People are really funny here on DU

[boston bean]

They are outraged over the AZ immigration law, and are happy Obama will challenge the constitutionality of it. I feel the same way.

Yet:

A national id card with biometrics for all Americans is AOK.

Is there not the same danger for abuse?

[Oregone]

1. There definitely is

I will not back down, but the only fair way to go is anal microchips.

[Echo In Light]

2. There'll be an enormous attempt by some here re Perception Management

Watch for endless eye rolls, smug ROFL's, sneers, cries of "tinfoil," etc

[woo me with science]

106. If it's no biggie to create a biometrics database and assign these cards to Americans,

why not require them as proof of citizenship when voting?

You don't have to carry around your voter registration card with you 24/7, either, and this would PROVE citizenship. :popcorn:

[truebrit71]

3. I am outraged over both...

..

[boston bean]

5. good, but there are many here who think it's no big deal because

democrats are pushing it. they refuse to see it's the tired ole GOP way.

[Tempest]

27. Care to point me to a thread where DUers are for this?

Thanks.

[boston bean]

31. just read this thread, ok....

[Tempest]

40. If this is your example

Then not only is your premise weak, it's practically non-existent.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

42. By that logic...

it's a shame so many DUers support identity theft.

[Echo In Light]

35. It's only the usual Trivializers...however, we may see a run on sock puppets in coming days

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

44. Trivializers? Um...

this issue is trivial.

Very very trivial.

Innane even.

[truebrit71]

52. Aaah to be so trusting of the government...

...must be nice to be that blissfully ignorant..

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

54. What, exactly, do you expect the government to do?

I mean, even if I were suspicious, what is it I'm supposed to think they'd do with a SS card with biometric data?

Steal my soul?

[Better Believe It]

111. Would you trust a far right-wing government with requiring ID papers (cards).

[The Straight Story]

4. Yeah but some people really, really trust the government - even though govt does not trust them

I dunno. Less info for the gov, the better.

If you want to see where we are headed: Read up on this guy in the UK who tried to go underground.
http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/the_way_we_live/article7096105.ece

"He “became obsessed”, Katie remembers, about the amount of information on him and his family that was already out there. As he looked into it, he found that the UK, once a bastion of freedom and civil liberties, is now one of the most advanced surveillance societies in the world, ranked third after Russia and China. The average UK adult is now registered on more than 700 databases and is caught many times each day by nearly five million CCTV cameras. Increasingly monitored, citizens are being turned into suspects. Within 100 yards of Bond’s home, he discovered, there were no fewer than 200 cameras.

Before going on the run, he made 80 formal requests to government and commercial organisations for the information they held on him. He piled the replies on his floor, appalled by the level of detail. The owners of the databases knew who his friends were, which websites he’d been looking at, and where he had driven his car. One commercial organisation was even able to inform him that, on a particular day in November 2006, he had “sounded angry”. It was more than he knew himself. "

And what if the information about us is wrong? Bond found that the DVLA still keeps on record a youthful driving offence that should have been expunged years ago. He waved it grimly at his uncomprehending daughter: “This is Daddy’s drink-driving record.” Worse was the case of a woman he met, falsely identified by the Criminal Records Bureau as a convicted shoplifter, who’d taken a year to prove her innocence. Or the man who, after someone pinched his credit card details and used them to pay for porn, was arrested, then sacked without notice; when Bond met him, he still hadn’t been able to clear his name.

As Bond became more obsessed, Katie became increasingly annoyed. They argued over filling in a form for Ivy’s nursery. “They can use this data for God knows what!” Bond yelled. “I thought, for God’s sake, no one else worries about this,” Katie remembers. “Why do we have to?” She tried to reassure him: “It’s fine. They’re not going to do anything weird with our data. If some kind of weird government comes in, we’ll opt out.” He wasn’t convinced.


....

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[yellowcanine]

6. How do you know the same people who are outraged over AZ are the ones for national ID card?

I don't see how you can make that conclusion. The fact that both viewpoints might be expressed here proves nothing.

[NJmaverick]

7. People are "funny" in the sense that they need a good reason to be upset

since you can't offer a significant difference between presenting an SS card (like we are now required to do) and presenting a national ID card you demands for outrage fall on deaf ears by those that are ruled by reason.

[boston bean]

12. Employers don't check my finger prints or dna to some government database.

[NJmaverick]

15. means to prove verify an ID card is a poor reason to riot

[boston bean]

24. what???? riot??? the only things that's a riot, is you!

[Xithras]

48. There is no "government database" in the proposal.

B.E.L.I.E.V.E
Locally-stored Information.

The proposal states that your biometric data will be stored in an encrypted chip directly on your card itself. When someone scans your fingerprint, they'll simply be checking to verify that your print matches the print for the card. The government never knows the query happened, it's not logged in some "evil database" somewhere, and nobody can track you with it. The ONLY purpose for the biometric data is to ensure that the card you hand someone is really your card.

As one of the senators stated, it's essentially a high-tech Social Security card. It serves the same purpose as your current social security card, but with a bit of added technology to allow others to verify that "your" card is really "yours".

I don't get the fear that some have about this.

[NJmaverick]

49. Thank you, that was very useful information

:hi:

[MountainLaurel]

8. Possibly, even more potential

One of the parts of the REAL ID Act and the national ID card system would provide law enforcement and other public agencies across the country access to all of the data. So, the clerk at your local DMV office will be able to look up police records for his wife's former brother-in-law in a city across the country.

[Rex]

9. No thanks, I won't be getting one.

Why not just make us give blood at various checkpoints!?

[truebrit71]

20. Or just have everyone micro-chipped at birth..

..

[Rex]

23. Well certain Repukes want to micro-chip illegals, so I'm sure

that would be the next step. Just our kids, mind you, not theirs.

[ecstatic]

11. Do a majority of DUers want a national id card?

:shrug: I don't have an opinion on it.

[Echo In Light]

16. Hell no...just a handful needing to help 'sell' the idea here

[NJmaverick]

26. Yes it's about agenda trumping the facts

[woo me with science]

13. I have often wished I had a magic device on DU

that would make people unaware of the party affiliation of those proposing bills or those in major news stories...

at least for about 24 hours until people have a chance to reply to the stories.

It would be very illuminating.

[Lyric]

22. The backtracking would be EPIC.

Epic.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

14. Is a national ID card inherently racist and unconstitutional?

[truebrit71]

17. It is inherently unconstitutional..not so sure about the racist part..

..that would depend upon how difficult it was, or what documentation you had to provide, in order to get one..

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

19. Crazy conspiracy theorists said the same thing about the social security card.

They were wrong then too.

[truebrit71]

21. Ah, so I'm a crazy conspiracy theorist now eh? "Ihre paperien bitte"..

..what it must be like to be a Good German...:eyes:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

28. Well, you know nothing about the Constitution. That's a good start.

Have you chosen to renounce the 9-11 twoofer movement, which you've shown interest in before?

[truebrit71]

51. Fourth Amendment. Look it up. Read it. Know it. Love it.

WTF is 9-11 twoofer movement?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

57. Oh, you know, building 7 was demolished, there were no planes...

the loch ness monster did it...

That sort of crazy conspiracy shit.

The 4th amendment:

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Nope. Nothing about social security cards.

Maybe you meant some other amendment that doesn't actually exist? At least on this plane of existence?

[truebrit71]

67. Are you being deliberately confrontational or do you not know how to read?

The ID card would have a readable microchip in it.

I'll let that sink in to see if you get it.

That means that it can be read by persons unknown, without your knowledge. That would be a direct violation of the 4th amendment. Or do you REALLY think that the enforcement agencies wouldn't use this new toy to track down folks they wanted to capture for whatever reason.

I'd like you to point out where I said there were no planes on 9/11...

The "crazy conspiracy shit" is the "official" story, but thank Dog there are millions of eager sheep like you that will blindly follow whatever is spoon-fed to them...

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

77. A social security card is neither a search, nor a seizure.

The social security card would be for you to use, to give to people to read, if you want, and you are under no obligation to get one.

"I'd like you to point out where I said there were no planes on 9/11..."

Would you like a post where you're worrying about building 7 being demolisted?

"The "crazy conspiracy shit" is the "official" story, but thank Dog there are millions of eager sheep like you that will blindly follow whatever is spoon-fed to them..."

Oh, well there see? There you go. No need for a link. 9-11 twoof.

[truebrit71]

89. Read the Huff Po article...

...again your trust in the govt and it's law-enforcement agencies is breath-taking in it's naivete..Building 7 coming down and no planes on 9/11 are two separate issues, you know that and are being delibverately intellectual dishonest mixing the two..

If met some willfully ignorant folks in my time, but you are, by a wide, wide margin, the undisputed champion..I await your pithy response and will then place you on ignore..

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

91. Your paranoia and ignorance are breath-taking in their innanity.

Give a person some rope...

[truebrit71]

98. That's it...

..not pithy enuff...oh well you had your shot..welcome to ignore..

[BeFree]

56. Heh, HiFructosePronSyrup, says:

You claim: "Crazy conspiracy theorists said the same thing about the social security card. They were wrong then too."

Heh, I remember being told that my SS # would never be used to identify me except to the SS admins. Well, last time I got a DL, they had to have my SS # first.

So you really are clueless aren't you? Or are you just High?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

61. Umm, be free...

"Heh, I remember being told that my SS # would never be used to identify me except to the SS admins. Well, last time I got a DL, they had to have my SS # first."

Have you considered the possibility that the information you got was wrong? It often is.

[BeFree]

66. Yeah, it was wrong

The government f'n lied. They do that all the time, y'know?

[truebrit71]

69. Not according to Syrup they don't...they always tell you the truth and can be 100% trusted,,

..they have no secret agendas and always have the best interests of the citizenry at heart..

Either that or he's just a Grade-A wanker...I'm going with the latter..

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

74. Actually, no. You misunderstood.

Back when social security first passed, there were a bunch of crazy conspiracy theorists claimed that the SS card was the mark of the devil, and its use would bring about thousands of years of hell on earth as told in the book of Revelation.

Those are still around and just as stupid, if not always so Biblical.

Anyway, to get those fuckers to shut up, they included a law saying it could only be used for SS purposes.

OK, so they shut up for awhile.

Years later, they realized it was pretty fucking stupid to cave to those nuts, so they repealed the law making it OK to use the SS for other purposes.

And none of the nuts noticed, because let's face it, they're pretty fucking stupid. Then many, many years later they realized they were using SS for other purposes, and then got upset because they were never paying attention in the first place.

[BeFree]

84. Yep

So lets see your papers then. And your SS number.
What are you trying to hide? Stand and deliver. Fess up.
Bend over again. Go ahead, your so damn smart and trusting. Go ahead.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

87. Are you offering me a job?

Or some other service for which I am not compelled to give you my SS?

[BeFree]

92. What are you afraid of?

We need to see your papers. I am from the government. Prove you are worthy.
Go ahead. Don't be afraid. We don't lie.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

93. What constitutional rights of mine are you violating?

According to you, you're violating my rights by asking.

[BeFree]

95. Well

Not Violating your rights? Ok, so show us you papers then.

It's what you think should be done to me.

What is it you are afraid of? Just do it. Show us you're a fine example.

[treestar]

101. That states latched onto it as an ID number

States could just issue their own numbers. Like colleges, too - just lazily use the SS number when they could assign their own.

[NJmaverick]

33. Exactly what part of the Constitution is violated?

[Lyric]

18. But...but...Obama wants it!!!

Therefore it's obviously a GREAT idea!!! Screw those civil-rights-obsessed leftbagger tools at the ACLU. They don't know what they're talking about.

:sarcasm:
:banghead:

[Echo In Light]

25. Which is precisely why it will be pushed/defended by a handful here to the nth degree

[ecstatic]

32. I think you're wrong about that

I don't support things *just because* Obama supports them. I think he is the best person for the job that we've had in a long, long time. I don't agree with him on everything, but I do think he deserves the benefit of doubt for most things.

[Echo In Light]

37. If his people are pushing for these cards they deserve zero benefit of the doubt

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

47. I feel the same way about conspiracy theorists.

I mean, they're not rational human beings.

So why should they be listened to on any issue?

[truebrit71]

73. Because the government never lies...

..right?

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight...

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

86. The government some times lies...

therefore Aliens shot JFK to coverup the War in Southeast Mexico?

[abelenkpe]

45. Wait

The President said he supports a national ID card? When? I know it's in a rough draft of the bill to be debated, but don't recall the President saying he supports it.

[ecstatic]

50. Me neither. A huge problem with the Obama haters is

that they lie to get their points across.

[texastoast]

29. Who the fuck said that?

Don't count me with the "funny" ones.

[sandnsea]

30. Don't some put fingerprints on drivers licenses?

I think that is terrible, but California already does that. Maybe they could use it for employment and let the rest of us know how it works out. I think it's terrible to have our fingerprints to work, especially when the people who hire illegals will just circumvent that law too.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

36. It's worse.

Some even put height, weight, eye and hair color on a drivers license.

And a picture!

Gasp!

Biometrics!

[NJmaverick]

38. !

:spray:

[sandnsea]

59. I hate the idea of a national work paper

And the inclusion of a finger print or eventually, DNA. It's just so pathetic that we've gotten to this place because of the fears of a bunch of freepers.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

65. Ah, slippery slope arguments.

Ironically, that's real popular among the freepers.

[sandnsea]

70. What slippery slope?

I have given my fingerprints twice in my life and resented the piss out of it both times. Once to cash a check and recently to get a job. Actually, I can half understand giving fingerprints for census work, considering the position. But to get any job? It's bullshit. Just like drug tests for every other job is bullshit. I don't know how people put up with it.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

80. OMG! DNA!

DIDN'T YOU SEE THAT MOVIE GATTACA?!

[SlipperySlope]

114. You called?

[JoeyT]

96. Hell, my state has a bar code on the back

I'm not too sure what other states have.
Clearly the Alabama legislature and DMV are in league with the Beast.
If I believed there were a Beast it wouldn't really surprise me.

Huh. And a quick Google search turned up five people pushing conspiracy theories about it in the first page of results.

[sandnsea]

109. I'm talking about privacy

not any ridiculous beast.

[burning rain]

34. A national ID card with biometrics has a number of virtues...

one of them being that it causes the Alex Jones / Ron Paul birdbrains to get in a tizzy and show themselves.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

39. There is no national ID card

This a swipeable (magnetic strip) SS card which would be used in the same way as your current SS card. The only difference is it has the added personal information about you in the card. The same information which is currently on your drivers license or ID. It's a way of syncing the two together for security of your SS ID while still only requiring you to carry (or not, depending on your state law) your state issued ID.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

41. People are really funny here on DU.

They will be upset over that racism in Arizona, but they won't recognize that I AM THE SMARTEST HUMAN BEING IN HISTORY DUE TO MY STUDIES IN THE FOUR SIDED-HARMONIC TIME CUBE. THEY ARE EDUCATED STUPID.

[WilliamPitt]

46. Series!!11!1!1!!1!!!!!

[WilliamPitt]

43. "A national id card with biometrics for all Americans is AOK"

According to whom?

A link would be nice.

:hi: Fellow Bostonian :hi:

[Blue-Jay]

53. shhh... Don't interrupt people when they're making shit up.

[WilliamPitt]

55. Dammit

I always forget. Where are my manners?

(facepalm)

[boston bean]

58. never thought you would be ok with a biometric national id card, but if you are

look no further than yourself as proof of the validity of my post.

[WilliamPitt]

Wow.

That was awesome.

Do it again.

[boston bean]

68. will be happy to oblige

the next time the opportunity represents itself.

when you least expect it.

[WilliamPitt]

71. Yay!

Again! Again! Again!

[boston bean]

72. this is getting creepy

don't you have someone else to help you.

[WilliamPitt]

75. LOL

Tell me about it.

(facepalm)

I'm off to finger my biometric microchip in a suggestively sexual fashion.

...mmmmm, track me, baby...

[ecstatic]

79. That's really deep

:think:

[Echo In Light]

63. The OP's generalization re this forum's overall response thus far?

... or that these cards have indeed been proposed? ... b/c they have:

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2010/04/30/ACLU-blasts-national-ID-card-proposal/UPI-96821272634097

"Creating a biometric national ID will not only be astronomically expensive, it will usher government into the very center of our lives," ACLU legislative counsel Christopher Calabrese said.

The immigration system needs "real, workable reform," but not at the expense of individual freedoms, Calabrese said.

[Riftaxe]

60. It would be fine with me

My current SS card is held together with multiple layers of tape and luck after 30 years in my wallet. Maybe the new ID card will be more durable.

[woo me with science]

81. Especially if you can scrape your car windshield with it. nt

[sinkingfeeling]

62. Who said a national ID card was OK? (I mean here on DU)

[boston bean]

64. bunch of peeps here on this thread. just look above^^. nt

[hootinholler]

88. I think ignored might have

:rofl:

-Hoot

[truebrit71]

90. Two new "ignored"s did as well..

..

[Echo In Light]

94. And as usual, DU gives em a free pass

[truebrit71]

97. Yup..just here to disrupt and bugger all done about it..

..oh well, none so blind as those that refuse to see I guess..

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

100. "none so blind as those that refuse to see I guess.."

You mean like people who use the ignore function?

[Hansel]

76. No it is not okay. nt

[philly_bob]

78. Is a national biometric ID card unconstitutional? If so, why? Anybody? n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

83. 9th amendment! Look it up!

ZOMG!

[stray cat]

82. Is there anything that doesn't have the potential to be abused?

[stray cat]

85. how many have refused to get a national ID card - ie a social security number and card?

[NJmaverick]

99. I have been thinking the same thing. No one has explained to me

how a national ID card for work would be significantly different than the current SS card

[Uncle Joe]

102. For one thing it's more invasive, your biological imprint versus a number

just another step down the slippery slope.

Here's a question I have, is there a difference in how you can be requested or ordered to show this Biometric Card versus a SS Card?

[treestar]

103. People who are really stuck on illegal immigrants

have to be for this - in the end, how else can things be enforced?

[revolution breeze]

104. No to National ID

Hubby retired from the Navy. Prior to his retirment, they began issuing the biometic ID cards for military members. The chip on the card contained hubby's entire military record (22 years) PLUS his medical records PLUS his next of kin contact information PLUS his direct deposit information for his pay. I am certain it was security encoded, etc., but the thought of him losing that card and someone with the technology finding it scared me to death!

[seabeyond]

105. i know. amazing isnt it. tsa unlimited power, thumbs up. patriot act, sure.

i would hope there would be the same outrage and boycotting of oklahoma new laws too, nada.

[Jennicut]

107. I love how people think they are not "tracked" already....by corporations, not the govt.

Have a card at the grocery store? CVS? Internet searches? ATM cards? All your stuff is already known by many other people out there.

Google is the data mining king.
And thankfully we don't live in the U.K., where everyone is watched on camera. Mass survellience.

Not that an ID card would be a good thing. But none of us are as "free" or "private" as we think we are.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

108. But..but..we can "trust" our government not to abuse power!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Odin2005]

110. The Cheerleaders agree with anything Obama says.

Even if what he says is Corporatist garbage.

[Bluebear]

112. And the DOJ defending DOMA inspires nearly a yawn.

[havocmom]

113. National ID not OK with Montana voters. We voted to fight Real ID

And our governor did that. Notice the whole issue sorta slipped away for some time? We said no and told the governor he had to fight it. He went national and made the case against it.

Took the bozos a while to broach the subject again. Guess we have to slip his leash off and set him loose again.

I see all this papers and special ID crap as a two-fold scam. The obvious problem of course: Innocent until proven guilty and fascist taste. But SOMEBODY is gonna make a fucking fortune making black market IDs and a whole new level of organized corporate crime will spring up, if it hasn't already.

Papers? The corporations want everyone accounted for. It's the fascism.

[SlipperySlope]

115. I, for one, am *not* ok with a national ID card.

Maybe it's just me, but I see no good whatsoever that can come from having a national ID card.