Greek protests has "American financial community" (capitalists) worried. Will protests spread?

[Better Believe It]

Three dead as Greece protest turns violent
May 5, 2010

The Greek protesters' ire is aimed against symbols of capitalism, says the BBC's Malcolm Brabant in Athens.

Our correspondent says the deaths will change the equation, increasing pressure Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou who has spoken of "great sacrifices" needed.

But it may also create a backlash against violent protesters, our correspondent says.

Chris Lowe of FTN Financial in New York told the BBC that the US financial community had been shocked by the violent protests.

"The reaction is that people will simply refuse to accept the austerity plan," he said.

"If the Greeks are this upset, then maybe we need to worry about the Portuguese and Spanish and Italians being upset with the cuts they're going to have to make."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8661385.stm






Greek protesters storm the Acropolis
World markets plunge over fears that Greece's economic crisis will spread to other countries despite austerity measures
May 4, 2010

In a dramatic escalation of the anger unleashed by the economic crisis engulfing Greece, communist protesters stormed the Acropolis today as the euro and world markets plunged on concerns about the debt-choked country's huge bailout from the EU and the IMF.

Irate trade unionists took over Athens' ancient landmark as fury over an unprecedented package of austerity measures, agreed in return for a multibillion euro aid package from eurozone nations and the IMF, intensified.

By the break of dawn the citadel's ramparts had been draped with banners proclaiming: "Peoples of Europe rise up."

In Athens, protesting public sector workers said their action had been prompted by "blind anger" over the near-bankrupt government's decision to accept the painful policies.

Furious Greeks have likened the three-year austerity programme and the attendant international monitoring of their public finances, to a foreign occupation.

"We want to send a message to the people of Europe," said Panagiotis Papageorgopoulos, a communist party official marching with the protesters. "We can take control of our fate with organised protests so that our lives are not run by the EU and IMF."

Passing in front of Athens' imposing Greek parliament, demonstrators shouted: "Let the rich pay for the crisis." At the time MPs were debating a draft bill outlining the unpopular economic reforms that will have to be imposed.

"Once these latest measures begin to bite there will be a huge reaction" said businessman Vasillis Stergios. "What we are seeing now are just 'conscience' demonstrations, but when people really find it hard to make ends meet and they become 'necessity' demonstrations there will be a social explosion."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/may/04/greek-protesters-storm-acropolis


This raw video from Reuters shows clashes between police and protesters in the Greek capital’s Sintagma Square, in front of Parliament:

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/05/05/video-of-protests-in-greece/

[fascisthunter]

1. I Wish it Would

[Echo In Light]

4. +1000 Civil Disobedience NOW

[blindpig]

5. The sooner the better

before they finish impoverishing us all and kill the biosphere.

[fasttense]

2. Let the rich pay for the crisis. Why should the poor an middle class always have to

pay for the uber wealthy's mistakes?

[loudsue]

16. THAT is what has to change. And it has to change NOW.

This whole economic crisis is happening because the uber rich have gotten their way on every single issue in the past 30 years, and now they have jumped the shark so badly this time that the whole world is ready to explode.

THIS is why impeachment should NEVER have been off the table. THIS is why Halliburton moved to Dubai. There have been two sets of rules in the world for way too long: one set of rules for the wealthy, the powerful, the military and the police/administrators, and another entirely different set of rules for the rest of the people.

This is the end of that era, or the entire world is going to burn.

[arthritisR_US]

32. yep, this two tier living structure sucks!

:mad:

[tbyg52]

44. Amen, amen.

I'm listening to complaints on the network news about overpaid public servants. Let's hear about overpaid bankers. I heard on the radio on the way home that old people's pensions have been cut by half.

[girl gone mad]

3. This is what happens..

when governments bail out failed fatcat bankers, who proceed to pay themselves record bonuses and resume unabated their gaming of the "free" markets, then governments tell the little guy he will have to make huge sacrifices to pay for a calamity he had no real part in.

[dkf]

6. The world should let Greece sink or swim on it's own.

Get them out of the euro and let them decide how to keep their economy afloat. If they don't want to cut their expenses they can hyperinflate and see where that leaves the Greek people.

[Better Believe It]

9. So you think cutting benefits for working class people is a good policy?

I couldn't figure out what you propose to do. Who do you think should pay for the world-wide financial mess caused by the banksters and financial "services" industry .... the big financial interests or working people?

[dkf]

11. If they get out of the euro they won't cut benefits they will print drachmas and inflate the

Currency. This will increase the cost of foreign goods but their nominal salaries could remain the same.

[Better Believe It]

12. That has not been a major demand of the demonstrators. So what do you think they should demand?

They don't want the IMF and European Central Bank dictating to them cuts in pensions, wages and other programs that benefit working people and higher sales taxes (VAT)forced on workers in return for this "aide". Who exactly will get that $100 billion plus in economic aide?

[Statistical]

19. Yeah they want high benefits (social safety net) without paying for it.

They have more in common with teaparty members than socialists.
Socialists accept that a large social safety net requires taxes.

Greeks simply don't pay taxes and want all the benefits = teaparty.

Kinda crazy concept that is revenue is less than your expenses then either
a) revenue needs to rise (Greeks actually paying taxes).
b) expenses need to decline.

The Austerity package simply mandates that Greece cut deficit from 13% (utterly unsustainable) to 3% within 3 years and provides bridge loans to cover debt coming due in next 2 years. Nothing more.

Citizens of Greece have simply gotten use to EU style social programs with teaparty style taxation.

IMAGINE THAT IT DOESN'T WORK. If you want "stuff" you need to pay for it.

[conspirator]

23. Austerity yadda yadda yadda. Austerity it's just the return to the business as usual

Things go back to "normal" until the next coup by the Robber Barons to steal from the people
NO MORE. Disobeying is better

[Statistical]

25. LOL. How is a bankrupt Greece better.

You think unemployment will go up or down in a Bankrupt Greece.
You think Greece being expelled from EU (and thus interest on everything skyrocketing) will hurt of help middle class in Greece?

When Greece is bankrupt who would be stupid enough to loan them money? Nobody.
So if you can't borrow money you have a defacto balance budget.

Right now Greece expenses are 8.5% HIGHER than revenue. So without ability to borrow it is IMPOSSIBLE that spending will not be cut and taxes go up.

[Better Believe It]

28. So you think the working class in Greece should pay higher taxes while the rich are left alone.

Now what do you think that 100 billion plus "loan" will be used for?

Who is it going to? Who will get that money?

It has to be spent for something. Or is it a merely a bookeeping item and not real money?

The rich caused the crisis here and in Greece.

And now you want the real victims of this crisis to suffer more!

So what measures do you think the United States government should take to cut the federal deficit?

[Statistical]

31. Greece continually spending MORE than it had in revenue caused the crisis.

The loan package is to pay old debt that is coming due. Debt that Greece can't pay otherwise. Hence the reason that Greece needs to frackin loan in the first place.

So what measures do you think the United States government should take to cut the federal deficit?
Right now. Nothing. Growing the economy is more important. Long term (3-5 years from now).
Cutting spending AND raising taxes. Mostly taxes on rich but some on the middle class too. Of course that is uniformily unpopular with everyone (teaparty, socialists, rich, middle class) so likely it won't happen.

If it doesn't the US will "fix" it by inflating our way out which is the silent killer of prosperity. Looks like you are getting richer but somehow everything goes up faster than your wages and you fall further and further behind.

[dkf]

46. If they drop out of the euro they can get control over printing their own money.

Then nominal pay doesn't get cut but the goods you can purchase with those funds won't go as far because of inflation.

But the people of Greece dont want this. They want free money from the rest of Europe (mostly Germany) to support their generous benefits. You do know Greek workers get 14 months of pay for 12 months of work a year? The extra 2 months is a bonus for going to work diligently. Lol. And in Greece you get to retire at 61 to get government benefits while the Germans have to work to 67.

So the Germans are expected to pony up and work til they are 67 to provide 2 month bonuses and retirement at 61 for the Greeks. Pretty screwed up wouldn't you say?

[Hekate]

7. Gee, now that they mention it, not a bad idea

[SemiCharmedQuark]

8. I think killing 3 innocent bank workers will probably hurt their cause rather than help it.

[Better Believe It]

10. That's the only bright spot the capitalists and their media whores can see.

They along with every right-wingnut are trying to use it against the protesters.

But, it's a passing thing, to be soon forgotten, that was organized by a small minority who were probably urged on by police provocateurs.

That turns out to usually be the case as it was in Iran during last years mass anti-government demonstrations.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

13. You seem to be quite glib concerning the lives of 3 people.

Protesting != Rioting

Rioting often leads to violence, with or without police presence. This is true even when the riots are over relatively inane things (basketball championships).

Protesters should distance themselves from that minority you speak of.

[readmoreoften]

15. You seem to be glib about the lives of millions. It's a general strike. Those who went to work

are scabs. Millions are on strike; there was no earthly reason to go to work. No "have to feed my family" BS. They chose their side, and they'll pay the consequences. Just like the protestors who will inevitably die somewhere in the world right now.

The Greek working class is fighting for their lives. Those who break strikes are probably not going to be treated kindly.

[SpartanDem]

17. So they had it coming?

it takes a very sick person to excuse murder

[fascisthunter]

26. tell that to Wall Street as well

[Silent3]

18. "Those who break strikes are probably not going to be treated kindly."

Are you advocating mob violence against people who don't join the strike? Or just rejoicing in the potential for that?

[blindpig]

36. Breaking a strike is not the same as not joining a strike,

though it is deplorable enough.

Scabs are scabs and should be treated as such.

[Silent3]

38. "Scabs are scabs and should be treated as such."

And how is that?

Yelled at?
Beaten?
Slashed with broken beer bottles?
Raped?
Sprayed with gasoline and set ablaze?

Just wondering what the appropriate response is.

[blindpig]

40. Historically speaking...

a run of the mill ass whooping generally does the trick.

[Silent3]

41. So which do you prefer?

Or do you just go along with whatever the angry mob wants to dish out at the moment?

[blindpig]

42. Angry mob or workers struggling for justice?

Quite a difference.

Look, nobody wants this shit, but sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do. Play by the Queensberry Rules and you'll get nowhere, they wrote 'em for just that purpose.

Fuck the banks, let them eat their losses. Better yet, expropriate them.

[Silent3]

45. We aren't talking about banks eating financial losses here.

We're talking about violently assaulting people just because they aren't supporting something you're supporting. Want to throw out "Queensberry Rules"? Fine. Try to beat me and I'll shoot you. Perhaps in a situation like that I should go after your family too... none of this "innocent bystanders" crap. Can't be too soft or maybe others won't get the message.

Your screen name... it's so incredibly apt.

[Better Believe It]

22. Like I said: "They along with every right-wingnut are trying to use it against the protesters."

However, you and other liberals/progressives should not join that right-wing chorus and attack on the protesters.

And you have not even considered the idea that it was in fact police "agent provocateurs" who may have organized or at least encouraged the violent act.

You might want to wait for all of the facts and evidence to emerge before giving any aide and comfort to those elements who stand to gain from those deaths. It certainly isn't the protesters.

[Abq_Sarah]

35. The police didn't force those protesters

To murder 3 people.

[Better Believe It]

47. So you support the cops and hate the working class victims of this crisis?

I remember hearing people defend the cops when they were beating in the heads of civil rights and anti-war protesters in the 60's.

And we saw cops performing their political duty during the anti-government demonstrations in Iran.

How often do you see government cops supporting the protests and demonstrations of working people?

[conspirator]

24. How many people have been killed by disaster and imperial capitalism. Do you worry about those? nt

[librechik]

14. Jump, You Fuckers! (TM)

let's go for it again and again.

[killbotfactory]

20. Capitalism is a casino

If you play by the house rules, you get screwed.

Work all your life, retire, stay poor. The financial and political elite play games with our money, and make us shoulder the burden when it all goes to shit. And we accept it because we are told it's a democracy, and that we can hold the government accountable, when it's really a corrupt plutocracy and people have little to no say about how it's actually run.

[conspirator]

21. Go Greeks! Go Greeks!

:bounce:

[Downtown Hound]

27. So how many people on this board are willing to be arrested?

It's one thing to talk about it people, it's another to do it. If you really want to see civil disobedience happen, stop waiting for others and go out and do it. That simple.

I mean this in as pleasant a way possible. And if any of you are serious, PM me and I can help you get in touch with groups that commit non-violent civil disobedience. But it's never going to happen unless people stop talking and start doing.

[Better Believe It]

29. So what organizations do you think ought to call mass demonstrations

in response to the Obama administration willingness to support for huge cuts in Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security benefits?

Those massive cuts are on the table!

We don't necessarily need civil disobedience, at least not until masses of people are ready to participate in such actions and clearly we are not at that point now.

I have never liked tiny civil disobedience actions involving just a few people. They have little or no impact. Now that civil rights civil disobedience that violated Jim Crow laws in the 50's and 60's had a powerful impact because many thousands participated in them and they were backed up by even larger mass rallies and demonstrations such as the a963 March on Washington.

But, we do need to organize mass protests around issues like jobs, jobs, jobs, more jobs, jobs, immigrant rights, civil rights, jobs, more jobs, lower taxes for working people, tax the rich, jobs, more jobs, etc.,

[Downtown Hound]

30. Try the Ruckus Society

I got on their mailing list a little while ago. And I'm still on unofficial probation from the last time I got arrested due to the group they led me to. And I mean that affectionately, heh, heh.

My charges of Obstruction of Traffic and Disobeying a Peace Officer were "continued for dismissal" meaning that they can still charge me for a period of one year after my arrest if they so choose. That one year period will be up in roughly 3 weeks, so I can go and be a criminal again with only minimal consequences the next time. I still haven't figured out just where I'm going to focus my energy next, but I'm strongly leaning towards some kind of non-violent direct action aimed at the financial institutions. Better not say anything more than that, heh heh.

http://ruckus.org/

[Downtown Hound]

33. Protest however you want

But one of the main reason why tiny demonstrations of civil disobedience remain tiny is because too many people don't join them because they're waiting for others to do it. They can't really get big until people join them, now, can they? The people that engage in those tiny demonstration would love to have hundreds or thousands join them. But they go and do it anyways because they know that ultimately the revolution starts with them, not somebody else.

And just so you know, I was arrested along with 211 other people outside the steps of the California State Supreme Court when they upheld prop 8 last year. There was NOTHING tiny about that bit of civil disobedience.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VB1SzihxCRY&feature=related

[upi402]

34. When lumpy gets his cable cut off

Yes, there will be riots here. And people will eventually look for the criminals.

[Echo In Light]

37. Brings to mind the conclusion to Natural Born Killers' prison riot scene

[FLPanhandle]

39. I feel for the average worker who wasn't responsible for this mess.

The Greek government should never have let their spending get so out of hand. The Greek government should have tightened up their tax law enforcement and raised taxes on all of those that could afford it.

The government went on spending like a teenager with a credit card. Now daddy won't pay it, and they have to work it off. They can protest and yell all they want, it won't change the fundamental problem. The bill is due.

The other governments such as Spain & Italy need to act now by cutting spending and raising revenue before they get to the end too.

[Lint Head]

43. We missed our chance during the Bush dictatorship.

It should spread. The uber-rich have been getting a free ride for too long.