Why are we turning our backs on our fellow Greek workers?

[LBJDemocrat]

The Grecophobia on this discussion forum is astounding. We should be rallying to support the Greek people. There are some people on here who are saying, "Greece deserves what it's getting for promising services that it couldn't pay for." Well; why couldn't it pay for it? What segment of society are these services supposed to benefit and what segment is supposed to pay for it? What segment of society is going to suffer most from the austerity and what segment is going to suffer least?

Let me break it down for you closet Teabaggers here on DU: The proper role of a democratic government is to, at the very least, balance out the inequality that results from the capitalist system. It is natural for those at the bottom end of society to receive more from the government than they put in because IT IS BECAUSE OF THEIR SACRIFICES AND THE EXPLOITATION OF THEIR OWN LABOR THAT THOSE ON TOP HAVE MADE IT TO THE TOP.

When a crisis comes, it used to be assumed that the government would step in to cushion the blow for those most adversely affected. What is instead going on is that those who are LEAST in need, those who happen to have caused the crisis, who are rescued, while the social safety net, instead of being there for the poor, is being withdrawn from the poor.

This is backwards, entirely and disgustingly backwards.

28bil Euros are going to Greece bail out the Greek banks. That's about equivalent to 10% of Greece's 2008 GDP.

This is modern capitalism: When a crisis comes, bail out those on top and teach the workers a valuable lesson - that from now on, they'll be expected to work harder for less.

If you continue with your Grecophobia ("Oh, these Mediterranean folks are such lazy bastards. Lounging in the sun all day while I'm working. F--- 'em, f---ing tax cheats and freeloaders"), what will you say to the next country that encounters such a crisis? Will you expect any solidarity from the rest of the world when it's your ass on the line?

[gateley]

1. Rick Sanchez today had a piece on the situation in Greece, and the reporter

'on the ground' was saying that this will especially hurt those who aren't making much money anyway, and now they'll have to pay more taxes, etc., and Sanchez says "well they'll need to be sacrifices." I thought -- don't you GET it? What 'sacrifices' should these people make? Food? These people are having a hard enough time already - no wonder they're scared and angry!

[midnight armadillo]

2. Well, they ARE tax cheats

Greek Wealth Is Everywhere but Tax Forms
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/02/world/europe/02evasion.html
ATHENS — In the wealthy, northern suburbs of this city, where summer temperatures often hit the high 90s, just 324 residents checked the box on their tax returns admitting that they owned pools.

So tax investigators studied satellite photos of the area — a sprawling collection of expensive villas tucked behind tall gates — and came back with a decidedly different number: 16,974 pools.

That kind of wholesale lying about assets, and other eye-popping cases that are surfacing in the news media here, points to the staggering breadth of tax dodging that has long been a way of life here.

Such evasion has played a significant role in Greece’s debt crisis, and as the country struggles to get its financial house in order, it is going after tax cheats as never before.

Various studies, including one by the Federation of Greek Industries last year, have estimated that the government may be losing as much as $30 billion a year to tax evasion — a figure that would have gone a long way to solving its debt problems.

:shrug:

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. Did you notice THIS PART in the article

In the wealthy, northern suburbs of this city,

Oh well...

[midnight armadillo]

6. yeah, and this part too

Whatever the reason, Kostas Bakouris, the president of the Greek arm of the anticorruption organization Transparency International, said that Greeks were constantly facing the lure of petty corruption. “If they go to the mechanic, it is one price without a receipt and quite a bit more with it,” Mr. Bakouris said.

So I guess mechanics own homes in wealthy northern suburbs? Try RTFA.

[girl gone mad]

19. None of this is really apropos to the crisis they are in.

It doesn't matter whether or not tax evasion was prevalent. That's the system they have functioned with for decades. Tax evasion and government spending are not the cause of this crisis. Deficits resulting from a collapse of private capital and exports, along with being handcuffed by a pegged currency, is the issue. Punishing tax evaders now would only exacerbate Greece's financial pain because it would put further pressure on the private sector, just like austerity will keep Greece in a depression.

FDR understood this 80 years ago. We have really devolved as a society since then, with people on a Democratic forum calling for austerity, wage freezes and pension cuts as the answer to a fiscal crisis caused by terrible neo-liberal policies and the structural deficiencies of the poorly designed Eurozone.

[ipaint]

26. +1. The corp media puts out their hit pieces on the greek workers protesting

and like pavlovs dog clueless americans, with their blinders firmly in place, start beating up on the target. Tools.

[elehhhhna]

54. we should stand up for Haitians, as well. Disney pays them 11 cents an hour

to sew their overpriced tee shirts, etc.

[Whisp]

71. can't BELIEVE some of the comments here against the Greek workers..

either willingfully ignorant or planted just to seed the corporate crap here, knowing the weak minded will accept that it's all the little guys fault, all the time. :( grrrrr.

[kelly1mm]

41. But, being that they have a pegged curency that they cannot simply print

more of, what is the realistic choice?

[girl gone mad]

60. Get out of the EMU. Get off of the Euro...

or restructure fiscal policy in the Eurozone. I am a supporter of Modern Monetary Theory, and I believe that this is the right course for Greece. There will be pain involved in any decision they make, but bailouts and austerity simply will not work in the end.

http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=9533

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. Ok, having grown up in a country like that

let me 'xplain something to you. This is how things are done... when it comes to taxes. The people who have the most... do all they can to hide it, or simply not pay them. As to bribes and other shall we say gifts under the table, it happens. And yes doing something on the up and up at times is more expensive than under the table.

Now here is the part that many folks readying this article, including you, are missing. This is called a black economy, and in order to get something signed by the government... it costs money, and not precisely fees.

Now this is not Greece. There are many places around the world like this. The US is in some ways becoming Greece. see the upper crust not paying taxes, or hiding a lot of their assets, and corruption entering all spheres of life.

Now I am not going to blame the victim. I just recognize what I am readying, mostly been there, done that got the T-SHIRT. What I am going to say is that most of their problem come from very wealthy people having very large investment accounts in Zurich, and New York, a few cases London, or maybe the Seychelles...

And of course this leads to the rest of the people, who could benefit from these people paying their fair usage fees, being left behind with the bag.

Some of this is also what Klein calls Disaster Capitalism. For the moment I will leave the term alone, but in summary the ones who are going to pay, are not the ones with accounts in the Seychelles.

[readmoreoften]

5. What are you TALKING ABOUT? The Greek Elite are NOT THE PROTESTORS.

That's like saying that the protestors at the May Day rally are nothing but Goldman Sachs bankers.

[midnight armadillo]

7. Read the OP

"If you continue with your Grecophobia ("Oh, these Mediterranean folks are such lazy bastards. Lounging in the sun all day while I'm working. F--- 'em, f---ing tax cheats and freeloaders") "

if the shoe fits...

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[midnight armadillo]

16. LOL you crack me up

Really, is that the best insults you can come up with?

[William Z. Foster]

29. the wealthy are evading taxes

What gets left out of these smug and arrogant little narratives is that it is the wealthiest 10% who are evading taxes, while it is the working people - already experiencing a dramatic collapse of wages since the investor class has moved into the country and pillaged it - who are being asked to accept all of the hardship.

Let's see - the wealthy evade taxes, the investors go on an orgy of speculation, working class people lose jobs and their wages and standard of living decline, the IMF stands poised in the wings, the chattering class of pundits and consultants and talking heads ramp up their attacks on the working people, on social safety nets, on "socialism," and it is the bankers and investors - the very people who caused the crisis - who want a bail out - or else!!! - and the working people are being blamed and attacked and told they must face more austerity???

Haven't we seen this movie a few times now?

[Enthusiast]

43. +1 nt

[elehhhhna]

55. hell, wzf, we WROTE that movie.

[Greyhound]

78. Penny-ante bullshit distractions. You and I both know where the money went,

it went to the same place it has always gone. Stolen from the workers pockets and poured into the parasite's trough. Now that the con-game has collapsed, the parasites decree that those same workers bear the cost of the crime.

[AnArmyVeteran]

84. Does supporting Greek people mean I have to 'Go Greek'?

[conspirator]

3. Because some naive people here still believe in the American Dream of getting rich by

driving everyday to their jobs and do what they are told. And someday they might get that promotion.
Others are just too senile and are afraid of change.
Guess what, when you get to the retirement age there may not be any money to pay you if you let rich people bully you out of your rights systematically.

[readmoreoften]

8. Anyone who doesn't support the Greek working class is braindead or a troll.

Or the equivalent of a Republican.

[murdoch]

25. The Greek working class is getting shafted

Guess who the Greek government payed to manipulate the numbers so that they could cook the books? Goldman Sachs

What is happening there is like what happened here. The powers that be messed everything up, and now the working people are getting the shaft.

[Enthusiast]

44. That is right! nt

[Ruby the Liberal]

9. Corruption and tax evasion by Greek oligarchy is legendary

They need to end the corruption AND stop spending beyond their means.

Greek wealth = no taxes.

Direct anger where it belongs. Corruption, not killing bank employees just trying to make a living.

[cherokeeprogressive]

10. Good question. I'm wondering why the Greeks who killed three of their countrypersons

by burning the bank aren't being called terrorists.

[readmoreoften]

13. Because there's a 100,000 of them and they died in the middle of class warfare.

And even their union doesn't blame the protestors and rioters.

[Hannah Bell]

39. i wonder who *did* manage that. athens is concrete city, you know. isn't too easy to get those

things burning.

anonymous "black-clad anarchists" strike again.

[geek tragedy]

12. With whose money are they supposed to maintain these programs?

Why should Germans and French sacrifice and work harder so Greeks can retire early?

Let the Greeks fix their own damn problems.

[readmoreoften]

15. Why should the Greek working class allow French and German bankers to profit

off the scams the Greek Bankers pulled?

And are you insinuating that the Greeks are rioting over "early retirement" issues? Now that's a strawman if I ever heard one!

[geek tragedy]

18. Then we agree--no austerity measures, no bailout loans

to Greece. Greece should be left alone to solve this by itself.

[Hannah Bell]

40. the guilty are making money on the "loans"

“There were alternatives,” to the EU-IMF financing package that comes with austerity conditions, she insists. “The European Central Bank was lending to Greek commercial banks at 1 per cent during the crisis, and they were relending to the government at 7 per cent. If we want a Europe that is true to the spirit of Maastricht, the ECB should lend directly to states...”

[DatManFromNawlins]

87. Sometimes you have to face harsh realities....

... and Greece needs to face up to theirs now.

I'd charge a higher interest rate to a government too... a government can just decide not to pay me back and I have no legal recourse. A commercial entity? I can sue for their liquidated assets if nothing else.

[gravity]

58. The German and French bankers are losing money

because Greece doesn't have the means to pay off their loans. Even with the austerity measures, the loans are still expected to be restructured which is a loss to the banks.

[William Z. Foster]

76. that is revealing

That is a very revealing comment. Since it is the workers who generate all wealth in the first place - only right wingers and apologists for the rulers think otherwise - then it is the workers' money that pays for the programs that benefit the workers, isn't it? And where might that money have gone? Who is holding it?

You are apologizing for and defending those who have taken that money from the workers, and who now refuse to give any of it back, and are using their lying propaganda to smear the workers and prejudice public opinion against them. Why would you want to do that?

[hack89]

91. There never was any money

at least not enough to pay for all the services. Why do you think the Government borrowed so much money? The workers asked for more than they were willing to pay for and the government didn't say no - they just rack up enormous debt.

[EFerrari]

14. K&R

[girl gone mad]

17. k & r

I've come to realize there are a lot of closet teabaggers here. Also a lot of people who simply have absolutely no understanding of how monetary unions function or even what monetary theory and monetary policy is all about.

[TheWatcher]

21. The Closet sure has swung wide open these past few days, that is for sure.

The Ignorance on DU being displayed today is simply breathtaking.

It's almost fascinating to watch.

People really THINK this way.

Well, I would hesitate to call it actual THINKING.

[Bluebear]

23. And:

It's "our" side thinking like that.

Yish.

[madrchsod]

31. you noticed too.....i thought i was the only one

[Enthusiast]

46. And fuck Teabaggers everywhere!

Every single one.

[elehhhhna]

57. & a lot of Duers should read "The Shock Doctrine"

[Blue_Tires]

22. ttt

[Odin2005]

24. The pro-bankster propagandists have been spamming the threads with victim-blaming!

To all you servile capitalist suck-ups, STFU!!!

[Kalun D]

28. ++++^^^^^1000

right on

[girl gone mad]

34. seconded.

[William Z. Foster]

37. agreed

As alarming as it is, it may be a good thing. Recent events are forcing people to overtly argue against the working class. The mask has fallen, and that makes it easier for everyone to see where the battle lines are drawn and also makes the arguments of the anti-working class people easier to dismantle.

Amazing how many people now are arguing so overtly and so aggressively for privatization, for regressive taxes, in support of the racist anti-immigrant movement, against Labor, and on and on.

[Enthusiast]

49. Now you can see them

for what they are.

[Enthusiast]

48. +1 nt

[NuttyFluffers]

80. yup, new & improved DU, now with a bigger tent!

and it's not a majority at all here, just the most loud...

[Kalun D]

27. Because

the wholly owned Orwellian corporate TV is telling us they are in the wrong

when it's really the bankers that have caused the problem, the same bankers that are tied to the companies than own all the television

[Overseas]

67. I agree. //nt

[William Z. Foster]

30. k and r

Thank you.

[OHdem10]

32. A reporter from Greece explained that there areseveral groups

of Protestors. The Group responsible for the firebombs
and real violecence are a group of Anarchists.

The Workers are upset and angry because they are having
to bail out the banks so to speak. Higher Taxes and Serious
Cuts in services. They want the Bankers and those responsible
for the crisis taken to court if they(the workers)are going
to have to pay the price.

[madrchsod]

33. are goldman sachs employees getting paid to post on liberal forums

or do they do it for free?

[Hannah Bell]

35. +100. So many posters on this topic could pass for Reagan Republicans.

"None of those cheating Greeks pay taxes!"

"They get 14 months of pay!"

"No one's poor there, they just put it under the table to cheat on their taxes!"

"They need to pay up!"

And the best --

"If they don't like it, they should kick their corrupt leaders out!"

Wow, irony.

[leftstreet]

36. K&R

[SOS]

38. The PR Lie Machine is in overdrive.

"Greeks retire at 50"!
Average age at retirement in Greece is 61.

"Greeks are lazy"!
Greeks work more hours per year than any other OECD country, except South Korea. (2,152)
The hardworking Germans clock in at 1,430.
Greek GDP per hour is the same as Israel and New Zealand.

"Greece is corrupt"!
Transparency International reports Greece at 3.7/5 on corruption scale with political party corruption skewing the number higher.
Who's paying off the politicians and for what?
Greece is not at all unusual. Numbers for other EU+ countries: Luxembourg 3.3, UK 3.3, Italy 3.7, Norway 3.1 Denmark 2.4

"Greeks get two extra months salary"!
10% of Greek workers are in the civil service and received the bonus.
90% receive no bonus.
The total of the bonuses was $1.4 billion Euros, or about six months personal income for John Paulson.
The bonuses are equivalent to 1% of the EU/IMF package.
Bonuses are now cut by 70%.

"Greeks don't pay their taxes"!
How many times have we heard this in the past week?
Yet when it was revealed that Exxon did not pay a penny in federal tax for 2009 not one US television network reported that fact.
The newsworthiness of "tax cheating" apparently depends on who's doing it.

We didn't believe one word of the corporate media propaganda about Iraq.
Why believe them now about Greece?

[William Z. Foster]

42. excellent

Thanks.

[Rex]

47. All the commercials on CNN/FOX etc are for debt and drugs.

But you should believe it when they say they have no agenda. Series.

[Enthusiast]

51. Yeah, series. nt

[Enthusiast]

50. Yup, it's fascist propaganda. nt

[Starry Messenger]

59. Thank you.

:thumbsup:

[Nye Bevan]

62. So you're not saying it's a "lie" that tax evasion is pervasive in Greece.

You're just saying that Enron did it too.

And if the Greeks don't get their act together, their country *will* end up just like Enron.

Thanks for the good analogy.

[SOS]

65. The point was corporate propaganda and their selective reporting.

Shadow economies are prevalent all across Europe, not just Greece.
US corporations cheat like crazy, but the propaganda machine refuses to air a single report on our massive corruption.

It's not even an analogy, it's an illustration of the endless propaganda we are subjected to.

FYI here is a chart of shadow economies in Europe:



The Germans avoid plenty of taxes too.
The Euro total of German tax cheating is far higher than Greece.
Where's the CNN report on that? Or on this...

"The size of the shadow economy varies from region to region. In northern Europe and Scandinavia it represents between 10 and 18 percent of official GDP. In Mediterranean countries such as Portugal and Italy, the sector makes up 20 to 25 percent.

Many former Communist EU countries have shadow sectors in the Mediterranean range. But in Estonia, Latvia, Romania and Bulgaria the estimate clocks in at 36 to 39 percent.

The figures for EU neighbours can be much higher. In Belarus and Moldova, around half of economic activity bypasses the state. In Ukraine, about 57 percent. In Georgia, 68 percent."

On a lighter note, an old joke from Germany:

Why are all the shopkeepers in this country three feet tall?
So they can fit under the table.

[DatManFromNawlins]

68. How about they be responsible about their own issue

Solidarity for solidarity's sake is a fool's game.

[Flaneur]

70. Good thing people didn't say that about New Orleans, eh?

[Overseas]

72. Exactly. Thanks for the facts.

It is has been painful to watch the great success of the right wing takeover of our mass media and national discourse.

[fascisthunter]

77. corporate media doing what it's paid to do... LIE and MISREPRESENT!

[Greyhound]

79. Because "our" parasites are in charge now. n/t

[Nikki Stone1]

45. Don't forget, the Greek government had plenty of help from Goldman Sachs

Wall Street is as much to blame as anyone.

[G_j]

52. thank you.. nt

[JCMach1]

53. OP is correct more right-wing spew on this issue than I have seen on DU in about forever

as a progressive, I support the right of the people for self-determination and the rights of workers...

[FLPanhandle]

56. It's not so much turning our backs on them, but facing the reality of the situation.

After all the protests, yelling, and finger pointing about who's to blame, somehow, someway, the numbers in the Greek budget will have to balance out.

They have two choices:
1) They don't accept the EU bailout and cut spending/raise revenue, or
2) They default and cut spending/raise revenue.

Either way, they can't continue on the path they are on. Revenue HAS to go up and spending HAS to go down. Protesting and killing people doesn't change that fundamental fact.

It's a shame that the people who will suffer are not the ones who let the situation get to this point.

[Nye Bevan]

61. The main problem is that too many Greeks don't pay their taxes

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/02/world/europe/02evasion.html


ATHENS — In the wealthy, northern suburbs of this city, where summer temperatures often hit the high 90s, just 324 residents checked the box on their tax returns admitting that they owned pools.

So tax investigators studied satellite photos of the area — a sprawling collection of expensive villas tucked behind tall gates — and came back with a decidedly different number: 16,974 pools.

That kind of wholesale lying about assets, and other eye-popping cases that are surfacing in the news media here, points to the staggering breadth of tax dodging that has long been a way of life here.

Such evasion has played a significant role in Greece’s debt crisis, and as the country struggles to get its financial house in order, it is going after tax cheats as never before.

Various studies, including one by the Federation of Greek Industries last year, have estimated that the government may be losing as much as $30 billion a year to tax evasion — a figure that would have gone a long way to solving its debt problems.


I can understand how tax-paying Germans are not too happy about bailing out the Greeks.

[marmar]

63. It's the usual suspects attacking Greek workers....

[Whisp]

69. damn rights. I've noticed as well.

fuckers.

this is a time for solidarity not of pointing fingers at the working slob and calling him lazy and corrupt while the big boys run off with the treasure.
fucking assholes STILL don't get it.

[Romulox]

64. Same reason we've turned our backs on our fellow Detroit workers. And Cleveland workers, et al.

:hi:

[Overseas]

66. K&R. //nt

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

73. Poor people, and workers, aren't supposed to fight back against the establishment.

They're supposed to trust the politicians and they corporations that pay the politicians to be nice and generous.

[LBJDemocrat]

90. Divide and conquer

Turning white against black, European against American, Greek against German. They've been doing it for centuries, and it works.

[TheKentuckian]

74. Because the corporate taint licking mentality is pervasive

Folks love the Raygun mentality despite all facts.

People are more comfortable with what they have been taught that conflicts with reason and all sense of fairness and whatever bullshit has been drummed into their heads than their lying eyes and that ever present gnawing in their guts.

and

Of course some are just Reich wing trolls and refugees from the Republican party that can't live with the theocratic monster they created for short term electoral gain.

[ShortnFiery]

75. Yes, the authoritarian stench wafts across here once in a while.

I'm with the Greek Workers. :patriot:

[Initech]

81. I am a laborer and I *totally* understand where the Greek workers are coming from.

Fuck if I lived in Greece I'd be marching with them.

[TBF]

82. In solidarity with the workers of Greece, K&R nt

[unkachuck]

83. K&R....I'm also with the Greek Workers 100%....n/t

[Karmadillo]

85. Because our Corporate Masters will get mad at us if we don't turn our backs on our fellow workers.

nt

[MellowDem]

86. Because they're the Greek Tea Party....

but more violent. They have their government, whom they elected, to blame. They protest cutting back and higher taxes, but their government spending has been increasing evermore for years when they couldn't afford it. They only have the government to blame.

It's fine for societies to have social programs that equalize society and provide for everyone, as long as that society can afford them. But if it can't afford it, then it's screwed if it overspends.

And it's very obvious here on DU that no one expects any sort of solidarity for the US when "it's ass is on the line".

I don't know why I should have solidarity with a populace that is still too ignorant to understand that their government is incompetent and spent them into debt and that they simply cannot afford to keep spending like they do.

And they do remind me of the Teabaggers in many ways. They don't live in reality. The teabaggers always want tax cuts, lower taxes, but they also want their medicare and medicaid. And they want to decrease the deficit at the same time. It makes no sense. They're just angry people. Angry, ignorant people.

If Greece does not take the austerity cuts and is not bailed out, the working class Greek person will be much worse off than if they do take the austerity cuts.

It's like the Great Depression. Back then it was "let the free market rule". Well, when you do that, the working class suffers much much more. You have to regulate the market to make sure there isn't a crash. And it will hurt the whole world economy if they default. It's just stupid for Greece to default and make their situation worse than it would be with cutbacks.

[LBJDemocrat]

88. Reprehensible post.

The Greek protestors want the ruling classes to carry a greater share of the burden that comes from this crisis. The nominally socialist PASOK spent the past decade trying to shift the tax burden onto the poor.

It's simple, really: They want a more progressive taxation system, better social benefits.

Where are you getting the idea that they're against taxation in itself? Is this what FOX News has told you? So, because they're angry, they're teabaggers? It's easy for those who are comfortable to malign the poor for being angry.

[MellowDem]

92. Whatever...

If they want a more progressive tax system, that's fine. But their government is pretty incompetent about collecting taxes. There is no way, even if they shift more of the burden onto the rich, that they can afford to have better social benefits at this time. They already have comparatively great social benefits that are bankrupting their country.

[SOS]

89. Billions of Euros were lent by big European banks

Apparently their lack of due diligence is not a factor in this debacle?

Greece may well end up defaulting (screwing the big banks), leaving the EU and bringing back the drachma.
They can then start over. We'll see how it ends this year.

Argentina defaulted in 2002 and discarded the dollar peg.
It was a nightmare financial crisis, but by defaulting and dumping the dollar, Argentina was able to recover very nicely.

Surely the Greeks are studying the Argentine example quite closely.

Paying back multinational banks, keeping the Euro and enduring an impossible austerity program is not the only option for Greece.

By 2003 Argentina was free of the dollar.
By 2006, the terrific economic turnaround enabled Argentina to pay off the IMF in full.
The result?
Big wage increases for the workforce, a huge trade surplus and a clean debt slate.

[MellowDem]

93. Well, these are different times...

and a different country. 2006 was before the recession. I think the banks were at fault in terms of feeding Greece's debt, but Greece asked for it, and knew about it to the point of hiding it. They are at the top of the blame chart. No one forced them to take the money and hide their debt.

If Greece wants to default, they can and they may be ok, becaue the world economy will still be humming in general and wouldn't cause a worldwide economic collapse like the US's Great Depression did, mainly because it was the economic superpower. But they may not, at all. It's quite a gamble to say the least, and it's hard to say which would be "better".