Some folks are completely invested in the collapse of the economy

[nadinbrzezinski]

Look, on the way down I was proof positive we were heading for another great depression. Why? THE ECONOMIC INDICATORS pointed to that. And if Bush had been Presnit six more months, even a year, well yes we'd been there. Hoover comes to mind.

These days the Economy is coming out of the hole. The RW is going out of its way to tell us why this is bad... (Jobless rate went up since MORE people are looking for jobs that gave up previously) and we have four months straight of positive job growth.

Yet, predictably some people are invested in the collapse of the economy. And this is NOT NEWS.

And yes, I am still paying attention to them econ indicators for the pesky U Recession (which again some are invested in) and so-far I have not seen signs of it. You will have it for sure in places like five states in the Gulf Coast, but that is another story.

But here is a hint, to those invested in the failure and collapse of the system. You really don't want it. Those who will be incredibly affected by it, like in starvation mode, are your fellow Americans. the Super-rich you want to hurt, will not buy a jet this year, that is the crimp on lifestyle...

That is all.

[Oregone]

1. Not me. Save the system at any cost. I love capitalism

I love, love, love it.

[foxfeet]

3. "It puts the capitalist lotion on its skin."

[Oregone]

4. Nice

:)

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. You realize I don't consider the United States

a Capitalist Economy RIGHT?

IT is something else. That said, a complete collapse of the economy would affect YOU much faster than people will a few million dollars, or worst a few billion.

To the latter in particular, it means a few more armed guards, an armored vehicle and perhaps no new yacht this year.

[Oregone]

17. Nonetheless, the means of production are owned privately

[ShortnFiery]

12. Arrgh!

"But do you still hear the lambs Clair-ese?" :evilgrin:

That was an awesome ... creepy flick. :hi:

[Oregone]

14. Its as creepy as the state of the economy and society

Imagine having Stockholm Syndrome for that guy...well...thats how I think of American Capitalism (and almost everyone has it).

American Capitalism is a big creepy mass murderer asking everyone to rub themselves in lotion, to ultimately benefit him, and acquiesce to his every demand, while he lets them rot naked at the bottom of a hole. And the creepy part is the rotting bodies are crying out to save the man.

[ShortnFiery]

23. Excellent Points.

IMO, well reasoned and insightful.

It saddens me that so many people willingly follow those who don't give a damn about them. Hell! Not just follow, but sometimes adore their oppressors.

[cottonseed]

36. says the internet poster fattened up by American capitalism

you love it and you know it. you need it. without american capitalism you would have nothing to comfortably rail against day in and day out

[Oregone]

39. funny

but dumb.

I don't even live in America, despite your attack on the messenger

I could be plenty fattened without having a system distribute the wealth I create to rich, private individuals (which is all capitalism is).

[SocialistLez]

2. You mean Wall Street?

They could care less about how many people are out of work, as long as they are millionaires and billionaires.

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. No, HERE on DU

[Oregone]

49. So is this like a "call-out"?

[ShortnFiery]

5. No, IMO, it's more that our government has outright lied to us about so many issues,

we tend not to believe their spin, whether it be positive or negative.

A significant number of talented government employed Intelligence folks either retired or resigned during Bush's reign of error. The ones that have replaced them are the CONSTANT same BushCo cronies assigned during the dark days of Cheney. They're still there at full strength ... arrogance and ineptness?

I envision the PsyOps Section assigned to M$M Propaganda Section to be nothing more than a bunch of obese and hairy balding men in wife beater t-shirts sitting ... sweating bullets as they are huddled together within bowls of the Pentagon. :wow: :silly: IMO, even at their best, their sophistication and creativity are sadly lacking.

Nope, it's not that we want economic failure, it's just that one most often comes out correct to bank on the opposite spin to that information the M$M tries to spoon feed us at any given time.

Therefore, when the news-model says "Experts say that The Economy's Improving," I'm on edge awaiting for THE BOTTOM TO FALL OUT any day now. ;)

[ipaint]

7. Well I know goldman sachs is betting on the collapse of california. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. Yes, and those derivatives should be

outlawed, that is another discussion though

[Romulox]

8. And a few are deeply invested in the status quo. Is any of this news? nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. You expect a glorious revolution in the United States?

I am not invested in the Status Quo, I just get it, the collapse of the economy will hurt you in ways that you cannot even imagine. Would that lead to a glorious revolution? Perhaps. Could you control those forces once unleashed? Many fools have tried and failed in the past.

I prefer my social change in a controlled manner... and a collapsed economy\ glorious revolution is not the way it is going to happen.

[Romulox]

26. Nope. I'm expecting a whimpering collapse.

I also don't believe that my words on this forum add to any economic karma that might hurt the apparently stillborn recovery. So what is all this about again? Are you asking us to think happy thoughts? Maybe ignore the news for the next couple days?

Maybe I should invest in one of those bracelets with magnets in them? Do you think that would help? :silly:

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. I like to live in reality

and the indicators are not happy thoughts, they are FACTS... like KNOWABLE facts, so are the HELP WANTED all over the place locally.

And if you want to invest in something like an ECON 101 class it might help.

[Romulox]

31. Your little slice of SoCal isn't reality. I invite you to visit us here in Detroit. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. Yeah my little slice is part of a local, regional state and national

economy

So is the rust belt, including Detroit.

We all know Detroit is a city in the midst of a depression... has been in one for the last ten years.

That is an American Tragedy, that does not match the NATIONAL reality.

I care what happens in Detroit, as this is part of a NATION. That does not mean that the rest of the nation looks even close to the rust belt.

Again, these are knowable facts.

[htuttle]

10. It doesn't make a damned bit of difference what I want or what I think

I have absolutely no effect whatsoever on Wall Street, no matter what I say and no matter who I talk to.

I would guess that 99.99% of DUers are in the same boat.

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. Yeah but soem folks ARE invested in that

what effect they have or not, is besides the point.

[htuttle]

18. What the powerless 'want' is beside the point, other than for the sake of argument

Politically and economically speaking, events are now entirely out of the hands of the general populace, as long as we keep playing this game.

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. You intend to stop buying food to eat?

I mean clothes to wear... shoes to use...

Like essentials?

You are playing the game every day when you go buy the food you eat that day. Every red cent you spend goes into the buying, spending, inflation, money supply... et al, statistics.

[Ozymanithrax]

15. The economy is like air. If it crashes we all exhale ourselves to death...

And, Free Market Capitalism is dead as the Great God Pan. We live in a oil civilization, with every commodity based upon a resource manipulated by those who control the spigots.

No, those distant autarchists holding the spigot shut aren't the only manipulators. Demand, the other side of that old Supply and Demand myth, is manipulated by corporations who create fantasy demand to keep liquidity in the system, to keep the money flowing up to the top where it belongs. They bring us the cars the rich drive, the beer the rich drink, the cloths the rich wear, and all we have to do is hock ourselves to the eyeballs.

But if that system crashes, we all go down together. The food on our tables, the money we buy it with, the TV Bread and Circus we keep happy with, will all go down. We have created a huge interdependent structure, that will crush all of us if it falls.

We should not pray for the gift of human misery.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. Exactly

[ShortnFiery]

32. No, the super-rich merely change the locks on their gated communities ...

and take one less vacation to Burmuda.

The rich don't ever suffer ... they just TAKE in our present Crony Capitalism America.

[Ozymanithrax]

40. None of the We I know are members of the super rich...

or even the filthy rich.

I do know some people who are merely well off, and they will be crushed by a collapse of the economy.

[ShortnFiery]

42. Then they need to join us little-people and go after the super-rich before they

leave the country in shambles.

[Ozymanithrax]

50. And do what. What forms of legislation will pass that will go after...

the super rich, filthy rich, etc.

Nd how do you define little people?

Just asking...

[ShortnFiery]

51. Non-millionaires.

And yes, there's plenty we can do, both legally and peacefully. :thumbsup:

[Marr]

20. "Some folks" are hopin' we lose the War on Terra!

"Why don't you talk about the positive things happening in Iraq??"

"Some folks" are rootin' fer a financial collapse!

It's so weird how the same sentiments pop up again and again. I guess the current team, whatever it is, will always prefer we just talk about the positive things.

Cheer up. Hoping doesn't make things any more likely. Neither does Hope©ing, oddly enough.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. Nah I am just pointing out that the two extremes

the Right and the left, are invested in the utter collapse of the economy. I guess both want the glorious revolution that will come out from the ashes.

:rolleye:

[Marr]

24. A few oddballs, certainly.

I suspect most are just describing the scene as they see it. It has zero effect on reality.

[ShortnFiery]

29. There's no "Right vs. Left" struggle only power mad political rulers who use this ruse to pit ...

the two divergent chattering classes against one another while they STEAL peoples of both these political extremes blind.

The late George Carlin was spot-on: We don't have Political Parties, we have OWNERS who call the shots and the Politicians are their lieutenants to play "their roles."

Us, the unwashed masses get to lie to ourselves that we have any choice in our government.

We don't.

[ipaint]

33. Yes I hear "the left" is also rooting for the onset of global warming and the continued flow of oil

into the gulf, too. :crazy:

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. On the economy both agree

for different reasons mind you, same end result though.

[AnArmyVeteran]

25. Invest in Failure = Get Rich... Invest in Success = Lose Everything

To short a company a regular person has to back up his position with collateral, at least a portion of it. An insider at Wall Street using schemes and scams seem to be able to short using other people's money, thereby betting against the success of other people with THEIR money. It's outrageous.

Why can't the laws be changed to force anyone who is involved in trading to have tangible assets/collateral to back up every dime of their trade? That would stop virtually all the corrupt acts that almost destroyed our economy. I can't go to Vegas with illusionary money and play at the high stakes tables. I have to demonstrate I can pay for every dime I gamble with. If we forced the thugs on Wall Street to only trade with 100% secured 'bets' then the entire economic collapse would not have happened. I'm no financial guru but I do know that no one should be allowed to bet with money or assets they do not have.

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. Here is a hint

the economy did not fully collapse... because of the intervention most on both ends hate.

That said, we need to revive the ghost of Glass Steegal, and put it back in place in-toto, for example. As well as a few more regulations. What they do at Wall Street is exactly what they are allowed to do by DC... and you know what BOTH parties play that fucking game. But that is far from the discussion here.

There are a few on DU who PRAY every day for the total collapse of the Economy, you know Weimar Republic, Argentina 1991 type of collapse. As bad as things got... they could have gotten MUCH, MUCH worst.

[ShortnFiery]

30. It's about to get much worse. They haven't capped that oil geyser yet. eom

[Ozymanithrax]

38. People who think such an event is a good thing do not know what they are asking for...

It comes from not understanding the link we all have with the economy. Here in the U.S. we have this incredibly privileged position. During the depression the rich did not commit suicide en mass. Hell, they just hunkered down until the whole thing was over. The ranks of the poor were increased by the former middle class people who lost everything. My grandfather was a prosperous farmer who, between the dust bowl and the depression, lost everything.

Here are DU, the majority of us are comfortably middle class, or so It appears. An economic collapse Will decimate us. No time to agitate here when you are trying to get the ingredients for Depression Stew.

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. We have examples of this all the time

even on this thread. A poster up thread don't want to play the game.

Only way NOT to play it is to be 100% self sufficient... how libertarians think by the way, but that is the only way.

One bauble I buy, or a few apples, I am participating in the game, like it or not. Hell just by posting on DU I am... I mean I got to pay for the puter, directly if I own it, or indirectly if I am using one at a library (taxes)... as well as the ISP.

It boggles the mind... at times

[dionysus]

48. they envision some kind of romantic, violent revolution against the wealthy, i suppose. the reality

would be everyone that isn't rich starving to death while the rich ride it out with little consequence...

[nadinbrzezinski]

52. With one caveat... the very rich will move to another country

and they will go WELCOME.

[AnArmyVeteran]

70. The money the rich have is worthless if not for the poor doting on them constantly...

The money the rich have is worthless if not for the poor doting on them constantly...
Without people doing things for them day and night, most wealthy people would be helpless.

I saw a movie that was B&W and must have been produced in the 1930s or earlier. It was about a wealthy aristocratic English family who go on a voyage. While in their mansion preparing to leave they treat their butler like a piece of furniture. They looked down at him, thinking they were so much better than he was, ordering him around, using demeaning language, and treating him like a slave. They had no regard for how they made him feel, nor did they have any interest in him as a person. He held no more importance to them than a possession.

But during their voyage their ship is caught in a storm and sinks. They become marooned on a deserted island. The wealthy become instantly helpless, unable to do the simplest things. But the butler rises up to be their leader. Though 'just a butler' he proves to be a natural leader and he is the glue that keeps their marooned group from falling apart, and alive. He spent his life surviving and using his wits in unique and clever ways, like most poor people have to do to make it through each day.

The family was eventually rescued and when they returned to their home in England, the aloof, aristocratic family treats the butler exactly as they did before their trip. They act as if nothing happened and have no appreciation for the butler, even though he saved their lives. They are so locked in pretense and the chains that bind so many of the rich, it makes them seem almost pathetic. Their souls seemed empty and purposeless. They had no compassion, no empathy. This film shows how the rich rely so much on others they become helpless, inept shells, with no substance, no heart and no understanding or appreciation of their fellow man.

This film was superb, but I have been unable to find it. I have searched for it on Google using all the key words, but I thought I would start asking people in film forums and other online sites, but so far no luck. Maybe someone here can remember this film.

Anyway, if you happen to know about this old movie I would greatly appreciate knowing its title. I would love to get a copy of it and watch it again. It is one of those films with a story so compelling it should be seen by everyone. Although the film might be a 100 years old its message is still relevant. It could be such a useful tool to teach others about being being self reliant.

[nadinbrzezinski]

71. Two points on this

this is why it is called a movie.

You think that the rich will not be able to find new servants somewhere else? Or worst, you think that a new group of very rich will not rise after a revolution kills the last batch off?

[AnArmyVeteran]

72. You missed the entire intent of my post. What good would wealth do without the poor?

Reread my post and then ponder on what I wrote to at least understand what the meaning of that story is about. It was a fascinating story and I'm sure it was played out millions of times by the super wealthy and their 'lowly' servants.

[nadinbrzezinski]

74. It is a comedy

that happens, but not as often as you may think it does.

Then again I could have written a play based on slavery... or indentured servitude... which is my point.

Now it is also dark comedy, which plays well with a certain group of folks. And yes spoiled brats have some trouble adjusting to "real life" but many of those people are first gen very rich... ponder on that.

[AnArmyVeteran]

75. What comedy? The movie I wrote about isn't a comedy. What movie are you thinking of?

[dionysus]

47. they have some bullshit, romanticized view of a Depression. never mind that they're so damn idiotic

that they think the rich will somehow suffer, when in fact it will by THEMSELVES that end up starving to death.

[William Z. Foster]

80. no, not quite

In Detroit we are living the depression. No romanticized notions going on.

I am tired of the extortion - "stop giving the rich a hard time, and give them all they want, or you will be sorry."

They already took everything, we already are sorry, and now we are saying "no more!!"

[nadinbrzezinski]

86. Ah that explains it

YOU LIVE in an area of the country that FITS the technical definition of a depression.

As I told a fellow DU'er from Detroit, that does not mean the rest of the country is.

We would be if a lot of other things were not done. That said I HATE what is happening and has happened to Detroit, but that has to do with macro economic policies adopted by Neo-liberals of BOTH parties (and heads of industry) since the early 1990s, if not actually since "St. Reagan."

But Detroid has fit the ACTUAL HARD CORE TECHNICAL definition of a depression for ten years at least. And the depopulation of the city is a reflection of that.

And yes, in order for Detroit to bounce back (and at times I don't know if it can or will)... we'd have to pull out of NAFTA lickety split, change the nature of the chummy relationship between corporations and DC (which we need to do), and a few other radical changes... the kind seen oh around 1932 or so...

[William Z. Foster]

90. right

My point was not that the rest of the nation is the same as Detroit, but rather that not all of us are speaking from some romanticized fantasies about depression.

[nadinbrzezinski]

92. Sadly there are things to say about Americans

and this goes back a LONG time in US History. If it is not happening to me... and as long as Americans remain mostly anesthetized by American Idol they will not demand those changes. Me and my Rep's staffer are on a first name basis, almost. Hell, considered sending them Christmas gifts for five seconds... like just flowers for the office, nothing fancy. But most of the population is anesthesized that what happened to Detroit could happen (almost did) to the rest of the country.

Alas that woudl lead to enough pain, generalized pain, where you might see a revolution, and the rest of the stuff I talked about. As is, the talk of armed revolt to resist Obama might lead to something rather ugly, or just plain out Imperial Collapse, which tends to happen fast, and we are heading there... due to other reasons... but most people are not aware of that either. That might lead to an economic collapse.

But for the moment well the very well to do either fled Detroit or drive with quite a bit of protection if they dare go into the city... imagine that on a national scale.

[lonestarnot]

88. Is gotten a word?

[Swede]

37. Some immediately question any good news and trumpet the bad.

Some go so far as to question the motives of those that can see the good and the bad.

[nadinbrzezinski]

41. 'xactly, small minority but indeed

this is the case.

[ShortnFiery]

43. I was against it last time and I will be again: No more Bankster Welfare funds.

If we must go down, so be it. But no, the Banksters can NOT have our Social Security.

[ipaint]

46. And some people question what is being spoon fed to them

by the same folks- the investor class and above, with a dismal track record consisting of 30 years of crushing workers, unions and our social safety net. Perhaps if someone had started seriously questioning the pablum that is served everyday through the corp. media sooner things would be different.

[nadinbrzezinski]

53. You expect American Idol, brand buying

self identity depending to question things?

The Corp media is a very small part of the problem...

As to the Unions, absolutely, what are you going to do about it?

I know what I am doing about it... first things first, LEARN what is the real history of it, and not just the facts Ma'am either.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

44. I'm looking around, and I'm not seeing any sign of recover. I don't think it's happening.

Despite what the people on the news tell us.

Also, I'm looking around and I'm not seeing any sign of any oil spill. I don't think it's happening.

Despite what the people on the news tell us.

[Fumesucker]

54. And some are completely invested in denying that a great many people are hurting a great deal..

And it's due to the fact that a Democrat is POTUS and the Democrats control Congress, if it were Republicans in control the very same people would be singing the saddest song of all.

The pain ain't going away any time soon, if ever, and it's upsetting to some of us to see posters deny the ugly reality.

[nadinbrzezinski]

55. Understanding the economy does not mean you also deny

that people are suffering.

But a Great Depression, failure of the system, collapse, what have you... would make what we have right now look like a walk in the damn park.

I know this is hard to get, but some of us can chew gum and walk at the same time.

As to going away... yes, yes it will... because no collapsed economy stays collapsed for ever, nor does a good economy stays in a boom for evah!

[Fumesucker]

56. Eh.. I wouldn't be so sure..

Long term unemployment as a percentage of total unemployment has been trending up for sixty years, do you really and truly think that's going to change any time soon?

[nadinbrzezinski]

57. Yes... it is called an economic cycle

they will stay higher for a while... but it will in the end change for the much better.

Also notice something interesting... many of us pointed out the economy was going off the rails about six years ago... it was the last two when it truly went off the rails.

Mind you, if nobody had done any keynseian like spending (and they did not do enough) instead of the 17.4% real unemployment rate, we'd be talking of 50-60% real unemployment rate, that is counting all who lost jobs, gave up looking, have left unemployment rolls, et al.

Official rates, instead of 9.9% (It went up by 0.02% since people who previously gave up are now looking) would be close to 30% if not higher.

Also there are a few other things I am looking at, including the number of months of positive job growth, four so far, in a row... as well as three quarters of actual GNP growth.

This is technical, and I am not happy with the indicators, as I wish they were stronger, but they are FAR, FAR better than they were a year ago. When Bush left the country was losing 900,000 jobs a month... now we are in positive job growth and for the firs time above population growth.

I am going to simplify all this gobbledygook gook into something simple to get. If they did nothing, this mess would have millions still losing their jobs. And six out of ten people you know would be out of work. We did not get even close to that point, and I am hoping in the next six months people will realize that indeed we are coming out of this hole.

[Fumesucker]

58. I'm not aware of any sixty year or longer economic cycles..

Perhaps you can educate me on this very long period economic cycle?

[nadinbrzezinski]

60. No, what I am saying is that this is part of the economic cycle

not a sixty year cycle. But six years ago when people starting rising alarms, even me, it was because the econ indicators started to sour. Modern economies usually go through a ten or so cycle.

[Fumesucker]

62. But I was talking about the sixty year rise in long term unemployment..

You seem to think that's going to change soon, I don't agree.

You can see the shorter cycles superimposed on the graph I posted but the obvious trend, bucked only from about 1960 to 1970 or so is for long term unemployment to increase.

I see nothing on the horizon that is likely to change the trend of ever increasing long term unemployment, indeed I think that trend is only going to accelerate.. True, there will be short business cycles superimposed on the trend but that trend is a very long standing one by this point.

[nadinbrzezinski]

63. Sixty? You could make a case for since Reagan

And even that one is hard to make a case for

Also the last part of the graph what is it a projection for?

We are not anywhere close to 30%... so what that graph released last year when we expected it to reach 30% and higher?

I expect the country to have a medium term of higher unemployment, as in the 10% neighborhood, and a lot of what is done at a deep level (which don't give me a warm fuzzy, aka we need card check, we need full Keynes, I could go on) it will continue.

Any ideas how to change the view in DC? But I expect our official rate to drop to the 4-6% neighborhood which is close to what modern economies consider full employment, within two-four years.

What does not give me a warm fuzzy is how the economy has been changed, deeply changed...

See Card Check and the rest of the issues that need addressing.

Could it still go off rails? Easily, right now this is not what I would call firm... but for POLITICAL reasons they will do all they can to avoid that.

[Fumesucker]

65. The graph is of long term unemployment as a percentage of total unemployment..

Not of unemployment per se.

Until NAFTA, CAFTA and other "free trade" agreements are thoroughly renegotiated I don't think there's any real solution for the unemployment problems.

If the economy really starts to cook again energy prices are likely to go through the roof, the only thing holding down energy prices at the moment is weak demand due to the economy. I think this is going to be a continuing phenomenon for quite some time into the future, possibly for more than a few decades.

[nadinbrzezinski]

69. Agreed on NAFTA et al

I am more dramatic than you. The US needs to pull out, and go back to ahem CAPITALISM where things like Living Wages, dissolution of monopolies and a few other things are done.

I mean quick. who was the last president who employed the Sherman Anti Trust Act? (Carter)

that is not a coincidence.

But to your essential question, yes things can change... and you know when they will change? The last time a President adopted the platform from the "radicals" was 1933... the similarities are to a point there, though fortunately or unfortunately, not in the unemployment levels.

[ipaint]

64. Oh for crying out loud.

It's been a thirty year recession for the lower classes. The world does not revolve around the comfortable class and their "cycles". The financial system is set up to self destruct. Every recession the recovery is more and more shallow. I've been through 7 of them. Each one throws the lower classes further down the black hole.
Some of us have been living this nightmare all our lives and it's only gotten worse for the bottom 50% of this country.


Have fun with your "riddle me this" thread, ma'am. I have no interest in the comfortable class's theory of cycles when the bottom almost 60% of this country have been transformed over the last 30 years into wage slaves regardless of the up and own of the economy.

[nadinbrzezinski]

66. I am not saying what you are living is not real

it is... but it has precious little to do with the cycles and all to do with the systemic changes to the economy pushed by BOTH PARTIES.

Let me tell you how this is done.

We lost (insert number here) of good Union and even NON UNION jobs... lets say comfy middle class life style. Those are replaced with entry level jobs, rinse-repeat.

Add to that the H1B visas, and the lack of enforcement (at the employer side) of immigration laws, with a little of NAFTA and other "free Trade" agreements and you got the recipe for what you are living.

By the way, you my dear, are assuming much. We ARE working class. Just because I happen to get it how this works does not mean I am not living it either.

And you know what is damn sad? We were warned, and most people were too damn busy to notice.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

61. Actually I'd say BOTH extremes

just that the extreme on the right has a platform to scream from.

As my BIL and I joke, they give hand shakes to each other under the table.

[KonaKane]

67. Because their egos are now invested in the position.

Regardless of the fact that it puts them in favor of an economic collapse which would be unmittigated disaster for our nation.

It doesn't get whackier than that.

[HughMoran]

68. I agree

& I don't get it. Being reality based shouldn't also mean that reality is ignored when it shows positive movement in the economy.

[William Z. Foster]

73. not logical

You have been warning of a fascist police state.

By the logic you are using here, and especially that of the people you attracted with this thread, you must then be completely invested in the arrival of a fascist police state.

Why did you give so many people an opportunity to beat up on the pro-Labor people like this?

Obviously, you bare not invested in there being a police state. You are invested in the collapse of the trend toward that, the collapse of the power of people who are pushing us that direction. As you see it. I respect that.

Likewise, the anti-corporate people and anti-capitalism people are not invested in the collapse of the economy, they are invested in the collapse of those who have total economic power over us. As we see it. You should respect that.

That would make us potential allies. Why can you not grant the same respect and consideration to the anti-corporate people and anti-capitalism people that you demand for the anti-fascism people such as yourself?

[nadinbrzezinski]

76. if you think a great depression will bring what you think it will bring

be my guest.

That said exactly where am I beating on working people?

I am all for the REPEAL of things like NAFTA, which we could get out of in oh six months. We just have to inform the trade partners (Mexico and Canada) of this little fact.

I am all actually for the return of things like the enforcement of the Sherman Anti Trust...

I am all for the breaking up of monopolies

Oh I forgot the absolute enforcement of the 1986 Immigration law, you know ICE actually FINING EMPLOYERS like they are supposed to.

but I am not for the utter collapse of a system that by definition (like you know the creators of the system) is NOT capitalism, because it will bring forth UNTOLD suffering... the kind of suffering that most of you think will only affect the very rich... well in the real world economic crisis affect the poor and the middle classes first... if the very rich start to get affected, they just move to ANOTHER country. That is the real world.

As to fascism coming... it is already here. again read Benito Mussolini. You are aware that corporations WRITE legislation, RIGHT? What just because we don't have the secret police going from door to door busting them don't mean it ain't.

[William Z. Foster]

77. well, I tried

Yes, I see all of the things you are pointing out and respect your view.

I was asking that you see the parallel and grant that same respect to others.

There are many who think that overthrowing the police state would lead to chaos, and that you are "invested" in that chaos happening. I don't agree with them.

You yourself are making the connection between corporate power and the growing police state, and as you point out fascism is the marriage of corporatism and state power.

Then why should those calling for the overthrow of the rule by the financial power over us, Wall Street (without whom there could be no fascism) be seen as inviting or desiring chaos or collapse, while those calling for the overthrow of the police state are not to be seen in the same light?

How are we to overthrow fascism, or even understand it, when you insist on leaving half of the equation off the table - those with the real power, the economic power?

[nadinbrzezinski]

78. Utter economic collapse will not lead to what you believe it will

Jacobin France comes to mind.

Oh did I mention Stalinist Russia?

What about Weimar Germany?

Argentina perhaps is more to your liking, perhaps Brazil... what about Chile?

I could go on.

This is what UTTER COLLAPSE does. Now that does not mean that things cannot or should change. But history is a guide... and personally I don't want to go through the Mexican Crisis of 1986 either, mostly been there, done that, got the T-SHIRT.

But I am positive changes can occur. They will not until people keep seating up and waiting for the collapse that will bring forth the Glorious Revolution... the glorious revolution can easily be Jacobin France, or Stalinist Russia... or the horrors of Weimar Germany. That is what utter collapse can and does lead to. This is HISTORY.

As they say, those who know history... realize that changes have to happen WELL BEFORE these steps. And speaking of the American people good luck on that by the by. After all we already live in a fascist state run by corporations.

[William Z. Foster]

81. strawman

I am not advocating total economic collapse any more than you are advocating fascism. Did you read what I said?

Would you quit with the mocking and derisive "Glorious Revolution" stuff? Would you stop with the fear mongering about Stalin and whatever? No one is ridiculing your warnings about fascism that way.

The working people are not causing economic collapse. Speaking for the working people and fighting back is not going to cause an ecio9nimic collapse, it is not advocating or hoping for an economic collapse.

You are warning us about fascism. Is that causing fascism? Are you promoting fascism when you do that? Of course not.

[nadinbrzezinski]

82. Read the OP... if you are not advocating utter economic

collapse then this is not directed at you.

It is directed to the few (and loud) who are.

[William Z. Foster]

83. who?

Who is advocating utter economic collapse? It is not at all clear in the OP. The one hint is the remark that "you think the rich will be hurt" which suggests you are not talking about right wingers.

I have not seen any leftists advocating utter economic collapse. Some have predicted it, yes. But predicting and advocating are not the same thing. As I keep pointing out, you warn about fascism. That does not mean that you want it, are invested in it, are advocating it, nor does it mean that you are advocating the collapse of all law and order, does it?

Who is invested in utter economic collapse, where and why and how? Who is advocating or promoting it? How are they doing that?

By the way, just as you say "we already have fascism" (and if by that you mean a police state, I agree with you) some of us are saying that for a significant number of people we already have utter economic collapse with no relief in sight. If you want to say "don't panic because it is getting better with the Dems in power" let me ask you this - would you accept people telling you "oh don't worry about the police state and fascism because it is sure to get better now that the Dems are in power?"

[nadinbrzezinski]

84. Start readying this place more closely

I would be calling an actual member out, and that is against the rules.

And I do not mean a police state, even if we have elements of one. I mean an ECONOMIC SYSTEM. El Duce had another name for it, CORPORATISM... we are there. been there clearly for the last ten years... you could make an argument since mid 1990s

[William Z. Foster]

85. ok

I will watch for it then.

Not sure what your complaint about fascism is, if it is not the police state and it is not the economic domination of all of us by the few.

How is fascism an "economic system?" The only significant things the Nazi changed about the German economy is that they broke the unions and they spent massive amounts of public money with the arms builders. In that, fascism is not different than what we see in any other capitalist country except in degree.

[nadinbrzezinski]

87. The Nazis were but one presentation of Fascism

I grew up in a country that had many elements of Fascism that did not have the police state (secret police) side of it...

And the American form of fascism is closer to the Dictablanda of Mexico than the Nazi state... though the US could go there in a minute flat... we have the technical means to do that.

By the way, FUCK HOOVER! (Echelon and other means)

[William Z. Foster]

89. I know Germany is but one example

But it was similar in Poland, France, Romania, Hungary and Slovakia, as well.

I guess I am not clear, then, what you mean by "fascism."

[nadinbrzezinski]

91. When corporations write the laws

and are protected by the state... combined with some hyper nationalism, religion et al...

Here, the 14 points

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/fasci14chars.html

Dr Lawrence Britt was pretty explicit about it in 2003... as well as other poli sci profs.

[William Z. Foster]

93. familiar with the 14 points, yes

That is something of a grab bag of features found in fascist regimes from the past. Certainly we see all of those here now. Doesn't really tell us what fascism is, though. They all strike me as symptoms.

[nadinbrzezinski]

94. Benito Mussolini gave this definition

"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini ...

I think he should know... since he is the originator of it.

And here is his doctrine on fascism, word deriving from the term Fasces... which goes to a Roman Imperial Symbol

http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/Germany/mussolini.htm

Realize Fascism is also an extreme reaction to liberalism, as seen by Mussolini and his contemporaries.

[William Z. Foster]

95. yeah

I don't see the word as being very useful. "Some bad thing" or "a bunch of bad things that can happen" I guess.

So it is Mussolini-ism, since he coined the word?

The list of 14 features are just that, and nothing more. Effects and symptoms, or something.

The doctrine is a lot of nonsense, similar to Mein Kampf. That doesn't tell us anything either.

None of this tells us what fascism is, or explains why we are using the word - other than to mean "bad things" or something like that.

[nadinbrzezinski]

96. As I said, the simple defition is when Corporations start

controlling the means of the state.

You know who wrote a lot of our recent bills? The interested parties... oh that did not include you or me... but CORPORATIONS.

It is exactly what Mussolini said it was. When the state and the corporations have the same goals and mix their interests. No secret police needed. And the 14 points are not only common to prewar or WW II fascist states, but others on the post war period that were. Franco's Spain, Echeverria's Mexico, Chile, Argentina, Brazil... and these days the US is there. And quite frankly it's adopted the Mexican model... perhaps since I grew up in it, I can recognize it a mile apart. No need for scary cops, or secret police, mostly...

[William Z. Foster]

97. ok

So corporations controlling the state is fascism?

[nadinbrzezinski]

98. Bingo

When their interests become the same that IS fascism.

[William Z. Foster]

99. thanks

That wasn't true in many of the fascist countries in Europe in the 30's, so that caused some confusion.

If their interests are the same, then that makes government an agent for corporations.

That wasn't so much true in Germany, Slovakia, Hungary, Italy, Romania, Spain or Portugal. It was for the most part true in the UK and France then, though.

[nadinbrzezinski]

100. The corporate board rooms

were part and parcel of the Nazi state, for example. One of the thing the US did at the end of the war is that those boards were reorganized in such a way that workers had much more of a say. For example, corporate boards after the war included workers. Ironic, since we gave them, (and their Constitutions as well) the kind of reforms we need today.

[jpak]

79. The doomers are full of it - and were all along

that is all