's model of open disclosure of research followed by peer review. And that model works - when there's bugs and security issues with Linux, they get fixed. That's why Apple uses open-source software - the Darwin kernel that's at the core of OS X and the iPhone is open-source. Google uses and contributes plenty of open-source software. Just about everyone uses Firefox - that's open source. Safari's built on top of open-source libraries.

Oh, Apple not using DRM? They lock down their iPhones so you can only buy apps from their store, and they get to choose what apps show up in their store. They lock down their phones so they can only be used on AT&T's cell network. If you want an iPhone on T-Mobile or somewhere else, tough. You have to pay extra, or have some skills in technical dirty tricks, to liberate your iPhone from Apple's dictates, and be careful not to brick it...

[Touchdown]

147. I see you can't handle anyone disagreeing with you.

Getting posts deleted which violate no rules, only that you don't like them.

Have a nice day in your fantasy world!:hi:

[backscatter712]

151. Last refuge of those who've run out of arguments - whining about the moderation.

I didn't alert on you - I just posted a refutation.

[Touchdown]

153. Nah' I'm not quite out of arguments...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8248068

[backscatter712]

112. Y'know, the analogy just doesn't fit.

Linux has performed admirably in the desktop, server and smartphone realms for years. Stable, high-quality software. Modern distros like Ubuntu are as easy to set up and use as Windows (actually, easier - I've found Windows to be a royal pain in the ass to install, while Linux has been far more painless for me.) Boots faster, doesn't crash, has all sorts of software from office suites to databases to development tools to games to media players to Internet software at my fingertips.

Detractors of Linux and open source software have called it everything from loony-libertarian to communist, but I use it and think it's great! Don't knock it till you've tried it.

[hunter]

67. Linux/Unix is forever.

Everything else gets old and dies.

[BootinUp]

26. lol nt

[LanternWaste]

37. Yup... good stuff.

Yup... good stuff.

[shedevil69taz]

27. Good thing I will never own an Apple product.

Does anyone know if flash works on a Droid?

[Xithras]

34. What will Apple do when Android gets Flash support?

Google has already developed, tested, and demonstrated Android 2.2 with full Flash 10 support. When all of the FaceBookers realize that they can play their Farmville and watch video from any site on the Android, while Apple rails about "bad technology", Jobs is going to find himself is a very untenable position. When the Dell Streak is released in June (and iPad-like touchscreen tablet running Android aimed directly at attacking Apple and the iPad market), and Dell can advertise that THEIR device will run ALL web content, while the iPad is excluded from streaming 95% of the multimedia content on the Internet, Apple is going to be fighting hard to keep themselves positioned as the "superior" choice.

[Lyric]

54. Yep, exactly.

Facebook is the most popular social website, period. And all those addictive Zynga Facebook games that people spend SO much time playing are Flash games, not to mention all the other insanely popular media sites that require Flash to function. Apple's cutting off their company's own nose to spite its face, and they're too in love with themselves to notice. Of course, the die-hard Applebots will never, ever admit any such thing. They'll still be defending this short-sighted stupidity when Apple has run itself right out of the serious market and becomes a fanboy niche again. If I have learned one thing in my life, it's this: you needn't bother arguing with True Believers of ANY stripe, because there's nothing, and I mean NOTHING you can say to change their minds. This is why I typically avoid them.

I know of another mega-company that took the same track that Apple seems to be heading down, forcibly inserting themselves in between people and their internet content and trying to profit at every junction along the way. It was called AOL. We all know how THAT story ends. As for me, I like devices that actually function with the internet that's THERE--not the internet that certain corporations think SHOULD be there. Looking forward to getting an Android, here. They're the future--haven't you heard?

:hi:

[emulatorloo]

82. FACEBOOK VIDEO PLAYS ON IPAD AND IPHONE AND IPOD TOUCH - it is h264

This a problem I see in a lot of these threads. A bit fact free.


"We’ve since confirmed this with Facebook which says, “You are correct, this is not html 5. All new videos are encoded in h264 format, so we’re playing videos natively in the iPad since it supports h264-encoded videos.”

Read more: http://techcrunch.com/2010/04/27/facebook-html5-ipad-app/#ixzz0mX10PL62

[Lyric]

86. The games aren't "videos"

:eyes:

Do you have an iPad? Try to load Farmville on it. You can get music videos from dozens of sources, but you can only get Farmville with Flash.

Apple = AOL. You just don't see it yet because you don't want to. That's okay though. I know change can be scary.

Say goodbye to the old, tired, AppleOL past.



Embrace the future.



:hi:

[Touchdown]

94. Farmville is a mouse game. iPhone/iPad is touch.

Android is touch. If Superfarm is available for it, then it's also an app, and not flash. Most all Flash games are mouse driven games, and I don't know of any that are touch enabled.

Superfarm is touch and free, and easily accessed without having to go through FB. And Farmville with it's money taking scam and the lawsuit that might bring the game makers down is such a worthy piece of Americana. Yeah, you keep Farmville. I'll keep Need For Speed: Shift without the snake oil sales ads.

Apple is AOL how? Because you either made or found a silly photoshop that says so, which makes it a given fact now? So if I make a photoshop of myself fucking your wife, does that make it true? Apple Haters are shitty photoshoppers also. That apple in the AOL logo can be done by a 2nd grader.

[AnArmyVeteran]

38. Isn't it all about money because Apple can make more money getting you to buy video

than look at all the free flash stuff out there?

[Touchdown]

45. No, but the Apple haters will say yes.

I can drop any video from any source into iTunes without having to buy it from Apple. Videos are no different than music from CDs or MP3 sources. Have a DVD? Just convert it from it's source of MPEG2 to the iTunes standard which is m4v, and you got it. No need to buy fron Apple.

[AnArmyVeteran]

97. I don't hate Apple. But when surfing & you want to play a flash video Apple won't let you.

You must admit that there is a lot of video content out there and a great deal of it is flash. Apple won't agree to allow flash to play in ipods. I can play m4v, but when surfing you can't convert a flash video to m4v. I have transferred all kinds of videos I downloaded to m4v format and saved them to my video file on my ipod, but as I said, the user is prevented from even viewing flash video from a lot of sites using an ipod. Some of those sites show videos that are also sold at the iTunes store so guess why Apple restricts people from using their ipods to view flash stuff? They do it for the money. If they can sell you a video they have in the store, they will try to prevent you from seeing it for free online. It has nothing to do with Steve Job's claim about battery power, etc. A manufacturer shouldn't be concerned with the power usage by an end user. That's the user's choice. So Job's excuse is lame and has no merit.

I'm one of Apple's biggest fans and was partially responsible for getting my company to go from PCs to Macs. And once Macs were in use then tech support could be reduced by almost 80% because users have far less problems with Macs. Even though Macs are more expensive I find them to be far superior in so many ways. And in a corporate environment's where macs are used, there is increased production because of users aren't constantly having PC related problems. There are exceptions of course, but in all the mac environments I have worked in things seem to go a lot smoother with a minimal need for tech support.

[Lucian]

70. I say Apple is no longer necessary.

It's a relic. It'll fizzle away after people realize the hype is nothing more than that. Hype.

Android is the future.

Edited to add that Apple cheerleaders really annoy me.

[emulatorloo]

75. "It's a relic. It'll fizzle away" LOL. I've been hearing that since about 1984.

[Tesha]

87. So far, Apple's fizzled its way to being the *THIRD-LARGEST AMERICAN CORPORATION*.

Exxon, Microsoft, Apple.

Yeah, it's surely doomed.

It's doomed to soon occupy SECOND place.

I figure it's mostly jealousy that fuels the Apple haters.

Tesha

[Lucian]

90. Jealousy...

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I'm not jealous of anything. I've played around with Apple products. They are nothing but pieces of crap designed for people capable of little thought.

[Touchdown]

95. And it takes a high IQ to post with 3 ROFL laughing smileys.

I bow before your brilliance. Your internet tough guy cock size is the biggest I've ever seen! May I touch it and dispair?:cry:

[AnArmyVeteran]

101. Is DU a meeting place for horny partners, or is it a forum for discussing issues :)

I bow before no one...

[Touchdown]

115. Hey! They guy challenged me to an web based dick size contest

I just played along.:hi:

[Tesha]

122. Like I said. (NT)

[Touchdown]

77. Yeah. Nobody needs a Porsche when a Yugo is just as good!

:eyes:

[Lucian]

89. I see the cheerleaders are on board.

I love how Apple lovers will buy anything Jobs tells them to boy. :eyes:

[Touchdown]

92. Actually, it's because I'm a union member and can afford it.

and anybody who isn't in a union is a stupid fucking idiot for having a non-union job and should slurp shit because they can't afford anything nice.

I love how I can turn the Apple hater's words around and use them against you.

[Yavin4]

71. Jobs Is Losing His Mind

I wouldn't be suprised to hear about a IJonestown development soon.

[emulatorloo]

79. I know! It is so CRAZY that there is no floppy drive in the original iMAC!!!!!

Either Apple will go out of business or he will have to put floppies in the next generation!

[Tesha]

88. What I wonder is "where are the Silverlight fanbois?" (NT)

[Touchdown]

83. This thread is fun! "Apple is failing!" Apple cuts off it's nose to spite..."

etc. etc. et al. :rofl:

Market cap within spitting distance from MS.
iPhone most popular singular hardware in mobile phones.
iPad's first month outsold iPhone's debut and withing a week outsold all other tablet computers before it.
iMac still the #1 single sku computer in sales.
Has $36 Billion in cash and no debt.
The only computer maker to still turn a profit in this down economy.

But DOOM IS IMMINENT!:D
How it must hurt for the public at large to not listen to the sage advice in this thread about Apple's failure and ultimate downfall. Nobody cares about Flash, except for Flash web developers and Adobe, and those looking for anything to stick in the side of Apple.

Apple should use their $36 Billion and do a hostile takeover of Adobe. I'd love to see the bricks being shit!:rofl:

[ShamelessHussy]

100. excellent stats

thanks for sharing :toast:

[onehandle]

91. Number of iPhones with Flash - Zero. Number of other phones with Flash - Zero.

There's are many reasons and nobody knows them better than Steve.

Let Flash Die.

[Tesha]

123. It's not true that no phones have Flash.

The Nokia N900 Maemo (Linux) phone uses a version
of the Mozilla Fennec browser that has full Flash.

All of the current Nokia S60 (Symbian) Smartphones offer
FlashLite.

Flash does cause these phones enormous trouble, of course.

Tesha

[ShamelessHussy]

99. Now is a GREAT time to be a web developer - HTML5/CSS3/JS - look what you can do with it!

I have recognized this since the iphone first came out, and I had a chance to code against there powerful web browser, Safari/webKit. It clearly demonstrated the power of using open technologies to do the kinds of things on the web I used to only be able to do with flash, sophisticated animation, audio, and video.

I have since then began focusing my study almost exclusively on HTML/CSS/JS, where as before I would divide it between that and Flash, and I have not looked back. I have encountered all along the way great skepticism from other web developers, particularly those heavily invested in FLASH but as time has gone by, with the undeniable success of the mobile touch platforms, and my own personal experience with the technology, I am much more confident that HTML/CSS/JS is the skill to focus on.

Sure, flash isn't going anywhere over night, but the writing is on the wall for sure. And I am in the middle of convincing my team at a large fortune 100 company to adopt HTML5 now. And I have already convinced them to at least migrate all our web pages to the new HTML5 docType for starters, but I also want them to move away from developing new apps in flash, but I do have some resistance from some on that.

I also agree that adobe would be wise to start adding FULL support for HTML 5 in their products, as I am still a big fan of their dev tools, but if they don't support HTML5 I will be forced to shop elsewhere in the future.

BTW: For an example of what you can do with it check out an online tool i am working on for web folk to help them create buttons without any images, programming languages, or plugins...
http://dvia.com/buttonMaker

I am building this entirely in my free time, and when I am done, it will allow you to create multiple buttons that you can save, share, and even sell online =)

wish me luck :hi:

[onehandle]

116. The first thing I did at my last company was have my web team strip all the Flash off of our site..

This was three years ago.

Flash is antiquated and needs to die.

[ShamelessHussy]

118. I would love to do that where I am at now, but they still use video in the hero space

but I am working on getting them to get rid of the flash UI that serves up the rich content. And only use flash, when the rich content is video, and simply use flash as the player, and not anything else.

until an HTML 5 codec becomes ubiquitous :evilgrin:

[Tesha]

126. This started to become obvious once all the cool JavaScript toolkits...

... (such as Dojo, MooTools, and the like) started emerging.

Suddenly, it became possible to do, *WITHOUT FLASH*,
a whole bunch of cool stuff that we would have previously
done using Flash. And as HTML5 becomes more and more
a reality, this will be ever-more true.

Flash still has some uses, but fewer and fewer every day.
Your average iPhone user mostly just notices that they see
far fewer of the all-singing/all-dancing ads that are so common
on websites these days. To many of those users, lack of Flash
is a feature, not a bug.

Tesha

[backscatter712]

108. Flash is something I'd like to see replaced, and it eventually will be replaced.

Let's face it. Flash is buggy, bloated, slow, crashes browsers, and bogs down desktop and laptop machines, which is why nobody wants Flash in smartphones - they don't have the horsepower to handle it. Adobe has a creeping horror to maintain, and they're not willing to spend the development hours to clean it up.

Now we're seeing HTML 5, more browser features, including 3-D/graphical features, video played straight from your browser with your codec of choice, more animation coolness, things like SVG, etc. OK, my skills are a little rusty, but yes, Flash is losing its exclusive hold on apps that do interactivity, animation and video.

Before long, a straight web browser will be able to do everything that Flash does, but do it faster, more efficiently and better.

[blogslut]

124. When someone makes an HTML 5 editor that will enable me to do this

http://blogslut.com/teaqueens.html

I'll stop using FLASH to create my animations.

[ShamelessHussy]

142. i believe CS5 allows you to save animations to HTML5

fyi

Adobe Flash CS5 Can Export to HTML5 Canvas
http://news.downloadatoz.com/adobe-flash-cs5-can-export-to-html5-canvas-20100419.html

if you want your work to run EVERYWHERE, that will be your best option.

[blogslut]

145. Well

That would be awesome but all I've got is Flash MX and there's no way in the world I can afford to upgrade. But it's good to know that Adobe can be converted to Canvas.

I'm just a poor gal with mediocre skills and spare knowledge. I like drawing in FLASH because it's easy to work with. It's not my only drawing tool but it is the one I love the most.

Perhaps someday... :)

[ShamelessHussy]

149. there is another new tool that lets you draw with vectors, and also supports HTML5 called opacity

from their site...
Opacity is an easy to use program for drawing graphics for the screen. It's great for making resolution independent images and icons for applications and the web.

You can download a free trial of Opacity below, and the full version is available for $89.99. Opacity Express, a streamlined, more affordable version of Opacity, is also available for $39.99.

http://likethought.com/opacity/

It is not as robust as flash is, thats for sure, but I bought a copy specifically because it is cheap and it has html5 support... i am hoping that as time goes by it will get even better.

best of luck with your creative work, and hopefully there will be even more tools that let you draw easily for the web that have a good chance of being free.

e.g. here is a free html5 tool for drawing...
http://mugtug.com/sketchpad/

:hi:

[blogslut]

150. Thanks for the links!

Much appreciated. :)

[bridgit]

117. Jeepers, I guess I better run right out and buy whatever Jobs is selling

[ShamelessHussy]

119. it certainly is beginning to look like a stampede when looking at their sales figures

:P

[bridgit]

121. No Doubt, huh?

[Yavin4]

125. I Don't See Apple and Microsoft as True Competitors

I see Apple moving into SONY's sphere. All of the market share gains that Apple has made since the IPod have really come at the expense of SONY more so than MS.


http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-10470102-37.html

[Toasterlad]

127. Translation: "I'm an arrogant asshole who refuses to adapt my shit to consumers wants and needs."

[NashVegas]

129. He's Correct. And You Know What? I Think It's Great

The unbridled arrogance of the technology era is what's going to be responsible for world-wide economic collapse and social dystopia, if Climate Change doesn't get us, first.

Some pro-photographer friends of mine are shitting their pants over the latest CS5 and an online demo. For less than $2k, amateurs have been given a hack to do what these people have dedicated careers to perfecting, and more than paid their dues.

So ... Adobe might be fucked, you say, and these $90k plus-earning computer programmers might become irrelevant to the scores of people who will write apps for free?

I feel so fucking sorry for you.

You, too, can now deal with the electronic product makers controlling your livelihood.

[zulchzulu]

143. Android will support Flash...

As an iPhone developer, it's frustrating that the new Flash app that would have exported iPhone apps was ended. Not that I don't mind coding in XCode, but using Actionscript-based app development that could port out to multiple mobile OS platforms would save lots of development time.

Add that people mix up Flash video (.flv) with Flash apps (.swf) and think Flash is somehow now dead. That's nonsense.

Android looks pretty damn cool, Steve.

[ShamelessHussy]

144. Microsoft echoes Apple view on Adobe's Flash&#8206;

(Reuters) - Microsoft Corp joined archrival Apple Inc in criticizing Adobe Systems Inc's widely used Flash multimedia software, creating a rare bond among the two computing giants.

Apple Chief Executive Steve Jobs sharply criticized Flash, which is used to produce videos and games for many Internet sites on Thursday. Apple has banned Flash from its iPhone and iPad.

A Microsoft executive pitched in later that day, saying while the ubiquity of Flash makes it easy for consumers to access video on the web, the standard has flaws.

"Flash does have some issues, particularly around reliability, security and performance," said Dean Hachamovitch, general manager for the Internet Explorer browser.

He said that Microsoft is backing the same protocols for delivering multimedia content over the Web that Apple is promoting, a group of standards known as HTML5.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE63T47V20100430

[Touchdown]

152. He also said that MS will not allow Flash in IE9

And... HP just killed their "iPad Killer" the Flash enabled Slate.

So... the writing's on the wall.

[dorkulon]

154. Stupid. My ancient Archos 605 plays youtube vids.

People want a device that can do more, not less.