Patti Smith says New York City has been closed off to the young and the struggling.

[BurtWorm]

Musician and author Patti Smith had some sound advice for fledgling artists thinking of moving to New York: don't.

According to Vanishing New York, in a discussion with writer Jonathan Lethem at Cooper Union on Saturday, Smith was asked if it was possible for young artists to come to the city and find the path to stardom that she did.

In response, Smith told the crowd, "New York has closed itself off to the young and the struggling. But there are other cities. Detroit. Poughkeepsie. New York City has been taken away from you. So my advice is: Find a new city."


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/03/patti-smith-to-artists-do_n_560794.html



And I bet it kills her to say it, but it's true. The developers are trying to price struggling artists and working people out of the city and turn it into a great big Disneyland and suburban mall. They're working as hard as they can to dull every edge the city ever had, except maybe for ones accessible only to the very wealthiest.

[dieselrevolver]

1. As a Brooklynite

I have to agree. This city has a reputation for being prohibitively expensive and it's harder and harder to get by everyday. Most creative types around here live in Bushwick, it's kind of the last refuge for struggling artists.

[C_U_L8R]

27. Yes on Bushwick

That's where all the interesting stuff is happening...
give it 10 years and the chain stores will be popping up there too.

Well... maybe 15.

[mopinko]

2. good news for chicago

we still have room for everybody, and there is a big market for both visual and performing artists. come on over.

[Captain Hilts]

4. Keeps Toronto and Philly going too. nt

[Mojeoux]

44. Toronto is like a trip to Europe.

Love it!

[Warren DeMontague]

26. Chicago is one of those "better kept secret" American cities.

I can think of a couple more... ;)

[whathehell]

38. Agree completely...There's no city

except, perhaps San Francisco, that I'd rather live in.

What are those other "better kept secret" American cities?...C'mon..We're curious!

[Warren DeMontague]

42. Shh.

[whathehell]

37. Very true...I'm an east coast transplant and I love Chicago!

keep trying to get my east coast relatives paying super-high rents and mortgages to move here.

What you said is true...There's room for everybody here...You can actually live nicely AND "affordably"...That's become a real rarity in most of the other coastal cities.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

62. Noooooo, don't tell them. I want it all to myself.

:evilgrin: I kid I kid.

[Captain Hilts]

3. Yes. nt

[Blue Meany]

5. Yeah, but once they send the artists in to exile, one of the main

reason for living in NYC will be gone. It's very short-sighted.

[corpseratemedia]

15. +1

[aikoaiko]

6. Detroit is primed for a Art and Design school to swoop in and buy up buildings.

And create an artist colony at the economic ruins.

[n2doc]

14. That was very successful here in Savannah

Look up SCAD. They saved downtown....Detroit would be wise to copy them

[aikoaiko]

21. SCAD is exactly the model I was thinking about.

:hi: neighbor

[Donnachaidh]

72. How can SCAD exist with Jack Kingston as the rep?

I love Savannah, love the school - but how the hell does a mental midget like Kingston become the rep for the area?

[n2doc]

87. Actually Barrow represents downtown

And he's not much better, blue dog DINO to the core. Kingston represents areas where there are 1, a lot of rich, conservative retirees, and 2, rural white Georgia. A lot of gerrymandering in our state.

[corpseratemedia]

16. sorry this response for the savannah post...+3!

[corpseratemedia]

17. +2

[Romulox]

55. Detroit's death is greatly exaggerated. Its NEIGHBORHOODS are in ruins

Its downtown is in better shape than it is has been in my lifetime. The question now is how to support that downtown. But the idea of a post-apocalyptic wasteland downtown is from the cartoons.

[blue_onyx]

61. I hope Mayor Bing's plans can help

It's nice that someone is finally tearing down old schools and homes. There's a lot of open land so I hope new public transportation, urban farms, and parks get built. It would be great if Detroit got some federal assistance.

Detroit will survive. It won't as large but that doesn't mean it can't be as good. I hope a lot of young, artistic, creative people do take a look at Detroit. We have a growing film industry and inexpensive housing. There's more opportunity here than some might think.

[Romulox]

84. I support Mayor Bing. Even in this environment, I feel there is hope for Detroit. nt

[aikoaiko]

68. I think the same could be true of Savannah.

The downtown was stable (but not in great shape) 30 years ago and certain surrounding neighborhood were turning in crack and crime zones. Then the school settled in downtown buying up older 3 or 4 story buildings, renovating them, and offering classes. Soon the art students came and rented those crappy apartments in rundown houses. Rents started going up and values started increasing. More businesses opened up downtown to support the students.

I don't know if it can be replicated, but the art school had an incredible effect on Savannah.

[Romulox]

86. Thanks for sharing that. Detroit has to look at successful models wherever they can be found.

My feeling is that success in Detroit will have many mothers--i.e. it will take a comprehensive region-wide approach.

[fujiyama]

105. Detroit has the Center for Creative Studies

It's a pricey private art college, but I remember hearing they have a pretty good reputation.

I'm really hoping for a hipster revival of Detroit - and I'm encouraged by Bing's plan to start reducing the size of the city. Parts of the city honestly look like Pyongyang from google maps.

[G_j]

7. How many years of Republican mayors?

too many

[BurtWorm]

8. The last Democrat was David Dinkins in 1992. Before that you have to go back to Abe Beame.

(Unless you count Ed Koch, which is a stretch.)

[G_j]

9. a stretch indeed

I always think of Koch as an R

[Bluenorthwest]

10. she is of course dead on accurate

Portland, Detroit, many other places are so much better for artists and others. NYC has placed itself outside the loop, in a long term way.

[brooklynite]

11. Poughkeesie?

Talk about suffering for your art...

[gadjitfreek]

13. No kidding. After Po-Town, all that's left is Newburgh...

...and that's a real pit. I know. I live there. :)

[KamaAina]

80. My own Puke-ipsie story

I was strolling around Main Mall with a friend who had just settled there (from New Orleans! :wtf: ). I said, "You know, if they'd put some money into this, they could make something out of it."

She looked up at me (I'm 6'3" and she's 4'10") and said, "They just did." :rofl:

[HockeyMom]

12. Old enough to remember

rent control and rent stabilization. THAT is how the young were able to survive (including me), and eventually, thrive in NYC back in the good old days.

[BurtWorm]

18. Doesn't it seem like the city has been gunning for the death of rent stabilization

since the early 1980s? They're trying to kill it bit by bit, claiming that once it's gone, housing prices will stabilize all on their own as real values finally reveal themselves through the magic of the free market. I know some "lefties" who've fallen for it, too.

[MellowDem]

65. Rent controls unfortunately don't work very well.

If one knows the basic rules of supply and demand, any sort of price control will always create a shortage. So while price controls help some in keeping low rates, it keeps a lot of others from ever getting a rent, period, who want to move to the city.

The real prices will be higher as a result, but that's the case for any large, international megacity around the globe. All of them are prohibitively expensive and the cost of living does keep a substantial part of the population from ever being ever to live there, even if they want to.

Of course, there are some good things to be said about not having an ever expanding population.

[whathehell]

19. She might have added San Francisco and LA as well.

[SPedigrees]

23. Boston too. Glad we had the opportunity to dwell there in the 60s.

Now only the very rich can afford an apartment on Beacon Hill or overlooking the Commonwealth Ave mall near the public gardens. I'm not sure apartments exist there anymore, probably converted to million dollar condos now.

[janet118]

29. yeah, even somerville is high rent . . . n/t

[whathehell]

31. Yup...I have the same feeling (and 1970 experience) about San Francisco

Those were the days.:hippie:

[Lyric]

30. I don't know. San Francisco is often even more unaffordable than NYC.

[whathehell]

36. I believe you....and what a shame!...Such a beautiful city.

I lived there in 1970-71 when ALL strata of society (yes, even blue collar folks and hippies on Welfare) could live there....Shortly after that..The deluge.

[Lyric]

39. Yeah. The Yuppiefication that also destroyed the Village.

And now has almost completed the destruction of Alphabet City and the rest of the Lower East Side. *sigh*

[Romulox]

56. LA is one big traffic jam through squalor to get to your gated community.

Yuck.

[whathehell]

115. True...but it's a draw for a lot of performers...and it does have a beach!

[MilesColtrane]

118. I just got kicked out of my Dallas neighborhood.

The landlord sold my place.

When I moved in 15 years ago there were 5 musicians on my street... that I knew of.

The neighborhood was also a haven for visual artists, writers, aspiring filmmakers, and other gentle, freaky people.

Now all the old places have been torn down and replaced with million dollar, zero lot McMansions

[Dappleganger]

124. Gentle, freaky people.

Sounds like my idea of heaven. ;)

[BrklynLiberal]

20. No small thanks to "I favor term limits except for me" Mayor Bloomberg..

[Hannah Bell]

22. mission accomplished. that was the plan, nyc = gated community.

[chelsea0011]

24. No kidding? New York is expensive to live in?

[Warren DeMontague]

25. I like Patti Smith, but I can't stand Manhattan.

Sorry, you couldn't pay me enough to live on the East Coast. Under any circumstances.

[starroute]

32. What you can or can't stand isn't the point

New York used to be a magnet for creative young people of all kinds. Artists, writers, musicians -- everybody flocked to the city. And it was a great cultural melting pot where innovative ideas of all kinds bounced from one person and one circle of acquaintances to another.

That kind of creative ferment probably peaked in the 1950's. In the 60's, New York was still a center, but it wasn't in the lead the same way. And after that, the perks that had made it possible to be young and struggling, from free museum admission to cheap theater tickets, gradually vanished along with the rent-controlled apartments.

Cities are and always have been the centers of artistic and intellectual innovation, and to write off a once-great cultural center like New York just because you personally wouldn't want to live there is awfully short-sighted.

[Warren DeMontague]

40. Oh, I know, NYC residents fancy 'emselves at the center of the universe of EVERYTHING, Daaahling

See, I don't give a shit. In fact, that attitude is one of the numerous things I can't stand about the place.

But, news flash- I'm not in charge of real estate prices or loft rental rates there, either. In fact, the more people like me who avoid the East Coast like the plague, the cheaper it will be for the people who actually want to be there, to be there.

[dflprincess]

45. New York City IS the center of the universe

I'm finally getting back there for 4 days later this month and I can't wait.

Don't be surprised if you hear about a passenger causing a scene at LaGuardia because her friends had to drag her kicking & screaming onto the plane back to Minneapolis.

[Warren DeMontague]

49. I'm not gonna bag on Minneapolis, but, uh...

That's not really what I'm talking about.

[readmoreoften]

77. No it's just the center of banking and advertising. That's why I left.

The city is nothing like it was even in the late 20th century. It's College Island with expanded student banking and shopping services. NYC is nothing but high rent and museums that you can't get time off to visit if you actually live there.

[CommonSensePLZ]

52. Hey! I'm a Manhattanite! ...And I dislike the city as well

Hoping to move soon for the reasons listed here and many others as well, such as how cold, distant and intractable it's become, the near impossibility of finding a job around here, especially one that pays enough for a young person like me to live on, especially with prospective employers that don't play mind games.

NY, you don't <3 me and that feeling is mutual.

[Stevenmarc]

34. That's ok

One less person we need to deal with.

[Warren DeMontague]

41. Damn straight.

Just remember, Oregon is a nightmare. It's awful. Under no circumstances does anyone want to move here. None.

[LanternWaste]

70. Thank goodness people have a great deal of...

Thank goodness people have a great deal of varying opinions on where they would or would not like to live.

On the other hand, there's always going to be a handful who believe their opinions are somehow... better, more absolute. :shrug:

[Warren DeMontague]

83. My opinions are absolute, 100% correct and irrefutable in their perfection. At least, in my own head

They are, as the song says, the only vote that matters.

...to me.

[LanternWaste]

89. I have little doubt you believe that to be the case...

I have little doubt you believe that to be the case...

[Warren DeMontague]

91. It's a fact.

When I say "I like chocolate pudding", it would be extremely difficult for you to prove that I'm wrong.

[Stephanie]

103. You said it

It's fascinating how people who'd never stand a chance of making it here love to bash New York.

[Warren DeMontague]

107. Actually, what's fascinating is how neurotic and self-defensive people are about a place

that is supposed to be so self-evidently superior in every regard.

Places like, say, San Francisco don't need to puff themselves up and be all "in your face, yo" (another charming East Coast trait.. ugh.) to convince people how culturally indispensable they are-- in fact, most people on the West Coast have better things to do than give a shit.

Like go outside.


ps, sister, I survived living in downtown Chicago in the post Reagan-Bush I recession. There's nothing Manhattan could threaten me with that even remotely scares me.

And likewise, nothing it could offer that remotely interests me.

My attitude towards NYC is sort of like my attitude towards Vegas, except I can find Vegas interesting for 3-4 days.... NYC maybe for a weekend, tops.

[Stevenmarc]

108. I applaud you

for coming to grips with your obvious limitations and NYC is a much better place for that.

[Warren DeMontague]

110. Yep, that's exactly what I'm talking about.

Case in point.






...





:boring:






...

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

48. Spent a few summers in the New York area as a kid...

I would rather be dead and buried in California than living in New York.

[Warren DeMontague]

50. Lotta people love it, and more power to 'em.

It is definitely NOT my speed.

[janet118]

28. Providence RI is still cool and relatively cheap . . .

lots of artists' lofts in old factory areas, near design school, good music, restaurants, etc.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

43. Bingo

Eventually, any city becomes too big for the little guy if everyone wants to live there. The trick for those with an imagination is to find a place outside the norm.

Providence is a great city, the best in New England. And yes, that includes Boston.

[kgnu_fan]

33. Denver is getting interesting though...very talented young artists

are coming to this mid-western city...creating something new....

[fujiyama]

106. First time I've heard of Denver being referred to as mid-west

but it seems like a nice city. One I've never been to.

[geardaddy]

35. Minneapolis was once a good place to be an artist.

It still is in some respects, but the City Council and the Mayor (even though there's not a R among them) can't pass up any development. They just loves them some developers.

[tango-tee]

117. I lived in St Paul many years ago

and definitely enjoyed the Twin Cities. The beautiful parks! Como Park in St. Paul, Minnehaha Falls in Minneapolis. Plus lots of young people, bookstores, mom-and-pop eateries, thanks to the universities and colleges, all coming together an open-minded atmosphere. I haven't been back in 16 years, I wonder if it has changed a great deal?

[troubledamerican]

46. Brilliant observation, Patti, 16 years after Giuliani did this. Timely.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

47. I know people making six figures in New York living like broke college students

You would have to have a financial death wish to even contemplate living there and it is still a dysfunctional shithole, making $110,000 a year and can't afford a car. Living the fucking dream...

[amborin]

53. no one needs a car in NYC

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

88. well they certainly want one

So they can do things like... buy a decent sized order of groceries from a real supermarket,

[amborin]

92. you live in Costa Mesa, CA; when were you last in NYC?

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

95. Uhh, about seven times in the last year

[amborin]

109. i was only there half that # of times last year, but

i was able to get groceries in a real grocery store

[whathehell]

54. True...My niece and her huz spend about

$1700 for a 700 square ft. non-updated railroad apartment in Brooklyn...They share it with two little kids, a dog and a cat.

It's all they can afford, even though he earns a six figure income, what with loan repayments to make, etc...It's a tough mofo

[proteus_lives]

58. Madness!

I pay less then $500 a month for 2100 square ft where I live.

[whathehell]

96. Wow...

I see you live in Indiana...Can you tell us what town?

[proteus_lives]

101. Lafayette.

[whathehell]

111. College town?

[proteus_lives]

120. West Lafayette is the college town.

I live right across the bridge in Lafayette.

[taught_me_patience]

51. Due to insane anti-development policies

We need to build more homes/apartments in NYC, San Francisco, and LA to make it more affordable. Of course... nimbys will be completely and totally against this.

[JHB]

60. Oh, they're building pleny of apartments & condos in NYC and the surrounding area...

...all "luxury" places that practically require 6-figure incomes to afford.

None of the new places are for "the rest of us".

[Nye Bevan]

74. Rent control is a major reason for this

The lack of affordable new rental construction, that is. See the Krugman article in post 69.

[closeupready]

57. New York has become very suburban.

Every single day it seems to become more white, affluent and less minority.

[upi402]

59. Patti Smith rocks. Of course we want to spread Cheez Whiz on white bread

and stick flags and Jesus fishies on everything instead of graffiti. Makes me want to buy some Krylon.

[Nye Bevan]

63. Rent control is a big cause of this problem.

New York City and San Francisco (which someone mentioned earlier as being just as unaffordable to newcomers) both have rent control, while Chicago (mentioned above as a city that is much more affordable) does not. While rent control (introduced in NYC as a temporary measure during World War 2) is meant to help the poorest, the middle class actually benefit far more from it.

http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-274.html

[comrade snarky]

66. Cato Institute? Really?

No agenda there...
Rent control is the only thing keeping San Francisco from complete gentrification. Sure, it's rent control that causes a housing shortage, not the fact that both Manhattan and San Francisco are incredibly popular places to live and both are limited by geography to a relatively small area.

No, lets toss out the poor and elderly, there's money to be made! Thanks libertarians!

[Nye Bevan]

69. OK, how about Nobel Prize winner Paul Krugman?

or does he too have an "agenda"?

http://www.nytimes.com/2000/06/07/opinion/reckonings-a-rent-affair.html


The analysis of rent control is among the best-understood issues in all of economics, and -- among economists, anyway -- one of the least controversial. In 1992 a poll of the American Economic Association found 93 percent of its members agreeing that ''a ceiling on rents reduces the quality and quantity of housing.'' Almost every freshman-level textbook contains a case study on rent control, using its known adverse side effects to illustrate the principles of supply and demand. Sky-high rents on uncontrolled apartments, because desperate renters have nowhere to go -- and the absence of new apartment construction, despite those high rents, because landlords fear that controls will be extended? Predictable. Bitter relations between tenants and landlords, with an arms race between ever-more ingenious strategies to force tenants out -- what yesterday's article oddly described as ''free-market horror stories'' -- and constantly proliferating regulations designed to block those strategies? Predictable.

And as for the way rent control sets people against one another -- the executive director of San Francisco's Rent Stabilization and Arbitration Board has remarked that ''there doesn't seem to be anyone in this town who can trust anyone else in this town, including their own grandparents'' -- that's predictable, too.


And why haven't Chicago and Boston succumbed to "complete gentrification", since these cities do not have rent control?

[closeupready]

75. They have, essentially.

Not sure why you suggest they have not? Even worse than New York, would be my guess.

[Nye Bevan]

79. See Post 2 by mopinko, who actually lives in Chicago

unlike you and me.

[closeupready]

82. Whatever.

Doesn't matter.

[whathehell]

113. I'd say

it does matter if you're looking for a hip, affordable city. I've lived in NYC & Chicago..I'd take Chicago any day of the week.

[whathehell]

112. Nope. I've lived in Chicago for over twelve years...Still an affordable city.

I live in a two room high rise apartment in a great neighborhood...It's a corner unit that has 180 degree views of the city and the lake.

This unit cost it's owner $$150,000, a fact my New Yorker niece couldn't believe...When she first walked in she said: "This apartment would cost a million bucks in New York"!

I'll take her word for it.;)

[comrade snarky]

97. I wasn't aware that as a Democrat

I'm required to agree with everything Paul Krugman says.

Different cities face different situations. Without strong rent control the tech boom of the 90s would have resulted in the exclusion of the poor from San Francisco. It was bad enough anyway. The idea that if rent control were removed (at a time when the area population was increasing at that insane rate) would decrease rent prices is about as sensible as the idea that letting petroleum companies decide which regulations to follow would result in a pristine oil free Gulf of Mexico.

Oh and in SF... no buildings built after 1979 are included in the rent control laws. What was that reason new apartments aren't being built again? Rent control fears from over 30 years ago?

[Nye Bevan]

98. You're welcome to disagree with 93% of economists.

And of course just because Paul Krugman won the Nobel, and you didn't, doesn't necessarily mean that he is right and you are wrong.

But leaving aside the debate among economists (or should I say the almost unanimous agreement among economists) I find it interesting how many DUers upthread praise Chicago, a city with no rent control, as being affordable and welcoming to newcomers, while NYC is not. If rent control is so essential, I wonder what is going on here.

[comrade snarky]

102. That would be a great point if I was talking about Chicago

Which I'm not.
One size fits all solutions usually don't. Chicago is a fine city but does it have the draw of Manhattan or San Francisco? No... sorry but no it does not. It's also not as geographically limited as I mentioned before.

San Francisco is 49 square miles. 7 by 7 and no more.

[whathehell]

114. I've lived in all of the three cities you're talking about...

As for the "draw" I'd say it depends on what you're looking for....

The "best kept secret" about Chicago is that it has virtually EVERYTHING New York has in a prettier, much less populated package at about half the price....It's major drawback is that it's not on the Eastern Seaboard, so it's less convenient to most of the other big cities.

My favorite city of all is San Francisco...My second is Chicago...Last is NYC.

[comrade snarky]

121. Chicago is a fine city

I haven't spent much time there but what I saw I liked. I'm not trying to disparage it at all.

But what I'm really not trying to get into is the Chicago vs New york rivalry. I've seen what happens to people who do! :evilgrin:

[whathehell]

125. Chicago is more than fine....Chicago is Great!

What happens to NY-Chicago rivals...Inquiring minds want to know!:hippie:

[whathehell]

116. For whatever reason, Chicago has simply remained basically affordable.

Can you spend a couple mil on a condo?...Hell, yes. But if you're a student on a limited budget, you can still find a half decent studio in a good neighborhood like Lincoln Park or Lakeview for about 600 bucks. Try that in SF or NYC!

[Hannah Bell]

122. that one likes the banksters in the greek debt crisis, too.

[KamaAina]

81. Boston once had it, too. It no longer does.

The landlords put a referendum on the statewide ballot so that people in Agawam, Barnstable, etc., could vote on rent control in Boston, Cambridge and Brookline. :eyes: So it went away.

So is Boston any more accessible to young people now than it was then? :shrug:

[Stephanie]

104. Rent control was phased out in 1971. Only the oldsters still have rent control.

Try again.

[WCGreen]

64. I never did get Patti Smith...

Her one big hit was a Bruce Springsteen cover and apparantly, she hung around with Maplethorpe and "defined" rock fashion in the punk age...

For that she is worshipped.

Just don't get it.

[aikoaiko]

67. She was authentic. She influenced the NYC scene which influenced many artists.

And many people liked those artists including her even though she didn't wind up with great commercial success.

But it all started with her being authentic in era when many artists got cheesy (and many stayed cheesy).

[mitchum]

71. Her debut "Horses" is better than the debut album of any of her idols...

with the exception of "Are You Experienced"
It is better than the debut records of:
Bob Dylan
Rolling Stones
Doors
Velvet Underground
Stooges

And it still stands. An astonishing piece of work.

[BurtWorm]

73. She's an intense performer.

She brings a surrealist poetic sensibility to rock and roll, and millions of lyricists, singers and performers owe her a debt.

But if you don't get her, you don't get her. You're not alone, I'm sure.

[Douglas Carpenter]

76. all too true, San Francisco and Boston are only slightly behind in that regard

[MadHound]

78. This happens to any city that becomes popular,

Or any region for that matter. Word gets out there's this hip little place X. People start flooding into X, thus driving down the livability factor of the place. Developers and other commercial leeches also start to swarm in to take advantage of money making opportunities that a growing population brings. X goes downhill even more. Natives of X move out in disgust, living the place to the tender mercies of the recent arrivals, who, having no long term sense of community or history with X, proceed to make it into a hellhole, a place like every other dead end hellhole city. Prices and cost of living goes up, quality of life goes down. Then there is a rumor of another charming hip little city and the process repeats.

I've seen this happen time and again in my life, from small college towns to large cities. It is an inevitable process sadly. That is why I moved away from my hip little place, because it has been taken over and I can't bear to see what it has become on a daily basis.

[Hannah Bell]

123. new york's been "popular" for several hundred years, but always had neighborhoods where

poor workers & artists could afford to live.

[nadinbrzezinski]

85. It is not just the land developers

it is a publishing and music model that has not been courting younger stables for years now, perhaps decades.

And when this generation dies off, well then that is when we will see the effects of those choices.

[KatyaR]

90. I think the young and struggling have been shut out of almost anywhere.

It's hard to get a leg up for everybody these days....

[mitchum]

93. That's why NYC is now just a marketplace and no longer a laboratory

[Crystal Clarity]

94. My daughter is getting by in the E.Village

-with a little help from her friends.

She landed a pretty decent paying marketing job, but it still isn't easy. She and 2 of her Syracuse U girlfriends share a nice apartment in a good location, but there's not alot of square footage for the 3 of them. She's very resourceful but I worry sometimes about what she would do without her roommates. If she were to have to pay rent on her own, she's probably have to relocate.

Fortunately, they're young and having fun, so I try to put my 'mom' worries aside. Plus she's doing really well with 2 promotions already, in less then 2 years out of school. (I just had to get that in there). Yeah, I admit I'm a proud mom... :blush:

But definitely Patti Smith makes a very good point. The cost of living there IS outrageous.

[Nye Bevan]

99. Definitely put your "mom" worries aside. NYC is one of the safest big cities in the world.

Your daughter is safer in New York than she would be in London. It sounds like she's having a blast, and if she can make it there..... Congratulations!

[Vattel]

100. I love NYC, but personally I prefer the west to the east coast,

and both coasts to everything in between. Chicago is a nice town in many ways, but in terms of access to natural beauty, it's shit. In terms of weather, it's shit squared. In terms of diversity, it's no NYC or LA. In terms of great beaches, well there isn't an ocean, so what can you expect?

[whathehell]

119. Sounds like your time in Chicago was limited to a stopover at O'Hare

Umm...What, pray tell, is the "access to natural beauty" in NYC?...I'd say "nada" nothing, or, to be honest "shit".

Chicago has a BEAUTIFUL BLUE "inland sea" called Lake Michigan that's 300 miles long and 60 miles wide....Most 'coasters' who have never seen a Great Lake have NO idea as to how much the Great Lakes resemble, with waves getting as high as 30 feet, the ocean.

In general, it's a FAR prettier city, with WIDE boulevards and Lots of trees...More than New York could dream of....Most of our trees are ON THE STREETS, as opposed to "locked up" in Central Park.

I've lived in: Chicago, New York, San Francisco and Philadelphia....I've lived in Chicago for thirteen winters and I can tell you that he weather is NO worse in Chicago than it is in NYC or Philly..and I say that as one who spent most of my life in Philly, two hours south of NYC.

We have PLENTY of "diversity" here...You've not spent much time in Chicago..If you did, it was thirty years ago.

[WI_DEM]

126. What poor or fledging artist could afford to live in NYC anyway?