I'm old enough to remember when all the Irish bars in Queens...

[alcibiades_mystery]

used to let a little kid like me come in to watch or listen to the baseball game while the older folks talked over a pint. Or three.

In all the Irish bars there was a little tin, and in that tin went money, and that money went to Northern Ireland, sometimes under the pretence of "Catholic Charities" or "Widows and Orphans of the Troubles," and sometimes without even that thin veneer. In any case, everybody knew that some part of that money, large or small, was going to buy weapons and munitions and explosives meant for the cities of England, or the Protestant neighborhoods - car bombs and pipe bombs and any kind of bomb you could think of.

Everybody knew. In Irish bars in Queens, Brooklyn, the Bronx (especially the Bronx), Manhattan. In Boston, Baltimore, Chicago. Everybody knew what would happen to the American greenback they placed in those little tins, lifting a pint, and slainte and up the fein. Everybody knew. The grandfathers knew and the grandmothers knew and the muttonchopped men with their pea coat collars turned up knew damn well indeed. And the little kids knew, too, the ones who watched the baseball games while their parents and grandparents talked conspiratorially, read radical newspapers, drank a pint.

I'm old enough to remember seeing a story on the CBS news - Walter Kronkite back then describing a pipe bomb in Manchester or some other northern city in England - blinded a girl, I remember. And I thought of the tin. Even then, as a little kid. I knew.

So I hear now about "revoking citizenship" from the Senator from Connecticut - maybe the same state where a lot of those guys in the Irish bars maybe finally made it to, out of working class Queens at last, or maybe their kids. It wasn't that long ago. For them, too? For my people, too? For there is no mistaking that they - that we - were "involved in terrorism."

And if you grew up Irish in one of our cities in the 1970's and 80's, you know, too. Your grandparents. Your parents, maybe. We all knew.

[Cronus Protagonist]

1. I grew up in Britain

And I did not know that was where these bastards were getting their money and explosives. Lots of little children and innocent people died from the IRA using that money. I have had little respect for Catholics before, and I had less when I found out about these collections. Of course, I have even less now that the scandals are in the news. I doubt my assessment of the level of deserved respect could go any lower now.

[mitchtv]

5. lots died from Brit colonialism

be fair. I have little respect for them. no apologies

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[proteus_lives]

20. Sure, the limeys never laid a hand on the Irish people.

Willful ignorance on parade.

Do I really need to open up a case of google-fu on you?

[dflprincess]

23. As opposed to an army, funded by a nation's taxes

Bloody Sunday November 21, 1920
British forces opened fire on the crowd at a Gaelic football match in Croke Park, killing fourteen Irish civilians

Bloody Sunday January 30, 1972 -
14 civil rights marchers killed; another 13 wounded


And not just in Ireland:

Amritsar massacre (India, 1919)
fifty British Indian Army soldiers, under the command of Brigadier-General Reginald Dyer, opened fire on an unarmed gathering of men, women and children. The firing lasted for ten to fifteen minutes, until ammunition was running short. Official British Raj sources placed the fatalities at 379, and with 1,100 wounded.

Both sides were responsible for killing innocents and spreading terror. Don't carry on as though England was innocent in all the horror.

[Dappleganger]

24. Oh please. nt

[vssmith]

37. Read "Trinity" by Leon Uris

[Captain Hilts]

7. A lot of folks sincerely thought the $$ was to fight poverty in Ireland, which had a lot of poverty.

[Cronus Protagonist]

12. I suppose so.

They were the "good Germans" and the naiive.

[Captain Hilts]

14. I've got family on both sides: IRA and British Army

Irish poverty - in Ireland and in North America - got a lot of media play. nt

[proteus_lives]

8. So you approved of Britain's historical and ongoing oppression in Ireland?

Nice religious smear too. You sound ready to plant a pipe-bomb or two yourself.

[Cronus Protagonist]

13. Ireland is part of the British Isles

And there's no need for the "troubles". The situation was worked out politically a long, long time ago when the island was apportioned according to its own citizens wishes. The people killing children for their "cause" were vagabond right-wing nationalist nut-jobs. Here, you'd think of a teabagger who's actually killing children- that would be equivalent.

[proteus_lives]

19. I know, I know.

"How dare those 'dirty pope-loving micks' fight back" :puke:

"Ireland is part of the British Isles"

Ireland was forced to be part of the British Isles. There, I fixed it for you.

[Selatius]

27. I don't believe the Irish were consulted when someone coined the term "British Isles"

Regardless, I don't support attacking innocent civilians to get a point across. If the IRA had simply planted bombs in front of officer clubs and check points and killed off British soldiers on foot patrol in Northern Ireland, it would be a different ballgame. The history of Northern Ireland is complex. The Scots were brought in in a bid to placate the Scottish population with the promise of new land to start over and to farm for themselves. The English were looking for ways to keep the Scots under control, having put down numerous rebellions against English control, and new land for the Scots was one way of doing it. They didn't consult the Irish people, though, and that's where Northern Ireland gets into the picture.

[Cronus Protagonist]

31. Blame the French then

Grand Britannia

[Selatius]

47. Hah, and I guess the English should escape blame for anglicizing the words?

You are too obtuse.

[roguevalley]

30. it was divided according to the british's wishes and agreed to by

an exhausted irish populace. black and tans? remember them? they did as smart a partition of Ireland as they did a smart partition of the middle east and of africa. british colonialism sucked and was horrendous. ask an Indian, an african, an Irishman. I don't condone the violence on either side at all. wouldn't want it here, don't want it there. But to act like you are the wounded party when you stood on the face of ireland since 1100 is wrong. My mom's family is from Ulster and they are here due to the british treatment of the family in Ireland. They immigrated in 1857. to act like the blame is one sided is stupid and revisionist and the anger on this thread about it is to be expected. Get yer boot off the history books. We know what happened. There are 40 million of us here in America because of the starvation that many a british politician considered a blessing to 'solve the problem of the irish.'

that was then, this is now. That I love to go to England and run around is one of my life's treats.

[Cronus Protagonist]

32. You can read the history books all you want

The hidden fact of history is that it is fiction. History is written by the victors. I lived it. Sure, I saw one side. The one with the bombs. I don't pretend to give a bag of hair for the criminal terrorists. Why would I? Why would anyone?

[LanternWaste]

39. There are quite a few firsthand and post-hoc history books

"History is written by the victors" Looks nice on a bumper sticker, but...

There are quite a few firsthand and post-hoc history books about the War of Spanish Succession written by Spaniards. I believe there are also quite a few histories of the Napoleonic Wars written by French people. Additionally, I've recently read a wonderful history of colonial America and the American War for Independence penned by a Brit.


"The hidden fact of history is that it is fiction"
Which is quite simply the most absurd thing I've read this week. Maybe a dozen or so dropped qualifiers didn't appear on my screen, though.

[JerseygirlCT]

45. This

"There are 40 million of us here in America because of the starvation that many a british politician considered a blessing to 'solve the problem of the irish.'"

Is the part that should never be forgotten.

[bettyellen]

38. the irish just happily gave away their land to scots? are you fucking kidding me?

[Tailormyst]

42. Ireland is it's own fucking island

I am pretty sure no Irishman said "Hey, from now on let's refer to our Island as part of the BRITISH Isles".

So fucking arrogant.

[TheBigotBasher]

35. What ongoing oppression in Ireland?

Northern Ireland has voted for and passed a lasting, although strainedd peace agreement. Funding of services such as health and education per capita is much higher there. There is power sharing between Unionists and Nationalists.

[CountAllVotes]

9. gee bastards and Catholics

all in one post. I think I know where you are at.

:puke:

[Cronus Protagonist]

15. I lived in feasr of these bombs all through my childhood

Nice sneer, though.

[Captain Hilts]

16. Write your MP to support getting out of Northern Ireland. nt

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HipChick]

25. I don't think I ever lived in fear...even though I had a good friend blown to pieces..

It always made me very aware of my surroundings...my 2 best friends growing up were from N.Ireland...they went back and forth, before settling in england after they left school at 16...
I always thought it was common knowledge of the funding from N.America..

[AngryAmish]

40. Well, they were getting the money from me.

[Tailormyst]

41. Frankly, the British has their own fair share of killing over history

And in the case of Northern Ireland they were far from innocent.

[Hardrada]

2. Good point! Makes one think

though as a Norski we are the least terrorist Americans! Despite our opinions about Sweden.

[htuttle]

4. In modern times, sure. But...

[Hardrada]

48. Well, there was THAT! I was hoping no one would remember.

[kelly1mm]

3. I remember those types of pubs in San Francisco. One time, an

older gentleman (whom my father said was a big deal to meet) said to me at about age 9, "You need to grow up strong you can help free Ireland when you are older. We are counting on lads like you." Kind of freaked me out.

[leveymg]

34. In Santa Cruz, Poet & Patriot, a tin cup with a taped note: "No Guns"

I didn't have a lot of greenbacks to give, but I trusted the note.

If that makes me a terrorist, you can take away my citizenship, Senator Joe. But, you're the one with divided loyalties and lots of blood on his hands, not I.

[Cleita]

6. I worked in one of those pubs.

But to the credit of the owners, who were Irish from the old country, every time one of those terrorist enablers came in with their newspapers or their tin for the children of Ireland they would throw them in the trash. Some of the expat Irish wouldn't patronize the pub because of this. However, the owners didn't really lose business and the bar was very popular among the general population that wasn't Irish but who wanted to drink the brews and listen to the music.

Edited to add that this was in Los Angeles, not Queens. My bad. :blush:

[KonaKane]

10. Oh those poor Brits, and the trouble they had putting boots on the necks of the Irish

Yeah, how dare the Irish fight back - tin cup tinkle at a time.

You call it terrorism, I would call it a freedom fight. Gu nu slann An Phoblacht.

[alcibiades_mystery]

21. It always looks like a freedom fight when you're the one setting off the car bombs

That's how the whole thing works.

[Cleita]

22. Blowing up families in those "other" neighborhoods isn't exactly

a freedom fight and misrepresenting yourself as collecting money for children isn't honest. I know the Brits there where no better than we are in Afgh. or Iraq, however funding terrorism because of tit for tat just isn't a winning situation.

[KamaAina]

17. The first Irish bar where I ever saw that tin

was in New Haven. LIEberman's home town.

edit: I knew, too. But it didn't dawn on me until after I'd left, and deposited a greenback of my own. The tin was marked, if memory serves, "Irish Northern Aid Committee".

[dflprincess]

26. Irish Northern Aid was a big organization

on the one hand, they never made that much of a secret where the money went - but they never out right said it would go the IRA either. But everyone knew - with the possible exception of my friend's grandmother who just wouldn't believe what those "nice people" would be doing with the money she sent them.

[htuttle]

36. Noraid used to run a huge booth at Irishfest in Milwaukee every year

They sold a whole variety of militant T-shirts and bumper stickers there, including IRA ones, so it was no secret indeed.

They still might be there every year. I haven't been to Irishfest in quite a while :shrug:

[Hekate]

28. Very well written-- it should be an LTTE. I remember a lot of joy went out of calling myself Irish

... along about that time, and my people never spent any time in Irish pubs, there being none where we were. We loved singing Clancy Bros. music, and somewhere in there they themselves stopped glorifying war in their music.

Lieberman has become a caricature, a schmuck, a putz. Can I make it any plainer? The guy needs to retire and stfu.

The public, so ready to throw away their freedoms and the freedoms of others (but not the freedom to own guns! witness the statements of Repubs in Congress today), should be reminded that sometimes it's about people you actually know.

Hekate

[jberryhill]

29. Welcome to America, please check your baggage at the door /nt

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

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[On the Road]

43. And Even the Churn Was Complicit:

"Father, forgive me. I have just blown up twenty miles of English railroad tracks.
"You are forgiven, my son. For your penance, do the stations."

[slackmaster]

44. I've always felt a little uncomfortable putting money in an IRA

:scared:

[YOY]

46. Yanno...in the Italian bars there is no tin cup. There are brass knuckles though...

Usually the goal of that involves money changing hands too!

You ever wanna stop by you might want some camoflage...



and you don't wanna take the kids. When Big Joey is hitting the sauce...he gets "colorful".

[JVS]

50. If you show up at a bar wearing a Chachi costume, you're going to get your ass kicked.

[YOY]

53. Or be the life of the party. Depends on the bar.

Ladies love th' Chach-malach.

[JHB]

49. How about revoking Peter King's citizenship?

Back in the day he was practically the IRA's Man in Washington.

[annabanana]

51. ding ding!!!

He was the point man.

[alcibiades_mystery]

52. No doubt

King was so deep in Noraids ass that he'd need a bonafide shillelagh to get wedged out.

[H2O Man]

54. Oh, sure.

Let's attack the Irish.

On another note, my older son showed me a copy of a paper he is working on for some class in college, which has a similar theme as the OP. I told him a few stories about people I introduced him to, when he was wee-little.

The US government, I might add, has funded terrorism around the globe.