New Jersey DYFS has abused and endangered my friend, a great mom.

[waiting]

Over 6 months ago, my friend went to a party with her family. She had some wine while she was there. After returning home, she and her 16 year old daughter argued over something. Like any typical 16 year old girl, the daughter went ballistic over her mom taking her cell phone and proceeded to scream in her mom's face and to push her physically while trying to grab her phone back. The mom slapped her daughter's face. Here is where it gets messy. My friend and her husband had been having some marital troubles recently that were not resolved at this point, they had been separated once before but were trying to work things out. Needless to say, that wasn't going well. My friend's husband actually called the police on her and claimed that she had threatened to use a knife on him.
The police came, and all was quiet for a while. You see, I live right behind them and heard and saw much of this going on. Then the police arrested her, because she was not cooperating with their requests to calm down and be quiet. At that point her husband got a restraining order against her and DYFS got involved. She has been made to go to anger management, psychological counseling, and alcohol and drug rehab meetings, all while still be investigated by DYFS for being a threat to her children's safety. I have known this family for a very long time and I know exactly who this woman is and how she is with her children. She is a loving and attentive mother, who bends over backward for her kids, and her community. Her husband has total domination over the finances and her life at this point, and DYFS has taken over her home and her freedom to be in it. She cannot even divorce her husband at this point because she is not allowed in her house full time and would probably lose her kids if she went against her husband's wishes. Her case worker has said that all of her evaluations have come back with her being fit to be with her kids and not a threat to them at all, as well as the fact that she is not an alcoholic or a drug addict. Yet the case worker won't close her case because he said that a divorce is not good for the family and that she and her husband have to go to marriage counseling before he closes it. He also said that she should be being intimate with her husband, which she hasn't been in a long time, understandably. He also told her husband that she was planning to divorce him and kick him out of the house after thDYFS case was resolved, which has put her physically in danger. When she told her case worker that she was going to be informing her Congressman about him and his actions in her case, he said, "Good, go ahead, he's a good friend of mine."
I cannot believe that a woman who has never been in trouble once in her 49 years, could be put through this kind of torture because of one family argument and a lie told by her husband. In New Jersey, if you are a home maker, and your husband accuses you of something illegal, you might as well be a woman living in the dark ages. I have no idea how to help her, as lawyers in N.J. are reluctant to fight DYFS because they are given such power and authority here. She has a lawyer who seems to me to be inept and possibly negligent. Anyone have any suggestions or ideas f how I can help this woman before she loses hat little sanity that she has left?

[Beetwasher]

1. Stay Out Of It, It Is None Of Your Business

You may think you know the family, but you don't. You don't have any idea what's really going on. Maybe your point of veiw is right, maybe it's wrong, but you are far from any position as a friend of hers to be objective on the matter.

Why are you peaking in their windows?:

"You see, I live right behind them and heard and saw much of this going on."

Really. Mind your own business. Let the experts do their work. You may think she's being railroaded, but you are not objective. She's your friend, so you are going to defend her.

Slapping her daughter in the face is abusive behavior. Period. And if she did it this once, it almost certainly was not the first time.

[waiting]

7. Wow. No I didn't look in the windows, I didn't have to.

Her husband was yelling about calling the police outside on the porch, which is right outside my house. And it is my business. I have been helping her kids and caring for the younger one the entire time she was out of the house. I know what happened in the past when her husband hit her. Yet he is still in his home no problem. Her daughter was physically shoving her and pushing her and trying to hit her, what do you do then? She had every right to slap her face.

[Beetwasher]

9. According To You She "Deserved" It, It's Still None Of Your Business

But go ahead and poke your nose into another families business. It's your perogative.

[waiting]

13. I'm not poking my nose anywhere

I was asked by both her and her husband to help. You see, he had no idea that DYFS was going to be dominating both of their lives like this for over 6 months after the incident.

[Beetwasher]

22. Sure You Are

But don't let that stop you. Good luck with that.

[Darth_Kitten]

136. Gee, let's not have friends help us or anything like that huh?

n/t

[Beetwasher]

146. Let's Not Have Intervention Either

or any investigation or counseling and just take this persons word that everything is really honkey dorey with this family and there's no danger to anyone. Because everything in this OP is factual and true and this person knows every detail of everything that happened and that's been said and done by everyone involved. Yeah. We know all we need to know about this based on an anonymous post on the internet.

[mzteris]

11. no one has a "right to slap her face".

One has a right to protect themselves, yes - but "slapping the face of a daughter?" Not good. Not good at all.

That said - the woman needs an advocate, she could contact the local women's shelter for advise/referral.

[waiting]

17. Yes, I'm afraid that you are technically right.

However, my 16 year old daughter would get a slap in the face if she was physically assaulting me.

[mzteris]

19. I think there are better ways to handle it

than "slapping her face". That will just escalate things and make it worse, imo.

[Name removed]

134. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lance_Boyle]

15. Again, you know FOR A FACT that her husband hit her in the past?

Did you see it happen?

And no, a parent doesn't have every right to slap their kid in the face. You may have one assault provoked by another, but this is not the NFL - the penalties do not offset.

[waiting]

20. Yes, it's on his record.

And I would guess that you don't have any teenage kids acting out during dysfunctional family arguments. This woman had a right to defend herself. And even if she didn't, one face slap does not require over 6 months of interference from DYFS. DYFS gets paid for every case it has, so the more cases the more money.

[Lance_Boyle]

26. a slap in the face is not self defense - it is assault

And if this woman has to "defend herself" from her own child, she's got worse problems that DYFS. You are likely not privy to as much of the inside story with this family as you seem to believe you are. You have described your friend as a violent drunk with emotional stability problems. My guess would be that those problems are to blame for the "like mother, like daughter" violence in the family.

[LeftyMom]

18. Slapping a child is child abuse. It's illegal. It's immoral. You're blaming the child.

[waiting]

23. Wow, that's ridiculous.

No one is perfect. Believe me , one slap in the face does not equal child abuse.

[LeftyMom]

36. Yes it does. A parent is in a position of power over a child. If that were a teacher or a priest,

you'd be calling for her head. And you should.

People who hit kids are scum. Fuck them. And fuck anybody who excuses child abuse.

[LiberalAndProud]

41. To equate a slap

to beating, maiming, burning, starvation ...

It seems to me that by doing this, we dilute the message.

[LeftyMom]

45. Violence toward children is wrong. It fucks them up.

edit: If this woman had done the same thing to her husband, she'd have got a free ride to the county lockup, no questions asked.

[yellowcanine]

65. Sometimes worse forms of child abuse begin with a slap.

It is fairly easy to go from open hand to closed fist to picking up an object. Abusers tend to escalate.

[waiting]

48. You sound like you have anger issues yourself.

You have no right to be so judgemental when you don't even know them.

[LeftyMom]

50. We should all show anger at child abuse.

I'm sorry you don't.

[Darth_Kitten]

137. Well, maybe snotty assed teenagers should give their mothers some respect?

n/t

[proteus_lives]

132. My mother slapped me once. I don't consider her scum.

One slap isn't child abuse.

[mitchum]

43. Sorry, but that is indeed child abuse

[yellowcanine]

63. One slap in the face of a child IS child abuse. It is also assault..

And the fact that the child may be yelling at you and defying you is no defense.

[proud2BlibKansan]

108. Yes it does

[sui generis]

35. sorta agree except the part about slapping in the face

it is absolutely inconceivable to me that some fucktarded overblown organization would have come into my family to evaluate my parents because I got swatted once or twice when we were all young and stupid and they were inexperienced. Do they not send social workers to school in New Jersey or can you just attend some TV school and buy your license on the interwebs?

I'll say it now, if there aren't enough REAL clearly abusive crazy parents out there already, these IDIOT social workers are clogging up the system with their own lack of judgement and ability to triage what's a danger to a child from what's merely dysfunctional.

I utterly despise CPS here in Texas - they really are a maverick organization that does more harm than good in the 80 percent of their case load that takes up 20 percent of state resources. Reverse Pareto = wrong focus. Slapping a kid in the face is how many parents were themselves raised, and they certainly don't perceive it as "abusive" even if it certainly doesn't ever do anything but make a bad situation even more awkward.

Having ranted about all that, I do agree that a neighbor/friend is going to know considerably less about the situation, and a family that has that much internal nastiness aimed at each other is not going to last in any meaningful way. Does that mean a social worker needs to get involved and start tossing her weight around? No - there millions of families like that, but there are absolutely tens of thousands certainly where a drug test will come back positive every day of the week, where there is a clear and obvious pattern of substance and alcohol abuse, where there are police and 911 calls of record and friends and neighbors who notice unusual behaviors on BOTH sides of the relationship. If those things weren't happening, then social services are wasting the state's money and prerogative on this family when there are very real and obvious families in real and obvious crisis.

These New Jersey nutcase social workers are lost, and doing harm, not preventing it.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[waiting]

56. Exactly.

My daughter and this girl are best friends. There has never been any prior incidents against this woman and she has never been in trouble with the law. Every piss test came back clean from her during this investigation.

[mzteris]

59. did she schedule her own tests?

Alcohol leaves the system pretty quickly...

Also, maybe her issues aren't "drug or alcohol" but sounds like there could be something going on.

Hormonal levels - PDD.
Pituitary or thyroid disorders.
Undiagnosed PTSD.

If you're her true friend, you'll make sure that she gets a clean bill of health - period.

Sounds like the hubby and the cps worker are complete dipshits - and she can and should get her OWN social worker as her advocate. Not you. You're a friend. Give her support and advice - but make sure it's good advice and not what she wants to hear.

It's difficult to tell the "good guys" from the "bad guys" from a short story. If she is indeed as you think she is, she's getting a very raw deal - but it does sound like she could use some 'help'. We can only go by what we read. We don't "know her" or them or the kids, so we can only offer advice on the facts as we are aware of them. And pretty much according to the facts - your friend needs both legal and mental health (and possibly physical health) help.

[waiting]

64. I do tell her the truth, not what she wants to hear.

She is going through menapause, which I'm sure contributed to her emotional state that night. And yes, she has been clean the entire time, I see her every day. And no, she didn't schedule her tests, they did. She does need help, but no one is helping, not even her crappy lawyer.

[mzteris]

69. Menopause can kick your ass...

has she seen her gyno? Find one who specializes in menopausal issues. There are some imbalances that CAN make you act crazy...

[waiting]

66. delete

Deleted double post.

[sui generis]

79. Yeah, I suspect bad social services policy

Some social workers are misguided and destructive. Some social workers know what they're doing. When I hear somebody making an administrative move to keep a case open based on a personal bias I'm thinking they probably aren't focusing on the right things in the case.

When I hear about "probation" along with its attendant fees and sensitivity to undue influence from hearsay alone, I think somebody figured out how to increase their department's bottom line.

color me cynical. I'm sure you DON'T disagree that given a choice between taking down parents with a straw in nose, needle in arm and bottle in mouth and someone who slapped their brat, the proper use of limited resources is to deal with the heavy shit first, and deal appropriately with the inconsequential shit last, if at all.

[WolverineDG]

124. After seeing CPS work here in Texas first-hand, I can believe

that the do-goody social worker insists on marriage counseling & requiring parents to have sex. CPS is given a lot of leeway in what they do because "it's for the children," an excuse that hides a lot of abuses, especially if the family has children CPS can sell on the adoption market & make some money terminate rights on easily (poor, not likely to afford an attorney, cute & young white or white-looking kids) & adopt out.

dg

[Maat]

130. Hey, WolverineDG, I'm a retired social worker who ..

adopted a child taken into custody. I adopted her over a decade ago. She's white, I'm white and her biological mother was poor. Are you going to say that there was something nefarious about my adoption? I'm really sick of that 'adoption market' crap. Yes, the county gets paid for adoptions, but it gets paid for family maintenance and family reunification cases also.

Trust me, at least in California, there isn't any incentive to grab a kid from a wonderful family in order to get money for the agency. That's a myth. Workers go out of their way to keep families together, and regard adoption as a last resort.

In handling literally thousands of cases, I only had to get Adoptions involved twice. One time a mother stated that she wanted her boys, but not her girls, and relinquished her daughters. Once, I had a case in which a baby was born and immediately thrown into a trashcan at a hospital; of course, we had to find a family for that sweety. Biological Mom declined to come forward.

My friends who are still active state that there has been a greater emphasis upon getting involved in domestic violence situations, as someone tends to die or get seriously injured if things persist.

[WolverineDG]

138. There's a lot more money in the termination/adoption racket now

due to a well-intentioned federal law signed by Clinton, designed to move hard-to-place kids in foster care into permanent homes. CPS gets money when they yank kids out of their homes & it gets more money when they get adopted.

Of course there are bad parents out there, but until you've seen the bullshit CPS pulls on parents first-hand (like remove a domestic violence victim's kids from her because she's not "protecting" them & give them to her abuser), I suppose you'll continue to drink the kool-aid that CPS only does good & never ever think of the money they get from selling kids.

dg

[Maat]

139. No, I don't drink the Kool-Aid.

You'd be surprised about my attitudes toward CPS, I'm sure.

The point is, however, that CPS does not wind up with more money by adopting kids out; that's just a myth.

[WolverineDG]

144. Truth is, they do nt

[Maat]

148. Horsehockey.

Prove it. If you have any concrete information to suggest that, make a police report to the appropriate authorities.

Otherwise, shut up, and quit insulting social workers who sacrifice greatly to do a great job.

My sister works for Child Protective, and you are insulting her and many of my friends.

I worked there for years, and am now retired.

I never saw anything to suggest that anyone was committing a crime; cops, attorneys and judges involved would have to be in on it in each case, and that's an awful lot of people conspiring without anyone getting charged.

Put up (proof) or shut up.

Oh, and by the way, terminating parental rights (which is only done VERY rarely) involves AT LEAST a year's worth of court hearings, and each parent has an attorney appointed to them. So, much of what you said just isn't true.

[blueamy66]

62. Slapping a teenager in the face is not abusive behavior.

I got smacked a few times and I deserved it.

Kids are too damn pampered these days.

[Beetwasher]

67. No, You Didn't Deserve It, And It's Abusive Despite The Fact It Happened To You

And you THINK you turned out ok.

Violence on children is never acceptable behavior. Period. And I certainly hope you are not continuing that cycle of violence with your own kids, if you have them.

If you are, please reconsider.

[blueamy66]

127. Yeah, I did deserve it. I mouthed off to my Mom and she slapped me.

It's not abuse. I'll stand by that until the day that I die.

Violent? My Mom? hahahaha

:crazy:

on edit: So, I'm curious to know what you think the acceptable punishment would be for a 16 year old girl who called her mother a bitch because she wouldn't let her use the car that night? A time out in the corner?

[Beetwasher]

142. Of Course You WIll Stand By That, Most Victims Do

I hope you don't think it's appropriate to treat your kid in that manner. It's never appropriate.

You would hit your kid for calling you a bitch? I've got news for you, you're an abuser too.

[blueamy66]

150. I don't have kids.

So, again, what punishment is appropriate for a 16 year old who calls her mother a bitch? Not only appropriate and it's gotta work too....I'm waiting...

I'm an abuser too? WTF? Who am I abusing? My vegetable? You don't know me from Adam Beetwasher. I laugh at you.

[Beetwasher]

151. Thank Goodness U Don't Have Kids

Punishment? How about communication and understanding instead. There's an underlying dysfunction if things escalate to violence over name calling.

[blueamy66]

152. Wow.

What perfect world do you live in? communication and understanding and teenagers??? I laugh at you.

I do have nieces and nephews that are often left alone with me. Maybe I should warn their parents! :-)

[Beetwasher]

154. Yes, We Get It, You're Prone To React Violently When Someone Calls You A Name

When you do that to a child, it's abuse.

Again, thank goodness you have not procreated. Please don't.

[blueamy66]

156. I told some friends and family that you told me that I was abused.

They laughed. We all laughed.

Thanks for the chuckles.

[Beetwasher]

157. Typical

Laugh off abuse. Ha ha. You were smacked around and you turned out "ok", right? Well, at least according to you. Frankly, I pity someone like you. So damaged they can't even see that hitting someone over name calling is dysfunctional.

Yes, people will often laugh when faced with uncomfortable truths.

Anyone who gets violent over being called names or think it's ok to get violent over name calling, especially when children are involved, has issues with violence.

As I keep saying, thank goodness you haven't brought any kids into this world.

[blueamy66]

158. I was smacked a few times, when I deserved it.

I'm damaged? Do tell to what extent.

-college graduate
-own a home
-do volunteer work
-babysit my nieces/nephews/grand nieces/grand nephews
-work 45+ hours a week, cause I have a good job and the economy is turning around
-live with my awesome fiance - who has a good job too and he doesn't beat me
-no criminal record


My family laughed at you. My family, who have kids of their own. Maybe you should call CPS on them.

Save your pity. Go wash some beets....I'm gonna go outside and cut some artichokes from my garden and make a lovely appetizer. Oh wait, I am damaged....so I cannot cook. Shit. Oh well.

You are certifiable. Go see a shrink....NOW!

[Beetwasher]

160. Yes, You Would Think You Deserved It, That's Why I Pity You

Do the world a favor and don't have kids of your own. You would almost certainly continue the abusive cycle with them.

[blueamy66]

161. Don't waste your energy pitying me.

Go wash some beets, k?

Hey, I may just have to have some kids, just to piss you off!

still laughing.....

Are you gonna take my advice and seek professional help? Get some medication,k?

Oh, and my nieces are going to let me keep the 5 kids this weekend. We're gonna watch movies and eat popcorn and their Uncle is gonna grill chicken wings outside. I hope that I don't scar them for life!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Beetwasher]

163. Pity Takes No Energy

Please refrain from beating those kids as you might be wont to do.

[blueamy66]

164. I'll try not to.

But hey, my mother's wrath might inhibit my brain and voila....the beatings may begin.

You're pyscho.

[Beetwasher]

166. You Believe That It's Ok To Smack Kids Around For Name Calling

That's dysfunctional. You should rethink your violent impulses and try to control them.

[Beetwasher]

153. n/t

[Darth_Kitten]

135. Well, her brat hit her first?

Who hits their mother, especially over a stupid cellphone?

[Beetwasher]

145. The "Brat" Did That?

I wonder where she learned that behavior. Obviously there is dysfunction if things are escalating to this level of violence to begin with. If in fact this story is true and happened the way described.

[Lance_Boyle]

2. Um, how do you know for a fact that the knife-related call was untrue?

If she so unstable as to be unable to calm down for the cops, what makes you think she wasn't unstable enough to threaten her husband with a knife?

[waiting]

8. She was drunk.

The police looked in her kitchen drawers and determined that a butter knife looked out of place in the utility drawer. And at court she didn't want to put her daughter on the witness stand, so she accepted probation under a conditional discharge.

[Lance_Boyle]

12. So... drunk driving, drunken kid slapping, but no possibility of drunken knife threatening?

You really seem unable to take an objective view of this, and should probably heed the first poster's advice re: not getting involved.

[waiting]

27. And you can equate those things with this because you are so aware of her situation?

Her daughter assaulted her and she slapped her face. That is nowhere near drunk driving, and she didn't threaten her husband, he was treatening her and had hit her in the past.

[Lance_Boyle]

29. You said she drove home drunk and slapped her kid.

You also said that her husband reported to the police that she threatened him with a knife.

You do not paint a flattering picture of your "great mom" friend - in your narrative she comes across one wire hanger short of a monster.

[waiting]

33. She didn't drive her, her husband did.

And yes he reported that. And she is not a wire hanger psycho.

[TK421]

103. "NO WIRE HANGERS"!!!!!

[lumberjack_jeff]

34. "accepted probation under a conditional discharge"

It sounds to me like the court convicted her of threatening him with a knife. Guilt would be a really good explanation of why she didn't want her daughter to testify.

"A" gets drunk and hits a child. The police are called by "B" who claims "A" threatened him with a knife for defending the child. "B" files a restraining order. "A" was convicted and sentenced to probation. The probation officer won't close the case because "A" is uncooperative.

It's hard to escape the conclusion that you think this is unjust because "A" is your friend, and that we should be sympathetic because she's a woman.

I find the skepticism you've encountered to be somewhat refreshing.

[waiting]

42. Wrong.

A conditional discharge occurs from a not guilty plea, and as long as she doesn't get in trouble again during the period of probation, she is cleared of all charges just like it never happened. And the charge was domestic violence, not terroristic death threats. And a 16 year old s not the same as a 5 or 10 year old. It sounds to me like maybe you have issues about women from your post.

[lumberjack_jeff]

47. It's good to see that your psychic skills extend to people you know from one DU post.

Your willingness to stereotype me doesn't lend any credibility to your defense of your neighbor.

Trouble with women? I'm not the one defending knife-wielding child abusers.

[rug]

57. You're correct.

A conditional discharge involves no admission of guilt and is a form of pretrial intervention that results in the dismissal of all charges.

It is not often offered to guilty people.

[The Magistrate]

93. It Is Often Offered, Sir, To First Offenders, Regardless Of Guilt

At least in my state that is the case. The intent is to keep people out of the system, banking on a sort of 'scared straight' result from the arrest and preliminaries, with the back-up of supervision for a good stretch. If people perform as hoped, they emerge without a record and their future prospects unimpaired; if they cannot behave themselves for a while, then....

[rug]

110. New Jersey is not Illinois.

It there was substantial credibility to the accusation of waving a knife at an identified individual, probation upon a plea is the more likely offer, not this type of pretrial intervention and dismissal.

[yellowcanine]

68. A 16 year old is still a child. And assault is still assault. You make far too many excuses for

your friend. You are enabling her.

[rug]

162. It's not. New Jersey Statutes 2C:3-8.

There is a parental privilege in administering corporal privilege provided it is not excessive, abusive or with malice. A slap rarely meets those criteria.

[blueamy66]

165. Exactly.

I cannot believe people believe that a slap constitutues abuse. Crazy.

But then, I was "abused", so what do I know?

[LiberalAndProud]

3. Is this legal?

"Yet the case worker won't close her case because he said that a divorce is not good for the family and that she and her husband have to go to marriage counseling before he closes it. He also said that she should be being intimate with her husband, which she hasn't been in a long time, understandably. "

This is where DYFS needs to BUTT OUT. "all of her evaluations have come back with her being fit to be with her kids and not a threat to them at all"

I hope she has a really good lawyer. She needs representation both for her divorce and for the DYFS case.

[waiting]

10. I don't think it is legal. And no I don't think she has a good attorney.

Her husband controls all the money. She doesn't work.

[LiberalAndProud]

31. So there you have it.

"Anyone have any suggestions or ideas"

See if you can find an avenue for her to get legal assistance. Every one, even drunk, knife-wielding child abusers, :eyeroll: can benefit from good legal representation in situtations like this.

[waiting]

46. Thanks

I agree. And I never claimed that she was perfect, just that she doesn't deserve this kind of crap.

[LeftyMom]

4. Wait, this lady was drunk and hit her kid? Fuck her.

Teenagers are assholes, and they like to provoke people. But you don't hit them. Ever.

[LiberalAndProud]

6. There are many times my daughters provoked a face slap.

They didn't get one. Except once, and I apologized immediately thereafter.

That doesn't mean some beaurocratic asshole gets to tell her to go home and fuck her estranged husband.

[LeftyMom]

14. The woman's a child abuser.

They make up stupid shit to divert attention to everything but their own behavior. I used to work in a foster care agency- I could tell some crazy stories, if not for HIPPA.

[LiberalAndProud]

24. From three paragraphs, you know this?

Our own experiences ... you could tell stories about "them" and I could tell stories about the overreach of social agencies. And neither one of us would be wrong.

[LeftyMom]

37. From the stated facts of the story, the mom was drunk and slapped her kid.

That's illegal child abuse.

[yellowcanine]

73. Except that in this case everyone except the woman who was drunk and slapped her 16 year old

daughter seems to be in the wrong. All told through the eyes of a friend. It doesn't ring true for me.

[waiting]

30. Man, thank you for being sane and seeing this more clearly

than most of the others here. It is the beaurocratic asshole that is abusing these kids, not her.

[Beetwasher]

32. That Beauracratic Asshole Could Be In DEEP Shit If Something Happens To That Kid

And is more than likely being cautious so that nothing DOES happen to that kid. Better safe than sorry.

But you know more than experts, right? I mean, you live right behind them and have advanced degrees in counseling, therapy and are a LCSW, right? So everyone should just listen to you and move on.

[waiting]

39. You are a real piece of work. And since you know so much more than I do

you must be right. Not! This beaurocratic asshole has violated ethical standards and put her safety at risk, but you know best. Oh and BTW, NY DYFS case workers do not have advanced degrees in counseling or therapy. And the people that she saw who do have those degress have completely cleared her.

[Beetwasher]

40. What Do YOU Know About The Ethical Standards Involved?

How do YOU know what degrees any of these people have?

I thought this was NJ not NY?

I don't know anything about the case except from what you've said. And from that, I can tell you don't know much either. But you certainly seem to think you're more qualified than the experts whos asses are on the line if anything really bad happens to that kid.

[waiting]

53. What does NY have to do with it?

Yes it is NJ. And yes, there are ethical standards that any case workers should be following. Telling a woman to have sex with her husband and telling her husband what her plans for divorce are, is plainly unethical. And you can't tell anything about what I know from a couple of posts here. As I've said, I know this family very well. She hasn't hit her kids previously, and while you are needlessly worried about this "kid", the mother is the one in danger here. After being cleared by the psychiatrists and alcohol and drug counselors, her case should be closed. This is obviously not about the kids, or it would be. It is about a power trip that this guy is on over her life, and also about how DYFS makes it's money. Maybe you should educate yourself in the system here a bit more before you presume to know more than I do.

[Beetwasher]

54. Yeah, They're All In It For The Money

Those damn greedy social workers. :eyes:

All we have is your hearsay that this is what was said to her.

[TK421]

104. I take it the DYFS has some sort of quota they must meet?

that in itself is disturbing, but nonetheless you should not get involved in this situation. I realize you care about your friend, but there are obviously problems that need to get worked out with her. The husband may be a controlling asshole, but he is HER controlling asshole.

[Maat]

131. No ...

the agencies do NOT have quotas.

They simply resist staying involved in cases in which it is not deemed to be really necessary. They have plenty of referrals, and the agencies get paid no matter how the case is resolved.

[LiberalAndProud]

49. Where does their authority end?

I value their work, and don't envy the task of separating the sheep from the goats. Having seen the worst our society can produce, I believe those experiences color their perception of those who just get caught up in the system. At least that has been my experience. I do believe that if there is a mistake, it should be made with an eye toward protecting the children.

Having said that, is frequency of intercourse really within their perview?

[Beetwasher]

52. The Only Evidence You Have That This Guy Said She Should Fuck Her Husband More

Is some anonymous poster on DU, who was told that by her mentally unstable friend.

Your free to believe that was exactly what was said. And maybe it was. But somehow, I doubt it.

[LiberalAndProud]

58. If he said it, would you agree that it is offensive?

and overreaching?

BTW, not every person working in social services is necessarily clear thinking. I'd even bet you that some of them are Republicans! (joke)

[Beetwasher]

60. IF He Said That, Then Yes It Would Have Been Innapropriate

And of course there are bad social workers. I doubt very many are Republicans though. It's a profession that is really not too compatable with that world view.

The social workers I work with, and have worked with, are almost all VERY committed, compassionate people who are really motivated to help and serve their clients in the best way possible. And yes, they will bend over backwards to absolutely make certain that the children are in not in dangerous environments. And will go the extra mile to make certain of that. And if that means keeping them separated from a parent for possibly a little longer than the parent thinks is necessary, well, better safe than sorry.

[TK421]

106. I've found most social workers, psychologists tend to be liberal-leaning

at least, the ones I've seen

[LiberalAndProud]

107. I find that I have no argument with you, Beetwasher.

"And if that means keeping them separated from a parent for possibly a little longer than the parent thinks is necessary, well, better safe than sorry."

You are right. And in my second-hand experiences with social services, in the end it has come out right, although not without causing some stress to the children involved.

I don't envy you if this is your field, it's difficult, thankless, and pays not near enough. Kudos.

[Beetwasher]

112. The "Bad" Social Workers Are The One's Who Have Given Up

They have become so cynical they've turned off their compassion.

Sometimes the system can do that to you. When you try your damndest and STILL can't help someone.

The bad one's have given up.

In all my experience I have NEVER seen a single social worker keep a case open for the "money" (which would be the billing for the state funds). Social Workers don't work on commission. And believe me, for every one case that is being handled there are HUNDREDS more that could replace it but the manpower to do so is unavailable. This whole idiotic claim that they are doing it for money is laughable. There's no incentive to keep a case open that doesn't need to be. A case worker can easily (too easily) find another case to replace it. In fact, the caseloads are so huge, unfortunately, the opposite is true. Too many cases are closed prematurely, and the results are, too often, disastrous.

[yellowcanine]

70. Well that is her story second hand through the poster here. Not that credible.

[NaturalHigh]

126. +1

Any sympathy I could have worked up for this woman went out the window as soon as I read that she hit her daughter. It's equally galling that some people here are defending her for it.

[UndertheOcean]

5. She physically assaulted her daughter , whatever happened is no excuse for physical assault.

That is the end of the matter.

She can divorce her husband anytime and get on with her life. And let the kids live with someone who does not resort to violence to solve problems.

[mzteris]

21. maybe the "mom" was just playing

"punchbug"

:eyes:

[Codeine]

25. "Drunk one!"

:rofl:

[Codeine]

16. This is why getting drunk, slapping your kids,

and being a whackadoodle when the cops arrive is a bad idea, kids.

A little bit of self-control goes a long way.

Seriously, if you think you know even HALF of the actual true story going on here you're out of your mind, Waiting. Best just to mind your own business and let these people play out their psychodrama alone.

[Dappleganger]

28. The best thing that you can do is just be a good friend.

Love her unconditionally. Tell her the truth, even when it hurts. Push her to get her own counseling (not just a marriage or couple counselor).

Then stand back. This is her life and not yours. Don't let her drag you through her hell because you may wake up in your own.

[BlueIris]

44. I'm not really feeling any sympathy for your friend, here.

What with the physical abuse of her child and all.

[Codeine]

51. I don't even care about the face slap,

so much as the drunken stupidity she exhibited when supposedly in charge of her kids. Someone who can't even calm down and control themselves enough to avoid acting like a blubbering, hysterical dipshit when the cops roll up isn't exactly demonstrating Parent of the Year behavior.

And "I was drunk" is not a fucking excuse.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

55. I'm sorry, but I don't see a problem.

:shrug:

[yellowcanine]

61. You aren't helping your friend by apparently accepting her bad behavior.

Your friend is not innocent here. Her husband may not be either but it was your friend who slapped a 16 year old girl and got belligerent with the police. I am sorry but slapping a 16 year old is not part of being a "loving and attentive mother." And it sounds as if she does have anger issues as well as an alcohol problem. How do you help her? Stop enabling her. True friends don't.
The fact that everyone involved seems to be wrong and your friend is the "victim" should tell you something. I also find it more than a little weird that your friend is sharing details with you about her sex life with her husband and that you feel free to share those same details with anyone who happens to be on the internet. What if someone you know recognizes the story and figures out who is who?

[waiting]

71. Another wow.

She is paying for her actions tht night every day. So excuse me if I don't think that an argument and a slap should destroy a person's life. Even loving and attentive mothers have an occasional bad day, especially when your husband is a messed up and you are going through menapause. As I stated previously, she has never been in any kind of trouble in her life. And i highly doubt that anyone here would know who I am talking about. I stupidly thought that people here might be human and not have the knee jerk reaction that this woman is a monster, which she isn't. Obviously, I was wrong.

[EFerrari]

75. So, are you this person?

[waiting]

80. No, I'm not this person.

If it were me, I would have handled it much differently. Like getting a lawyer immediately, and asking the policeman how he was familiar enough with my kitchen drawers to know when a butter knife looked out of place in one. The charges of domestic violence would have been dropped and DYFS would never have been involved.

[TorchTheWitch]

105. that's exactly what I was thinking

[Codeine]

77. She's not a monster,

but she fucked up, badly. Being a drunken, abusive asshole to your kids and spouse then acting the fool with the cops is indicative of problems, serious problems. Your "friend" going to pay that price.

[yellowcanine]

84. "an argument and a slap". Sorry but from your own testimony it was a lot more than that.

Again, you are bending over backwards to put your friend's bad behavior in the best light and everyone else in the worst light.

The "bad days" of "loving and attentive" mothers do not normally include getting drunk (somehow you left that part out), slapping their 16 year old daughter over a cell phone, and getting arrested by the police because they can't stop yelling and calm down (Left that part out also). "No kind of trouble before"? What about the knife? (yeah I know the charge was dropped but that does not equal "no trouble". And "monster" is your word. I see no one else using it, certainly not me. But again, imo, you are doing this person no favors by constantly excusing bad behavior. You act as if your only choices are to consider her to be a monster as everyone else is doing, by your account, or defend her against all charges as a "loving and attentive mother". If you truly are her friend you will see the contradictions in your position and quit enabling her. A true friend would say, "I am here for you but you need to get some help because this is not normal behavior."

[D-Lee]

72. Here's a try at some helpful advice

Let's start with this observation: Whenever anyone has 3 irresolvable problems in litigation (and it seems almost sure that a judge or judges have been involved with this case, not just a social worker), there is some goal or problem which is not being disclosed.

You could ask your friend what, if anything, she would like you to do to be of assistance. Do that once toward the end of any long conversation.

Other than that, listen to her and keep responding, "That must be hard on you," "sounds painful," and the like. Being neutral and reflective is probably the best thing you can do -- she does need to develop a new way of looking at the issues and a recognition that her current responses are not leading toward a good result.

Accept, at least in your own mind, that the issues involved have been scrutinized by a lot of people and are pretty far down the processing pathway.

It is highly likely that the only realistic things you could do are offer to be interviewed by her lawyer or accompany her in a visit to the social worker's supervisor.

In relation to the social worker, it sounds as if the social worker is trying to implement court directives -- but that does not mean that the social worker might not have a bad attitude. There is always the possibility of asking for the assignment of a different social worker (who will probably have much the same goals but might bring a different spirit to working with your friend or give her a chance to start working on the issues with less of an interaction history and cleaner slate).

Hope that helps.

If you can, read over the comments by other posters and just consider the ones which raise logical points about where your friend's rendition has some holes.

Best of luck! We all need someone in our corner and your friend is lucky to have you.

[waiting]

76. Thank you for your input.

I have offered to be interviewed by her lawyer, but he has trouble returning her calls. And she actually requested a new caseworker this week. I offered to go wth her to her meeting with the case worker, but she was afraid that it would reflect badly on her. She is totally naive about everything. Ii wish that women out there would not allow their husbands to run their finances and be at the whim of them, and would educate themselves about being their own best advocates.

[EFerrari]

74. Yeah, stop miimizing her abusive behavior and tell her to make the most

of her therapy.

"Loving attentive mothers" do not slap their children's faces as a means of communication.

[waiting]

78. She slapped her face because her daughter was physically

pushing and shoving her and screaming in her face to give her the cell phone back. And she should never have slapped her, I don't think it was smart at all. But I have heard the daughter screaming at her before, and she does that because the father doesn't back her up and allows it. And takes her side.

[sui generis]

81. I'll bet you 90 percent of the people who are saintly non-slappers

don't have a teen or are too young to have ever been swatted or smacked by their own parents.

It's something parents do when they're inexperienced and frustrated, not because they are MONSTERS.

Unfortunately there are some seriously judgmental people on this very thread who lack a sympathetic bone in their body.

Don't trust social workers. Escalate the case, or at least give it maximum visibility by writing to state organizations, LTTE's, WHATEVER it takes.

If everything is above board, so be it, but if it's not, things will change rapidly.

[waiting]

82. Yeah, that's what I think as well.

She tld the case worker that she was in touch with her Congressman and he said, "Good, he a good friend of mine". I just hope that this is over for her soon. NJ DYFS can drag this out as long as they like, if she can't get a good attorney who knows how to deal with them. Apparently, NJ is very bad in this department.

[Codeine]

89. This story gets more convoluted and filigreed every moment.

Now the SW has a pet Congressman?

I'm calling endless BS on this tale.

[EFerrari]

85. And you'd lose that bet.

I had a violent parent and dealt with my two sons through their teens on my own. This has nothing to do with saintliness but with getting the situation in hand instead of escalating it.

And there is never "everything is above board" when you're in the hands of social service agencies. They have liability and it's up to YOU to walk through those traps with your own ass intact and hopefully, with your kids', too.

[sui generis]

87. Well you and beetwasher have a nice day

it's a good thing the world and your worldview aren't the same.

I'm sorry about your violent parent. My parents slapped me, but they didn't escalate, and no social worker required. They just grew up.

As a result I have never struck my kid, not because someone told me it was wrong but because I got to learn from watching my parents grow up.

I HAVE seen inappropriate applied social services, a lot. Some social workers are embittered nasty pricks and should be turned out of the profession, and others are really good intelligent AND emotionally intelligent people.

I smell a rat in this woman's case, but mostly I just smell the same old judgmental nasty people who circle every thread I post in.

funny that.

[EFerrari]

90. You betchur @ss, physical violence against children is wrong.

I'm perfectly willing to go on the Judgmental Record with that one.

And sure, this woman may be in a bad situation made much worse by idiots. But first she has to get a handle on herself -- if for no other reason than if she doesn't, she's fair game.

[sui generis]

92. I actually agree with your last sentence

If anger can stir her to slap her kid, it's probably a good idea to take a look at that.

I just part company at the state requiring it without evidence of a pattern, and I am immovable in that opinion.

[EFerrari]

95. The state's only real concern in practical terms is their own liability.

So, I'm not at all saying this lady should simply put herself in the hands of the state. Not at all. That would be the other worse thing she could do.

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[yellowcanine]

88. Sorry but "inexperienced and frustrated" parents can equal a dead child.

How about a "sympathetic bone" for the child getting slapped by a mom who comes home drunk.


I have raised two daughters and I never thought it necessary to smack either one of them across the face no matter how frustrated I was.
Of course I never came home drunk either. I don't know what set off this woman. The kid no doubt was being a shithead. But things don't happen in a vacuum. And getting drunk and slapping a 16 year old over a cell phone, as well as getting arrested for disorderly conduct by the police, is not normal behavior for a parent, however inexperienced or frustrated. Furthermore, the daughter is 16, so the mom has had at least 16 years of experience as a mom and at least 4 years of experience with a teenager. Stop making excuses for her. Experience is not going to do you a whole lot of good if you are looking through a haze of alcohol and anger.

[sui generis]

91. oh you saintly parents.

it's always the worst case situation leaving you gasping in horror.

Sorry - yes it happens but it is definitely NOT the reality for most people. Blanket laws and blanket rules reduce everyone to the lowest common denominator and that's what I see is going on in this thread.

[EFerrari]

94. You seem to be reading a different thread. n/t

[sui generis]

96. I just see the usual superior posturing . . . .

sorry I'm too old and mean to bow and scrape before your august opinion of the way the world SHOULD BE.

I've seen enough of the way it is to know that no single portrait paints the entire picture.

[EFerrari]

100. You're reading something I haven't said.

I never called this lady a monster or prided myself on doing better.

I only pointed out that violence is wrong and that it makes her vulnerable and that she needs to get on top of that if she is going to navigate this situation.

There is nothing "holier than thou" about that. Families get caught up in these cycles and someone has to stop them. If this woman wants her life back, she needs to be that person whether she likes it or whether it's easy or fair or not.

That's just the way families work.

[sui generis]

101. okay I think we're moving towards the middle

I am agreeing with you on the end if not necessarily the state's means in this case.

[EFerrari]

102. I would gladly take this lady in and coach her

after myself having learned how to not only survive the state's intervention -- that reads great on paper but that in practice does nada for a family -- but also how to get help for my family. Nothing like not getting any help AND being under a microscope just to add spice to your adventure.

Yeah, I agree with you on that bit of it.

[yellowcanine]

97. Blanket rules? You mean like "getting drunk and slapping your kid is always wrong"?

Ok, guilty as charged. No excuses. If everyone accepted that "blanket rule" and held others to it there would be a lot fewer messed up kids and DEAD kids. Or have you forgotten that child abuse kills? I am sorry, protecting children means there are some things which are unacceptable. If that makes me a "saintly parent" imposing "blanket rules", so be it. When a person becomes a parent, they take on the responsibility of protecting that child against ANYONE who would do harm to the child, and that includes themselves. Stick that in your saintly parent pipe.

[sui generis]

99. oh wring hands and bow down

we have another life judge.

the outrage the OUTRAGE. ooooh. :eyes:

I hear a lot of should be's here that I don't disagree with. They're just very absolute and not case management case worker style observations that are realistic or can be used constructively.

[Beetwasher]

111. "These New Jersey nutcase social workers are lost, and doing harm, not preventing it."

"I hear a lot of should be's here that I don't disagree with. They're just very absolute and not case management case worker style observations that are realistic or can be used constructively."

You mean "absolute" like the ridiculously ignorant statement of yours in the header of this post? That's certainly constructive. And you gather this from an anonymous poster on the internets who is retelling a story she supposedly got from someone else. Someone, who at the very least, abused their child while drunk and was arrested because she wouldn't cooperate with the police.

Yet, you've ABSOLUTELY determined that: "These New Jersey nutcase social workers are lost, and doing harm, not preventing it."

You are identifying with an abuser. You are defending that abuser. You have admitted to being an abused child yourself. You have a hatred for social workers that can only be deemed as demented.

If you have children, I fear for them.

[waiting]

114. She is not inexperienced, the child is 16.

And she didn't come home to her kids drunk, they were all out at a family party together. she and her daughter had an argument about something that the daughter had done and asn't supposed to do, and the mother took her cell phone as punishment. That's when the kid freaked out about the phone, obviously there were some texts or something that she didn't want her mom to see and she was determined to get the phone back from her. This woman was wrong, I know. But not to the degree that her life should be taken over by DYFS and that her case worker should be telling her husband things that are confidential about her plans to divorce him. He already contols all of the money in the house, and she isn't even able to hire a lawyer, because she's scared that if she takes money out without her husband knwing, he will call the police on her again and she'll lose the kids.

[EFerrari]

83. You are minimizing physical violence.

You do know that, right?

No matter what the father does or what the daughter does, the only person your friend can control is herself. And she needs to start there if she's ever going to get this situation straight for herself or anyone else.

[TorchTheWitch]

109. sorry, you're contradicting yourself

"And she should never have slapped her, I don't think it was smart at all."

BUT...

#7 "She had every right to slap her face."

#17 "However, my 16 year old daughter would get a slap in the face if she was physically assaulting me."

#23 "No one is perfect. Believe me , one slap in the face does not equal child abuse."


Sorry, but I just don't believe you are talking about a neighbor/friend. You are not only totally absorbed in this dysfunctional family, you've taken on every aspect of the emotions of the "friend" and report intimate details as fact that it would be exceedingly odd for you to not only be aware of as someone not actually involved but every aspect of the emotions of that "friend". Every single thing you have reported about these people is far too intimate and far too absorbed in the emotions of the "friend" so much so that your outrage and defensiveness are exactly that of the "friend" you describe. You even mention that your daughter's best friend in the abusive daughter in the "other" family yet it has not even occurred to you to have a problem with your daughter being so close to someone who physically abuses her mother especially over something as absurd as a cellphone.

If this "friend" really isn't yourself and you just don't want to admit it then you've so deeply taken on the emotions of the "friend" that you've absorbed her character and dysfunction and other family problems including all the legal aspects that it might as well be you. Either way, you need to get the hell out of this abusive and dysfunctional family.

[waiting]

113. My kid has never gotten physical with me.

And I am married to her father and we aren't going through marital difficulties, nor am I going through menapause. If my daughter freaked out and started screaming at me and shoving me even though I told her to stop and she wouldn't, while her father was watching and did nothing, I might do the wrong thing and slap her in the face. I sympathize with this woman because her bad marriage was affecting her entire family, and she made one mistake and during a meltdown smacked her kid. The reason the police came was because her husband called them on her. Even I know how to handle a person who drank to much, without calling the police and getting the system involved. It certainly helped him to achive the upper hand in their domestic issues and to put her completely under his control. The daughter totally sides with her mother and wants her father out of the house. DYFS never removed the children from the home and it was the husband who made the accusation of her threatening him, and the only evidence of any threat when the police got there, was that she was angry at having the cops called on her by her husband. They didn't have any evidence of any fight or threat other than his word. And the reason I know so much about it is because during the aftermath of this, I have been helping with the younger kid and I see this mom every day. I hear all about it, and I heard the argument when it happened. No one is perfect, but these kids are not at risk of violence, they just need their parents to break up and move on, which they can't do right now due to DYFS.

[Beetwasher]

116. Listen, I Am Going To Assume You Are Legit

I don't know why, maybe I'm feeling magnanimous, but here's the deal.

The best you can do right now is be there to support your friend. However, do not assume everything she's telling you is truthful. She may very well be constructing her own version of events in order to justify her actions to you. Then again, it could all be completely true, but you are too emotionally involved in the situation to make that determination.

That's just the way it is. You can not assume everything she says about the situation is factual. And she may not even be lying. She may actually believe what she's saying, but it still may not be a factual interpretation of actual events.

You do not know what went on in that house. Period. What you know is a very small part of any picture.

Additionally, you do not know for sure what anyone who is involved or investigating this case actually said to her. What you are told is her personal and very emotionally impacted interpretation of what was said. And it is filtered through YOUR emotionally impacted perception of events.

Be there for your friend, but let the system work it out.

I don't how long this has been going on for, but it seems not that long. These events NEED to be taken seriously by the authorities. There is allegation of child abuse. There is past history of alleged violence. By your own admission, she was drunk and abused her child, with you as witness. These are all strong signals and indicators to ANY authorities that this case needs to be investigated seriously. Your friend NEEDS to let them investigate and come to a determination and she needs to cooperate with authorities and submit to any recommended counseling. That is the best and most efficient way out of this for her.

It is actually in DYFS's best interests (from a fiscal/budgetary standpoint) to get this case resolved as quickly as possible. They are NOT after the money. There are hundreds (if not more) cases that can replace this one. Easily. Trust me (or don't).

As far as what your friend says about the case worker, this is not unusual. Your friend sees him as the enemy who is trying to destroy her family and butting his nose in where it doesn't belong and her perceptions about him would be colored by that, as would yours.

If there is really a problem with an incompetent or corrupt case worker, then that is an issue she needs to take to her lawyer and the judge. You have to realize that there is NEVER any ONE person in control and making decisions in these situations. If there is really an issue with a corrupt case worker, there is recourse and she should pursue it. However, YOU have to realize that you cannot take anything your friend says as absolutely factual. There's too much emotional investment on her and YOUR part to be in any way objective about the situation.

But my advice to you is to maintain as minimal involvement as possible. It is really not your business and you don't know what really went on in that house. If you want to be an ear for your friend, be an ear, but don't feed her possible fantasies about corrupt, power hungry social workers. Those animals don't exist and it is not constructive.

[waiting]

121. Thank you

But I haven't fed her things about corrupt case workers. She has gone along with everything DYFS has asked her to, and been evaluated more than once over the past 7 months. She has asked for a different case worker, and I hope that they honor her request. I don't know how that works or if they even have to consider her request. How can he claim that there is an issue when each of the requirements and request DYFS has given her, she has completed, and those people overseeing them have cleared her? How long does this take and why does he keep adding a new requirement after she has successfully completed them all? And how can he force her to go to marriage counseling now, knowing that she is absolutely going to get a divorce? You can't force people to stay married that don't want to be married because you claim that it's in the best interest of the child.

[Beetwasher]

155. Sorry, But If You're Story Is Legit, DYFS Is Doing The Right Thing

And handling this case with caution.

I have no more advice for you. Take it or leave it. You are too emotionally involved to see this rationally and whatever you think you know, you don't know all the details or past history and you are not an expert on the subject. You have no idea what was said to your supposed neighbor by the officials involved, you only know what she told you was said, which may not be anything close to factual.

[NaturalHigh]

159. Very true.

Frankly, I just don't believe most of the OP.

[TorchTheWitch]

123. you're still doing it

This is either your own family or you are entirely too emotionally involved in another family - to the point of absorbing the emotions, pain and ugliness of the "friend" in that dysfunctional family that it MAY AS WELL BE you. Whichever it is (and regardless of your claims to the contrary I believe this is you and your family) you MUST get away from it.

DYFS is not keeping this couple from breaking up and not even YOU believe that since you've already laid all blame on the husband for being controlling, abusive and hording all the money. Just like the "friend" you've laid blame on EVERYONE ELSE for why this "friend's" life is so messed up to the point of contradicting yourself and flat out making shit up. There is NO WAY that DYFS is FORCING this couple to remain together. That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard of and exactly an excuse I'd expect from someone telling their OWN story as though it were that of a fictitious "friend". It's exactly the excuse of someone trying to make it someone else's fault as to why they stayed in such a mess in order to finally get to this point.

GET OUT. Get out of this family's horrible dysfunction even if it is YOUR family - ESPECIALLY if it is your family. How can you not see that all the way through this thread from the opening OP is absolutely overflowing with anger, pain, intimate details, contradictions, blame throwing, excuse making and all the raw emotions of someone who is talking about themselves? I'd actually have more sympathy if this IS you and your family rather than your claims that it's a "friend" and her family because frankly getting THIS deeply involved in some other family's dysfunction to the degree you have displayed is just NUTS.

[zorahopkins]

98. Could You Be A Go-Between?

Perhaps you could offer to be a go-between between your friend and DYFS.

It sounds as though you really know your friend, and that you really want to help her out of this terrible situation she is in.

You also seem to be a reasonable person who is able to see things as they really are.

Perhaps you could offer to work with her and with DYFS to arrive at some sort of agreement that both your friend and DYFS could live with.

That way, your friend would not have the stress of dealing with DYFS. You could be the person that DYFS would contact, and you could be your friend's advocate with DYFS. You might be better able to do this (instead of your friend).

That's my suggestion.

I do hope things work out well for your friend.

[pitohui]

115. "she wouldn't calm down & cooperate"

it's too late, the time for her to help herself was when hubby called the police and she "wouldn't calm down & cooperate with their request to be quiet"

sorry, but if you're 49 and haven't yet figured out that when the cops are called on yr happy ass, you'd better be sweet as sugar and STFU and stop yelling, then nobody can help you

the trouble is, if someone can't cooperate, can't calm down, can't talk calmly, and the other party wants a retraining order against their threats...the police are going to believe the other party, who is calm and in control, instead of the freaking out-of-control person and i for one don't quite blame them

i have to decide, if the calm person is lying or if the screaming angry person is delusional...my vote is prob gonna be the screaming angry person is the problem

yr friend fucked up her own life and you can't save her, she's already been in court-ordered anger management etc. her crediblity in the world is shot forever, she's fucked, she just has to STFU and behave herself if that's at all possible

you may say, well, hubby slaps the daughter, nothing happens, everybody in yr hood slaps their daughter, they don't get sent to jail or anger management, but yr friend went too far, what she did was technically illegal even if most of the time it isn't prosecuted, she was just too in the cop's face abt the child abuse -- as a former beaten child i can't be totally upset that once in awhile by accident the police actually ticket somebody for beating the crap out of their kid

[shimmergal]

117. I can't believe the arrogance in

a lot of the comments here!

First, while it's true that waiting can't know everything that's going on in that family, she surely has more knowledge about it than those who are analyzing it third-hand, based only on what is said in the OP. And who apparently live in such a wonderfully ordered world that nobody ever raises a hand to another, not even in a gentle slap of rebuke?

And where do some commenters get the idea that the woman was drunk? The OP says she had SOME WINE beforehand at a party. That does not necessarily equate to being drunk; it could well have been only two or three sips. Or do those who judge all incidents of family "dysfunction" to be alike also believe that whenever someone's lips touch alcohol, the person immediately gets drunk?

I truly can't know what's going on, but it seems just as likely that the daughter's acting out was because she's seen her father do it, and thus waiting's friend has become the designated hit-tee or scapegoat of the family. In that case--if this is the first time she's defended herself-- it might have started to turn the tide, at least if police and DYFS hadn't gotten involved. But you can't count on that.

However, D-Lee has some good suggestions. The only other suggestion I'd make is that the friend contact a Women's Center. They're the only entity likely to be able to defend or otherwise help her wholeheartedly, and quite possibly the only ones who can help her handle it if indeed her husband's domineering behavior is a core issue. Some of those guys can fool both cops and social workers.

Good luck, to you and her.

[waiting]

119. Thank you!

I do think that she had too much to drink that day. But I have never seen her have too much to drink before.I think that the husband's treatment of her and her daughter's disrespect and physicality just pushed her too far. And yes, the daughter's acting out has a lot to do with her father and the way he trets his wife. She has contacted a women's center and I hope is finding someone that will advocate for her with the real facts, not the ones that her husband provides.

[lumberjack_jeff]

128. .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8246576&mesg_id=8246705

You needed to read downthread past the OP.

The facts as waiting has described them;
The friend got drunk and slapped the daughter. The cops were called to domestic dispute, cops find that she hit the daughter and was belligerent with the cops. They also find probable cause that she threatened dad with a knife. Dad obtained a protective order on the basis of her demonstrated violence. She accepted a plea bargain and is now uncooperative with counselors.

I hope waiting's friend can get her life straightened out, but it's not going to happen so long as people continue to justify and defend that behavior.

[Lance_Boyle]

167. Where do we get the idea that she was drunk? Post #8, by the OP - 'she was drunk'

One of the OP's stories, anyway, pretty clearly says the woman was drunk.

[NaturalHigh]

118. She slapped her daughter in the face?

It seems to me that she needed to be investigated by DYFS. As for the husband, how do you know he was lying to the police? All the details here seem a little murky. You've made everyone in this story out to be a bad guy except for your friend, even though she was the one who, by your own admission, assaulted her daughter.

[waiting]

120. You cannot possibly say that

when you don't know any of them. And while she did slap her daughter, the punishment far exceeds that action. Just ask her kids. And ask them who should leave and who they want to live with. In this case, and in many others, not knowing or having been present at the time of the incident keeps you from actually seeing things the way that they really are. I know a mentally abusive man when I am around him for long enough, and he has actually hit his wife in the past and has gotten a DUI, so I can see who has the real problem here. She just needs DYFS to close her case and a good divorce attorney, instead of how this is dragging on and on.

[NaturalHigh]

125. No, I don't know these people personally...

but if a drunken woman slaps her daughter and then flips out when the police arrive, it's fair to say that she needs to be investigated. As far as the story of the DYFS worker telling her to sleep with her husband more often, do you have any way to substantiate that story? Let's face it; that's a pretty wild tale.

[Maat]

140. As a retired CPS worker, that's the part of the story I highly doubt.

That was undoubtedly told to the OP, but I do think that it's baloney.

In my experience, child protective agencies do not get involved in a case merely because a minor was slapped. Physical discipline is legal in most states. It's sort an exception to the assault-and-battery laws, in a way.

My guess is that something much more threatening happened.

[NaturalHigh]

141. When I was a teacher, I dealt with a lot of social workers.

I know that a lot of people being investigated by social services will make up some absolutely crazy stories. In this case, I believe that most of the story is exaggerated or just plain made up. I absolutely do not believe that a social worker told her to go home and screw her husband more often.

[Maat]

149. Neither do I believe that a social worker told her to do that.

She's spreading baloney.

[shedevil69taz]

122. Thanks for the story

it gives me even more reason to never ever live in New Jersey.

[Maat]

129. That's so odd.

This retired CPS worker, when active, wouldn't even have kept the case open, and probably would have unfounded the abuse allegation.

My, things have changed!

I really, really, really diagree with the way this case is being handled.

Remember, folks, physical discipline is technically legal; you may regard this as inappropriate, but Mom did not violate the law here. It should only become a CPS-related concern when there has been serious physical harm, and when a minor remains in danger of imminent, serious physical harm.

If someone threatens another family member with a knife, that's a VERY different situation.

[TexasObserver]

133. Abusive alcoholic terrorizes family.

Maybe you should look at it with clear, unbiased eyes.

One version is she's a victim. Another version is she's a holy terror.

[Meldread]

143. Ugh. The only reason I'm posting here is for the children.

Whether or not she was right or wrong, whether or not she's a victim or not, it's all irrelevant. What is absolutely clear is that their marriage is toxic and that more situations like this, larger and smaller, are bound to happen in the future.

First, I'm going to say that you sound like you're too close to the issue to be non-biased and offer real help. Certainly, you're capable of moral support for your friend, and that's a good thing, but the real focus should be on what's best for the children.

Second, you need to get in touch with a shelter for women that deals with domestic abuse cases. Do this on behalf of your friend, and tell them your story. Ask for advice on what she should do. They deal with situations like this all the time, and therefore can give you professional guidance. They might even be able to give you a list of people your friend can contact immediately for help, including a lawyer who is willing to be very flexible with payment and/or work for free. Don't make the assumption that just because the husband controls the checkbook that she doesn't have a right to access the funds. A lawyer can help with that.

The shelter will be able to give you the best advice that you can receive.

Once you've gotten answers to your questions and proper guidance on how to proceed, you can then inform your friend about the information and then let her make her own choice. After that it's out of your hands.

[seabeyond]

147. move out. get a job. let hubby take care of the kids. kid service cannot

make her live with husband. maybe why it got to that point with 16 yr old is cause she bends over backwards for the ids and allows hubby and kids to walk all over her.

spine