Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Halliburton completed cementing of well 20 hours prior to explosion

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU
 
seafan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-10 02:56 PM
Original message
Halliburton completed cementing of well 20 hours prior to explosion
Halliburton confirms the cementing job on the Gulf rig:


April 30, 2010



-- Halliburton performed a variety of services on the rig, including cementing, and had four employees stationed on the rig at the time of the accident. Halliburton's employees returned to shore safely, due, in part, to the brave rescue efforts by the U.S. Coast Guard and other organizations.

-- Halliburton had completed the cementing of the final production casing string in accordance with the well design approximately 20 hours prior to the incident. The cement slurry design was consistent with that utilized in other similar applications.

-- In accordance with accepted industry practice approved by our customers, tests demonstrating the integrity of the production casing string were completed.

-- At the time of the incident, well operations had not yet reached the point requiring the placement of the final cement plug which would enable the planned temporary abandonment of the well, consistent with normal oilfield practice.

.....



Drilling Process Attracts Scrutiny in Rig Explosion

WSJ
April 30, 2010


.....

According to Transocean Ltd., the operator of the drilling rig, Halliburton had finished cementing the 18,000-foot well shortly before the explosion. Houston-based Halliburton is the largest company in the global cementing business, which accounted for $1.7 billion, or about 11%, of the company's revenue in 2009, according to consultant Spears & Associates.

.....

The timing of the cementing in relation to the blast—and the procedure's history of causing problems—point to it as a possible culprit in the Deepwater Horizon disaster, experts said.
"The initial likely cause of gas coming to the surface had something to do with the cement," said Robert MacKenzie, managing director of energy and natural resources at FBR Capital Markets and a former cementing engineer in the oil industry.

.....

A 2007 study by three U.S. Minerals Management Service officials found that cementing was a factor in 18 of 39 well blowouts in the Gulf of Mexico over a 14-year period. That was the single largest factor, ahead of equipment failure and pipe failure.

The Halliburton cementers would have sought approval for their plans—the type of cement and how much would be used—from a BP official on board the rig before carrying out their job. Scott Dean, a BP spokesman, said it was premature to speculate on the role cement might have played in the disaster.

Halliburton also was the cementer on a well that suffered a big blowout last August in the Timor Sea, off Australia. The rig there caught fire and a well leaked tens of thousands of barrels of oil over 10 weeks before it was shut down. The investigation is continuing; Halliburton declined to comment on it.
Elmer P. Danenberger, who had recently retired as head of regulatory affairs for the U.S. Minerals Management Service, told the Australian commission looking into the blowout that a poor cement job was probably the reason oil and natural gas gushed out of control.



For a window into Halliburton's role in the cement failure leading to the third-largest oil spill disaster in Australia's history in August, 2009, here is an article describing what happened, followed by excerpts of legal depositions taken of 1) the Halliburton cement contractor on this job, and 2) of the "Company Man" for Halliburton's client at that time, PTTEP Australasia, who admitted miscalculating the volume of cement needed on this job.




Montara: Poor decisions led to massive oil spill

Monday, 22 March 2010


Sydney. After a week of hearings at the federal inquiry into Australia's third-largest oil spill, it is becoming clear the blow-out at the Montara well was caused by a chain of poor decisions and miscalculations.
Up to 2,000 barrels of oil and gas spewed from the Montara well into the Timor Sea every day for 10 weeks from August 21 last year.
But a picture is emerging that shows decisions made in the months leading up to the accident are to blame for the incident off Western Australia.

In February 2009, a West Atlas rig began drilling the well hundreds of kilometres off the Kimberley coast.
The Thai-based owner of the well, PTTEP Australasia, called for operations to be suspended in March so it could focus on other wells it owned in the Montara field.
This is where the project stopped going to plan.

PTTEP used pressure caps instead of a cement plug to temporarily stop the flow from the well.

That decision was approved by the Northern Territory Department of Resources in just 30 minutes, and the inquiry has raised questions about whether the agency acted diligently enough when regulating the oil company's operations.
Two pressure caps were authorised to be used on the well as barriers, but only one was ever installed and, contrary to good oil field practice, it was never tested.

In his opening statement, counsel assisting the inquiry, Tom Howe, QC, said: "No one has been able to provide, to this point, a satisfactory explanation to the inquiry as to why the cap was not installed."
A senior manager from Atlas Drilling, David Gouldin, has told the inquiry that the installation of the cap remained on a to-do list on a whiteboard in an office on the rig until the blow-out.

When the West Atlas drilling team returned to the well in August, workers removed the existing cap for cleaning. It was never reinstalled. Hours later, the well kicked and began releasing an uncontrolled flow of oil and gas that would not be blocked for months.

Inadequate cementing

In addition to the missing pressure cap, further problems arose with the well's cement casing.
Cement is used to set the drilling pipe in place and to ensure oil and gas does not leak into the surrounding ocean.

But while 199 barrels of cement should have been used to achieve the "top of cement" standard practice on the Montara well, only 133 barrels were used.

Even more mistakes appear to have occurred when that cement casing was tested.

Extra cement was pumped into the well in a test designed to check if the casing was full.
When the liquid flowed back as expected, it was thought to be pure cement. It has now emerged that the fluid was contaminated with seawater.

That mistake significantly weakened the strength of the casing as a barrier.

PTTEP supervisor Noel Treasure has told the inquiry that he "miscalculated" the volume of cement.

And while figures indicating the mistake were emailed to managers at both Atlas Drilling and PTTEP, it has been suggested there was not sufficient scrutiny of the information by on-shore personnel.
Atlas Drilling rig manager Donald Miller told the inquiry that he received the figures in a daily drilling report, but he did not focus enough on the report nor give it sufficient weight.

'Nervous and upset'

During his evidence, Mr Treasure came under fire for failing to sign the first statement he made about the accident.
As the most senior representative from PTTEP working on the rig in the lead up to the spill, Mr Treasure made a draft witness statement in the week before the inquiry.
But instead of substantiating the statement, Mr Treasure chose instead to submit an amended statutory declaration.

When questioned about this, Mr Treasure told the inquiry he was frightened about civil liability.

"I was nervous and I was upset," he said.
"I was worried about it, because I went through and checked some of my records afterwards ... and some of the stuff I said in the statement was incorrect."

Mr Treasure says he spoke to a senior PTTEP executive about his draft statement in the week before the inquiry began, but he says the executive did not ask him to change his statement.

As well as the cause of the spill, the inquiry will attempt to uncover why it took almost three months for the leak to be stopped.

It will also hear evidence about the environmental consequences of the accident and the current regulatory system for the offshore petroleum industry.



The cement contractor working for Halliburton was David Arthur Doeg.


Deposition of DAVID ARTHUR DOEG, March, 2010

.....

I am currently a self employed cementer.

8 As a cementer, I work on Off Shore Drilling Rigs mixing batches of cement and pumping it down well holes. The exact work depends on the tasks being undertaken at the time.
9 I have been self employed since 1 October 2009.
10 I first worked for Halliburton Australia Pty Ltd (Halliburton) as a cementer in about 1988, until about 2000. From 2000 until 2006, I worked on and off for Halliburton as a cementer while I studied and then worked as a primary school teacher.

11 I resumed working full time with Halliburton in about 2006.

12 When I was working for Halliburton on 7 March 2009 I was engaged through a labour hire company, Adecco Industrial Pty Ltd. Halliburton's client at that time was PTTEP Australasia (Ashmore Cartier) Pty Ltd (PTTEPAA). Prior to about the end of February 2009, PTTEPAA had been known as Coogee Resources Ltd.

13 On 1 October 2009 I set up my own business in Australia and since that time I have provided my services directly to Halliburton as ‘contract staff’.
14 I have only ever provided cementing services to Halliburton.

15 I had worked on the West Atlas rig (the Rig) for over a year and a half prior to 7 March 2009 and had probably done up to 100 cement jobs on that Rig alone. When I am working as a cementer I usually receive my day to day instructions from the Company Man on the Rig.

16 The “Company Man” is a common industry term for the client’s representative
on the Rig. In this case the Company Man was a PTTEPAA employee Noel
Treasure.

.....



Mr. Doeg further responds to questions about his work in March, 2009 on this rig:


The volume and type of cement slurry pumped into the H1 ST-1 Well for this purpose and whether this was adequate

75 I have no involvement with determining the type of cement slurry or the top of cement. I made a calculation as to the volume of slurry and provided it to the Company Man to allow him to verify his own calculations. My calculations were based on information provided to me by the Company Man. That information included the estimated top of cement for tail slurry, lead slurry and tuned spacer, hole sizes, excess and casing internal diameter. . There was nothing I observed at the time to suggest that the volume or type of cement slurry used was inappropriate or inadequate.
76 Nor do I believe that the calculations I provided to the Company Man were inadequate based on the information provided to me.

Whether such matters were carried out in accordance with Halliburton and/or PTTEP Australasia (Ashmore Cartier) Pty Ltd (PTTEPAA) standards, regulatory requirements and/or best practice

77 I can only repeat the above.

The possible consequences of such matters

78 The consequences of putting the wrong volume of cement slurry into the well are that the top of cement for both the tail and lead may not be in the desired or specified location. However, volumes are generally calculated with an excess built in to the final volume of slurry specified in the casing cement job as set out in PTTEPAA’s Standing Instructions to Drillers. I only received a paper copy of this and I cannot find it. I most probably left it on the Rig.
79 Using the wrong type of slurry could create a potentially adverse situation with decreased hydrostatic pressures. Although, in this case I believe both the lead and tail slurries were designed to be compatible with potential reservoirs, it is the tail slurry that offers the initial strength.

.....

The relevant standards (including best practice), instructions or directions relating
to the cementing of the 244mm casing in the H1 ST-1 Well, including but not limited
to any directions or instructions issued by:

i. Halliburton;
ii. PTTEPAA; and/or
iii. Seadrill Management (S) Pte Ltd (Seadrill) / Atlas Drilling (S) Pte Ltd
(Atlas).


88 I am not aware of any formal PTTEPAA or Seadrill/Atlas Drilling standards that
applied to the work I was doing. I carried out the work in accordance with my
training and what I consider to be proper industry standards.
89 As far as I recall, the instructions and directions I received were those referred
to by me above and the Standing Instructions to Drillers.







The "Company Man" was a PTTEPAA employee Noel Treasure.


Deposition of NOEL EDWARD TREASURE, October 15, 2009

......

MR TREASURE: I'm Noel Treasure, drilling supervisor on the West Atlas for
PTTEP. My age is 50 years of age.

.....

I am a consultant to PTTEP, and my company name is Crestline
Nominees.

.....

Yes, I am (a director of that company).

.....

MR MOORE: ..... Qualifications: do you have any
qualifications?
45 MR TREASURE: No. I finished Guilford Grammar School and joined the oil
industry.

.....

MR MOORE: Okay, yeah. And you say that you're currently contracted to PTTEP.
How long have been working for PTTEP?

MR TREASURE: I've been working since March '08.
MR MOORE: March '08. And in what capacity have you been working with - - -
5 MR TREASURE: As drilling supervisor.

.....

MR MOORE: Who does the cement calculations?
MR TREASURE: I do the cement calculations; Halliburton does the cement
calculations.
45 MR MOORE: Yeah. What do you mean by cement calculations?
MR TREASURE: The cement calculations is the displacement of cement that we
have to have in the hole to be able to cement the casing in a correct position.

.....

MR MOORE: Okay. And, in addition, you would have been working to a
cementing program?
MR TREASURE: That's correct.
15 MR MOORE: And who would have prepared that cementing program?
MR TREASURE: Halliburton




Only time will tell whether Halliburton will ever be held accountable for its actions.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-10 03:00 PM
Response to Original message
1. Pretty Damning Stuff, Sir
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-10 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Certainly looks like it.
It would have to be one heck of a coincidence otherwise.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-10 03:03 PM
Response to Original message
3. Great job, Brownie! nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
theophilus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-10 03:03 PM
Response to Original message
4. Uh oh. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Botany Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-10 03:04 PM
Response to Original message
5. Bad enough that they electrocuted our G.I.s w/ the showers in iraq ......
.... but now this?

:grr:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-10 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. Didn't they also feed them rotten food?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-10 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Yes and contaminated water. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-10 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #12
25. yes with dirt and dried blood in it!! but it was the KBR division. eom
Edited on Fri Apr-30-10 06:37 PM by flyarm
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-10 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #25
44. lovely bunch aren't they...
:puke:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-10 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #12
49. Yeah, when they got food, that is.
They refused to deliver food to certain areas, so the military did what it had always done before Cheney privatized food service and delivered it themselves.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
truth2power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-10 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #5
46. I was thinking the same thing as I was reading the OP...
Halliburton doesn't have a very good track record.

How many chances would YOU get in your job to say, "I didn't know. We couldn't have predicted", BLAH BLAH BLAH, before they'd FIRE your ass?

Oh, wait...it's Darth Cheney's Co. He's above the law.

Well, never mind, then. Just move along.... :mad:


P.S. And people think he wouldn't have done 9/11?? :rofl:

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
felinetta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-10 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #46
64. I sent an email to Liz Cheney telling her she must be so proud of
her father.  Asked her if he will comment and if so, how he
will spin it in order to blame others.
Told her I hope he is watching the devastation since he worked
so hard for this disaster of epic
proportions.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
truth2power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-10 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #64
68. Good for you!! not that these vermin would care...
The Cheneys (all of them) have a grandiose sense of entitlement. Sick.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-10 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
6. Thank you for putting this together, seafan.
Great job.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-10 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. ditto
Great, great job.:thumbsup:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sixmile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-10 03:07 PM
Response to Original message
7. amazing photos of the catastrophe via Boston Globe
Edited on Fri Apr-30-10 03:08 PM by sixmile
http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2010/04/oil_spill_approaches_louisiana.html


Two brown pelicans and a flock of seagulls rest on the shore of Ship Island as a boom line floats just offshore Thursday, April 29, 2010 in Gulfport, Miss. Several hundred yards of boom line has been set up on the north side of the island to try and contain the oncoming oil spill. Crews are placing the boom in different areas on Coast waterways to help protect against an approaching oil slick in the Gulf of Mexico.


Birds fly above and sit on a shoal surrounded by oil booms on Breton Sound Island on the southern most tip of the Chandeleur Islands in the Gulf of Mexico south of Louisiana where oil leaking from the Deepwater Horizon wellhead continues to spread on April 29, 2010.

More at link
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Holy Moly Donating Member (86 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-10 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #7
48. Let us pray
Unfortunately, the weather forecasts are for continued heavy seas that will defeat all the booms and strong winds blowing in a direction to drive the oil slick of death directly into the shores full of doomed wildlife. So I'm praying for merciful God to do all that He mercifully can to spare all the innocent little creatures and their dependent "Palinoid drill baby drill" fishermen from His impending disaster. Afterall, for the greatest male intelligent designer ever told, who effortlessly parted the waters of the Red Sea to salvation His highly chosen people from impending mass extermination, shifting the Gulf winds to a less murderous direction to save a few lowly unchosen animals from impending mass extinction should be as easy as granting President Cock Cheney's prayers for an unprovoked war of aggression to enrich his stash of Halliburton stock options.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ticonderoga Donating Member (489 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-10 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #48
51. I'm not a man of prayer
But I will bow my head for this one.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-10 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #7
60. I've heard 90 days to shut down this well? Let's face it, we're involved in doing
Edited on Sat May-01-10 01:19 PM by defendandprotect
things we're really not up to doing -- we know how to make a huge mess but not clean

it up!!

And, when it comes to the environment, none of this risk is worth it!!

Where would we begin to hold anyone accountable for this - $$$$$$$$$$$ -- who wants

to trade the planet and animal life for worthless dollars!!



PS: Truly frightening photos -- !!!

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-10 03:13 PM
Response to Original message
9. I wondered by Rush was worried that Halliburton might get mixed up in this
I supposed Dickie Deferment might be concerned, too. After all, Halliburton was about to go belly up at the end of 2002, which would have endangered Cheney's fat pension and severance package unless Halliburton could get a really good cash flow started, and that right quick.

But maybe he's already drawn all his pay, so whatever happens to the company now isn't his concern.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Xenotime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-10 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #9
17. You listen to Rush?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-10 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. No, but there's another thread
Rush is apparently launching a pre-emptive strike, saying he wouldn't be surprised if the godless commies and the libruls dragged poor beleaguered Halliburton into this, when they didn't do nothin'. It struck me as rather an odd thing to say, until the facts developed that our good friends at Halliburton had been involved with the platform just hours before it exploded and that Halliburton had similarly been involved with another oil platform that had a spot of unpleasantness, as detailed in the OP.

It certainly wrecks the developing right wing conspiracy theory that the Obama administration deliberately blew up the platform for some nefarious reason.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-10 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #21
62.  . . . and how ridiculous for any right winger to suggest that the liberals who
Edited on Sat May-01-10 01:23 PM by defendandprotect
show concern for the planet/environment and wild life would try to do harm to it!!

That kind of "false flag" operation is more a right wing thing -- 9/11 MIHOP.

Meanwhile, a guy who couldn't care less about the planet/environment and is in

constant denial of Global Warming is willing to throw out another outrageous lie!!

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-10 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
10. Well if any one company knows how to fuck things up better than
Halliburton, I don't know who it be.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-10 03:24 PM
Response to Original message
11. Ten weeks????
Halliburton also was the cementer on a well that suffered a big blowout last August in the Timor Sea, off Australia.The rig there caught fire and a well leaked tens of thousands of barrels of oil over 10 weeks before it was shut down.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-10 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
13. And therein lies the answers to most all the questions to be raised
dickies boys didn't quite do a stellar job there now did they. Well it looks to me like the cementing is where the problem lies
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-10 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. I wonder what Cheney's current relationship with haliburton is...
does anybody know? I wonder what his role in setting the policies and procedures that led to this was both as VP and as Ceo.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-10 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #15
22. Being the unscrupulous one that he is I'm sure he is still pulling some shots there
His being who he is gives them much latitude to do as they please.

My bet is if he's still aware after his last health scare that he's on the phone barking orders.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
felinetta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-10 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #15
65. And I still want the complete details of Cheney's secret energy meeting years ago.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Xenotime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-10 04:22 PM
Response to Original message
16. It's time to shut that company down.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
global1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-10 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #16
39. Ohhh - It's Probably Too Big To Fail........(sarcasm) nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-10 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
18. A little kick so I can read this later.
Thanks for putting this together.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tbredbeck Donating Member (95 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-10 04:29 PM
Response to Original message
19. I don't like Halliburton either, but...
... this information implicates the operating company, not Halliburton. It was there call to not plug the well correctly. Also, cement jobs, as this information included, are planned by the company.

The cement job may have been part of the problem in the GOM BP well, but we don't know yet and it would have been BP's responsibility anyway. The bigger question pertains to the BOP and why it failed to shut in the well, and subsequently why is there no Plan B for when a blow out happens?

Yes, there are reasons to not like Halliburton. Many reasons. Doesn't look to me like this is one of them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-10 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Others including WSJ are pointing to Halliburton:
Halliburton May Be Culprit In Oil Rig Explosion
Huffington Post First Posted: 04-30-10 10:43 AM | Updated: 04-30-10 03:59 PM





Giant oil-services provider Halliburton may be a primary suspect in the investigation into the oil rig explosion that has devastated the Gulf Coast, the Wall Street Journal reports.

Though the investigation into the explosion that sank the Deepwater Horizon site is still in its early stages, drilling experts agree that blame probably lies with flaws in the "cementing" process -- that is, plugging holes in the pipeline seal by pumping cement into it from the rig. Halliburton was in charge of cementing for Deepwater Horizon.

"The initial likely cause of gas coming to the surface had something to do with the cement," said Robert MacKenzie, managing director of energy and natural resources at FBR Capital Markets and a former cementing engineer in the oil industry.

The problem could have been a faulty cement plug at the bottom of the well, he said. Another possibility would be that cement between the pipe and well walls didn't harden properly and allowed gas to pass through it.


The possibility of Halliburton's culpability was first reported Monday by HuffPost's Marcus Baram.

According to a lawsuit filed in federal court by Natalie Roshto, whose husband Shane, a deck floor hand, was thrown overboard by the force of the explosion and whose body has not yet been located, Halliburton is culpable for its actions prior to the incident.

The suit claims that the company "prior to the explosion, was engaged in cementing operations of the well and well cap and, upon information and belief, improperly and negligently performed these duties, which was a cause of the explosion."

-snip
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tbredbeck Donating Member (95 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-10 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. no actual evidence in wsj

This is speculation by a guy who was not there and a claim in a lawsuit. Cementing is technically complicated and can fail. The BOP is simple: slam shut when activated.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
xfundy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-10 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. Wow, you sure seem interested in keeping blame from Cheney's "old" company.
Why's that?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tbredbeck Donating Member (95 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-10 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. no
As I said, I don't care about Halliburton. If an actual investigation implicates them, fine, and I'll be lobbying for their liability too. In the meantime, involvement does not equal blame.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Arctic Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-10 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #26
31. I am third generation in the the oilfield.
The poster is actually correct in his assessment. There are a lot of reason why things can go bad while drilling, anyone saying they know why this particular well blew is totally full of bull.

Many things failed here, man, machine and I would also include, SOP.

Halliburton in the end will most likely share in the balme of this F up, so will a lot of other companies.

Know this though, on a drilling rig, the Company Man is god, ALL parts of the operation are approved by them BEFORE the are initiated. BP is the most culpable here, they were in charge.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tbredbeck Donating Member (95 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #31
70. yep...
Agreed, it's hard to explain the Company Man to people who haven't been to a well-site.

My main point, which I made poorly, is that we're sticking a pipe into a highly pressured and hostile environment. Even a "good" cement job can fail for lots of reasons beyond anyone's control. This is why the rig is *ALWAYS* supposed to be ready for a sudden event like this with multiple safety backups which, apparently, all either failed or weren't activated.

This whole episode is depressing as hell, though, to say the least. In the past I've actually defended the industry and supported the assertion that drilling is done safely. Of course, I was assuming they were doing things like using the best available BOP, following all the regulations, and having a plan for when something like this eventually happens.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-10 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #26
45. When I think of the nutfuckery of Halliburton shooteminthefaceDick always immediately
comes to mind. Wanna make something of that? :shrug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
felinetta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-10 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #45
67. They stole the election from Al Gore and these are the results. Thank you so bloody much!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
frylock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-10 06:32 PM
Response to Original message
24. knr
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
suffragette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-10 06:40 PM
Response to Original message
27. I posted this yesterday and it sank like a stone
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8241751

You did a great job of bringing together the pieces.

Glad to see it getting more attention.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-10 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. I missed your thread yesterday, but thanks nonetheless for the post.
:thumbsup:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
suffragette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #30
77. .
:)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MrMickeysMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-10 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #27
37. Yeah, you did...
and another underwater fracking comment was made like mine.

kick
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
suffragette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-10 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #37
63. I'm not familiar with "underwater fracking"
At first I thought fracking was a substitute for a curse word( :-) ) but your post led me to look it up and see it was about the chemicals.
Can you explain a bit more about what it is?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MrMickeysMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-10 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #63
69. With pleasure...

To "frac" is to fracture shale rock, and we have a lot of natural gas under most of the Commonwealth of PA within the Marcellus shale. Prior to coming up with the idea of fracing, lots of gas companies drilled in a straight fashion to tap gas through a well. Wells dried more quickly until someone put forth the concept of drilling down and out like many spider legs at a level of 8,000 feet into the earth.

This method of drilling down and out is a more "efficient" process being put forward to extract natural gas in the Marcellus shale. The slang for it is, "frac", and that comes from using hydraulic fracturing, where you basically drill by using large pumps hooked up to a newly drilled well that eventually travels down 8,000 feet. The wells are cemented and there are many companies competing to drill these wells. Many come into communities and set up meetings with "common folk" to acquire the agreements the rights to drill. They often promise royalties of gas that is recovered. The lines that extend out after going 8,000 feet down can extend for miles. Highly pressurized water and chemicals (and chemical breakdown is unknown, as that is the company's propriatary information, even to the Dept of Envir. Protection) break apart the shale hard rock, creating fissures from which the shale gas is released. It takes thousands of gallons of fresh water to frac through each well, and that water is again delivered by trucks back and forth from the well sites. The water that is recovered can be the biggest problem, too (it's in a contaminated state). The companies look for places central to wells to "treat" the frac water before returning it to its source, which are our rivers around. The companies get the water for free (yes they do). Some have illegally dumped frac water in the rivers. Not nice.

The whole process is controversial. In some cases (Susquahana county, I believe) when proper cementing procedures were not followed, frac fluid (that mix of water and chemicals) were able to migrate / forced into groundwater. The groundwater usually anywhere from 0 to 1,000 feet deep, while the natural gas bearing formation lies at several thousand feet. You can actually see bubbles coming up from leakage. It's awful.

There have been reports after reports of well blowing up, water that can be ignited coming out of the faucets in these areas that have been drilled.

This is supposed to be Pennsylvania's best hope for energy besides "clean coal" (oxymoron). This is supposed to be our "gold rush"? Some great plan, eh?

And, of course, the gas drilling companies have to work with the DEP in our state, which, of course, has too few employees to handle thousands and thousands of applications pouring in. The PA DEP literally does not know what to do because of the cluster-fuck and overload of moving this new technology.

You can tell I'm pretty leery over this. I have good reason to be!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
suffragette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #69
71. I really think you should post an OP about this

Thanks so much for your response.
This is very important and timely info to know. I think you are correct in being leery. This looks like a terrible process with horrific short and long term impact.

Looks like this is being done out west as well.

Found this:

A Toxic Spew?
Officials worry about impact of 'fracking' of oil and gas.

By Jim Moscou | Newsweek Web Exclusive
Aug 20, 2008 | Updated: 5:26 p.m. ET Aug 20, 2008


http://www.newsweek.com/id/154394

These have been boom years for the West. From New Mexico to Montana, more than 33,000 new oil and gas wells have been approved since 2001. Last year, nearly 90 percent of onshore federal drilling permits were issued in the Rockies. In the heart of the rush is Colorado. A 2007 survey from the Fraser Institute, an energy think tank, put the state as the No. 1 global spot to explore and develop oil and gas.

Central to that development is the use of fracking fluids. Largely unregulated, they've been employed by the energy industry for decades and, with the exception of diesel, can be made up of nearly any set of chemicals. Also, propriety trade laws don't require energy companies to disclose their ingredients. "It is much like asking Coca-Cola to disclose the formula of Coke," says Ron Heyden, a Halliburton executive, in recent testimony before the COGCC. Despite its widespread use and somewhat mysterious mix, fracturing fluid was deemed in 2004 by the Environmental Protection Agency as safe for the environment and groundwater. Dave Dillon, the COGCC's top engineering manager, says nearly every one of Colorado's 35,600 wells are "fracked" and that a minimum of 100,000 gallons are used per well, resulting in millions of gallons pumped into the ground each year. And since it's typically pumped far below groundwater tables, Congress exempted fracking fluids from the Safe Drinking Water Act in 2005.

~snip~

How often workers and communities are exposed to fracturing fluids, and the chemicals in them, is unknown. One study by Lachelt's OGAP reported Colorado had about 1,500 reported spills of various types, including fracturing fluids, in five years. Nearly 800 spills were identified in New Mexico. But, as the Behr case demonstrates, some fracturing fluid spills and worker contamination may be falling through regulatory cracks. While numerous government guidelines require contaminate spills and worker injuries be reported, NEWSWEEK has learned that not a single incident report was filed with any government agency by Weatherford or BP documenting the April 17 spill, nor may either company have been required to do so. The federal Occupational Safety and Health Administration, the Environmental Protection Agency and the state's COGCC all tell NEWSWEEK that the incident falls outside their regulatory jurisdiction, or was not significant enough to trigger reporting requirements. Moreover, Marshall was contaminated on a well site located on the Southern Ute Indian Reservation, putting federal, state and local oversight further out of reach. (The Southern Ute authorities say they were never notified of the spill either.) The Colorado offices of the EPA and OSHA did launch investigations this month.

For state health officials, the chemical exemptions, regulatory loopholes and missing data are a concerning mix. "We are just working in the dark," says Dr. Martha Rudolph, director of environmental programs for the Colorado Department of Public Health and Environment. "We don't know the impact on the potential health on humans might be. We need to." La Plata Commissioner White is more succinct: "I think this is a travesty," he says. "Somebody has dropped the ball."


Interesting that Halliburton and BP were right at the center of that incident as well.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MrMickeysMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #71
72. You're probably right...
... I was just talking to my best friend, who still lives in my old stomping ground, Florida. She confirms all concerns as expressed in various threads (and I've done before, too). Only now, the entire state of FL is threatened all the way up the Atlantic.

I'll cross post the above since the MSM seem to think the number one story is in New York City. Something tells me they want us to look at the shiny object over there.

Thanks for the suggestion,suffragette.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
suffragette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #72
73. Pm me when you do
I'll be glad to rec your post.
This info needs to get out in front of people's eyes.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-10 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
29. Kicked and recommended.
Thanks for the thread, seafan.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Gin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-10 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. Halliburton and disaster go hand in hand
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Union Yes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-10 09:55 PM
Response to Original message
33. I'm ready to throw lettuce...
Edited on Fri Apr-30-10 09:55 PM by Union Yes
:grr:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MadMaddie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-10 10:16 PM
Response to Original message
34. Halliburton a company known for it's quality of work involved
again in a catastrophic event.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MrMickeysMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-10 11:10 PM
Response to Original message
35. This is the oceans' version of what is happening in the Marcelus Shale frac drilling
Some wells that are meant to seal off gases that permeate up from 8,000 feat below are just shoddy. That's when you get news of folks water tasting bad, or water that will ignite with a match out of the faucet.

No quality control, no track record, no accountability, and much of the government in their pocket.

If this IS true, then I can't think of one person more involved in the destruction of this earth than Dick Fucking Cheney.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-10 11:12 PM
Response to Original message
36. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
AllyCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-10 01:02 AM
Response to Original message
38. And yet, they'll do no jail time, probably not face trial or get a strongly worded letter
from our complicit Congress. And the media will be sure you know about the next American Idol.

This makes me sick.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-10 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #38
59. . . . and the further complications of Halliburton using "contractors" . . . !!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
joe black Donating Member (514 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #38
78. No one gets fired either.
When I was a young lad I was fired from a job for being one minute late. It was my one and only time. WTF
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
indimuse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-10 03:37 AM
Response to Original message
40. knr! n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
spicegal Donating Member (617 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-10 07:56 AM
Response to Original message
41. Wow, Halliburton huh? Not to sound like Beck, but "where have we heard that name before?
The evil Dick Cheney curse strikes again. Halliburton should be investigated for all sorts of crimes. Weren't they the ones who built the shower facilities in Iraq that electrocuted soldiers.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
spicegal Donating Member (617 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-10 08:07 AM
Response to Original message
42. I doubt Halliburton will ever be held accountable. They were the benefactors of millions, if not
billions of dollars in no bid contracts. It always amazed me that no one seemed to have a problem that Dick Cheney was their former CEO, an oil man himself along with the president. You know there were some twisted business deals going on behind closed doors. Yet no one questioned or batted an eye. And here there name comes up again in what is sure to be one of the worst environmental disasters in our history.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-10 08:09 AM
Response to Original message
43. the united states of halliburton
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FirstLight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-10 09:07 AM
Response to Original message
47. If Corporations are now "people"
Why is Halliburton not facing CRIMINAL charges?

This company needs to be broken into little pieces...small enough for us all to get a turn stomping on them.

Of course I'd also like to slap Cheney and the rest of the asshats who made the decisions to cut corners and do such shoddy work...But then again, when have they *ever* been held ACCOUNTABLE?

ugh... bastards
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jaye52 Donating Member (11 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-10 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
50. My first knr - thanks!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Greyskye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-10 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #50
56. Welcome to DU, Jaye52!
:hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jaye52 Donating Member (11 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-10 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. Thanks!
My first welcome! Thanks greyskye :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AnArmyVeteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-10 10:09 AM
Response to Original message
52. What did they use? Flour, salt & water paste!!! Elmer's Glue?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
felinetta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-10 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #52
66. Could it be the same stuff China put in pet food?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AnArmyVeteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #66
76. Whatever they did, they cut corners, just like they did in Iraq and KILLED SOLDIERS
Not one Halliburton executive has gone to prison for killing soldiers with their deadly showers. And not one Halliburton executive has gone to prison for fraud from stolen and wasted money in Iraq.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FailureToCommunicate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-10 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
53. Halliburton... why does that name sound familiar?
Creeps
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BanTheGOP Donating Member (596 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-10 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
54. Recommendations for action
Article on recommendations for preventing such disasters in the future

Republicans, Halliburton 100% Responsible for Oil Disaster
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
anachro1 Donating Member (388 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-10 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
55. And there is no doubt
they used the CHEAPEST cement to be found.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-10 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
58. Halliburton should be banned from any future work with government or any work
Edited on Sat May-01-10 01:14 PM by defendandprotect
for oil industry/rigs --

A 2007 study by three U.S. Minerals Management Service officials found that cementing was a factor in 18 of 39 well blowouts in the Gulf of Mexico over a 14-year period. That was the single largest factor, ahead of equipment failure and pipe failure.


Didn't read all of this as closely as I should have but . . .

At the time of the incident, well operations had not yet reached the point requiring the placement of the final cement plug which would enable the planned temporary abandonment of the well, consistent with normal oilfield practice.


This work was being done because there was a plan to "temporarily abandon the well" -- ???

"consistent with normal oilfield practice" -- ???

Why should they be abandoning such a productive source of oil?

Is this just more oil industry-game-playing to keep prices up?

And if they know the risks of cementing wells, wouldn't that also suggest that they shouldn't

be following these practices?



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-10 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
61. ...halliburton, too big to fail
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Raster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
74. Why am I not surprised?
:kick:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 03:29 PM
Response to Original message
75. Error - you may only recommend topics started within 24 hours
Very good topic. Sorry i didn't get here in time to rec, but it gave me some interesting information.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AuntPatsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 11:57 PM
Response to Original message
79. It sounds like they miscalculated the release of pressure from the well...
I honestly do not believe that the company man nor the pusher nor driller should be held responsible...In La recently on land there have been several blowouts..I am not sure if I see a pattern of increased accidental miscalculations or perhaps a hope that the danger of a highly volatile area is not being handled properly, I have heard recently through the grapevine that lately, not only Halliburton has had problems with their casing but other casing companies as well, perhaps this area the gulf included is just more volatile lately than previously thought and the boys on top have yet to take it all seriously enough..very sad when it is more than obvious that problems with casing have happened more frequently in the present than in past years, not sure if nature has simply had enough of us putting holes into it's center or nature's core is having a bit of a mid life crisis and is beginning a rapid if not dangerous for the surface landscape life altering change..


Man has yet to find the area of geology an exact science sadly and sometimes I wish our vanity to want to control it would take a back seat in realizing who exactly is boss....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tbredbeck Donating Member (95 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #79
80. The easy stuff is already drilled
We could very well be seeing more violent blowouts now than previously. As all the shallower (and less dangerous, generally) reservoirs are pretty well drilled up, the industry has been looking deeper and deeper. Deep gas can be very difficult to handle as the pressures are much higher.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AuntPatsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #80
81. Agree fully and if accounts are accurate, the bop in place was not equipped
to handle any pressure above the 15,000 pound mark, that would explain why the safety net in question did not hold out, the pressure coming up from the reserve obviously was more than expected...

You would think though with all the accidental blowouts lately in this area which includes the gulf that they would not have simply continued to count on luck that the bop would hold with it's present capabilities..

I do know that when it comes time to pour the casing in the holes the fear is there, a real fear lately as if proof to me at least that the boys on top are aware but continue to roll the dice, I assume the profits still outweigh the losses or more would be being done to correct this obvious miscalculations for drilling deeper than we once did...

Contrary to popular belief and according to DU they did have a safety cut off valve in place...it's believed that when the pressure became too unstable it could have loosened some components that then jammed the valves as they intended to close...but with so much iron now surrounding it, in fact shielding it not only from view but also shielding the hole from anyone attempting to shut it all in, it would take months if ever to prove that particular assumption that it was more than one failed component that caused this horrific accident.....

Your right about the gas, lately it is proving to be more unstable even though this area has a history of it, even with the shallow wells, so it would not be far fetched to realize the danger is even more likely considering the depths now being drilled.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Wed Apr 24th 2024, 06:40 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC