AAP Is Advocating for U.S. Pediatricians to Perform Certain Types of Female Genital Mutilation

[ccharles000]

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/american-academy-of-pediatrics-aap-is-advocating-for-us-pediatricians-to-perform-certain-types-of-female-genital-mutilation-fgm-92871624.html

NEW YORK, May 5 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- International human rights organization Equality Now is stunned by a new policy statement issued by the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP), which essentially promotes female genital mutilation (FGM) and advocates for "federal and state laws enable pediatricians to reach out to families by offering a 'ritual nick'," such as pricking or minor incisions of girls' clitorises. The Policy Statement "Ritual Genital Cutting of Female Minors", issued by the AAP on April 26, 2010, is a significant set-back to the Academy's own prior statements on the issue of FGM and is antithetical to decades of noteworthy advancement across Africa and around the world in combating this human rights violation against women and girls. It is ironic that the AAP issued its statement the very same day that Congressman Joseph Crowley (D-NY) and Congresswoman Mary Bono Mack (R-CA) announced the introduction of new bipartisan legislation, The Girls Protection Act (H.R. 5137), to close the loophole in the federal law prohibiting FGM by making it illegal to transport a minor girl living in the U.S. out of the country for the purpose of FGM.

FGM is a harmful traditional practice that involves the partial or total removal of the female genitalia and is carried out across Africa, some countries in Asia and the Middle East, and by immigrants of practicing communities living around the world, including in Europe and the U.S. It is estimated that up to 140 million women and girls around the world are affected by FGM. The U.S. Department of Health and Human Services estimated in 1997 that over 168,000 girls and women living in the U.S. have either been, or are at risk of being, subjected to FGM.

FGM is a form of gender-based violence and discrimination that is performed on girls to control their sexuality in womanhood, guarantee their acceptance into a particular community, and safeguard their virginity until marriage. Taina Bien-Aime, Equality Now's Executive Director explains, "Encouraging pediatricians to perform FGM under the notion of 'cultural sensitivity' shows a shocking lack of understanding of a girl's fundamental right to bodily integrity and equality. The AAP should promote awareness-raising within FGM-practicing immigrant communities about the harms of the practice, instead of endorsing an internationally recognized human rights violation against girls and women."

[PDJane]

1. The Islamic council finally bans the practice,

along with several African nations, and they come out with this? Is the US determined to go back to the dark ages?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

5. Yeah, right, whatever they say

Having lived where this is practiced and actively support my the local imams and political leaders I strongly believe that no proclamation or national law is going to change things. Sorry for my pessimism, but that is really the way it is in the middle east and northern Africa. The scary part is that "requirement" is being brought to the west and being continued today, as much by women as the men. Just incredible.

At a purely rational level I can almost understand their position in the sense of "If we do a token one then maybe they won't go have it done in a back alley or back in the old country". However, FGM is just so wrong at so many levels even that amount of humoring of it is unacceptable.

[Douglas Carpenter]

44. oh bullshit

I have lived in the Middle East half my life and I have never, ever lived anywhere where it is commonly practiced. Because it is not commonly practiced in the Middle East It is practiced in parts of East Africa and very rarely practiced in the Middle East and only very small part of the Islamic world outside of East Africa. And frankly I have worked in hospitals in the Middle East for half my life and I have never, ever come across a case of the practice that was not performed on East Africans.

[snagglepuss]

75. You're the one stating bullshit. Research shows it rife in Eypgt and Kurdistan

Thomas Von Der Osten-Sacken, the director of Wadi, a German nongovernmental organization that has worked in Iraqi Kurdistan for more than a decade, says the organization's research among Iraqi Kurds and also Iranian Kurds based in northern Iraq has shown that the practice of FGM is prevalent in the region.

"I think it's not wrong to say that within the Iraqi and Iranian Kurdistan the rate of the mutilated girls and women is in average about 60 percent," Sacken says.


snip
It is not clear why the practice is widespread among Iranian and Iraqi Kurds. In Iran, FGM cases are also reported in southern regions including in Khuzestan. But Von Der Osten-Sacken says that, according to the Shafii Islamic school to which most Iranian and Iraqi Kurds belong, female circumcision is obligatory for women.

"We found that wherever you have the Shaafi school of law, female genital mutilation is extremely widespread. That might be also one the reasons why you can't find it so much in Turkey or Syria's Kurdish communities -- because they're mostly Hanafi," Sacken says.

Some others, according to Zabihi, believe the practice was brought to Iran by Arabs. "Ronak Faraj writes in her book 'The Circumcision of Girls' that the reason for its in Iran's and Iraq's Kurdistan is the Arab invasion of Iran," Zabihi says.

http://www.fgmnetwork.org/gonews.php?subaction=showfull&id=1237227211&archive=




According to a recent study funded by World Health Organization (WHO) entitled Investigating Women’s Sexuality in Relation to Female Genital Mutilation in Egypt:

snip
Despite efforts by the authorities, NGOs, and international agencies to eliminate Female Genital Mutilation/Cutting (FGM/C), the practice is still widespread in Egypt and deeply rooted in the minds of the people,...


snip
In 2008, Egypt passed a law criminalizing FGM/C with punishments ranging from three months to two years in prison, and a fine of 1,000-5,000 Egyptian pounds (US$183-912)... However, the Demographic Health Survey of 2008 also indicated that 91 percent of women aged 15-49 were circumcised .


http://www.womenaid.org/press/info/fgm/fgm-egypt.htm

[Douglas Carpenter]

79. parts of Egypt, parts of Kurdistan and parts of East Africa

as I said, before - I have lived half my life in the Middle East - it is found some other place, but rarely - and at is criminal even where it is practiced - I have never once, come across one single case except from East Africans.

[snagglepuss]

80. Egypt is considered part of the ME and according to wiki

"the term has recently been expanded in usage to sometimes include Afghanistan and Pakistan, the Caucasus and Central Asia, and North Africa."

[snagglepuss]

81. How exactly is a man living in Islamic countries ever to be be privy to

such information? How many women in Islamic countries talk to foreigm men, let alone tell any man such personal information?

[Douglas Carpenter]

82. quite frankly, I lwork in the health care field and this is a subject that does come up

I have discussed it with OB/GYN nurses, midwives and others. It is widely practiced in East Africa and have heard that from several nurses and midwives. The fact that there is no evidence that it is widespread throughout most of the Islamic world, hardly proves that it is the case.

I talk with Muslim women of every conceivable background every day, all the time - admittedly not about this subject - still, your assumptions about the Islamic world are greatly skewed.

People would find it more credible to believe someone was genuinely concerned about women in the Muslim world if they didn't jump on every opportunity to attack and dehumanize Muslims - 50% who are women. The leading advocates who are trying to put an end to this practice are overwhelming Muslim women themselves.

[snagglepuss]

84. How do you account for the 2008 WHO study that shows FGM is rife in Egypt

and the research that I quoted earlier that shows that FGM is rife amoungst the Hanafi? Talk is cheap, where is data to support your claim?

[Douglas Carpenter]

85. I'm not disputing how common it is in Egypt. or in some other locations

there is no data to show that it is the common practice in the vast majority of the Islamic world

[snagglepuss]

86. Not according to Dr. Sami Aldeeb, ABU-SAHLIEH

Doctor of Law; Staff Legal Advisor in charge of Arabic and Muslim Law at the Swiss Institute of Comparative Law, Lausanne; Lecturer at the Institute of Canon Law, University of Human Sciences, Strasbourg, France.


"In Egypt, 97.5% of uneducated families impose circumcision upon their daughters compared to 66.2% of educated families 21. Other Arabic countries practice it too: Yemen, the United Emirates, Bahrain, Qatar, Oman, some areas of Saudi Arabia, Mauritania. It appears to be done also in some Muslim countries of Asia such as Indonesia, Malaysia, Pakistan and India under the name of sunnah circumcision, here with a reference to religion. But precise data on the subject are not available."


http://www.fgmnetwork.org/authors/samialdeeb/Mutilate/Chapter1.html


http://www.fgmnetwork.org/authors/samialdeeb/Mutilate/index.html


http://www.fgmnetwork.org/gonews.php?subaction=showfull&id=1171338119&archive=&start_from=&ucat=1&


http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/topic,45a5fb512,46556aac2,46d57879c,0.html


The point is that FGM is more widespread than you are willingly to admit and although there are fatwas against it, few countries where it is practiced put much effort combatting it and it won't stop if people downplay the scope of the problem.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

2. Whatever possessed them?

This is unbelievable, and horrifying.

They must hear from us!

K&R

[ProgressiveProfessor]

6. At a purely rational level I can almost understand their position

in the sense of "If we do a non damaging token one then maybe they won't go have it done in a back alley or back in the old country". However, FGM is just so wrong at so many levels even that amount of humoring of it is unacceptable.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

7. That thought crossed my mind too...

But you're right. This is a completely unacceptable stance.

If you didn't rec the thread, will you?

This needs to get to the Greatest Page.

[BlueIris]

33. There is no evidence the "nick" (as it is offensively being described) will be "non-damaging."

You can go on Ignore, too.

[laughingliberal]

3. Unbelievable! nt

[Warren DeMontague]

4. They need to stop humoring people about this bullshit, and call it what it is.

Barbarism.

[Bobbieo]

8. It does not stop women from getting pregnant -- just from enjoying sex. Am I right on this?

[CaliforniaPeggy]

9. That is exactly right.

The operation removes the clitoris and the surrounding labia; and I believe the remaining tissues are sewn nearly shut. All that is left open is a hole so that she can menstruate.

It is truly mutilation.

[snagglepuss]

51. That is exactly wrong.. FGM causes a host of complications including infertility.

FGM doesn't simlpy prevent female sexual pleasure.


Excerpts from the AAP position paper:


"The physical complications associated with FGC may be acute or chronic. Early, life-threatening risks include hemorrhage, shock secondary to blood loss or pain, local infection and failure to heal, septicemia, tetanus, trauma to adjacent structures, and urinary retention.25,26 Infibulation (type 3 FGC) is often associated with long-term gynecologic or urinary tract difficulties. Common gynecologic problems involve the development of painful subcutaneous dermoid cysts and keloid formation along excised tissue edges. More serious complications include pelvic infection, dysmenorrhea, hematocolpos, painful intercourse, infertility, recurrent urinary tract infection, and urinary calculus formation. Pelvic examination is difficult or impossible for women who have been infibulated, and vaginal childbirth can present significant challenges. Scarring may prevent accurate monitoring of labor and fetal descent. Although deinfibulation may facilitate delivery, women who have undergone deinfibulation are at increased risk of complications, including perineal tears, wound infections, separation of repaired episiotomies, postpartum hemorrhage, and sepsis.27

Less well-understood are the psychological, sexual, and social consequences of FGC, because little research has been conducted in countries where the practice is endemic.28 However, personal accounts by women who have had a ritual genital procedure recount anxiety before the event, terror at being seized and forcibly held during the event, great difficulty during childbirth, and lack of sexual pleasure during intercourse.29 Some women have no recollection of the event, particularly if it was performed in their infancy. Other women have described the event in joyful terms, as a communal ritual that inducted them into adult female society.30


snip


"It is tragic that the same procedure that made the daughter marriageable may ultimately contribute to her infertility.21 Parents are often unaware of the harmful physical consequences of the custom, because the complications of FGC are attributed to other causes and are rarely discussed outside of the family.22"



Another point that doesn't get mentioned is that FGM increases male sexual pleasure as the vagina opening is reduced to the width of a pencil.



http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/...

[Bobbieo]

17. Can I call a spade a shovel here and state she still can get fucked but she won't enjoy a moment

of the experience - JEEZ!!!!

[Warren DeMontague]

27. It's a horribly fucked up practice, and I have to disagree with the AAP that it merits "cultural

sensitivity".

No, it doesn't. I don't care how culturally ingrained a fucked up, abusive behavior is. How long have Priests been molesting kids? Are we supposed to be 'culturally sensitive' to the Vatican because they still don't 'get it'?

(They're already essentially immune from international laws that would have any other organization on the run from INTERPOL.. what more do they want?)

Maybe these discussions will spur re-thinking about the things some people routinely do to all kids, including infant boys, but THIS issue, right here, AFAIC, is not a place for soft-pedaling or "compromises".

It is what they used to call an 'educational opportunity'.

Trying to accommodate the practice -in any way, shape, or form- only ensures it will take longer to completely disappear.

[EFerrari]

30. My issue is with these supposed men and women of science.

Wtf are they thinking? They're indirectly suggesting that state and fed sanctions be softened.

It's been open season on women's bodies in this country lately. Unreal.

[snagglepuss]

46. You are quite wrong. FGM causes a host of complications including infertility.

Excerpts from the AAP position paper:


"The physical complications associated with FGC may be acute or chronic. Early, life-threatening risks include hemorrhage, shock secondary to blood loss or pain, local infection and failure to heal, septicemia, tetanus, trauma to adjacent structures, and urinary retention.25,26 Infibulation (type 3 FGC) is often associated with long-term gynecologic or urinary tract difficulties. Common gynecologic problems involve the development of painful subcutaneous dermoid cysts and keloid formation along excised tissue edges. More serious complications include pelvic infection, dysmenorrhea, hematocolpos, painful intercourse, infertility, recurrent urinary tract infection, and urinary calculus formation. Pelvic examination is difficult or impossible for women who have been infibulated, and vaginal childbirth can present significant challenges. Scarring may prevent accurate monitoring of labor and fetal descent. Although deinfibulation may facilitate delivery, women who have undergone deinfibulation are at increased risk of complications, including perineal tears, wound infections, separation of repaired episiotomies, postpartum hemorrhage, and sepsis.27

Less well-understood are the psychological, sexual, and social consequences of FGC, because little research has been conducted in countries where the practice is endemic.28 However, personal accounts by women who have had a ritual genital procedure recount anxiety before the event, terror at being seized and forcibly held during the event, great difficulty during childbirth, and lack of sexual pleasure during intercourse.29 Some women have no recollection of the event, particularly if it was performed in their infancy. Other women have described the event in joyful terms, as a communal ritual that inducted them into adult female society.30


snip


"It is tragic that the same procedure that made the daughter marriageable may ultimately contribute to her infertility.21 Parents are often unaware of the harmful physical consequences of the custom, because the complications of FGC are attributed to other causes and are rarely discussed outside of the family.22"



Another point that doesn't get mentioned is that FGM increases male sexual pleasure as the vagina opening is reduced to the width of a pencil.



http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/125/5/1088

[snagglepuss]

13. +1

[aquart]

10. No allowing them to refuse on grounds of conscience?

[EFerrari]

11. What's next? Shooting us in stadiums? Have these people lost their frigggin minds?

#3

[Luminous Animal]

15. C'mon E - did you read the study? This is misinformation.

This was a pure social science investigation where all practices were put up for scrutiny and no conclusions were drawn.

[EFerrari]

20. Here is the paragraph:

"The American Academy of Pediatrics policy statement on newborn male circumcision expresses respect for parental decision-making and acknowledges the legitimacy of including cultural, religious, and ethnic traditions when making the choice of whether to surgically alter a male infant's genitals. Of course, parental decision-making is not without limits, and pediatricians must always resist decisions that are likely to cause harm to children. Most forms of FGC are decidedly harmful, and pediatricians should decline to perform them, even in the absence of any legal constraints. However, the ritual nick suggested by some pediatricians is not physically harmful and is much less extensive than routine newborn male genital cutting. There is reason to believe that offering such a compromise may build trust between hospitals and immigrant communities, save some girls from undergoing disfiguring and life-threatening procedures in their native countries, and play a role in the eventual eradication of FGC. It might be more effective if federal and state laws enabled pediatricians to reach out to families by offering a ritual nick as a possible compromise to avoid greater harm."

http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/pediatrics;125/5/1088

[Luminous Animal]

21. No thanks to a link that lead to nowhere.

I read the text earlier, and what you quoted was part of a social scientific discussion. Not a recommendation.

[EFerrari]

23. Did the link break up for you?

It's their policy statement released 5/1.

This policy is a revision of the policy posted on July 1, 1998.
POLICY STATEMENT

Published online May 1, 2010
PEDIATRICS Vol. 125 No. 5 May 2010, pp. 1088-1093 (doi:10.1542/peds.2010-0187)
FROM THE AMERICAN ACADEMY OF PEDIATRICS
Policy Statement
Ritual Genital Cutting of Female Minors

http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/pediatrics;125/5/1088
Committee on Bioethics

I checked and it does break up. Hmm. Try this: http://preview.tinyurl.com/24fqnvb

[Warren DeMontague]

26. It's the semicolon.

It keeps the whole link from going through.

[Luminous Animal]

12. Read the damn paper.

They are not advocating it at all. They, as scientist as they are wont to do, are analyzing alternatives that are already in practice and looking for conclusions about their efficacy.

They are not, I repeat not, advocating for any type of FGM in any way shape or form.

[snagglepuss]

14. I read it and they are flat out wrong because they will be seen as condoning the

practice. What needs to be done is that the parents of any woman regardless of age found to be genitally mutilated need to be criminally charged.

[Luminous Animal]

16. Quote me where they condone it...

and don't bother quoting me from a blogger. Quote it from the actual study.

[snagglepuss]

39. You either didn't read the actual study or you simply skimmed it.

The AAP article clearly states that


"the ritual nick suggested by some pediatricians is not physically harmful and is much less extensive than routine newborn male genital cutting. There is reason to believe that offering such a compromise may build trust between hospitals and immigrant communities, save some girls from undergoing disfiguring and life-threatening procedures in their native countries, and play a role in the eventual eradication of FGC. It might be more effective if federal and state laws enabled pediatricians to reach out to families by offering a ritual nick as a possible compromise to avoid greater harm.

This conclusion is reached despite the fact that the AAP states that


"evidence that medicalizing FGC can prolong the custom among middle-class families (eg, in Egypt).35 Many anti-FGC activists in the West, including women from African countries, strongly oppose any compromise that would legitimize even the most minimal procedure.4 There is also some evidence (eg, in Scandinavia) that a criminalization of the practice, with the attendant risk of losing custody of one's children, is one of the factors that led to abandonment of this tradition among Somali immigrants."


http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/125/5/1088




IMO the AAP is taking this position to protect the odious practice of male circumcision. If they find a ritual nick for females unacceptable then how can they continue to justify male circumcision.

[Hannah Bell]

68. That's discussion within the paper, not the formal recommendations, which are:

The American Academy of Pediatrics:

1.Opposes all forms of FGC that pose risks of physical or psychological harm.

2.Encourages its members to become informed about FGC and its complications and to be able to recognize physical signs of FGC.

3.Recommends that its members actively seek to dissuade families from carrying out harmful forms of FGC.

4.Recommends that its members provide patients and their parents with compassionate education about the physical harms and psychological risks of FGC while remaining sensitive to the cultural and religious reasons that motivate parents to seek this procedure for their daughters.

The paragraph you cite is the only discussion of "ritual nicking" in the paper.

[snagglepuss]

71. They are equivocating. Although the recommendations state that AAP opposes

"all forms of FGC that pose risks of physical or psychological harm", the recommendations don't define what constitutes physical or psychological harm. If you look to the discussion, the statement "the ritual nick suggested by some pediatricians is not physically or psychological harmful" is left unchallenged as is the suggestion that it could be a compromise, "It might be more effective if federal and state laws enabled pediatricians to reach out to families by offering a ritual nick as a possible compromise to avoid greater harm."

[Warren DeMontague]

72. Interesting that they use the word "enabled", too.

Really, that's what they're doing. Enabling a behavior (a "tradition", if you will) that needs to be flat-out opposed with moral certitude.

[Warren DeMontague]

28. Wow. You get outraged over people eating cheesecake filled pancakes

but you can't bring yourself to overcome your "cultural sensitivity" when it comes to FGM?

Wow. Just wow.

[Hannah Bell]

38. another pile of straw. read the paper.

http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/pediatrics;125/5/1088?rss=1

[EFerrari]

42. What are you pointing to in the paper?

[Warren DeMontague]

58. I did read the paper.

They are advising 'cultural sensitivity' around this practice. I disagree. I think some things aren't worthy of 'cultural sensitivity'.

[snagglepuss]

47. BINGO. nt

[BlueIris]

32. Welcome to Ignore.

Those who rationalize misogyny get sent there but quick.

[Hannah Bell]

37. "rationalize misogyny"????? lol. READ THE PAPER.

http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/pediatrics;125/5/1088?rss=1


Don't you mean, you prefer outrage to facts?

[snagglepuss]

48. The paper fucking supports ritual nicking. What exactly do you wish people

to see?

[frustrated_lefty]

49. +10,000

[Luminous Animal]

18. Horrors! Isn't FGM a Muslim (!) practice?

Holy hell the AAP has NOT advocated "nicking".

Apparently, we are no longer allowed to discuss what is going on in thee real world without being branded as advocates.

Discuss clean needle dispensation? Pro drug addiction!

[snagglepuss]

34. Are you saying genital mutilation of girls is an addiction so

that Muslims who mutilate girls can't go cold turkey? Do you think that perhaps repressed sexuality is driving this beastly violent act?

[Luminous Animal]

19. I challenge the OP to read the original report...

and quote the sections where the AAP condones "nicking".

[Meldread]

22. Male and Female Genital Mutilation needs to be banned and criminally prosecutable.

I support The Girls Protection Act, but I think it's far time that people started stepping forward and saying mutilating the bodies of children - regardless of the reason - is not acceptable. If adults want to mutilate their bodies, more power to them. Children don't have a choice.

That's really what this is about in the end, choice. Another human being, even a parent, doesn't have the right to physically alter the body of their child as if that body were somehow their own.

[EFerrari]

24. Part of the rational used for this "ritual nick" stupidity

is that worse is already done to boys.

[Warren DeMontague]

29. I tend to agree, but I'd also tend to think, from a practical standpoint

that that is a fight for another day. The focus, here, should be on this.

This is a flat-out barbaric practice that should not be 'accomodated' with 'cultural sensitivity'.

[Touchdown]

55. +1

:thumbsup:

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ejpoeta]

31. yhat is bs! to allow parents to permanenly harm their own daughters!

[bobbolink]

35. Have some pity -- Poor pediatricians aren't making enough money.

They need to find as many avenues of revenue as possible, donchaknow.

Kinda like shrinks peddling drugs.

:nuke:

[Odin2005]

36. This is CULTURAL RELATAVIST BS!!!

FGM should be wiped out, not pandered to in the name of cultural sensitivity!

[Warren DeMontague]

77. Exactly.

Maybe by addressing it head-on, it can be stopped before it carries on into the next generation, and the next.

[frustrated_lefty]

40. Everyone throwing a hissyfit

needs to hurry over to South Africa and fix this right now!

[EFerrari]

41. South Africa? What does South Africa have to do with this?

[frustrated_lefty]

45. If a symbolic nick bothers you that much, go to the source.

Rather than railing against doctors trying to accommodate social traditions, take your beef up with the source of the tradition.

This really pisses me off. 364 days out of the year, you don't think about clitoridectomy. The 1 day you hear about doctors trying to do something to eliminate the practice, you bitch at the people who are actually trying to make things better.

Since you can do better, go to the source and stop this activity from occurring.

[EFerrari]

50. First, you need to read the article. Second, you need to get a map.

Third, you have no idea what I think about. And lastly, softening state and federal regulations about FGM is not a solution.

[frustrated_lefty]

53. I don't get your reference to the map. Africa is where FGM is

most commonly found. Eliminate the desire for it there, and there would be no need for pediatricians in the US to perform even a ritual nick.

You are entirely correct, I do not know what you think about. But, this entire thread is bitching and moaning about American doctors trying to make things better. I maintain that if you (the generic "you," not "you" specifically) want to eliminate FGM, the best place to act is where FGM occurs, not where it is merely accommodated.

[EFerrari]

59. You know that Africa is a very big piece of land, right? This has nada to do with S. Africa.

And you know that doctors have to deal with situations that migrate here all the time, right?

There is no reason in the world for American doctors to accommodate this. Zip. Zero. Zilch. Their own panel says they don't know the consequences. What responsible professional would recommend a procedure whose consequences they don't even know?

Brainless and they're getting a lot of well deserved heat for it.

[frustrated_lefty]

64. You're ignoring one big factor.

The idea is that if American doctors perform this ritual event, the parents won't have the real thing done to the child in a back alley.

We can ignore the situation. That won't make it go away. It's up to politicians to argue human rights. Not everyone is a hero, and I think doctors sometimes have to act within the boundaries established by others.

It's tangential, but I spent 10 years doing AIDS research. The most prospective studies performed, drawing the most data from the greatest number of individuals came from South Africa. It's habit for me to preceed Africa with South.

[Dr Morbius]

66. I disagree.

It is NOT "up to the politicians to argue human rights."

Human rights are far too important to leave to politicians.

[EFerrari]

67. No, I'm not ignoring anything.

The idea that only cutting a girl baby a little bit is a solution so unbelievably wrong that I hope these people get as much shit as possible for proposing it.

[frustrated_lefty]

70. This is my last post on this topic.

As a father, I would beat the living crap out of anyone who approached my daughter with a scalpel. There is, in my mind, something fundamentally wrong with FGM.

In my field, though, I have to consider other's beliefs. Fortunately, I am not a pediatrician.

As a father, the notion of cutting a baby girl does strike me, as you say, as "unbelievably wrong." You didn't really address my point, though. What is a doctor supposed to do when faced with the coice between a small, sterile nick vs a back alley job which will be much more damaging?

It's a deeply troubling issue.

[Warren DeMontague]

76. "What is a doctor supposed to do..."

Contact the authorities.

[EFerrari]

83. It's a false dilemma. This lesser evil is still evil

and only serves to institutionalize the original evil further. It's a step in exactly the wrong direction. This is not harm reduction; it's still harm.

[snagglepuss]

52. AFRICIAN WOMEN who oppose FGM also oppose ritual nicking,

I suppose you support the ongoing Arab tradition of slavery, and the furtherance of the Untouchable caste in India or the widespread cruelty of bear baiting which is a grand old tradition? Cultural relativism is pure and utter bullshit.



snip


Many anti-FGC activists in the West, including women from African countries, strongly oppose any compromise that would legitimize even the most minimal procedure.4 There is also some evidence (eg, in Scandinavia) that a criminalization of the practice, with the attendant risk of losing custody of one's children, is one of the factors that led to abandonment of this tradition among Somali immigrants.36


http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/125/5/1088

[frustrated_lefty]

57. Don't expect a reply when you're deliberately obtuse

[snagglepuss]

62. Do you know what obtuse means? How do the questions I pose, that you

refuse to address, indicate I am obtuse?

I ask again do you support the traditional enslavement of black africans by Arabs? Do you support the traditional "sport" of bear baiting, still widely enjoyed around the world? Do you support the traditional Hindu caste system, the lowest caste being people deemed untouchable?

[Dr Morbius]

43. "Cultural sensitivity" < Human rights.

Simple as that.

[snagglepuss]

54. Exactly. nt

[Touchdown]

56. So how much would a "nick" go for today? $200? $2000? For profit HC strikes again!

Human rights violations don't matter. Profits do. :puke:

[frustrated_lefty]

60. An adult clitoral piercing with jewelry runs $75-85

[Touchdown]

61. But that's in a piercing shop. How much in a hospital?

Plastic cups with lids can be gotten at Target for $3 a six pack. A hospital charges $60 for an "official" piss cup.

[EFerrari]

63. What a bizarre and inappropriate comparison.

You must be joking.

[frustrated_lefty]

65. Well....

yes, I was joking. It's a sad topic and I was trying to introduce some levity.

[EFerrari]

69. Sorry. I should go do something else. nt

[suffragette]

73. They also recommend not calling it mutilation

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/125/5/1088

In addition, "mutilation" is an inflammatory term that tends to foreclose communication and that fails to respect the experience of the many women who have had their genitals altered and who do not perceive themselves as "mutilated." It is paradoxical to recommend "culturally sensitive counseling" while using culturally insensitive language. "Female genital cutting" is a neutral, descriptive term.


Yeah sure, just a "ritual nick" and, shh - don't say mutilation.

Ironic that they discuss this as being insensitive. What about the sensitivity to the girls who have no say in being - yes, I'll say it - mutilated?

[snagglepuss]

74. This kind of bullsh++ is beyond contemptible. IMO the main reason AAP is taking this

position on ritual nicking and wanting to use "neutral language" to describe female genital mutilation is to protect male circumcision which is increasingly coming under attack as studies show that babies do feel extreme pain when the "cutting" is done.

[Touchdown]

78. I think you're on to something.

And using vague language like circumcision instead of "male foreskin amputation", "infant male mutilation" or some other more descriptive term is how it's become a cultural/religious/medical tradition in this country. The pro-circumcisionists seriously bristle when you call it something less benign as well.

We would be more outraged as a nation if we "Kidnapped and Tortured" people, even our own citizens. But instead we engage in "Rendition and Heightened Interrogation Procedures" on people, including our own citizens, which is no big deal.

FGM, or Female Genital Mutilation is an appropriate term. Changing the term is only to mask the barbarity of the act itself, and those who change it are exposed as selling something.