Do you believe in group think which equals reduced wages for average Americans?

[howaboutme]

Yeah this is going to bring out some differences in opinion on DU. I'm huge believer that "group think" is highly disingenuous to each and everyone of us. We average Americans just like our Congressional reps must stand up for our individual beliefs.

So do you support reduced wages and lost jobs for legal US citizens as OK if it provides jobs for those in the USA illegally? Are your priorities lying towards legal American workers or to illegal immigrant workers - because priorities can't be split? There is a simple choice in the debate on immigration and amnesty and the need to enforce policy on our borders and against employers. Either you support gains for US citizens or you support the employers' right to cheap illegal labor.

Ronald Reagan (the bastion of liberalism and protector of rights for average Americans :sarcasm:) was the first US President to provide an amnesty and he promised subsequent enforcement of both our borders and employment, and he fucking lied to us. He lied because illegal immigration was about reducing wages, breaking unions and making rich employers even richer. Make no mistake that I am one on many liberal Democrats who does not support the interests of big money, politicians and lawyers at the expense of average Americans. This will be one huge issue if it is foisted again upon Americans. There are many more Democrats just like me who don't buy the BS that says it is racist to oppose amnesty and hiring of illegal immigrants.

The bottom line is that some would say you are are racist if you don't support a totally full and open border policy, with open immigration from every country in the world and a soon to be population of one billion Americans and an environment that is shot to hell due to overpopulation, and which will make us competitive with the Chinese because most Americans will then be earning on par with the Chinese and those from India. This isn't an Hispanic or brown event, this about corporate elitists who are protecting their wealth and not our economy and our way of life. The rich have worked hard to shaft us and manipulate the propaganda on this.

[MannyGoldstein]

1. I Agree - But The Far Larger Problem is Jobs Sent To China

and other microwage countries, where folks work for $2 or so a day.

The immigration thing is bad, but it's a flea fart in comparison.

[howaboutme]

6. I agree

and I also believe (as I said in the OP) that the US will be just like China and India in not so many years if we implement the worldwide open border policy that some on here oddly support, and this will put us right on par with the likes of China and India.

There is reality and then there is political BS. The reality is the USA has been immersed in economic warfare for decades. On one side of the trenches are we the average people. On the other side is Wall Street, US Chamber of Commerce and our own Congress of both Parties. We the people have been screwed royally while the royal elite have made out like bandits.

[MannyGoldstein]

8. +1

Thanks for your posts!

[howaboutme]

11. Thank you

Group think becomes a dangerous thing when one is intimidated and made to believe that opposition to the consensus is evil. Progressive thought should be about open mindedness instead of "I'm right and you are wrong" and group think should be thrown out the window. There are too many individuals being manipulated into believing what others think we should believe.

My core belief is that every average American citizen deserves a right to a fair living wage even if it means employers don't get rich and even if it means those in the USA illegally should not compete and be given jobs.

For those who disagree you have your right to an opinion.

[uppityperson]

2. howaboutyou. Have you stopped beating your wife yet?

did you know we can search out old posts? http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8235022&mesg_id=8235022

[howaboutme]

9. So what - my other post stands

as being honest and sincere and not hypocritical. It was locked I assume because it stepped on the toes of some and was contentious - but not to me.

[rantormusing]

44. Uppityperson,

You stop taking little girls to abortion clinics?

[fishwax]

3. lol -- so anyone who disagrees with you is simply engaging in group think?

I guess I don't see what group think has to do with your post.

[howaboutme]

12. Group think

is about criticism and intimidation to those who don't sip the "group think" kool aid.

I have seen almost zero posts on DU that support the blight of average American workers who are out of work and have had wages cut due to illegal immigration and temporary visas, so obviously the predominant belief here is that opposition to illegal immigration is just not cool.

The Democratic Party used to be totally and 100% about improving the lot for US workers. There was no ambiguity there. What does it unambiguously stand for today?

I learned many years ago to evaluate my own beliefs and drink my own kool aid, and never ever buy into what others think just to fit in and be assured at my age that will not change.

[The Magistrate]

13. Then You Have Not Looked Very Hard, Sir

The problem is that an uncomfortable proportion of those claiming to be 'defending American workers' display, over time, obvious pug-marks of ethnic and racial bigotry. That definitely is 'just not cool' here....

[howaboutme]

16. You are entitled to your own belief

and as a fellow Democrat I hope you believe I am entitled to mine.

I don't believe it is racist at all to be concerned first about the welfare of one's own family (and our American family too), instead of those from some other country (east, south, north or west) who have sidestepped the simple legalities of requesting legal entry.

Most countries are far more strict than the USA in respect to immigration enforcement including Mexico itself, but they get a free pass. But the biggest offenders of all are the business interests who believe that all Americans should sacrifice for their profits and wealth.

[The Magistrate]

18. These Things Invariably Out Over Time, Sir

Time, after all, wounds all heels....

My own view is that there are sound left reasons to oppose great volumes of immigration, illegal or otherwise: it is reasonably well demonstrated that increasing the supply of any commodity reduces the price it can command; the reduction will be greater if the newcomers are used to a lower standard of living and wages, and greater still if they exist in a condition that makes it hard for them to avail themselves of the protections in labor and civil law against mis-treatment by employers.

What the law of other countries, particularly Mexico, on the subject may be, does not interest me. You point out that Mexico 'gets a free pass', but why should anyone here bother with expending great energy on Mexican immigration law? This line has been a staple of people whose chief interest has turned out to be disparagement of Mexicans and other Latinos here.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

25. "Time, after all, wounds all heels.." Brilliant!

And, appropriately apt for the OP. :applause:

[howaboutme]

28. Do tolerant open minded progressives typically

trash anyone who legitimately disagrees with their beliefs? I happen to be open minded and progressive and I don't support trashing those who disagree with my beliefs.

By definition close mindedness is always the antithesis of being progressive. I'm willing to honestly debate anyone on my beliefs on immigration but I don't expect to be trashed in the process.

[The Magistrate]

30. One Opens The Mind, Sir, Like The Mouth, in Order To Close It Again On Something Solid

So far, all you have done is put on some vapors and airs about the horror of people disagreeing with you, apparently in unison, and with a complete disregard for native workers as they do so.

Try putting forward a policy proposal, something you think would constitute an improvement in the situation.

[uppityperson]

32. We have had words in the past, but thank you for your post here.

You are more polite than I.

[howaboutme]

35. Sir?

BTW WTF is this "sir" shit. You don't have to sir me. I spent my time in the US military from 1967 and I don't need to hear that stuff anymore.

I made my point in my OP and it turned into what I would have anticipated as a coordinated attack from right wing nuts instead of a legitimate debate that I expected from progressives. I have no more time for this BS.

[uppityperson]

36. The Magistrate "sir"s and "ma'am"s everyone. It is being polite.

Some seem to miss that. Every watch "to kill a mockingbird"?

By the way, this IS a forum, where posters write posts, and others reply. If you don't like us being able to reply, perhaps you should find a place where you can merely pontificate. As for a "coordinated attack", perhaps you should reconsider your OP or posting it here rather than attack those who disagree with you. "coordinated attack", snort

[The Magistrate]

37. You Have Not Made A Point, Sir, But Rather A Straw-Man

Which you have erected in order to attack people who show some concern that persons who come to this country out of straitened circumstances seeking better lives for themselves and their families be treated with some fairness as fellow human beings.

[fishwax]

38. lol -- you're the one who started the conversation by suggesting anyone who disagrees with you

is just engaging in group think. So your indignation about being "trashed" rings a bit hollow.

[fishwax]

24. so, yes, people who don't disagree with you are just kool-aid drinking groupthinkers

Got it.

There have been plenty of posts supporting out of work and struggling American workers. There have been plenty of posts by people who are opposed to immigration and offering a variety of responses to the issue of illegal immigration. There are also people who support the struggle of American workers but also don't want to come down hard on illegal immigration. The posts are definitely there.

"is about criticism and intimidation to those who don't sip the "group think" kool aid."

Of course, I ought not fail to point out that your accusations of group think and kool-aid drinking and only having an opinion to try to fit in are, themselves, simply a subtle form of imposing group think--criticizing and intimidating those who don't see these issues as you do.

[howaboutme]

29. You have your opinion

I've got mine. So be it.

[xchrom]

4. Unrec if I understand you - off shored jobs

Are the problem.

Mexicans -- legal and 'illegal' have longer than the country has been here.

By that logic we'd be poorer than china's workers.
And shanghai would have been hiring us ages ago.

[BlooInBloo]

5. I wonder if you know you're on the wrong website....

or if you're just extra-special stupid.

[Warpy]

7. Ha! Just cut right to the chase, willya?

In any case, picking on the illegal workers isn't working, nor is allowing them to drive wages down while breaking the unions.

Obviously, what needs to be done is going after the scumbucket employers who are bringing these people in (and anyone who thinks it's not organized to the hilt is beyond naive) and exploiting them.

Dry up the jobs and there will be fewer of them trying to come here.

[BlooInBloo]

10. I still like my Exponential Fine. $1, doubled, per illegal worker.

[Lyric]

14. I don't know what I think.

As a poor American who HAS worked jobs that immigrants (both legal and illegal) tend to gravitate toward, I do worry about jobs that the lower-income working class needs to survive. I spent years working in poultry processing plants in rural Virginia, where half of my co-workers were poor American citizens and the other half were poor Latino immigrants. I feel it's more the company's fault than anyone else's--they're the ones hiring illegal immigrants, after all.

On the other hand, I feel terrible for the plight of poor Latino immigrants, and I understand completely why they come here. Because I speak a little Spanish, I was promoted to line leader, and I wound up making friends with some of the people working with me. They told me their stories. I won't use their real names, but there was Manuel from Honduras who was made to come work in America because he impregnated the girl next door and had to marry her in a hurry--thus, the need for a good job. His brother Carlos was also there, working for the sake of their parents. Their cousin Liana told me she was only 15 years old, but her "papers" said that she was 18, so she was working there too. Jesenia was the tiniest, sweetest, prettiest girl I'd ever seen in my life, and she worked SO hard, despite her tiny size. Oralia was from Mexico, and spoke perfect, unaccented English--she was my lifeline for the times when I couldn't quite understand what someone was trying to tell me. Rafael and his wife had 6 children in El Salvador, and along with his mother, Virginia, they worked at the plant to make money to send back home because their family had lost everything in a landslide after some flooding in that area. All of them were good, decent people. I loved them. I still miss them and wonder what happened to them. It makes my heart hurt just to remember them after all these years.

I don't know what the right answer is. I don't want to see anyone get hurt. If there's a solution that doesn't hurt innocent people, I'd be all for it.

[EFerrari]

17. The right answer is right under our noses.

We need to stop strip mining Latin America. Stop supporting the right wing @ssholes over the reforming leaders. We need to de-militarize Colombia, Peru, Panama and Honduras. We need to stop attacking democracy down there because democracy is inconvenient for US based multinationals.

We need to repeal NAFTA.

If we do those two things (which will never happen because there's too much money in both), the migrant influx would probably go back to what it has always been, a yearly seasonal migration and a much smaller group of people who would like to be Americans.

This is not a border problem. We could all hold hands and physically guard the border and it wouldn't make any difference. We'd be further ahead to sit-in at the State Department.

[rantormusing]

40. exactly

+1

[NNN0LHI]

15. Whats your opinion of Ron Paul?

The reason I ask is that although Ron Paul and Ronald Reagan were soul mates you appear to not like Reagan but your written thoughts sound like classic Ron Paul rhetoric.

Something appears to be contradictory here.

Don

[The Magistrate]

20. An Acute Question, My Friend

[howaboutme]

21. To answer your question, there are things about RP

that I like such as his belief that the US government should be about our nation and people instead of perpetual imperialistic ventures, and his belief that we need to cut military offense (not defense) spending. I like the consistency of his beliefs throughout his career (just like Kucinich) unlike most pols who go with the winds.

But there are other things such as his opposition to the need for a basic social security security net for Americans that I disagree with.

I support 90% of liberal progressive issues but do not support amnesty or illegal immigration. I'm old enough to see how our country now has a lower standard of living and has been given away to special interests and the rich, and convinced to wage multiple costly wars that had nothing to do with the USA.

BTW are there a set of beliefs on DU that makes one ineligible to comment?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

26. So then you support Ron Paul's idea that American citizens of Mexican descent...

should be purged from the country?

[howaboutme]

31. Did I say that

or is that your way of debating with imaginary statements? You sound more like con arguing by twisting facts than a thoughtful progressive.

[uppityperson]

33. I think you missed the question mark.

or else you simply want to argue.

[uppityperson]

34. "support 90% of liberal progressive issues"? How do you feel about legalized abortion?

[rantormusing]

41. actually,

Ron Paul has said a lot of not so pleasant things to say about Mr. Reagan. He hated the first Bush also, if I'm correct, Reagan reign and Bush 1 running to succeed him was one of the reasons he ran for President in 88.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

19. What could be more patently "group think" than "America for Americans" nationalism?

[BlooInBloo]

22. Pro tip: Group think is ok if it's for white folks.

:P

[howaboutme]

27. Am I correct that you do not support the idea

of a better America for Americans? BTW where do you live?

Nationalism is the fundamental group think process that people of all nations including the USA, China, Ireland, Israel, Mexico have embedded into their belief system (some of it is propagandized by media and government) but most of it is about self interest since birth.

Most of us have loyalties toward our family first, municipality, state and country. That's the way ties work. Some have multiple loyalties and that's the way it works too. It is human nature and has nothing to do with racism unless it is your race only that is of your concern.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

45. You are right. I don't support the idea tha nationalism is inbred.

Or, that I, or anyone is obliged to be loyal to my municipality, state, or country...or, race, mom's apple pie, or the local bowling team.

" Freedom is the absolute right of all adult men and women to seek permission for their actions only from their own conscience and reason, and to be determined in their actions only by their own will, and consequently to be responsible only to themselves, and then to the society to which they belong, but only insofar as they have made a free decision to belong to it." Mikhail Bakunin

[KG]

23. illegal immigration's impact is minor compared outsourcing, off-shoring and deunionization.

policies gleefully rubber-stamped by both dem and repook parties.

[uppityperson]

39. Do you beieve in getting offended when members of a group you insulted/called out

disagree with you?

[treestar]

42. The very reason illegals get the jobs

Is that they are illegal and can't claim the same protections or rights.

If they could, the Americans would get the jobs, normally it would be easier for an employer to hire an American.

The only thing that could work would be open borders, then there is no one to exploit.

If you really think just making a law against people coming here is going to stop them, you're delusional. If you think employers aren't going to hire employees you can exploit when available, you're delusional.

[me b zola]

43. The problem is business looking for scab workers--not the workers

Working class people will always follow where there is work. The problem is employers looking for cheap/slave labor. This has been the problem since the industrial revolution. The answer is to pay people a living wage. Period.

[William Z. Foster]

46. um, wrong room I think

The meeting you are looking for is down the hall, and then take a right, and then take another right, and then keep going to your right until you come to a dead end and see a small claustrophobic whitewashed room full of small-minded brainwashed white people. I think they have Pat Buchanan as the featured speaker tonight, and his topic is "America for Americans!"

Workers don't take jobs from workers, management does. You are using the classic tactic of management - setting one group of workers against the other.

There is not a finite number of jobs, If there were, the first ten people to move into any town would have to seal it off to all outsiders so they don't lose their jobs. Every chamber of commerce in the country is trying to attract people to their area. Why? More workers, more prosperity for all. That is because all of us who are not on the extreme right wing politically or on the side of the haves and against the working people know that it is workers, not investors, who create wealth, who are the source of all wealth. We also know that workers spend their money in the community, unlike the corporate investors who take money out of the community.

The wealth drain is into the hands of the wealthiest few, not into the pockets of poor immigrants.

Immigrants coming here keeps jobs here. Immigrants staying home means the owners move the jobs there. Who do you think the immigrants work for if they stay home? The same owners and bosses, at a fraction of the wages which causes jobs to leave here and wages to be depressed globally. They can work farms here - where we have a chance to regulate and protect health, safety, and workers rights, or the farms will move south of the border, the investors will make more money, all wages will go down, and you will be eating imported produce that is less safe and fresh.

Labor moving around doesn't depress wages, capital moving around does. Workers move toward higher wages, capital moves toward lower wages. The more free capital is to move, the lower the wages. The more free labor is to move, the higher the wages.

All of your arguments were thoroughly demolished on other threads, and you have not been able to refute those challenges to your line of reasoning. Starting new threads and merely repeating the same unsupported inflammatory opinions, this time in a highly leading and prejudicial way, full of straw men and other logical fallacies, is more like an effort at propaganda and an appeal to people's basest emotions than it is any attempt at intelligent discourse about this subject.

False choices, fear mongering, attempting to divide the working class, raising racist imagery, phony populism - all of that is right out of the racist and right wing playbook. Merely claiming to be liberal and a democrat does not make you immune from having your right wing ideas criticized.

By the way, if the big money people cared about immigration, they would and could buy our useless Congress critters and amnesty would have been a done deal a long time ago. The truth is they can get cheaper labor if the immigrants stay home, so your cynical and unsupported argument that people who defend the immigrants are defending big money is simply false.

Examples of false and illogical statements, that are unsupported and indefensible:

"Do you believe in group think which equals reduced wages for average Americans?"

"Do you support reduced wages and lost jobs for legal US citizens as OK if it provides jobs for those in the USA illegally?"

"Either you support gains for US citizens or you support the employers' right to cheap illegal labor."

"I am one on many liberal Democrats who does not support the interests of big money, politicians and lawyers at the expense of average Americans."

"Some would say you are are racist if you don't support a totally full and open border policy."

"There are many more Democrats just like me who don't buy the BS that says it is racist to oppose amnesty and hiring of illegal immigrants."

"...open immigration from every country in the world and a soon to be population of one billion Americans and an environment that is shot to hell due to overpopulation, and which will make us competitive with the Chinese because most Americans will then be earning on par with the Chinese and those from India."

I haven't seen any one call you a racist, but people have said, and I will now say, that you are giving support to a racist agenda.

Your post is so bad, we are going to print out a bunch of copies and distribute it to the immigration rights groups and farmers as a worksheet for what we are up against, and how to combat it.

By the way, a big part of racism is being unwilling to even consider that what you are promoting could be promoting racism, and instead to turn on the people pointing that out and suggesting that they are the ones persecuting you. every racist does that. That doesn't mean that you are a racist, but again, it does mean that you are using the arguments that racists use and by doing that you are promoting racism.