California high school students couldn't wear American flag clothing today because of Cinco de Mayo

[alp227]

In Morgan Hill (south of San Jose), Live Oak High School sent five students home to change clothing. Today is Cinco de Mayo, and the five boys chose to wear clothing decorated with American flags or red, white, and blue patterns. The school claimed that those boys would create hostility toward Mexican students at the school. The Morgan Hill Unified School District issued this dissenting statement: "In an attempt to foster a spirit of cultural awareness and maintain a safe and supportive school environment, the Live Oak High School administration took certain actions earlier today. The district does not concur with the Live Oak High School administration's interpretation of either board or district policy related to these actions."

Sure, those boys wanted to show their pride, eh? Well the local newspaper reports that the Mexican students didn't have it easy either:

One Mexican-American student, freshman Laura Ponce, had a Mexican flag painted on her face and chest, peaking out of her low-cut shirt. She did it because, "it's our day, the only day we can show our spirit." A school administrator took away the Mexican flag she was carrying as she was waiting to go home. Ponce said: "not cool."

"There was a lot of drama going on today," Ponce said. Some were saying "Mexico sucks" while Mexican-American students responded in their second language.

The parents of the boys did the easy thing: rather than consider the consequences, the parents simply defended the boys' patriotism. But why did those boys choose a Mexican cultural holiday? This doesn't pass the coincidence test to me. The local Fox station's news reported that one of the involved students was half Mexican.

Sources:
"Morgan Hill Students Stir Cinco De Mayo Controversy". KTVU: May 5, 2010
Lindsey Bryant, "Five LOHS students sent home for wearing American flag T-shirts". Morgan Hill Times: May 5, 2010.

This incident reminds me of the "Compton Cookout" frat party at the University of California at San Diego held back in February to mock Black History Month.

So I wonder if these other kind of similar situations are just as dumb. I'm talking generally counter-expressions to cultural holidays, such as:
- On Independence Day, waving Canadian flags (or any other non-American flags) and cheering on Canada. OK, hockey fans, I know that the US lost to Canada in Olympic hockey, but that ain't an excuse. Who's really thinking about hockey during the summer? (Speaking of Independence Day, KTVU quoted one Mexican student saying "we don't go around on 4th of July wearing red white and green and saying ‘Viva Mexico,’ because that's disrespectful.")
- On Christmas, walking around with a T-shirt reading "Jesus is a myth" or "Proud Atheist" or generally expressing sacrilege/blasphemy during religious holidays...other examples include going out wearing a T-shirt with the controversial Muhammad cartoon during Ramadan.

Oh, I just found this image on Wikipedia's article about Cinco de Mayo featuring our beloved former President, George W. Bush. Don't you miss him?

[proteus_lives]

1. So, the Mexican students are allowed to display a foreign nation's flag....

But the Stars and Stripes is a no-no?

Ok.

[alp227]

3. This policy just took place during Cinco de Mayo.

Let me clarify: The school was concerned that the students would be attacked by Mexican students who felt that the American flag clothing symbolized racial hostility. I mean, why exactly did the kids choose a Mexican cultural holiday to show American pride? As I said, it does NOT pass the coincidence test! Any other day, no one would notice, the American flag T-shirts are just, oh well.

[proteus_lives]

4. Then they should have made the Mexican girl wash the flag off her face.

Lest she be "attacked" by white students.

This reeks of pandering.

All flags or no flags.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mudoria]

18. +1

[Toucano]

11. be attacked by Mexican students who felt that the American flag clothing symbolized racial hostility

Nobody gets to attack anybody.

For any reason.


Why shouldn't THAT be the school policy?


Have we thrown our hands so far to the air that we no longer bother teaching tolerance at all?

You see, it's dicky to wear the stars and stripes on cinco de mayo, but the dicky get to be dicky. You don't get to attack them for being dicky. Or being brown. Or being jewish. Or being gay. Or being muslim. Or Amish.

D'uh!

[EFerrari]

88. The teacher didn't say that. I watched the same report.

Teacher wanted to avoid conflict and did not say "Mexican kids might attack" anyone.

[Goblinmonger]

121. Why should facts get in the way of things.

I am amazed at what I am reading on this thread.

[Recovered Repug]

14. While Cinco de Mayo may be a holiday in Mexico,

those of us with basic map reading skills can recognize that California AIN'T IN MEXICO. Hasn't been part of Mexico for over 150 years. So celebrating Cinco de Mayo is all well and good, but if they're offended by others wearing the American flag - then they can suck it up and deal with it.

[Goblinmonger]

30. Yeah, suck it up Hispanics.

Stop being such damn whiners.

:sarcasm: for the challenged.

[MellowDem]

35. Actually, Mexicans...

I doubt other Hispanics from other countries care much about it. In fact, Mexicans don't really care much about it. It is pretty much an American holiday anymore.

[Goblinmonger]

39. I believe she is an American.

But if I should use Mexican rather than Hispanic, fine.

[leftynyc]

92. That's right - suck it up

Since when do we have a right not to be offended? Since when is it okay to be violent because you don't like what someone is wearing? Have we really gone that far over the edge?

[Goblinmonger]

97. You have heard about the new laws in Arizona, right?

And the general attitude toward Hispanics from the right wing, right? You don't think that wears on high school kids for some reason?

[leftynyc]

105. I hate that fucking law

It's unconsitutional and I was totally with the Los Suns last night. I'd like to know when it became a problem to wear the flag of the country you are a citizen of. And since you seem to be able to crawl into these kid's minds and determine motive, why do they need to be more tolerant than the Mexican-American kids?

[Iggo]

60. It's an American Holiday.

Kinda like St Patrick's Day.

[EFerrari]

110. Un, this is mostly an American, not Mexican, holiday

and the hispanic students at the school didn't make this decision so attacking them makes no sense whatsoever.

[a la izquierda]

135. It's a small regional holiday in Mexico...

jeez louise. Can't even be bothered to google cinco de mayo and figure out what it's about.

It's about as Mexican as St. Patrick's day.

[Caliman73]

142. Apparently you have not "Recovered" enough

That is straight up Republican ignorance there. Cinco de Mayo is not a Mexican holiday, it is not recognized in Mexico outside of Puebla. It is a day of cultural heritage for Americans of Mexican ancestry popularized in California then spread throughout communities with larger concentrations of Americans of Mexican ancestry.

I think the school was wrong in sending the students home but it should have been a teaching moment about tolerance for the cultures of other groups. Every day is celebrate America day. We all live here. If there are some White Americans that cannot understand that cultural experiences impact people's lives and don't disappear just because of some arbitrary line on a map, then perhaps they are the ones with the problem.

[rawb44]

19. Convenient

Except for the fact that in the same article you quote, the students are characterized as wearing flags and patriotic gear all the time by other students, up to and including flags sewn on their backpacks. Your "coincidence test" needs a recalibration.

[Goblinmonger]

31. I do believe that having the flag sewn on the backpack

would be against the US Code.

[MellowDem]

40. Fuck the "US code" then...

People should do whatever they want with flags. Wear them as a necktie, or even paint them on their chests as one young Mexican-American girl did.

[Goblinmonger]

43. I'm fine with that

but your post seemed to attempt to make these gentlemen look like fine patriots doing the right thing, and I was just pointing out that the fine patriot acts they were doing were not so much so.

[MellowDem]

50. I don't think I made that the case...

even if they were doing it to be contrarian, it was an incredible overreaction. Lots of kids do contrarian things in school. It's part of growing up. And it sounds like some of them always wore that kind of stuff to school. I saw a lot of controversial stuff worn at my schools.

[MidwestRick]

44. and what is the penalty from this code

if one doesn't follow it?

[Goblinmonger]

49. No clue. Don't really care, frankly.

As I said above, it was just a statement in response to a post that tried to make these guys look like fine young patriots. Sewing a flag on your backpack would not be so much so.

[MidwestRick]

55. Maybe worry about it

once it becomes law and not some "code".

-MR

[Goblinmonger]

72. You really just need to stop talking. You're making yourself look silly.

The U.S. Code is federal law. Google is your friend. Try it before you continue to look even more clueless.

[Statistical]

79. "This is a U.S. federal law, but there is no penalty for failure to comply with it"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Flag_Code

[Goblinmonger]

82. I get that. But the post I responded to

said that it wasn't important because it was "just some 'code'" and not that it was federal law without enforcement.

[MidwestRick]

100. In reading that...

I didn't see anything that should prevent someone from wearing a shirt with the flag represented on it. It's not like they made the flag into a shirt. Otherwise Old navy should be banned from ever producing a shirt with the flag on it.

-MR

[Obamanaut]

83. check this out

“Thus, the Flag Code does not prescribe any penalties for non-compliance nor does it include enforcement provisions; rather the Code functions simply as a guide to be voluntarily followed by civilians and civilian groups…”

More at link http://www.senate.gov/reference/resources/pdf/RL30243.p...

[Goblinmonger]

89. Yeah, I know that

The post I responded to make it pretty clear that they did not understand that the "code" I was talking about was federal law.

[Obamanaut]

66. I believe the 'flag code' is simply a guideline for handling/display of

the flag, with no penalties attached for failure to follow the 'code'

“Thus, the Flag Code does not prescribe any penalties for non-compliance nor does it include enforcement provisions; rather the Code functions simply as a guide to be voluntarily followed by civilians and civilian groups…”

More at link http://www.senate.gov/reference/resources/pdf/RL30243.p...

[Statistical]

77. Soldiers have flags sewn onto uniforms. n/t

[Goblinmonger]

90. You really don't see the difference? n/t

[Statistical]

96. The flag code doesn't either.

A flag patch is a legitimate method to display the flag.

[Llewlladdwr]

133. A patch representing the US flag, however, would not. NT

[Statistical]

62. "the American flag clothing symbolized racial hostility."

WTF?

Last time I check this is America.
The idea you can't display American flag because it symbolizes racial hostility is utter undefendable BS.

Is there racial hostility in the US? Sure I am not naive enough to pretend it doesn't exist.
If that an excuse to ban the American flag? Not just no but hell no.

[Goblinmonger]

73. Minors do not have the same rights as everyone else.

Schools have ability to control that which is a distraction to the education environment.

[Statistical]

76. I never said minors have right.

I just think it is a massive and extreme over reaction by the school board to ban American flags.

[Goblinmonger]

86. I think it is a massive overstatement to say they banned American flags

These kids wore it and in the estimation of the school it was to cause problems. They can wear it on May 4th, May 6th and probably every other day if they want. Just not as a racist statement on May 5th. That's hardly banning.

[MidwestRick]

102. "hardly" banning?

Was it banned or was it not? Did the school prevent the students from wearing their shirts or not. They did, without prior notice to the students or parents in the community. To say they didn't ban the shirts is not true.

-MR

[StarlightGold]

114. "Racist statement"?????

I really don't believe for a moment you think that way. These kids don't ever need to justify wearing American flag shirts in school whatever day it is. I almost thought that this was from The Onion; that this couldn't be true. Luckily, the response from people all over (that I'm seeing) is one of absolute disgust at the school for making those boys out to be the wrong ones. They will hear from us, big time. This crap is going to stop. Wearing an American flag shirt in a U.S. school should never be an issue. The ones who actually have a problem with it are the ones who need to be ignored.

I swear, if I told anyone this, they wouldn't believe me...

[Goblinmonger]

120. Oh come on. Just look at some of the shit on this thread alone.

And this is a progressive site. "Suck it up." All the jingoistic bullshit about flags and patriotism being spewed on this thread is only the tip of the iceberg for what Mexican students have to deal with in this country. I just had to deal with a kid yesterday who said that all Mexicans are here illegally. To act like it's not even possible that these kids were wearing the flag stuff to make some statement about this being "their" country is just being obtuse.

[StarlightGold]

130. FYI

This is the Mexican-AMERICAN'S country also just as the Irish-AMERICAN'S, German-AMERICAN'S, etc.! Their loyalty is to this country first, period, full stop. No other side to that. They should be glad to join in and be proud of the U.S. The fact that this isn't obvious is surreal. Call it whatever you want, but anyone trying to make a bad thing out of showing respect and pride for the country they're living in and benefiting from should be ignored. Those students who complained should be so ashamed of themselves, but probably don't think they've done anything wrong. It's up to us to let them know that they ARE wrong. I hope those who were asked to remove their "oh-so-offensive" American flag shirts go after the school administration, big time.

[WolverineDG]

68. What if the kids wearing the Stars & Stripes shirts had been Mexican?

Is that "culturally insensitive?"

dg

[leftynyc]

85. What crap

What is wrong with showing Americam pride - on 5/5 or any other day? Since when is there a right not to be offended? WEaring a stars and stripes t-shirt would lead to violence and it's the American kids that need to watch out? No, sorry, that's bullshit.

[Goblinmonger]

137. Um, the kids celebrating May 5th

are Americans, too. This is exactly what I'm talking about.

[leftynyc]

149. What's your point?

That the wearing of an American flag shirt deserves to be met with violence? The Mexican-Americans were insulted? So freeking what? You have not right not to be offended and certainly no right to answer offense with violence.

[Goblinmonger]

151. My point is this:

You said "WEaring a stars and stripes t-shirt would lead to violence and it's the American kids that need to watch out?"

That would indicate that the other kids aren't American. My response just indicates that they indeed ARE American. Perhaps you meant "white" and didn't want to write that, I don't know. But you were wrong in making an American/Not-American distinction. That's the whole point I was trying to make.

And to the "you have no right not to be offended" is good and well when discussion adults, but this is a high school and the school has obligations to those in their care. If they are being insulted and the administration felt it was racist, then they had the right to control it. If they felt it was going to be a disruption to the educational process, then the SCOTUS supports them in their decision. Nowhere in the original articles did it say anything about violence. That seems to be a meme that gained life somehow and, IMHO, stems from some pretty racist assumptions about "Mexicans" but I may be wrong.

[leftynyc]

154. I read somewhere

probably here that the principal was worried about violence and that's why he sent the kids home (why else would he?). Elsewhere I used Amercian vs Mexican American to distinguish between the kids - that's all that I was trying to do here and it never ocurred to me to call them white (aren't Hispanics white?).

However, I'm curious about something else today - we've been talking about this case for a few days, many (like me) feel people have no right not be offended and just have to suck it up - others feel that being needlessly provocative shouldn't be allowed. I wonder how these people feel about the fact that a mosque is being built at Ground Zero. These are going to be many, many people who find that provocative. Do you think they have a point?

[Goblinmonger]

155. The main thing that frustrates me is that people are filtering

this through their own lens. As adults. These kids are not adults. They are in school. If I saw these guys doing this at a street dance for May 5th or something, then I would think they are just dicks.

In this instance, the school has a responsibility to help out the kids in their control. This was intimidation/bullying plain and simple and society wants schools to take care of that.

As to the Mosque, same thing as above. We are all adults. Suck it up. Muslims as a whole are not responsible for the World Trade Center.

[leftynyc]

156. I'm not as sure about the

motivation of these kids as you seem to be. The Mexican American kids were showing pride in the country they feel connected to, why couldn't it be as simple as so were the American kids?

[what is wrong here]

152. are you kidding me?

Hold on. These students have stated that they were patriotic type shirts quite often. All I seem to hear is that we all need to practice tolerance. That is actually a fantastic idea. However, does this tolerance only extend to persons who are not Caucasian? Cinco de Mayo is a supposed holiday that is not even celebrated nationally in Mexico, only by 1 state in that nation.

Let's raise the bar a little. It was a Hispanic vice principal who spoke with the young men about their clothing. Maybe he is the true intolerant person here. He is supposed to be a role model, and he sends students home for this?

It is very sad as to how things are going in this world. That you can not wear something, or say something because you may offend someone? We all need thicker skins. Anyone recall the old National lampoon magazine? I am talking about the 1970 era time frame. The "nothing is sacred" issues. They would blast anyone and everybody. Very funny, and who was hurt by it?

This is crazy. Hispanic students feel disrespected cause this is their day? Give me a break. It is so common in the Chicago area to see cars driving down the street on the 4th of July adorned with Mexican flags. There have even been reports of US flags being ripped apart and knocked down in primarily Hispanic neighborhoods. Who os practicing tolerance here?

Apparently the only group who has to be tolerant at all times are Caucasians.

[GaYellowDawg]

17. Why is it so much more objectionable...

... to wave a Mexican flag on Cinco de Mayo than it is to wave an Irish flag on St. Patrick's Day? After all, Ireland is a foreign nation. What's the difference here? Oh yeah. Race.

[KittyWampus]

22. In some cities wearing certain colors on St. Patrick's Day in certain bars = not recommended.

Humans all too often cling to their tribal mentality and love to nurse their bitterness.

[PavePusher]

27. No-one was complaining about "waving Mexican flags".

But hey, why let facts get in the way of playing the "Ra-a-a-a-a-cism!" card...

[GaYellowDawg]

45. Well, no shit, Sherlock. It was a general observation.

But if you want an observation specific to that situation, the kids who wore US flag apparel during the holiday did it out of spite - to take a jab at the Mexican kids. No one wears US flag apparel to take a jab at the Irish on St. Patrick's Day. The reason? Racism - or as you so cutely put it - "Ra-a-a-a-a-cism!"

But hey - why let facts get in the way of playing the "deni-i-i-i-i-al!" card...

[leftynyc]

99. Do you really think the Irish

would have a problem with anyone wearing an American flag on St. Paddy's Day? Would that be a signal of racism? Would it provoke violence from the Irish? My problem is with the kids that would allow an article of clothing representing the country they live in provoke them to violence. That's where the problem is.

[MellowDem]

29. Who said it was?

In this case it was more obectionable to wave an American flag.

[GaYellowDawg]

47. You missed the point.

The objectionable part wasn't the wearing of the flag - it was the reason behind wearing the flag. The kids who did so did it to take a shot at the Mexican kids. They were using the flag to be assholes, and intended to hide behind it.

[MellowDem]

57. It's still an overreaction...

Even if they were wearing it to be assholes, who cares? Lots of kids wore stuff in high school to be provacative, different, and just assholish.

[roody]

52. My aunt was sent home from high school in New York

for wearing orange on St. Pats day. No new story here.

[leftynyc]

98. You have it wrong

Apparently you can wave a Mexican flag whenever you like. It's the American flag that apparently provokes violence (and therefore it's the Americans that need to have more sensitivity in the backwards, moronic thinking I'm seeing here).

[piedmont]

2. Displaying the American flag should never be forbidden in any American school.

It's really pretty depressing that it even has to be said.

[aquart]

10. "The flag should never be used as wearing apparel."

Section 8d US Flag Rules and Regulations

<http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagetiq.html>

Disrespectful little twerps should have been sent home to change no matter what day it was.

[Toucano]

13. Sounds like selective enforcement.

I can never support selective enforcement.

[MidwestRick]

28. The flag wasn't worn as apparel...

it was worn on apparel. The image I saw was an Old Navy shirt with the flag on it. Similar to how our troops wear flags on their uniform. Are you saying they are wrong to do that?

-MR

[Obamanaut]

74. The gist of this entry in the flag code is that one should not take

a flag and fashion a garment from it. There is no prohibition re attaching a flag to a garment (look at military and boy scout uniforms, windows in cars, etc. There is also no prohibition re using fabric that kinda sorta looks flag-y to make a garment - look at various hats, shirts, etc.

And then there is this, which has also been posted elsewhere:

“Thus, the Flag Code does not prescribe any penalties for non-compliance nor does it include enforcement provisions; rather the Code functions simply as a guide to be voluntarily followed by civilians and civilian groups…”

More at link http://www.senate.gov/reference/resources/pdf/RL30243.p...

[moriah]

148. There is a specific exemption for flag lapel pins and flag patches:

"No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations. The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing. Therefore, the lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart." Section 8 of the Flag Code.

Also, the Code shows what the definition of the Flag is in it (gotta love laws for all of that self-referential stuff):

"The words "flag, standard, colors, or ensign", as used herein, shall include any flag, standard, colors, ensign, or any picture or representation of either, or of any part or parts of either, made of any substance or represented on any substance, of any size evidently purporting to be either of said flag, standard, colors, or ensign of the United States of America or a picture or a representation of either, upon which shall be shown the colors, the stars and the stripes, in any number of either thereof, or of any part or parts of either, by which the average person seeing the same without deliberation may believe the same to represent the flag, colors, standard, or ensign of the United States of America." Section 3 of the Flag Code

Basically, if you can look at it and recognize it as a representation of the Flag of the United States, it is covered under the Flag Code.

You're right, it's a code that should be voluntarily followed and is not legally enforced. The fact it is not followed out of respect pisses me off greatly. It devalues the flag to tack it everywhere and splash it on everything, to use it to sell burgers, to use it as a bikini or speedos or ties, to see the flag lapel pin used as a tie-tack... The Flag is supposed to be special. In the name of "patriotism" we have contributed to devaluing the image of the Flag and the power and impact it should have.

The school? Totally idiotic -- if they allow the t-shirts on any other day, they should have allowed it on May 5th.

Wearing the t-shirts themselves? Disrespect to the Flag, but done in ignorance most of the time. It pisses me off, but it's obviously not going to change any time soon -- too many people are making money selling magnetic things for your car, and t-shirts, and bikinis and speedos and all the other idiocy that people buy.

[NeedleCast]

95. Someone should notify the military

As they have flags sewn onto the right arm patch of many uniforms now...

[Xenotime]

113. Agreed. Their decisions support racial undertones which should not be tolerated.

[Goblinmonger]

32. You really can't see the possibility that the US flag

was being used as intimidation and a tool of bullying? (granted, nothing new)

[MidwestRick]

37. Intimidation...

by the minority at the school? It sounded from the article that this was a mainly hispanic population in this school. With that said, it was 5 boys, not the entire white race at the school.

-MR

[Goblinmonger]

46. Yes, abosolutely, there clearly is not such thing

as white privilege in our society.

[MidwestRick]

54. Soooo...

you'd have no problem if the school banned Mexican or any other nations flag from being worn on an American holiday?

-MR

[Goblinmonger]

70. How is that even remotely consistant with my position.

Whites have the power in this country. Don't care if it is at a majority white school or not. Are being deliberately obtuse?

[MidwestRick]

81. Not at all...

but you seem to be rather thin skinned on the issue. Neither of us have all of the facts, but you seems to assume that the reason the kids wore the shirts were to intimiate the majority of the students at their school.

-MR

[Goblinmonger]

84. Not thin skinned at all.

Just amazed at the lack of cultural tact on this thread. And you are assuming that they are just saintly lads who show their patriotism daily. Which one do you think is more likely?

[MidwestRick]

103. I don't know the kids...

(do you?). It's not the kids I have the issue with anyway. It's the school for banning (for the day) the wearing of clothing with a representation of the American flag without any type of previous warning. Had the school notified students and families not to do this on May 5th, then I would agree the kids disobeyed the school administrators. Since now warning was issued, this was a knee jerk response by the school.

-MR

[Skip Intro]

132. Amen! nt

[sandnsea]

5. Next they'll defend those orange parades

Honestly I don't understand the way some people's brains work. This is hateful, bullying behavior by a bunch of narrow-minded brats trying to use our flag the way bigots use the rebel flag. Whether it's held up by the constitution or not, the school was right to send the kids home and avoid conflict.

[Toucano]

12. I seldom disagree with you.

Today, however, I do.

Do you also send home the girl in the mini-skirt because someone might be provoked to molest her?

On seis de mayo, does the kid with the Mexican flag get sent home to avoid conflict?

Students need to learn how to ignore and tolerate the stupid among us because they will always be with us.

[jtuck004]

6. Perhaps they could have assigned the boys and a few other

students a paper "Why Mexico and the United States are Important to One Another" or "Why We Celebrate Other Cultures in a Country Whose Success Depends On So Many". Then it becomes education, not, well, whatever it was.

I disagree with having a student sent home for wearing an American Flag on any day, (or burning one, for that matter) but they were acting out the behaviors they see in the world around them. The school could have at least tried to make this a teachable moment instead of resorting to something they HAD to know would get them on FOX.

[KittyWampus]

24. Very wise post. When schools do activities like this it should include means of resolving

or ameliorating the almost inevitable conflicts.

[Goblinmonger]

34. And when the kid tells you to fuck off?

Write a paper? Really? As a high school English teacher, I would like to thank you for making writing a form of punishment. Helps us out a lot.

[jtuck004]

63. When they tell you to fuck off they go home, someone can have a discussion

with them about several issues. And then they go home for behavior, not for wearing the flag of their country.

And who said anything about punishment, except, as you say, an English teacher? There's some irony for you. ;)

[Goblinmonger]

80. You may not have identified it as "punishment"

but you were going to have just those kids that wore the flag write the essay. They will see it as punishment. It is extra work that doesn't do anything for their academic classes that they are required to do because of their actions.

[jtuck004]

111. Actually I said that they "and" some other students should be involved.

I do apologize, 'cause I never had even a thought of it as "punishment", but I can certainly see where the kids might get that idea. But I would do my best to supplant some other exercise assigned by the curriculum gods. There is a little flexibility, no? Now it's possible that they might not be receptive to my saying something along the line of "thanks for showing your love for our country, why do you think people are attracted, who made it great and where did they come from, where did your family come from, ...write it up" yada, yada, yada. But I know it doesn't work with everyone.

I was proposing an alternative to sending kids home for free speech. If that isn't punishment with no redeeming academic value I don't know what is.

Now you got me thinking. I hated English, one of the great regrets of my life, spend a lot of time trying to make up for it. Damn important and I have never learned to write well, (though I read and comprehend like a banshee). Never will forget Ms. Black. Caught me trying fudge where to put the period after, or before, a quotation mark. I tried erasing and re-penciling both so I could claim the correct one. ;) Best thing she ever taught me was that you NEVER put anything in writing that you don't want to be held accountable for. 8th grade, '68 or thereabouts. Saw her years later selling jewelry at Sears. I sure hope that was because she liked it, not because she was trying to make a living). But I digress...

Thank you for your work.

[Goblinmonger]

122. I hear ya.

Just hard to get a lot of kids to write as it is. Your Ms Black story is hilarious. It is amazing how clueless students think we are. I also apologize. I was undoubtedly a little snippy due to my reactions to others on here. Cheers.

[jtuck004]

146. I have theory that kids are built to think adults, especially parents,

are clueless, and to disagree often. Otherwise they would live at home forever.

But nothing to apologize for on your part. I can't imagine teaching kids something as important as English when they can't fathom how critical it will be later on. I taught driving for the past year to 15 year olds. They wanted to do that, and still wouldn't pay attention. Sigh...

But thanks.

[RoyGBiv]

7. Do you have a flag?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEx5G-GOS1k

[guitar man]

25. +1

I love that bit!! :thumbsup:

[EFerrari]

9. I saw that report. Looks like four people wanted some attention.

I didn't see this story anywhere, though. There was a march in Phoenix that ended up at the capitol building and it was pretty big. If the teabaggers had this many people, it would be plastered all over the news tonight.

[Egnever]

15. I agree with them

Unless its something the kid wears regularly to school then my first instinct is they are wearing it today to cause trouble.

Now we cant celebrate cinco de mayo? Without people causing shit? This country is going to hell in a hand basket quickly.

[KittyWampus]

26. IMO, it shouldn't be about just -celebrating- Cinco/Mayo. It should be part of a larger educational

program. Which I guess also has to include a basic "respect other's cultural preferences" and "ignore immature attention-seeker"

:)

[MODem75]

150. They did it for the sole purpose to intimidate minorities.

Schools should never allow that.

[SoCalDem]

16. Celebrating a special day is one thing, but turning the whole thing into us v them

is dumb dumb dumb..


Why not just require everyone to dress "normally" at all times, and have assemblies to commemorate the events.

I have never understood the wisdom of segmenting groups and encouraging each group to force their own culture on other groups at specified times of the calendar year

The kids already know the delineations between the various groups, and don't really need more division.

[Goblinmonger]

36. So no green on St. Patrick's day?

Sounds like a shitty policy.

[woo me with science]

48. Do you still get pinched if you DON'T wear green?

I remember that! Ouch! O8)

[Iggo]

71. Pinche St Patrick's Day!!!!

[lonestarnot]

41. Forcing, I prefer to think of it as 'exposure' to other cultures. This

is just someone's side of a story and another picture of America that appears to want to create division.

[Javaman]

20. Why does this story smell to me.

I can't quite put my finger on it, but it just doesn't jibe with reality.

[devilgrrl]

23. That makes to of us.

[Javaman]

117. It reads like a right wing spin story, doesn't it? nt

[devilgrrl]

119. It sure does!

eom

[Daninmo]

21. This is wrong

I can't see punishing anyone for being patriotic for the country they are in.

[MellowDem]

33. Anymore, Cinco de Mayo is as much an American holiday...

as it is Mexican. Probably more so actually, considering they don't even really celebrate it down there. It isn't "their" day, as that one Mexican(American) girl put it, and which pretty much sums up the good ol' "us vs them" kind of thinking. Wonder what she's been told at home. Just like St. Patty's day isn't only for the Irish, Oktoberfest only German's holiday, etc. etc. It is a distinctly American holiday through and through. So if someone wears American stuff on that day, it keeps with the general theme.

[Goblinmonger]

38. Perhaps the fact that she sees it as "her" day

is a reflection on her perception of how she fits into this society? A reflection of how she feels she is treated by those around her? Supported, in my opinion, by a good deal of the posts on this thread.

[MellowDem]

64. It is a reflection of recent immigrants everywhere....

especially those in majority-minority circumstances. Give it a couple more generations and the ol' home country, motherland, fatherland schtick goes away, or at least isn't taken so damn seriously. That's already the case for a lot of Mexicans.

[fishwax]

153. .

:thumbsup:

[a la izquierda]

136. It's a Mexican holiday...

in, like, two places. Regional.

It's been celebrated in CA since 1863.

[Hippo_Tron]

157. My friend and I were joking about that on Cinco De Mayo

We were out buying tequila and margarita mix and he said "you know, they don't even really celebrate this day in Mexico" and I said "yea I know, but we're white Americans so of course we celebrate it because we think it's exotic or something like that."

[Nye Bevan]

42. It didn't even register with me yesterday that it was Cinco de Mayo

And if my son had just happened to wear his American Flag T-shirt yesterday I would have been FUCKING ROYALLY PISSED if his school had called me and told me to bring in a change of clothes for him just in case Mexicans were offended.

I don't care if it's Cinco de Mayo or St. Patrick's Day or Columbus Day or Chinese New Year. In the US kids should be allowed to wear American Flag T-shirts to school.

[slackmaster]

51. It was just a regular work day for me

After work a friend called and asked if I could drive him out for a cocktail. He had bourbon. I had gin.

[Cid_B]

147. That's what I was thinking about...

If someone from the local school were to call me at my US military base and tell me that... Wow...

You can bet that I'm coming down there and it isn't with a change of clothes.

[seabeyond]

53. ok, i didnt read the article, but.... so what? i would tell kids (not that i would have to)

to respect the celebration for those people that are honroing this day. actually both kids told me it was yesterday adn youngest told me the history of it. he wished me a happy Cinco de Mayo day.

[Nye Bevan]

56. So does "respect the celebration" mean not wearing an American Flag?

How about wearing red, white and blue? Or should everyone wear some green to be on the safe side?

And on which other days should kids be banned from wearing American Flag clothing?

[seabeyond]

58. if a parent cannot even take the time today, to teach their children simple respect

then unfortunately it is one of the many things that is left to the school.

if my kids came to me and said.... today is Cinco de Mayo day so i am going ot wear red white and blue, u.s. flags i would ask why? what is the intent? why would you have the need to challenge, battle, over a damn flag. what does that make you?

it would be my childs lesson to learn.

[Nye Bevan]

61. And if you didn't even realize it was Cinco de Mayo

and your kid just happened to wear red, white and blue that day, and your kid's school called you at work to tell you to bring in a change of clothes because it was a Mexican holiday, you would be just fine with that?

[seabeyond]

78. sure. it would be an oops, thank you.... and get on with things

but, dare i suggest, that any kids today wearing a flag (which is the issue) did it purposely making a statement. and after i brought a change of close, i would then ask the child wtf he was thinking and why. then discuss. hoping to teach child simple respect

[Nye Bevan]

87. And the same deal for St. Patrick's Day? And Columbus Day?

Why should the Mexicans get special treatment compared to the Irish and the Italians?

And I guess the school itself should really not fly the US Flag on any of these days. We don't want to risk detracting from any special day.

[seabeyond]

94. see, once again you went beyond in your argument to stupid. and waste of time. nt

[Nye Bevan]

101. You should not advocate a policy without following it through to the logical conclusion

So you are proposing that schoolchildren be banned from wearing American Flags or red, white and blue clothing on Cinco de Mayo, because that's a Mexican holiday. Let's say this ban is implemented. What do you then say to the Irish kids who want to do the same thing for St. Patrick's Day?

[seabeyond]

104. that is not what you are doing. nt

[Nye Bevan]

112. Yes, defending the indefensible does get tricky after a while.

Easier to say "you're stupid nt" and walk away from the watercooler.

[surrealAmerican]

59. It's behavior like this that leads schools to require uniforms.

If the students were using their clothing to intimidate one another, I can see why they did this, but there ought to have been a better way to handle the situation.

[MidwestRick]

65. That's a big "if"

n/t

-MR

[Nye Bevan]

67. A better way to handle the situation

would have been to simply ignore the fact that 5 kids out of the entire student body happened to be wearing American flags.

[Goblinmonger]

75. There is a lot we don't know

I could give you a myriad of circumstances that would make those "5 kids" a problem situation. Neither one of us knows the reality. Why are so many people here hopping on a "the schools wrong" and "yea flag waving" bandwagon?

[Nye Bevan]

91. I assume if there were any mitigating circumstances

the school would have raised them by now, rather than continuing to look ridiculous.

[Goblinmonger]

93. Because you have read it all, right?

The entire amount of knowledge regarding this is at your disposal? Right.

[WolverineDG]

69. Taking a kid's flag as they're waiting to go home?

Um, hello school administrator, don't you think that's a bit stupid? After all, she carried it around all day already. :eyes:

(I think you'd be more concerned about the "low-cut" shirt)

dg

[TwilightGardener]

106. There's some similar racial tension in my kids' school. I think it's proper

for the school to prevent the kids from provoking each other with clothing or other means of expression--as long as it's done with an even hand and with the intent to promote a safe and peaceful learning environment for all the students.

[KansasVoter]

107. Would they stop the Mexican flag on the 4th of July (assuming school was in session)? I doubt it!!

This is PC to the extreme!!

[liberal_at_heart]

108. I think that some conservatives do use the American flag in a hostile way

It's the intent that can be offensive. Some conservatives love to talk about God and America and wave the American flag. They do it out of a feeling of superiority to others. They use it against liberals all the time. Calling us un-American all the while waving the American flag and praying to their God. It's sad that the American flag has become a weapon. National pride is one thing. We see national pride on display at the Olympics and it is great, but it can be taken too far. What is it Christians say about the seven deadly sins? That pride is a sin and that after pride comes the fall or something like that. In a society that honors cultural diversity we should be able to fly flags from all over the world. Up here in the Northwest you see a lot of Canadian flags flying right alongside American flags and I think it is great. We need to see both the American flag and the Mexican flag flying alongside one another.

[southernyankeebelle]

109. This is down right stupid. If a kid can't be proud to have flag pin than no flags for anyone. Be

equal. I don't agree with people wearing apparel of anyone's flag. It is in poor taste and disrespectful in the first place. But if you allow one group than the others should wear theirs to. Remember we are all americans first.

[liberal_at_heart]

115. I did forget about Cinco de Mayo but I just remembered I have some homemade tamales in the fridge

My husband just came back from Texas with some homemade tamales. I know what I'm having for lunch today. It's hard to find good Mexican food in the Northwest. We did find a good tamale recipe on the internet though.

[Goblinmonger]

123. Can you shoot me that recipe?

Learning to make tamale is one of my goals for the summer.

[liberal_at_heart]

125. Sure

[EFerrari]

126. LOL. This thread made me hungry, too!

I'm making rice and beans today, for sure. :)

[aikoaiko]

116. If those students really wanted to irk the Mexican, Mexican American students, they should have worn

...this.

[proteus_lives]

118. And expect kids to know history?

Now, that's asking for the moon! ;-)

[Nikki Stone1]

124. I used to wear orange on St. Patrick's day and no one ever sent me home from school.

:evilgrin:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

127. Those Kids Will Grow Up To Be Teabaggers

But they have a right to be idiots.

[Codeine]

134. They'll only grow up to be teabaggers

because of what just happened. Otherwise they were just being teens, which - by definition - means being obnoxious.

[Regret My New Name]

128. Seems like a poor move. The school played right into their hands.

This is most likely what they were hoping to have happen. Now you will here them as if people who wear non-US flags on the 4th of July would be sent home (if they had school on that day :P )

[Nikki Stone1]

129. Yes they did.

The school badly overreacted here. But what else is new? The problem is that they have now powered up a group with a grievance.

[Skip Intro]

131. Un-effing-believable! This really pisses me off. I hope they sue.

Can't believe some here are defending this outrage.

Where's the ACLU?!

[Goblinmonger]

138. Students don't have the same 1st Amendment right

that adults do. Schools have the right to limit free speech when they feel it will be a disruption to the school day/educational process. They felt so here. I would imagine that if they decided to control this instance, it wasn't just out of the blue. My guess is we will find out when more comes to light about this case. I, frankly, can't believe that so many people on here are willing to jump on the "shut the fuck up, you Mexicans" bandwagon.

[Downtown Hound]

139. Dumb decision and an infringement on that student's free speech. n/t

[truedelphi]

140. This is the other side of the immigration (open borders) story

The Liberal side paints every aspect of having open borders as good.

But is it? Until you personally watch how one occupation after another becomes the domain of foreign born workers, you might not get it.

I have had friends who were decent landscape people. They had to do everything by the book. If they hired someone, they had to pay at least minumum wage. But meanwhile, their latino competition was able to trade a cot in their garage for a worker. (Usually this is some relative.) Guess which person's landscape business thrived?

Meanwhile the "good jobs", often computer related, that supposedly are the only ones that we white people want, are often offered to foreigners here with H 1 visas.

The Federal government has had no sensible policy to enforce any of the rules. Like a recent C span calleer said, the Democrats do not want to upset the apple cart, as they count on the latino vote. And the Republicans want to have cheap labor.

For years I have had arguments with a close friend, who was born in Brazil, over the concept that open borders in the end punish everyone.

Recently, after celebrating her fiftieth b-day, she called me up and started complaining that she and some other friends are finding it hard to find work, since so many younger latinas are here. Maybe I was right about some of my my open border notions, she stated.

I almost died from shock! But what I was saying was no different that what Examiner columnist Rob Morse found out way back in 1993 when he polled people along I 5, California's central valley. Morse claimed that 65 to 75% of the people he talked to were anti- open borders. And these were people whose last names were Nyugen, Lum, Fernandez, Rodriguez, Reyes, etc. (He excluded all Caucasians from his poll.)

[kelly1mm]

141. Morgan Hill School District issued a press release - it is on thier web page

it reads:

"MHUSD Official Press Release Regarding May 5th Activities Top of Page
The Morgan Hill Unified School District does not prohibit nor do we discourage wearing patriotic clothing. The incident on May 5 at Live Oak High School is extremely unfortunate. While campus safety is our primary concern and administrators made decisions yesterday in an attempt to ensure campus safety, students should not, and will not, be disciplined for wearing patriotic clothing. This matter is under investigation and appropriate action will be taken."


Interesting choice of words.

[amandabeech]

143. Laura Ponce is wrong. She can wear Mexican flag clothing or jewelry any day of the week.

It is her First Amendment right.

Someone needs to get the government teachers and the school lawyers to do a teach-in here.

[fascisthunter]

144. seriously... only xenophobes would get pissed at this

They should have let those kids wear their American flags for whatever their intent was...

[Goblinmonger]

145. Here's what one of my crazy ass teabag friends posted on Facebook

about this incident:

"Americans should apologize the article about kids being forced to remove t-shirts with the flag on them, and bandannas with the flag on it. Really? We should apologize, Us, Americans, people who were born here, or immigrated legally, Americans need to apologize to the illegal aliens, for what I ask, who the hell cares if your offended, who the hell cares because your not American! If you do not love the country you are in, get the hell out now."

Sound familiar? (Hint: look up above for more of the same.)