North American Union: pretty sensible idea, isn't it?

[miscsoc]

A la the EU

It's been proposed by a few people and is a mainstay of right wing conspiracists but strikes me as fairly sound, and a sensible solution to the Mexico-U.S. immigration thing.

The prospect of membership would encourage positive reform in the Americas and the european experience has shown that you can have free legal movement of people from economies of vastly diff. developmental status without significant problems

it would also be a way to promote internal reform in mexico, again the european experience provides positive examples

[UndertheOcean]

1. what , want to make millions of brown people citizens of the United states of the Anglo-Saxons ?

nonsense ! REPENT !

[UndertheOcean]

2. Kidding aside , I hope , even if it happens 100 years from now , that the world becomes one united

country ... for the sake of everyone.

[ZeitgeistObserver]

3. Solution to what?

Canada doesn't have a problem.

[miscsoc]

4. you have a point

although i am a quebec nationalist sympathiser and i suppose you can imagine an independent quebec in a NAU

but yes i don't know about what's in it for canada

[ZeitgeistObserver]

5. Quebec would disappear in any NAU.

We'd all be better off joining the EU, not the US.

[miscsoc]

6. heard the eu-canada thing before

i like the concept. someone should push it.

[ZeitgeistObserver]

7. We are in negotiations with the EU right now.

[miscsoc]

11. really

i had no inkling of this

regarding eu membership?

[ZeitgeistObserver]

12. Yes, indeed and it's going beautifully.

Provinces all onside and everything.

[miscsoc]

13. alright alright

israel wants to be a member though, so it isn't that absurd a notion

canada would make sense as an eu member, though.

if there was a prospect of it i wld approve

[ZeitgeistObserver]

15. There's a waiting list to be a member of the EU.

Israel isn't on it.

First we get free trade in place, and then we go on the list.

[miscsoc]

17. is anyone in canada seriously proposing joining though?

nt

[ZeitgeistObserver]

18. Here's stuff from just today.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/free-trade-high-on-the-agenda-at-canada-eu-summit-next-week/article1552261/


http://www2.macleans.ca/2010/04/30/secret-trade-talks-take-to-the-streets/

[miscsoc]

19. that's interesting, was unaware

canada should be a proper member and have commissioners and meps etc. the articles sound like canada might accept european interference in their affairs re: trade/industry w/o having any representation. the thing about post privatisation in one of those articles surprised me.

[ZeitgeistObserver]

20. People are more interested in Helena/Jaffer

and aren't paying attention to anything serious. So the media gives them what they want.

We'll eventually be a member, but first we have to set up the free trade deal.

We have more representation at these meetings than the Europeans do.

[pampango]

42. I knew that Canada and the EU were in negotiations for a free trade agreement, but

joining the EU? I didn't know that was under discussion.

I think it's great. In every way (well, except for location, it's not exactly in Europe :) ) Canada would be a great member of the EU. Canada is already as progressive as the EU so it wouldn't have to change much if at all to qualify for membership. If they have to change the name "European Union", if Canada were to join, how about "Union of Progressive Countries" (although the UPC acronym might not be the right way to go) or the "North Atlantic Union (the NAU acronym would drive freepers wild due to its association with the much-discussed but never seen North American Union). ;)

[Oregone]

8. There are early negotiats to lay groundwork, but who knows what will come of it

I think its a good idea to diversify. Canada is far too dependent on a bipolar US for trade. European trade saved their hide in the Great Depression.

[ZeitgeistObserver]

9. Fifth and final round will be in October.

Although I have no idea where you get your ideas about the Depression from.

[Oregone]

14. Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act stifled US & Canada trade

Canada had to look elsewhere for trade. Forgot where I read it, but they either turned to Europe or Britain/commonwealth nations to makeup for the massive blow to US trade

Maybe Im nuts. I thought I caught that on a CBC documentary about US & Canada trade in the 20th century.

[ZeitgeistObserver]

16. We had very little trade with the US at the time.

Most of our trade waa with the UK, which also had the Depression, as did most of the world.

[Oregone]

24. You sure about that?

(source: Canada in the World Economy, Stovel)

Im just a Yank, so growing up we weren't even taught there was a country up north. But, ya know, correct me if Im wrong, I thought trade was quite big prior to the trade wars of 1929/1930...

Oh yeah, also, in 1928 Canada was the US's number 1 importer too.

[ZeitgeistObserver]

25. Yes, quite sure.

This was a British colony at the time called a Dominion.

We were British subjects until after WWII.

[Oregone]

26. You need to tell these people to correct their errors then:

Even outside the thriving but illicit liquor trade, the 1920s saw an economic boom. Despite continuing high tariffs, commerce between the two neighbours flourished. By the end of the decade, 68 per cent of Canada's imports came from the United States, while 46 per cent of her exports went to that country. In 1922, U.S. investment in Canada surpassed British investment for the first time.

http://www.international.gc.ca/history-histoire/world-monde/1921-1939.aspx?lang=eng

Its possible you might be mistaken. Who knows?

:)

[ZeitgeistObserver]

27. Don't need to.

We didn't have major trade with the US, until the UK decided not to bother anymore. Then it boomed.

[Oregone]

28. Can you show me some stats?

:rofl:

"boomed"? Ya mean, like when the global great depression was over and economic growth & trade boomed almost everywhere?

Yeah, 46% of their exports and 11.5% of their GDP doesn't sound major at all....riiiight.

[ZeitgeistObserver]

29. You've already got your mind made up.

So much so you don't even see what you're looking at.

[Oregone]

30. Seriously, if you can provide contradictory evidence, I would love to see it

Do you have any?

[ZeitgeistObserver]

31. Seriously, I live here. You don't.

So kindly don't try to tell me about my country.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Preference

At the outbreak of the Great War, Canada enthusiastically joined Britain's side, but the sacrifices of the war would strain those good feelings. At the Paris Peace Conference, Canada demanded the right to sign treaties without British permission and to join the League of Nations. By the 1920s, Canada was taking a more independent stance on world affairs.

In 1926, through the Balfour Declaration, Britain declared that she would no longer legislate for the Dominions, and that they were now fully independent states with the right to conduct their own foreign affairs. This was later formalised by the Statute of Westminster 1931. Canada's patriation of its constitution, with the Constitution Act, 1982, was the final chapter in this lengthy process towards full separation.

Loyalty to Britain still existed, however, and during the darkest days of the Second World War for Britain, after the fall of France and before the entry of the Soviet Union or the US, Canada was Britain's principal ally in the North Atlantic, and a major source of weapons and food.


The definitive break in Canada's loyalist foreign policy came during the Suez Crisis, when the Canadian government actively worked to thwart Britain's invasion of Egypt.

In both countries, regional ties loomed larger than the historical trans-Atlantic ones. Canada's trade with the US now dwarfed that with the UK. Britain eventually joined the European Economic Community, and Canada joined the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), putting the two nations in rival trading blocs.

Trade and investment
Despite Canada's long-term shift towards proportionally more trade with the US, Canada–UK trade has continued to grow in absolute numbers and reached an all-time high in 2006. The UK is by far Canada's most important commercial partner in Europe and, from a global perspective, ranks second only to the United States.

In bottom-line terms, two-way merchandise trade between Canada and the UK reached almost C$21 billion in 2006, with two-way investment stocks totalling C$98 billion. The UK accounted for C$10.1 billion of exports from Canada, with gold, uranium and nickel – together with higher exports of aircraft and telecommunications equipment – sitting high on the list. The UK ranks second in Foreign Direct Investment (FDI) in Canada, valued at C$39 billion in 2006, up 29.9 per cent on the previous year. The UK is also the second largest destination of Canadian direct investment abroad, valued at C$59 billion (11.3 per cent of the global total), up 20.7 per cent on 2005, positioning Canada as the third largest investor in the UK, following the US and France.<2>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_%E2%80%93_United_Kingdom_relations

[Oregone]

32. Uh, I do actually live in Canada, but thats irrelevant

"In both countries, regional ties loomed larger than the historical trans-Atlantic ones. Canada's trade with the US now dwarfed that with the UK."

And this happened prior to the WWII. As I illustrated earlier, 46% of Canadian exports when to the US by the late 20s (which was a major part of their economy, since exports accounted for 25% of their GDP at the time). A massive amount of their imports were from the US.

Honestly, Im in awe. I don't think your wiki link showed anything.

What you are supposed to do is this...

Compare and contrast trade in 1928 with trade shortly after 1945 between Canada and the US to prove that there was a massive "boom" (to be tied to only UK butting out). Further, you should adjust this against inflation and against global economic growth. And still...still....you have done nothing to show how 1928 trade levels between the US and Canada were not significant.

The reality is that in the late 20s they were eachother's top importers, and trade was a major part of both countries GDP. Its absolutely absurd to suggest there was very little trade at this time and it boomed later. The amount of trade was a significant part of each country's economy (unless you can show otherwise, right?)

Now, that all changed in the following decade during the Great Depression, and Canada shifted away from the US, as I illustrated earlier.

[ZeitgeistObserver]

33. My family has been here since the 1800s.

You grew up in the US.

Bulk agricultural items and so on aren't the same as retail, which was purely British at the time. Sorry.

Tude is something you should have left behind.

[Oregone]

34. And I just stayed at a Holiday Inn

Claiming you know something because you lived there longer is absolutely absurd (especially to a desirable skilled & educated immigrant)

The bottom line is that exports made up 25% of the Canadian economy in the late 20s, and 46% of those went to the US. 68% of their imports came from the US.

You can spin around and talk about your great grand-daddy all you damn well want, but at the end of the day, its going to be tough to classify that trade level as "little"

Remember....you are here because some sperm found an egg. Stop using your ancestors as a crutch.

[ZeitgeistObserver]

35. The bottom line is that you know zik about Canada.

So stop pretending you do.

[Oregone]

36. ditto

[ZeitgeistObserver]

37. That is why there will never be any NAU.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lagomorph]

21. I dunno....

we're pretty whacky as a whole...

[Hekate]

22. Personally I'm a regionalist. The older I get the more I want to see cultural diversity preserved..

... and the less I want to see the world homogenized. The EU is a grand experiment, let them keep at it for awhile and we'll see how it goes.

The EU has its own troubles with resentments at the local levels, by the way. And Greece is crashing and burning.

Hekate

[ZeitgeistObserver]

23. They all still have their own cultures,

even though they've been doing this since the 50s now.

In the US, several states are crashing and burning. Some provinces here have never paid their own way either.

[proteus_lives]

38. Gag. No super-states.

They tend to implode. Look at the USSR and the EU a pretty fragile house of cards.

[MadHound]

39. Yeah, that whole NAFTA thing worked out so well for our manufacturing sector

And many thought it was the first step towards a North American union.

No, sorry, but we don't need that at this point. Canada has no need, indeed would suffer by joining such a union, and frankly after our economic war on Mexico it wouldn't be beneficial for us to hook up with them.

You want to promote internal reform on Mexico? A few things. First, end the WOD here in the states, dry up the their money supply. Furthermore, as far as illegal aliens go, hammer, I mean hammer the employers who hire illegal aliens. It will make it really, really unattractive to come to the states.

Repeal NAFTA restore Mexico's agricultural sector which NAFTA destroyed.

Make immigration to the state easier, more streamlined for those who want to come.

Mexico's problems would become much less if you took these steps.

[pampango]

40. Never happen. Americans are more afraid of Mexicans than the French and Polish are of Germans.

They say American Democrats are to the right of European conservatives in many ways. This is one of those ways. Americans (republicans universally, but lots Democrats, too) fear open borders with "others" to an extent than even European conservatives probably find amusing.

Now the far-right in Europe (the BNP and UKIP in the UK, National Front in France, Jobbik in Hungary, etc. - every country seems to have one or two of these parties) are the only ones there who want to get rid of the EU so they can erect immigration and tariff controls on fellow Europeans and the products. These folks probably look at the American focus on "border security" (from republicans and Democrats alike) and wish they could more successfully sell that hysteria in their own countries. Blaming foreigners for national problems is their stock-in-trade.

[Richard Steele]

41. Dumbass.

nm

[earth mom]

43. HELL NO! Say goodbye to the Constitution if the NAU is adopted.

And how in the hell will this help the economy or all the other problems this country faces?

NAFTA and CAFTA have been disastrous for workers. Now you are proposing allowing even more workers to come in and work for even less?! :wtf:

[pampango]

45. "Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies! Rivers and seas boiling! Forty years of darkness!

Earthquakes, volcanoes...The dead rising from the grave! Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!" AND "Say goodbye to the Constitution if the NAU is adopted." Why? Canadians (and Mexicans) wouldn't live with our Bill of Rights? They would only agree to an EU-style union if we guaranteed them that they didn't have to worry about having any constitutional rights and protections? If they insist on that, then I agree with you, an NAU would be a bad idea.

Did those bad things happen in Europe when countries there opened their borders as a part of the European Union. Poor ol' Europeans have been living in tyrannical squalor ever since. No rights, no benefits. Undoubtedly they all wish they could all live in our progressive paradise which we protect from our neighbors with walls and border guards.

[earth mom]

46. If you can't see this as an attempt to shred the Constitution once and for all, I feel sorry for you

That you even expect Canada and Mexico to jump at the chance to be part of the U.S. and fall in line with our Constitution shows how arrogant most people in this country are.

Do you even know what autonomy or sovereignty or independence mean?!

[pampango]

48. I'm hardly expecting Canada and Mexico to jump at being part of the US. I am suggesting

that they may be open to negotiations on a union under the right conditions, just like France and Germany agreed to be part of the same union. To more bitter foes you can't find.

Do you think Canadians and Mexicans want to live with no guarantees? When you speculated that an NAU would mean the death of our Constitution I thought you were suggesting a life with no rights, guarantees and protections. The Europeans worked out a mutually beneficial system that protects the rights of citizens pretty darn well. Are you saying North Americans cannot do the same thing?

[Mudoria]

44. No thanks

[Greyhound]

47. Accelerate the race to the bottom, great idea, Yay.

:eyes:
:kick: & U

[Beringia]

49. I don't think we are anywhere near as mature as the EU n/t

[RB TexLa]

50. And the one who listen when rightwingers tell them that every single American HAS to agree with them

on a point are out in force over "Merica's precious sovereignty." :puke:


Always remember when you mention something that might help non-Americans here they are going to come out. To them foreigners aren't deserving of anything.