Say good bye to all this

[Botany]

Chandeleur Islands Mississippi / Louisiana border



Alabama beaches



Gulf Coast Wetlands



Oyster Beds

thanx

[Oceansaway]

1. K&R...n/t

[RedRocco]

2. self delete

I had no idea that image was that big

[Sebastian Doyle]

3. It's unconscionable what corporate greed has done to the Gulf

Kathy Bay Malloy sums it all up here much better than I can.

http://www.mikemalloy.com/2010/05/03/accidental-tourist/

[liberation]

29. It is not just the gulf...

we have literally turn a big chunk of our planet into a shithole in order to comply with a ridiculous system which expects infinite growth in order to get more arbitrary digits in random numbers some people consider the only possible measurement of "worth."


Time to evolve, or the earth will deal with us soon enough.

[Duval]

110. The earth has already begun to fight back. :( n/t

[whereaminow]

64. Takes two to tango

Consumer greed plays just as big a part...

[defendandprotect]

84. Nonsense ... consumers have been calling for electric cars and EARTH awareness for decades...!!

Calling for alternative energy --

Capitalism -- is based on exploitation of nature, natural resources, animal-life --

and even other human beings according to various myths of inferiority.

Capitalism is suicidal --

[whereaminow]

85. In the meantime they keep buying gas cars

The effort is very feeble. The consumer has much more power than they are willing to use. But nobody really wants to rock the boat. Yes capitalism is suicidal - It's the consumers that are committing it. You don't have to be exploited if you don't want to be. But as long as it's considered more convenient than fighting, then not much can be done to resolve the problem. Don't scapegoat others when the problem is the person in the mirror.

[mike_c]

90. agreed, 100 percent....

It's easy to blame BP, the government oversight that was asleep at the wheel, or in Big Oil's pocket, and so on. But the real impetus is consumer demand. Many of the same people complaining about the environmental damage in the Gulf also complain vociferously when gas prices rise at the pump. We simply cannot have it both ways.

[defendandprotect]

92. "Easy to blame BP" . . . !!?? Or maybe you also want to alibi for Halliburton???

How many of the rigs that Halliburton worked on have exploded -- 28 of 32?

Who's been in charge of government oversight of the oil industry except former

oil industry executives?

We need alternative energy and electric cars -- not excuses for those who profit

so outrageously thru control of our natural resources!!

[mike_c]

111. easy for you to be shrill while you contribute to the problem....

Maybe it's just me, but I'm guessing you live in an American home. Hot water on demand. Damned nearly everything but the framing made with some petroleum product. A television or two. An automobile, or three, in the driveway. When was the last time you spent more than an hour walking to conduct your daily errands rather than driving a gasoline powered vehicle? Let's see-- you probably own a lawnmower, or at least benefit from the services of someone who does-- I mean, you might not hit any single one of these indicators that YOU, my friend, drive the consumer demand that fuels the greed that drills the hole in the bottom of the sea that BP made, but I'm betting that the probabilities hit home more frequently than they don't. Got electricity? Got plastics? Got winter heat from sources that didn't grow during your lifetime? Eat food that didn't grow in your neighborhood?

No, I don't want to "alibi Haliburton." Not anymore than I'll give you and myself a pass for being the ultimate consumers that keep the demand high. GOVERMENTS rise and fall on the strength of that demand. Have you ever complained about the price of gasoline at the pump? If you have, ever, just once, your sanctimoneousness is disgusting.

[defendandprotect]

116. Try turning your "shrill" attention to capitalism . . . not consumers who have little say...

We are all used to heat and hot water -- are you saying the only way we can get it is

with oil?

How many Americans called for petroleum to be dumped all over our farmland as "fertilizer"?

And, if you've ever noticed, I'm the one telling DU'ers to put the TVs in the closet!

What would we possibly lose if we all did just that? Nothing!

Did consumers vote for suburbs? Did consumers vote for no public transportation in suburbs?

Eventually, the suburbs are going to have to awaken to peak oil and the reality that they

can't get around unless they cooperate in creating energy - locally. And, unless they create

mass transportation with the appropriate connections we should have had decades ago!

We don't need massive grids controlled by one large monopoly energy company -- we need locally

created energy.

Can you even drive your car without the airconditioning on? Try it, you'll choke on the fumes

from the other cars!

Consumers do not rule our economy -- capitalism does.

And, rather Halliburton created the blowout -- evidently they're pretty good at that --

with a large majority of the wells they've worked on having exploded!!

How many of our supermarkets are offering foods from local sources?

How many times do you go to the farmer's market in your town?

Amazing that you'd even touch the price of oil -- who was creating "shortages" during

the Carter's administration's energy scandals? Who but the oil companies.

And, who but the oil industry -- and ENRON -- were faking shortages during the last go

round which pretty much bankrupted California and pensions???

And, who recently was floating oil around at sea speculating that prices would rise --

No one but the oil industry!!

Halliburton is about destruction -- whether they are cheating our troops or electrocuting them.

Whether they are blowing up most of the wells they work on -- or whether they are trying to

escape murder/rape charges!!





No, I don't want to "alibi Haliburton."

Sure looks like it -- !!

[Flatulo]

137. Ding!

[defendandprotect]

91. There was a very strong attempt made in CA ... See: "Who Killed the Electric Car?" ...

probably at your library for movie rental.

It was a very powerful attempt, undermined by oil/auto alliance and they

crushed thousands of cars in the end -- cars which owners wanted to purchase,

yet they were not permitted to do so.

I'm sure labor is very powerful, but somehow capitalistic violence continues to

keep it disunited -- un-Unionized -- and as we speak, Arne is helping crush the

teachers' union -- one of the largest.

Consumers don't even control their own natural resources -- they are in the hands

of private interests, so certainly no consumer has been spending millions every

day to push our elected officials to "drill, baby, drill!"

Exploitation is accomplished by violence and political violence -- so saying that

someone doesn't have to be "exploited" if they don't want to is inane. Did African-

Americans want to be exploited by Segregation, Inc. for a 100+ years?

Do women want to be exploited under patriarchy?

Do young men really want to give their lives to MIC wars?

"More convenient" than fighting? Did Consumers also requisition "Free Speech Zones" --

or push for arrests of protesters -- even the netting up of people in wheel chairs and

parents with children in strollers?

Capitalism is a ridiculous "King-of-the-Hill" system intended to move the wealth and

natural resources from the many to the few -- and it has done that successfully all over

the world.

Right now America is suffering predatory capitalism --

Unregulated capitalism is merely organized crime.

[SmileyRose]

115. Seriously

Do you really think GM gives one hoot for Big Oil? If America desperately demanded electric cars and the technology was advanced enough at the time to mass market an affordable, dependable electric car that could be supported by our infrastructure within a few years - then you bet your hiney GM would have been "first to market" with that baby. Corporate greed extends to GM as well. If you are the CEO of GM with gazillions in stock options, you bet your ass you'd want to be forever known as the guy who got there first with a fully electric car that could turn a profit with enough mass appeal.

There's a reason they scrapped full electric and went to hybrid instead and it has nothing to do with car companies cowtowing to big oil.

[defendandprotect]

118. Are you kidding? You don't think there's an alliance between oil/auto industries?

:rofl:


America has demanded electric cars -- decades ago -- in fact we had them decades ago!!

See: "Who Killed the Electric Car?" -- probably at your library.

In fact, auto industry has been supplying Europeans with far better cars than we get here.

Probably because consumers are kept so poorly informed by our corporate press.

Also keep in mind that US government subsidized the oil industry when gasoline cars began --

subsidized the infrastructure -- the gas stations on every corner!!

GM crushed thousands of electric cars -- wake up!!



:eyes:

[SmileyRose]

120. Ahem

Seen the movie (love a good conspiracy theory), know the car - personally know someone who had one and was forced to turn it back in. While the car suited him well, it did have it's problems. My friend loved the car but is the first to tell you it was incapable of performing well enough to meet mass demand over the long term. Period. GM's maintenance costs on those cars would have eaten away any profits they could hope to make on it.

The electric grid in this country is subsidized as well. So I am not sure how you come to the conclusion it was all about big oil. I'm sorry but it makes no sense. Do you really think big oil cares if we put the oil directly into the car or into creating electric and car parts?

[defendandprotect]

123. Shall I believe the thousands who wanted the cars and becried their loss . . .

or your one sad story of a disappointed driver? hmmm...

Americans subsidized the advent of the gas-guzzler -- no reason why we shouldn't or

couldn't subsidize the reappearance of the electric car.

And, btw, the cars were on the roads for years -- with no problems.

Let's subsidize local generation of electricity -- local transportation -- local

production of crops.

The electric grid requires electricity to run as do our nuclear plants.

And, obviously, what we subsidize needs to be ever more closely monitored.

Let's simply return to public utilities and nationalize the oil industry.

Any energy effort should be subsidized and PUBLIC service.

Do you really think big oil cares if we put the oil directly into the car or into creating electric and car parts?

Why don't you put that to a voting poll here?

:rofl:

[SmileyRose]

125. When you've met all 1000's of them (or even one or two), give me a jungle

or you can just watch a movie clipped and formed to portray what it's creators wanted and decide that is "truth".

Whatever works for you.

Peace.

[defendandprotect]

129. So . . . thousands of owners are lying, but your friend is telling the truth . . . ??

Quite some ambitious liars who actually were willing to BUY the cars . . .

until the last moments when they were crushed!!

Don't think you'll find "Peace" with the oil industry or any form of capitalism . . .

exploitation of nature and humans -- wars, pollution, Global Warming.

Don't think so--

[SmileyRose]

135. You don't have any idea how 1000's feel or not

all you know is what one guy who made a movie thinks. You have no experience with the actual car or the actual people who drove them. I have no doubt their experiences are all individual and I have no doubt there were more than a few wanting to purchase the car (and my friend did as well). HOWEVER, there are so many different reasons why a car company would demand it's prototype back rather than sell it that have absolutely nothing to do with being in the pocket of big oil. In fact, designing the car in the first place would never have happened if GM were in the pocket of big oil.

You are certainly entitled to your viewpoint but I personally cannot relate in any way to a viewpoint that says if capitalism had left the prototypes out on the road that is good and capitalism that pulled them back in is bad. From my way of thinking that is talking around in circles. I have plenty of problems with capitalism as we know it - at least as far as global corporations are concerned. But I am certainly at peace with my place in it and my own personal quest to leave the best behind on this planet that I can - whatever that might be. If you think I am somehow naive or stupid or disingenuous or whatever, that's fine. All I am saying to you is that my experience with this particular subject gives me a far different viewpoint.

[defendandprotect]

147. Thousands of drivers wanted to BUY the cars . . . that is sufficient testimony ....

and, they finally disbanded the waiting lists for new customers --

obviously not wanting to make clear how many wanted these cars and electric cars.

And how many of these owners have you spoken with? One? How many of these cars

have you drive? None?

Allegedly you watched the movie -- either you haven't seen it or you have a strong

urge to disinform.

This was no "prototype" -- these were thousands of cars on the roads in CA for years.

But it's amazing how confidently you speak for "big oil" and what they do and how they think!

California made laws which mandated a certain percentage of new cars would be electric.

That was later overturned -- by whom we wonder???

Capitalism is universally an evil -- other have been expressing that view since Columbus --

and Americans are now awakening to that reality.

But I am certainly at peace with my place in it and my own personal quest to leave the best behind on this planet that I can - whatever that might be.

How any American watching what is happening in the Gulf compliments of the privatized oil

industry and the mercenary Halliburton could express a view like that is shocking!

Your experience is obviously limited -- but your horizons seem clear -- i.e., to protect

and speak for the oil industry.

[SmileyRose]

149. Alrighty then.

I don't know if you are deliberately twisting my view to fit your own preconceived notions or if you are simply incapable to processing my message. But either way, your entire post above is so far from the truth that you have made it impossible for us to engage in any further discussion of any sort.

I wish you a healthy and happy life.

[defendandprotect]

157. We need a clean environment for a "happy and healthy life" - put me on "ignore"--

PLEASE!!

[Flatulo]

133. The person you are arguing with believes that no planes hit the WTC on 9/11.

Plan accordingly.

[SmileyRose]

136. HE might be arguing - I'm having a conversation.

I don't understand the 101st fighting keyboarders type mentality and am more apt to be entertained by it than frustrated. Those who wish to engage in internet battle are part of what makes the internet (and the DU) fun as well as informative.

[Flatulo]

138. I admire your civility and thank you for it. But some posters are

incredibly resistant to logic, reason and data.

[whereaminow]

122. Answers to your questions:

Did Consumers also requisition "Free Speech Zones" --

or push for arrests of protesters -- even the netting up of people in wheel chairs and

parents with children in strollers?

Yes they did. They voted for the people who imposed these regulations, and not just once. They voted to continue this to this day. Evidently the conveniences they enjoy are too important to turn their backs on the propaganda... They have the power to render it all completely useless.

Do women want to be exploited under patriarchy?

They have the power to end it.. It all depends on what they are willing to sacrifice to get out from under it.

What I'm trying to get through to all of you is that the problem isn't some far off machine telling you what to think. That's simply a poor excuse to blow off responsibility. You, and your family, friends, and neighbors made the choices you made. And me too. We are responsible, nobody else.

[defendandprotect]

126. And we all voted for Cheney's secret energy meetings?

Rather, corporations have control of our government -- and often of the votes/counting!

Coincidentally, the large computers used by MSM which now gives them the power to PREDICT

and CALL elections rather than just reporting actual vote tallies -- and the smaller voting

computers used by the public which are hackable -- began coming in during the mid-late-1960's --

just about the time America was passing the Voting Rights Act!


Courts have also overturned many of the arrests of protesters --

they fail to blame the victims.



Do women want to be exploited under patriarchy?

They have the power to end it.. It all depends on what they are willing to sacrifice to get out from under it.

Well, why don't we gals get together this week and shoot another ERA Amendment thru to Congress?

Upwards of 300 corporations work every day thru The Business Round Table, which includes firms

like Hallmark to fight equality down the line -- right thru to Affirmative Action.

Women have been conducting the longest, non-violent revolution ever -- and its ongoing.


You might also have noticed that the highest level of unionization America ever reached was 39% --

we've dropped over the decades of right wing control to 8% or less.

Does right wing propaganda work when our "free press" refrains from explaining facts to the public?

Yes -- Reagans attack on the airline controllers is one blatant example of that.

However, we'd be naive not to understand that organized crime has always been used by elites to

disrupt/destroy unions. Especially in Reagan era.


What I'm trying to get through to all of you is that the problem isn't some far off machine telling you what to think. That's simply a poor excuse to blow off responsibility. You, and your family, friends, and neighbors made the choices you made. And me too. We are responsible, nobody else.

Rather, in your upside down world it is capitalism and the oil industry which needs to be gotten

off the hook. And you've offered quite some poor alibis for it.

Since our schizophrenic Constitution, elites have had control of government -- property, voting.

Slavery and oppression of women, native peoples. Interesting how we've all failed to free

ourselves against just a handful, isn't it?

It's done with political violence and stolen elections -- but I presume you haven't noticed any

of that over the past decades and half century, either?


:evilgrin:

[whereaminow]

154. I don't remember when those secret meetings happened

But if it was before 2004, then YES! we did vote for them. You still have to prove voting fraud.. theorizing about it won't win me over. Until there is call for sufficient oversight, you'll just have to live with what we have, and try to understand the foibles of majority rule.. and that, on the whole, the collective is pretty retarded... What's that saying? "A person is smart. People are stupid." Your corporations there are just exploiting that little fact. That's the nature of nature.

Does right wing propaganda work when our "free press" refrains from explaining facts to the public?

See? that's just it. You want it all spoon fed to you. Well now we have the internet. It might do to all authoritarians what bootleg satellite dishes did to the Soviet Union. There is no excuse for willful ignorance simply because information isn't handed to you on a silver platter. There's a "new" meme all the kids are using today "Just fucking Google it!" Whatever you do, please don't blame the hunter when you fall into his trap.

[defendandprotect]

159. Gore won 2000 ... at least catch up with that news!!

That's the concensus of the Journalist Consortium who recounted the votes ...

And not in any limited way -- but in any way you can count the votes -- Gore won.

Presume 2004 was also a Kerry win --

But, I seriously doubt that anyone who actually did vote for Bush -- 300,000 "Democrats"

in Florida voted for him! -- actually voted for everything that Bush and Cheney ever did

and it's beyond ridiculous to suggest such a thing.

You might also recall that little Cheney number went all the way to the Supremes . . .

cause of the huge disinterest in the subject! -- and Scalia, fellow Duck Hunter, didn't

recuse himself. Eh . . . Cheney won!

And when you say, "YES! we did vote for them" -- are you confessing that you actually voted

for Bush/Cheney?

There are constant calls for oversight -- corporate money has disconnected democracy and our

elected officials from the public -- and there is only a busy signal!

And you're close here . . .

and that, on the whole, the collective is pretty retarded... What's that saying? "A person is smart. People are stupid."

The right wing propaganda on that is "Mobocracy" . . . but you've recreated the intent fairly well.


Your corporations there are just exploiting that little fact. That's the nature of nature.


First, they aren't MY corporations -- nor is humanity a "dog eat dog" world --

Corporations are doing what they are being permitted to do by Congress/President --

and that is to practice predatory capitalism, free from regulation.

Information is being handed to viewers "on a silver platter" -- that is, right wing, corporate,

CIA/Pentagon information . . . i.e., propaganda.

When corporations go to the trouble of buying government they're not going to have a little thing

like a "free press" screw them up!

[whereaminow]

160. There wasn't a sufficient effort on our part to get an accurate count

We gave up.. The crowd was noisy, but small.. The numbers just weren't there...

But on top of that, with "Darth Sidious" on Gore's ticket, I am forever grateful we dodged that bullet. Cheney is a pussycat, comparatively speaking. The senator from Connecticut is far more dangerous and deviant, and no doubt cavorting with Cheney and Rumsfeld off camera anyway. So really it didn't matter in the grand scheme. And over 98% of you will continue to vote for a democrat/republican, and then complain about them.. rinse, repeat... I've seen it too many times.. But now I have a basic idea of the psychology behind it. See, that's the issue. And much of it was documented while it was happening back in the 30s.. So yeah, maybe you are in a trap.. And there you sit... with the key in your hand.. It tells me that in fact, that's where you find security. For others, it's a matter of protecting their own little fiefdoms. Either way, it is we who make the world we live in. You are free to follow the dreams of others(your masters, if you wish), or those of your own.

Oh well, you're not even listening to what I'm saying. You're just repeating your boilerplate talking points. You are squandering the abundant resources you already have at your fingertips. You're on the beach, dying from dehydration. Cursing the darkness, instead of lighting the candle. That's too bad..

A man is sitting on his porch as flood waters rise. A woman floats by in a boat, asking if the man needs help. "No, thank you," says the man, "I'm trusting in the Lord." The waters rise higher, sending the man upstairs. A raft full of people floats by his second story window. "Get in," they say, "there's plenty of room." "No thanks," says the man, "I'm trusting in the Lord." The flood waters keep rising, pushing the man up to the roof. A helicopter swoops in, lowering its ladder for the man. "Thanks anyway," shouts the man, "I'm trusting in the Lord." Finally, the man is swept away in the torrent and drowns. At the gates of Heaven, the man asks God, "Why didn't you save me?" "What do you mean?'' replies God, "I sent two boats and a helicopter."

And no, without concrete proof, I will not presume Kerry won in '04.

[defendandprotect]

161. Gore won . . . according to the recount by the Consortium ... any way you count it --

The Florida State Supreme Court was a "sufficient effort" for a mandated recount --

However, the GOP-sponsored fascist rally put in place to stop the recount in Miami-Dade

County worked because police didn't interfere with their violence.

Now SC Chief Justice John Roberts advised the Bush/Cheney camp on that one -- thus the

reward.


Otoh, can't help but agree with you re the demented Lieberman -- are we to believe he

was a surprise to Gore? After Gore spent years serving with him in Congress?

I will be voting for a Democrat because we have no real choice -- the corporations have

seen to that. We'll stop complaining when we get Instant Runoff Voting.


So -- did you actually vote for Bush/Cheney?

I'm listening . . . I'm not hearing anything but pompous nonsense --

Re confidence in the "Lord" -- do you know how many atheists are here at DU!

Try another line --

Prove to me the sun is coming up next Sunday --

and we'll prove to you Kerry won in 2004!!

[whereaminow]

162. Appears you don't understand the concept of the parable

Like those on the other side, you're taking everything literally. I'll make a note of that. Replace "god" with "flying spaghetti monster" if you wish. The message remains quite clear. You look, but don't see, and you listen, but don't hear. Seems to me you're admitting that I'm talking to the hand.

So -- did I actually vote for Bush Cheney... Why am I not surprised you would assume that if I didn't vote for the democrat, or Nader, it would have to be Bush/Cheney? Those blinders you're wearing are really effective..

You know, I really like you. Your denial is a perfect case study of what I'm trying to get across. I thank you for that. I hope it sparks a little introspection in others.

[defendandprotect]

163. Why did I presume you might have voted for Bush/Cheney . . . ??

because you state that "We" voted for Bush/Cheney . . . ???

But if it was before 2004, then YES! we did vote for them.

I made quite clear, thereafter, that I certainly did NOT vote for them --

Meanwhile . . .

Think I have to surrender to you, however, in the interests of time and your

superior intellect --

Bye --

[whereaminow]

164. Do you even understand the notion of the collective?

Well, we( that includes you and me) are part of that collective, like it nor not. You must have some serious inferiority complex to believe I am displaying "superior" intellect. That explains a lot.

Anyway, I'm all ears(eyes?). I don't shut out the people I disagree with. I find them, and you very enlightening and educational. I'm not looking for victory, as you seem to believe, I only put up a mirror, and not one of those funny ones that make you look fat. And the simple fact is that your perception of the situation is erroneous. I see nothing "victorious" in trying to correct it. Not over you anyway, but over the propagandists that will have you believe that you are helpless. I'm trying to tell you that you are NOT helpless, and you get mad at me? It's as if I open the door to your self imposed cell, and you are pulling it shut, telling me to leave you alone. All of this convinces me even more that government is not the problem. Again I have to thank you for clarifying what a steel trap mind looks like.

[NickB79]

124. And in the meantime, they drive SUV's and pick-up trucks instead?

:shrug:

There are plenty of people calling for electric cars, but it seems that few are actually willing to live with their convictions and drive the most fuel-efficient vehicles available in the meantime.

[defendandprotect]

128. Who has kept MPG down, except Congress in its alliance with oil industry?

We have elected officials who are pre-BRIBED and pre-OWNED by corporations --

and certainly by oil industry!

Were you invited to Cheney's secret energy meetings?

Were they protected again by a right wing Supreme Court which put W in office?

Rent "Who Killed The Electric Car?" -- it's probably at your library.

And discover what has actually happened -- and what happened to the entire State of California's

dedication to electric cars!!

30 years ago we had cars with higher gas mileage than we have now --

easy to fool people who think all that has ever happened is what they know about!

[NickB79]

140. Except that there have always been high-mpg cars available

Compact and subcompact cars, getting 40 mpg or better, have been around since the 1970's.

If the majority of Americans truly cared about environmental protection, global warming and Peak Oil, and followed their convictions, these vehicles would have been best-sellers for decades. Instead, every time gas prices came back down again, Americans went running for land yachts, trucks and SUV's.

Don't misunderstand me, I agree with what you're saying. I just think you give the American consumer too much credit in their ability to make rational decisions. Even today, the majority of Americans still think global warming isn't real, evolution isn't real, and Peak Oil isn't real. While oil companies, bribed congressmen and greedy car companies have been actively working against high MPG, most Americans have also been working against it passively through their ignorance of the issues despite the wealth of information at their fingertips.

[defendandprotect]

148. Watched the hearings on Global Warming yesterday --

Didn't see all of it --

but they did a bang up job -- you won't see it on TV, I'm sure other than C-span ...

The Democrats, of course, had a panel of scientists -- the Republicans didn't present

a scientist -- only a guy calling himself a "Lord" -- a legitimate inherited title --

and he was basically a journalist.

In other words, the Repugs couldn't even get a scientist to testify.

The pretense also extended to this journalist bringing "Greetings from the Queen" yet

he had never served in the House of Lords. Quite an attempt at right wing propaganda.

But, the underlying message is that right wing propaganda does work.

I was shocked when a young family guy recently said to me: "They're not even sure of

Global Warming now!" Evidently he had hit into the vein of right wing propaganda on the

e-mails, whatever they've been using quite effectively to confuse the public. I was

astonished. And how many others believe it.

They also addressed the confusion -- which people like Limbaugh foster re the increased

SNOW vs Global Warming and cooler weather. It's not difficult at all to understand when

explained, but right wing propaganda is firmly in place. And little is being done to

respond to it.

We need the Fairness in Broadcasting Doctrine back -- otherwise, we're simply giving our

airways over to people whose only aim is destruction of democracy -- and suicidal

environmental policies.



I do generally also agree with you ---

but people buy what's on the market -- and Congress has permitted these cars/trucks/buses

to be called automobiles. IMO, they're very damaging to the environment --

and, btw, our roads here in NJ still are in pretty bad shape. Corzine began to repave the

Raritan Bridge, but either its stopped now with Christie or they're not going to pave all

of it? Heavy traffic from these heavier autos and buses going over that bridge now.

And what do Americans really know of "Peak Oil" --?

IMO, Congress is responsible for permitting the MPG to drop -- and oil money certainly played

a role in that.

In other words, my confidence rests in a well informed public -- if not, it is impossible for

them to make rational decisions in purchasing. It is the decisions made BEFORE the purchase

we have to look at. And, in my experience, these bigger cars are usually offered at cheaper

prices and with better deals?

Do agree that with some digging the info is there -- but Americans don't talk politics with

one another. They've been trained to talk about nonsense, sometimes to keep the family peace.

These aren't issues they are used to considering because they're rarely discussed.

Again, I also agree with you --



:)

[Flatulo]

74. While corporate greed is no doubt a factor, the truth is that we will

need fossil fuels for a long time to come, unless you are willing to live without electricity, shelter, food or clean water.

[AlbertCat]

78. need fossil fuels for a long time to come

But perhaps not in the amount we've been sucking up... since a long time ago....




BTW... your attitude is also a factor, just like corporate greed. The same 'ol same ol' will no longer do.

[Flatulo]

88. You can't be serious... surely you are aware that China is

growing at 6.5% annually? And that they've bought oil leases all over the world, including the Gulf?

Do you think that the Chinese are going to go away? Do you think they give half a fuck about an oil spill on our shores?

The worldwide need for fossile fuels is going to continue to increase, and my attitude has nothing to do with it. There are economic forces at work that operate without regard to what you or I may think.

[defendandprotect]

96. Burning of fossil fuels is creating Global Warming -- therefore we need to move to alternative...

energy as quickly as possible.

We've known this since the mid-late 1950's . . . and it is only due to private

control of our natural resources and right wing disinformation bought by those

interests which has kept the public from understand that.

Additionally, we are close to peak oil -- which means that even if we wanted to

continue on as we have, we can't. The gasoline will be too expensive to support

suburbs -- to supply nuclear power plants -- to keep electricity flowing.

Commercial airline travel -- etal.

And, events like this latest with Halliburton/BP only prove the severe dangers of

continuing to "drill, baby, drill!"

What of the fishing industry and the people dependent upon it --?

What of death of wild life, nature?

There is no dollar bill which can make up for this loss of nature.

We have to stop judging everything by the yardstick of a dollar bill --

When we have no clean water, try drinking a dollar bill.

[daleanime]

4. Screw the thanks....

they need to pay thru the nose (preferable with a lead pipe.)

[RT Atlanta]

5. And this too...

Dolphins swimming off my beloved St. George Island, FL:




As well as some other good "before" shots of SGI:

[CLANG]

30. Unfortunately all future photos will be CGI

[pokercat999]

70. Been there....I haven't enough words or maybe the correct ones

to describe the feeling you get walking along St. George's beaches.I'd love to retire to that area, at least as of last week that was a dream retirement location.

Rant at BP all you want, it will do no good. We, the humans of earth are the cancer that eats away our own home. Until we can cure ourselves the only chance for life on earth is our destruction or decline in numbers to a sustainable population. Our current and growing population can only be sustained with the discovery of a free, renewable and pollution free source of energy. Until then so long baby.

[bertman]

76. Sad to say, but you are absolutely right, pokercat999. I am reading the National Geographic

recent issue about WATER. Talk about another HUGE problem for the planet. Astonishing to find out that California is expected to have another 50 million residents in a few short years.

We seem to think that it's our dog-given right to procreate and occupy every square foot of the planet regardless of the consequences.

The products of our opposable thumb and big mammal brain are the biggest problem on the planet.

[defendandprotect]

97. Hardly -- Americans have been only permitted birth control since late 1960's!!!

And that included MARRIED COUPLES -- !!

And look at the immediate effects of that -- and patriarchy everywhere trying

to push women to have more children! In fact, the Pope before this one, in an

unprecedented move, went to Italian Parliament and told them to "make Italian

women have more children." Why? Because the Pope so loved children? No --

because he foresaw that capitalism required labor.

The right wing works constantly to keep birth control from the public.

We've long had alternatives to oil -- it is the elites who control our natural

resources who have fought alternative energy sources.

Your argument is like saying that we don't have Unions because labor is too lazy

to work for them!

Unfortunately, the longer it takes for Americans to wake up to the reality that

it is political violence which shapes our nation the longer we will have predatory

capitalism running our economy.

[femrap]

6. I'm hoping that DUers

aren't buying BP gasoline anymore.

And of course I haven't bought Exxon since their accident.

Just give me an electric car.

[SPedigrees]

20. I buy citgo, coutesy of Hugo Chavez.

Not at all sure that Venezuelan drilling methods are safer though. Solar powered electric car would be my choice if one were available.

[Flatulo]

73. I work in the solar business. Let me tell you a few things about solar cars...

A typical solar panel is roughly 6' X 4'. You could fit maybe one of these on the roof of your solar car. Solar cells have incredibly low efficiency, on the order of 15-16%. The other 85% of sunlight that falls on them is turned into heat. In this country alone, there are thousands of scientists and engineers working night and day to improve this efficiency by 1 percentage point.

A panel this size puts out about 220 watts, or slightly less than 1/3 HP. (There are 746 watts/HP)

Modern compact cars produce about 175 HP from a four-cylinder engine. To match the performance of a typical compact, you would need 525 of these relatively massive solar panels on your solar car. Oh yeah, a solar panel of this size weighs about 40 pounds, so your 525 panels would weigh 21,000 pounds which is about what a city bus weighs. A solar powered car would not even be able to move the weight of its panels, never mind all the car stuff attached to it.

Even if you were willing to settle for only 5% of the acceleration of an internal combustion vehicle, you would still need 25 solar panels on your car.

There is just no way that something as massive as an auto (you do want them to be safe, right?) will ever be powered by the sun.

The reason cars are powered by petrol is simple - it is the most efficient fuel available and carries a tremendous amount of energy per gallon.

[tabasco]

127. 175 hp from a 4-banger is pretty damn good.

Your typical Toyota 4-cyl. makes about 100 hp.

[Flatulo]

131. Fine, 100 HP. Doesn't change the nature of the problem very much.

Solar is inefficient.

In addition, if you saw the waste created in making a solar cell, you'd get sick. The process steps are similar to what is done in the fabrication of silicon chips. Doping, grinding, plating, silk-screening, soldering... yuck.

[tabasco]

139. My car engine produces about 90 hp.

And it is PLENTY. The car is lightweight, accelerates well and cruises right along at 80 on the interstate.

Reducing waste and inefficiency should be the top priority, but Americans refuse to change.

[Flatulo]

145. But my point was that any solar array that you could fit on a car would

produce about 1/9 the power output of a standard lawnmower. It would not even be able to overcome the frictional losses in its drivetrain, which can accout for 30 + HP.

There's really no way around this.

[tabasco]

150. I understand your point.

I was making one, too.

[Flatulo]

72. Do you know where the electricity to run the electric car will come from?

By the burning of oil or coal.

[femrap]

93. Solar charged batteries,

someday? I believe there are solar farms that generate lots of energy.

But your point is taken.

[Flatulo]

132. Large-scale solar is still a long way off. Solar is currently

less than 1/10 of 1 percent of our power generation.

The problem is the economics. It takes a lot of energy to make a solar cell, and it produces a staggering amount of toxic waste, which has to be processed using - yep, more electricity. Once you've made the solar cell, the electricity it produces is much more expensive than the energy produced by the burning of fossil fuels.

Solar will only take off when oil and coal become MUCH more expensive than they are today.

[CreekDog]

112. not in California

your lectures on coal aren't as accurate as you think.

[whereaminow]

156. Just GIVE you an electric car?

Why don't you convert the one you have? See this semi-famous example:

[GreenPartyVoter]

7. This is just so tragic!

:cry:

[Oregone]

8. Humans suck

[louis-t]

9. No, greedy republickers suck.

[Dreamer Tatum]

10. So no Democrat had a hand in this, or ever benefitted from BP money, ever?

Riiiiiiight.

[Botany]

16. Democrats have gotten money from energy companies but .....

.... it was Dick Cheney and company that stopped the rule that deep water rigs
needed a certain type of shut off valve that would have kept this spill from happening.

Haliburton helped too.

[Dreamer Tatum]

17. There's oil on Dem and Repub hands, sorry to say

and that is a fact.

[Botany]

19. w/ out a doubt but this nugget goes right to Dick Cheney

mary landrieu is way dirty

[AlbertCat]

80. There's oil on Dem and Repub hands, sorry to say

True.... but it's not equivalent.

[defendandprotect]

99. Obama is high on the list -- and big friend of Exelon -- and Obama pushing ocean drilling....

Can't be denied!!

[flyarm]

47. ahhh no Botany..the Dems are up to their eyeballs in this and the oil money..so is Obama!

take it from one who lives on the Gulf..and his "Handlers" are also up to their eyeballs in this shitty oil that could destroy my entire state of Florida..and our once pristine beaches!

Don't kid yourself or anyone else!


.remember Dashle who pushed Obama during our primaries..working with Whitman..the lady who lied about the air quality at Ground zero in NY?? Can i tickle your memory..she fucking lied and people died and keep dying!! And that is just one example..

and these bastards were advisors making $120,000....from BP and now we face the death of the Gulf Of Mexico..and the possibility of the oil going up the Atlantic Ocean from the Florida Keys to Maine............oh and guess it is a coinsidence that BP wasn't audited last year??????? Oh and Obama got the most $$$ from BP..but they all got their damn pockets greased..both fucking parties..( 2 parties my ass!)

Come tell me there are two parties while you look at the dead birds and fish on my used to be pristine beach!

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Spill, Baby, Spill: Christine Whitman, Tom Daschle & Leon Panetta got on BP's payroll in 2007

Posted by Better Believe It


They went to work for BP in 2007 as advisors. They are shocked and surprised by the offshore oil rig explosion. After all, they were certainly impressed by BP's sterling safety record. And the company CEO flew them out over the Gulf of Mexico on a helicopter in 2008 to demonstrate the oil giants safeguards.

What in the world could ever suggest to Whitman, Daschle and Panetta that BP had major safety problems? They obviously never read or heard anything negative about BP's safety record in the mass media. And how in the world would they find the time to read that stuff? They were far too busy taking helicopter trips and counting their money from BP. BBI




Spill, Baby, Spill
By Michael Isikoff, Ian Yarett and Matthew Philips | NEWSWEEK
From the magazine issue dated May 10, 2010

BP has been trying hard to burnish its public image in recent years after being hit with a pair of environmental disasters, including a fatal refinery explosion in Texas and a pipeline leak in Alaska. One major step was to announce, in 2007, that it had hired a high-powered advisory board that included former EPA director Christine Todd Whitman, former Senate majority leader Tom Daschle, and Leon Panetta, who were each paid $120,000 a year. (Panetta left when he became President Obama's CIA director.) Two years ago the oil giant's chief executive, Robert Malone, flew board members out to the Gulf of Mexico on a helicopter to demonstrate the safeguards surrounding BP's advanced drilling technology. "We got a sense they were really committed to ensuring they got it right," Whitman told NEWSWEEK.

Now BP, formerly known as British Petroleum, finds itself blamed for what could prove to be the worst oil spill in U.S. history. And only weeks after Obama announced an ambitious plan to open up more U.S. offshore waters to oil drilling, shunting aside environmental concerns from his own Democratic Party, his administration is facing a comeuppance from hell. "There was a lot of wishful thinking, I guess," says Villy Kourafalou, a scientist at the University of Miami's Rosensteil School of Marine and Atmospheric Science. "The new technologies were said to be so wonderful that we'd never have an oil spill again." Rep. Frank Pallone (D-N.J.), who had sought to block the expanded drilling, says the oil and gas industry was pushing this idea hard. "They said, 'We'll never have a repeat of Santa Barbara,'?" referring to the 1969 rig explosion off the California coast. Both the Bush and Obama administrations "were buying the line that the technology was fine," Pallone adds.

BP pressed hard to make that point in D.C. Its PR efforts included payments of $16 million last year to a battery of Washington lobbyists, among them the firm of Tony Podesta, the brother of former Obama transition chief John Podesta. Last fall, after the U.S. Interior Department proposed tighter federal regulation of oil companies' environmental programs, David Rainey, BP's vice president for Gulf of Mexico exploration, told Congress that the proposal was unnecessary. "I think we need to remember," he said, that offshore drilling "has been going on for the last 50 years, and it has been going on in a way that is both safe and protective of the environment."

Read the full article at:

http://www.newsweek.com/id/237298

[CreekDog]

114. Obama is not "up to his eyeballs" in oil money

he has had donations to his campaign from BP employees, and rather small in the scheme of things.

the problem with your exaggeration is that I now can't believe the other stuff you've said.

good job.

[defendandprotect]

98. Evidently, 90% of the wells that Halliburton has worked on have exploded . .. !!

[Flatulo]

146. Got a source for this? Thanks

[Sebastian Doyle]

32. Well that depends

On whether you consider Mary Landrieu and Ken Salazar "Democrats" or not.

[Dreamer Tatum]

37. Ah, yes. The No True Scotsman Fallacy. nt

[Sebastian Doyle]

38. What would be the Scotsman equivalent of the DLC?

Probably would prefer to be called "British", never wear a kilt, and speak "the Queen's English" without that silly brogue.

[Dreamer Tatum]

40. Google is your friend: No True Scotman Fallacy. nt

[defendandprotect]

100. See: DLC -- corporate wing of Democratic Party --

[Oregone]

15. Humans become greedy Republicans

Most often rich or ignorant ones. Remove either, and sucky humans will create more.

[pundaint]

22. The corporations are right, Humans are the Problem!

We should remove those greedy human ceo's, that would maximize shareholder value. They could be replaced by an ATM machine in the Capitol.

[Oregone]

23. Corporations are merely an invention of rich humans to help them get richer

[OnyxCollie]

33. We need a better constitution.

I've been comparing the constitutions of the United States and Germany. I like what they've got going on.

It's funny, you know. The Allies wrote Germany's constitution to prevent another Hitler from happening, but everything the Allies were concerned about is happening here- the merger of government, corporate industry, and the military. And it's being broadcast nationwide by a handful of media corporations to audiences who have been educated all their lives to do what they are told to do.

"America will choose between Fascist control by a privileged group and control by the people, for the people." -Carroll Wooddy, 1935

They choose... poorly.

[defendandprotect]

101. Patriarchy: the bird with one wing --

Patriarchy, itself, in its war on nature and women is suicidal --

Capitalism is patriarchy's system of economic -- based on exploitation --

[earth mom]

28. You better look more closely at Obama if you believe that. He got big bucks from oil companies. nt

[NewJeffCT]

44. That's one of the new RW talking points

Obama got more money than anybody from BP...

[earth mom]

77. Too bad it's true and you can't handle the truth. nt

[defendandprotect]

102. Unfortunately, it's true . . . check the records -- CREW

[Andronex]

63. Barack Obama was the top recipient of BP contributions

Barack Obama was the top recipient of BP contributions in the 2008 election cycle, according to the Center for Responsive Politics. The Mineral Management Service's "categorical exclusion" of BP's Deepwater Horizon lease from environmental impact analysis, under the watch of Ken Salazar's Interior Department, was first reported by the Washington Post yesterday. The White House has yet to answer questions about either factor:

[pokercat999]

71. Like all of our govt...bought and paid for. It's past time to

burn them all.

[lonestarnot]

56. Only certain humans, piglickCONs.

[amborin]

11. and this

American Oystercatcher



humans maltreat every other species on this planet

[cognoscere]

24. Actually, they maltreat all the species. NT

[awoke_in_2003]

57. I love that orange/red beak. nt

[amborin]

95. so do i

on the west coast, the Black OysterCatchers seem to have an ever more fluorescent orange/red beak, and legs, too; they're the cutest things!

[defendandprotect]

103. Agreed . . .

And, patriarchy -- "the bird with one wing" -- continues its war on nature, women, children.

[graywarrior]

12. This is so heartbreaking I can't even go there yet.

I cannot look at the photos, I can't listen to the stories. It's just too much.

[JuniperLea]

13. I feel the same, graywarrior...

My mind quite literally will not let me go there. I have a sick feeling in the pit of my gut, a feeling of impending doom.

[snailly]

61. I've had the same sick feeling

It's well beyond tears.

[canadianbeaver]

14. The rape of the world......Tracy Chapman......

it is the RAPE of our world....I am so ashamed to be a human sometimes...its f'ng unreal.

[graywarrior]

18. And yet, the oil companies interests must be protected

Greed and power mongers.

[BlueJazz]

58. Through all of this..(and I know sometimes it's hard), keep in mine that..

..there ARE good, kind and caring people on this planet...like you, me, DU members and millions of others.
You're not alone. :)

[BlancheSplanchnik]

55. we're an exterminator species

and we won't stop pumping out more of us, killing everything in our path while we're at it.

[Kajsa]

51. Me too, Gray.

This was preventable.
It makes me sick to my stomach.

:(

[BlancheSplanchnik]

54. me too.

:(

[defendandprotect]

104. I feel the same way you do . . . HOWEVER, as Howard Zinn has often

pointed out ...

"Sentimentality without action is meaningless" --

and every time I get into that kind of feeling I try to remember what he said

and usually decide to brave it out and try to find a way to do something.

[tblue]

21. "Memories light the corner of my mind. Misty, watercolor memories of the way we were."

Someone should do a youtube with those images and that song. This is an unconscionable disgrace. Never. had. to. happen!

[defendandprotect]

105. Ah, but money will somehow magically make amends!!! No -- never--!!!

Try looking at a dollar bill at sunset --

Try drinking a dollar bill when you have no clean water --

Try eating a dollar bill when crops fail due to Global Warming --

We have to STOP judging everything by the yardstick of a dollar bill!!!



There isn't a dollar bill, euro, whatever anywhere that is worth one moment of nature!!

:)


And we have to take back control of our natural resources from elites/corporations --

Capitalism is based on exploitation of nature -- and even of human beings.

I think we've seen enough of capitalism to move on to Democratic socialism.

:)

[jobycom]

25. Please. We survive hurricanes for breakfast and oil spills for lunch every day.

The Coast ain't done yet. It might be a bit messy for a while, but we'll just sip Hurricanes at Pat O's or pina coladas at the Biloxi Hard Rock or Black Russians at the biker bars until things settle a bit, then we'll build a paradise from what's left. Nature and man has been trying to destroy that region since before white folk thought English was spoken there (it still isn't in many places, but don't tell them that), and so far all they've done is forced us to regroup.

That's not excusing BP or making light of this. That's just a tip of the hat to the spirit of my home, even if I don't get to live there for now.

[defendandprotect]

106. The "discoverers" have succeeded in destroying this continent in less than 500 years!!

Wake up!!

[Renew Deal]

26. THOSE FISHERMAN ARE MURDERS!!!

:evilgrin:

[postulater]

27. BP stands for Bendover Please, doesn't it? n/t

[and-justice-for-all]

31. All of that brought to you by:

[Andronex]

66. not really...

it's Obama's pick, democrat Sen. Ken Salazar (Interior Department), who exempted BP Gulf of Mexico drilling operation from a detailed environmental impact analysis last year...

[and-justice-for-all]

142. This is the end result of deregulation...

PERIOD.

[whereaminow]

67. What's wrong with this picture?

It doesn't show the 100 million or so people standing behind them, that voted for them, twice! I suppose any political upheaval might have preempted "Lost" for a couple of weeks, and we couldn't have that. Besides, that picture is obsolete. All of this is now brought to you by...

[and-justice-for-all]

141. Bull fucking shit...

go back to freep land..

[whereaminow]

151. Sorry to disturb your echo chamber here

Now, care to tell me where the "Bull fucking shit..." is? Or are you just ranting? Our refusal to accept responsibility speaks volumes about the real problem. Remember, step one is to say, "...I'm an alcoholic". The rest will fall into place very neatly. Otherwise you will get nowhere, and will only perpetuate the war.. As a matter of fact, the attitude displayed in your post is one of the many things that DO drive people to the other side. You're just handing the power over to them. Is that what you want? Because that is what you'll get.. Doesn't matter to me either way. I've been witnessing all of this for 50 years, so I know bullshit when I see it. And it's pretty evenly spread out.. Anyway, you can continue to play the victim if that's what floats yer boat... Me? I gonna kick back and watch, and throw the occasional monkey wrench into the machine..

[DeSwiss]

34. Damn! - K&R n/t

[Rex]

35. I wonder if this will change safety policies for the next couple of decades.

Can't be cavaliers forever.

[defendandprotect]

82. Evidently 28 of the 30 or 32 wells Halliburton has been involved with have had blowouts???

[HughMoran]

36. Uggh - makes me sick

I have to K&R this to ensure everyone realizes what is happening there :(

[Deep13]

39. A crime against the world. nt

[Odin2005]

41. BP execs shoukd be executed for crimes against the planet.

[bigwillq]

42. K and R (nt)

[bigwillq]

43. K and R (nt)

[Hubert Flottz]

45. A damned shame!

Sad!

[BrklynLiberal]

46. ...

:cry:

[Orrex]

48. I can think of only two ways to solve this crisis:

1. Total deregulation
2. Massive and permanent tax cuts for the super-rich

[ThatsMyBarack]

49. K+R for those great photos

ONLY! (Screw BP!)

[Celebration]

50. link to previous picture thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=8252940

[Bryn]

52. Look at my avatar. It's Florida Ibis. They might be gone if oil comes to

the Everglades/the Keys. Won't oil also will hurt the Everglades?

K&R Love the pictures. They're awesome. I am sick about all of this OIL mess coming to destroy such beauty and wildlife.

[troydavis77]

53. This saddens me

why did it happen?

[Bryn]

59. Welcome to DU

:hi:

it saddens me, too. :cry:

[Sebastian Doyle]

89. This is why even Jeb Bush was against offshore drilling (at least near Florida)

And the Bush Crime Family ain't exactly big oil hatin' envirohippies.

[Chipper Chat]

60. The worm has turned.

Armagedden will not come from God or outer space, but by our own hand.

[defendandprotect]

62. It's a war on nature ....

as patriarchy reflects its own ugliness, confusion, violence on the world --

Capitalism is based on exploitation of nature and that's suicidal --

[Flatulo]

75. Do you use any electricity? If so, you are also complicit in the war on nature. n/t

[Alcibiades]

65. If a terrorist did this, there would be torture

BP and Halliburton do it and it's no big deal.

[defendandprotect]

79. The very basis of Capitalism is exploitation of nature . . . yet, we ignore that reality!!

[guitar man]

68. I'm in tears at the thought

My family moved from rural Oklahoma to Gulfport Ms in 1979 when I was a sophomore in high school and I graduated from Gulfport high in 1982. I lived on the Ms gulf coast off and on after high school. Some of the happiest times of my life were spent along that coastline.

First Katrina, now this . Katrina couldn't be helped.... This could . :grr:

[defendandprotect]

81. Sad .....

but even sadder is the reality that Katrina didn't have to happen --

Other nations have found ways to protect their coasts --

yet the legacy of right wing government in America has been an absolute

failure to protect infrastructure, nor to invest in it.

The Bush role in the disaster also speaks to purposeful neglect, both before

and after the storm hit land.

[guitar man]

86. Yep

They should have built a sea wall, especially after Camille. But, it seems to be more important that the wealthiest aren't "burdened" with paying for such things. :grr:

[defendandprotect]

108. Agree -- but they didn't even build the levies as high as they were supposed to be--!!

Some of the countries -- and we've had some great photos shown here at DU -- have

done unbelievable things with building protections against the ocean's rising.

We need to stop burning fossil fuels which creates Global Warming.

[Pooka Fey]

69. KnR

:scared::cry::nuke:

[rrneck]

83. If they make a mess like this they need to be nationalized.

And have the idiots that caused it fired and possibly incarcerated.

[TwentyFive]

87. How many Suburbans, Escalades, Expeditions, Hummers will gas up today?

The time has come to get these gas hogs off the road. I know somebody who owns a Suburban. It takes 35-40 GALLONS to fill up, and it takes her 300 miles, IF she's careful with it. It seats 7 people...but 4 is the most she's ever carried. My Prius carries the same number of people...and I literally can't get less than 40mpg...no matter how hard I try...lol.

[mike_c]

94. how many subcompacts, hybrids, and whatever...?

How many weed whackers and leaf blowers? How many clothes dryers and how water heaters? How many stereos, televisions, and electric lights? Sure, big SUVs are worse than compact cars, in terms of overall efficiency. But the truth of the matter is that they are just the low-hanging fruit in our fossil fuel energy economy. If we eradicated every one of them tomorrow, we'd still be pumping crude at exactly the same rate as today, because we've reached the point where the energy deficit is self-maintaining. The developing world is only just beginning to hit its stride, and the developed world is a vast petroleum sucking beast. Every aspect of our lives is soaked in oil.

[defendandprotect]

113. How much petroleum thrown onto our lawns/farm land as "fertilizer" . . .!!!

Capitalism rules the day -- and it is not only exploitive it is predatory --


We can certainly move the suburbs to more efficiency -- put ground cover plants on soil

rather than grass . . . let towns organize to create local energy -- every building it's

own generator. Trolleys vs a thousand cars or more sitting at train stations every day.

Getting rid of the "family car" concept with public transportation in our suburbs.

Increasing mass transportation and the connections to it --

Improving rail travel which is atrocious and has been for decades!!

Let's find out when males are willing to drag the laundy to the nearby river/rocks --

Other than that, think we can return to outdoor clothese lines.

My TV is off most of the time except for C-span, Olbermann -- what would we lose if we

actually all put the TV in the closet?

These large auto/trucks should never have been permitted on our roads -- and, btw, here

in NJ our legislature set truck traffic free to travel on any local road they want - thru

our towns! What of all this weight on our roads and bridges -- infrastructure which the

right wing has basically let go to pot over the last decades?

We are on the oil track because our natural resources are privately owned -- and because

energy is basically a taboo subject which -- in the case of Cheney -- had to be taken

secretly into the White House for deal making and public barred from knowning anything.

As long as elites/private interests control our natural resources, this is what we will be

suffering -- exploittion of nature isn't a pretty sight! It's totally destructive of nature,

animal life -- and human life.

We have to stop judging everything by the yardstick of a dollar bill --

ain't no dollar bill or Euro yet invented which you can drink when your water

is no longer clean -- nor can you eat it when your crops fail.

Sit and look at a dollar bill at sunset?




How many weed whackers and leaf blowers? How many clothes dryers and how water heaters? How many stereos, televisions, and electric lights? Sure, big SUVs are worse than compact cars, in terms of overall efficiency. But the truth of the matter is that they are just the low-hanging fruit in our fossil fuel energy economy. If we eradicated every one of them tomorrow, we'd still be pumping crude at exactly the same rate as today, because we've reached the point where the energy deficit is self-maintaining. The developing world is only just beginning to hit its stride, and the developed world is a vast petroleum sucking beast. Every aspect of our lives is soaked in oil.

[defendandprotect]

109. ... and who let these ridiculous cars/trucks come into the market?

Who sets gas mileage, except our elected officials who are pre-BRIBED and pre-OWNED

by the oil industry?

[whereaminow]

152. Wrong question

It's supposed to be "who BUYS these ridiculous cars/trucks?"... Now as far as I know, there's nobody putting a gun to anybody's head and forcing them to buy anything they don't want or like, except maybe crap health insurance, But here again, the guy who did that was voted in fair 'n square..

You are talking about elected officials... Try to remember who elected them, not who bribed them. Turn your back on the propaganda, and render all campaign "contributions" totally valueless in the blink of an eye.

You have the power.. USE IT! Don't listen to the people who tell you otherwise.

[SmileyRose]

117. How many gallons of oil burnt up to make electricity and the hardware so you can post on the net?

You know what, if it makes you feel all superior to judge someones car choice more power to you. But don't kid yourself, a car choice has absolutely nothing to do with someones OVERALL carbon footprint and if ANY choice in your life uses even ONE DROP of oil then you are as equally responsible for the infrastructure necessary to obtain that oil and turn it into whatever it is that you use. Do you seriously think if we were to relegate EVERYONE to a PRIUS there would never ever never be an environmental disaster due to oil ever? Yeah right.

[defendandprotect]

119. How many trees, chlorine to produce our newspapers . . .

the net is a worthwhile effort --

You can't be ignorant and free --




Not to mention the garbage coming thru on our TVs -- from our corporate/CIA/Pentagon "free press" --

put them all in the closet!!

[SmileyRose]

121. Again

the net is certainly a worthwhile effort - but to pretend it has no environmental impact is just silly.

[defendandprotect]

130. Yes, I'm sure the internet is as environmentally destructive as BP/Halliburton--!!!

No comment on the majority of the oil wells Halliburton has worked on

have major problems?

They should be barred from any further work for our military/government --

and any further oil industry work!!

[IowaRevolutionary]

107. k&r

[Quantess]

134. Too late to recommend.

:kick:

[spanone]

143. obviously, we don't deserve it.

:nopity:

[Nikki Stone1]

144. Time for another American revolution to kick the British out.

.

[Capitalocracy]

153. But it's all green and friendly-like and it looks like a flower!

How could they be destroying the environment? :sarcasm:

[Whisp]

155. a bit off topic but I have to say it anyway... the day that individual

fucking cheese wrappers were introduced was the day we hung ourselves with our stupidity.

a bit of petrol for every cheese slice, that drives me crazy.

I was talking to my sis about this and she just didn't get it. To her getting even slices in wraps was important because when you try to slice it yourself you get uneven slices or they crack off at one end.

omg.
and this is just one teensy thing in a shitload of stupidity.

[Initech]

158. BP can go fuck themselves.