Our low-wage SERVICE-based economy will require our social safety net perhaps more than ever before.

[Union Yes]

Unemployment benefits.
Education/Job retraining.
Housing assistance.
Public Transit.(yes, this is a safety net issue. Many can't afford a car and rely on PT to get to their low-wage job.)
Home-buyer assistance.
Food assistance.
Homeless shelters.(former white collar workers can now often be found sleeping in homeless shelters.)
Health Care assistance. We'll still need to reform HC.
Retirement security.
Social Security.
Medicare/Medicaid.

I now know 6 different very close family/loved ones/friends who have been forced to sell or 'cash-out' their entire retirement savings.

Please stop and think about that for a moment.

6 close loved ones have admitted to me that they were forced to sell their retirement. I could tell they were somewhat ashamed for doing so. I felt a sense of humiliation coming from them when they told me. As if they weren't very proud of the fact that they were forced to do what is seen as 'financially irresponsible', even though they were forced.

Why were they forced to cash-out?

Either do so or don't eat. Do so or get forclosed on or evicted.
Survival matters.

Again, please stop and reflect on that.

If I know 6 people who were willing to admit something that is somewhat humiliating, think of how many people I know that won't admit that to me.

Now, please think about how many people you know that this may apply to. Has any person that you know admitted to cashing-out their retirement in order to survive? Perhaps some who read this don't know anyone that this applies to. But I'm guessing that most DU'ers do know people that have been forced to do the same.

Forced to sell their retirement savings in order to survive. If they're lucky enough to ever have been able to save in the first place.

..................................................................................

(for those who may not know the meaning of the term "Service-Based Economy")

Service-based economy- Think Walmart/Mcdonalds/Home Depot. Workers provide a service. Cooks, cash registers, Walmart workers, Home depot workers etc.

A low-wage service-based economy is making it nearly impossible for folks to save any money for their retirement.

How are people supposed to save for retirement when they are paid the Walmart/Mcdonalds/Home Depot wage?

Impossible or nearly impossible to save.

Proves the need for our social safety-net programs listed above. Think of the disastrous consequences our nation would suffer without these safety-net programs.

What would the masses of unemployed do to survive w/o unemployment benefits? Turn to crime? Food riots?

Our service based economy is clearly diminishing life for too many Americans. They have no choice left but to turn to our safety net programs in order to survive.

Proving..

Our low-wage service-based economy requires our social safety net perhaps more than ever before.

[OHdem10]

1. Keep in mind. J Immelt, head of GE told us (at the time of the WH

Jobs Summit)---We made a mistake when the decision was
made to turn our US economy into a Service Economy.
The American Economy cannot be sustained on Service Jobs.
He added we need to change so that Manufacturing is at
least 15% of GDP.

However, Wall Street goes into a Panic so strong the
President has to run to the closest microphone and
loudly proclaim --I support Free Trade.

Greece is a Service and Tourist economy. Preview of Coming
Attractions. There are economists who say this is
one of Greece's Problems. They will not be able to
repay their loans and debts. No industrial base means
no serious growth, the kind necessary to bring in the
money needed.

Our Service Sector cannot support our nations economy.

[Union Yes]

10. Very well said. I fully agree.

SBE the low paying jobs that come with it are unsustainable. Our economic collapse was driven in a huge part by de-funding the remaining 80% of us.

Sapping the earning and purchase power of 80% of a nations population is a prescription for economic disaster. We are living that disaster as we type.

:fistbump:

[JNelson6563]

2. This is for certain.

I am a retail manager and, though I make more than minimum wage, I scrape to get by (I am a single mother with no support from the dad). I get one day off a week currently. Every other week on my day off I babysit for extra money and I sell stuff on e-bay at times too.

I admit that I do take advantage of the fact that my boss pays almost no attention to certain things and I pay our hourly help the best wages I can get away with, probably the best in my downtown area.

Julie

[Union Yes]

11. Your employees are lucky people to have a good hearted boss like you!

Thanks for sharing. Pains me that life has to be a struggle for good hearted folks.

Perhaps someday, things will change.

Hope is about all I got left.

:fistbump:

[JNelson6563]

22. I feel lucky to have them!

They work so hard and are very loyal! I really care about them as fellow humans and I think it's mutual.

Thanks for the kind words. :hug:

Julie

[Kievan Rus]

3. A service economy is unsustainable

[chill_wind]

7. Especially when it's about all we have left

and more and more a big chunk of it is one paycheck from going under
and joining the rolls of those already there.

[Union Yes]

14. Yep, fully agree. nt

[Knight Hawk]

45. Yes,also

Fully agree.

[KG]

4. time to tax the hell out of those that benefit the most to pay for it.

[bulloney]

31. "tax....from those who benefit the most."

That's what we have to do in a nutshell.

Every time some company announces it's considering locating a business in a community, the local and state officials stumble over themselves coming up with the biggest tax abatement packages to offer them.

THESE COMPANIES ARE USING OUR INFRASTRUCTURE TO MAKE MONEY. COMMUNITIES AND STATES IMPROVE HIGHWAYS, EXTEND UTILITY SERVICES, AMONG OTHER THINGS TO ACCOMMODATE THEM. THEY NEED TO PAY FOR USING IT. IF THEY DON'T WHO DOES? THE LOWER AND MIDDLE CLASS WHO ARE ALREADY BURDENED BECAUSE THEIR WAGES HAVE BEEN STAGNANT IN THE LAST 30 YEARS.

Jobs these companies create are a by-product. These companies don't locate in communities primarily to create jobs. They locate at a place to make money. They need labor in order for them to make money. If these companies can accomplish this without hiring labor, you know they will do it in a heartbeat.

How many times have we seen companies receive lucrative tax abatement packages? In return, they're supposed to have created XXX number of jobs in XXX number of years. Has any company ever come through on their end, with the job creations?

[Greyhound]

73. Two things that fix the most pressing problems we have today;

Wall Street Transaction Tax and remove the cap from FICA.

Just try to get the politiwhores to even discuss these solutions.

[LiberalLoner]

5. The other thing that is scary is that just about all politicians are now calling for the

entitlements programs to be cut even further - to absolutely nothing.

People who are my age now or younger (50 or younger) will never be able to retire and will never have anything more than a serf's existence.

We have fallen incredibly far as a nation in my lifetime and I fear we will fall so much further still. America is becoming a dystopia.

[ipaint]

6. There is a sizable chunk over 50 who won't retire either.

Always has been. Try finding a service job at 56.

[JDPriestly]

53. There are no jobs for older people -- at least not jobs that pay a wage

that you can live on.

Social Security is not enough.

Plans to cut the deficit by cutting social programs will fail.

[Union Yes]

13. Race to the bottom is a horrible doctrine.

I fully agree with your reply. Well said. Sad, but well said.

[elocs]

24. I will be 58 this summer and I intend to retire at 62 and I am dirt poor.

I have maybe $5000 in an IRA and that's it, but my living expenses are very low and I've always adjusted how I live to my income. There's just me so I get along fine and I'm better off keeping myself poor than working full time. I am comfortable, making enough to pay my bills, and although I have little I don't consider myself to be living a serf's existence.

I realize that people have obligations and expenses, but too many people make themselves slaves to their stuff and possessions. There is nothing that I owe and nothing that I own that would cause me not to be able to retire. I also appreciate that as poor as I am in this country I am light years better off than billions of other people in this world who need to struggle each day just to get by.

[Solly Mack]

8. k/r

[Dr Morbius]

9. We must bring manufacturing back to America.

We must.

I don't know how.

But it is clear we must. Upon this the security of the nation depends.

Great post, thanks.

[hack89]

15. It never really left

it just changed - we no longer make low margin consumer goods because we can't compete on labor costs. We dominate in high tech, high end products like aerospace, electronics, computers, chemicals, machine tools.

The problem is our education system - we still prepare kids for a 1900's economy where working an assembly line didn't require much education. High tech manufacturing requires workers with better education and skills.

My father in law dropped out of school at 15 yet made a good living for his family working on an assembly line - today's economy doesn't allow that. That is the seismic shift that our economy is going through.

[conspirator]

69. It is true. America and Japan have the most powerful industrial complexes

but, unfortunately industry no longer require many workers, as everything is automated and computerized.
One day it will happen the same to the services industry. Hell it's happening already.
Once all government departments and private Companies are paper free, a lot more people will be in the streets.

[hack89]

12. Wrong - America is the worlds largest manufacturing economy

by a huge margin - and it is not getting smaller. America's share of global manufacturing has held steady at 22% for decades. China is presently at 13% and growing - but that growth is not at the expense of America - increased internal demand is absorbing most of it.

The issue is that we cannot compete against third world labor costs when it comes to making high volume, low-margin consumer goods - that's why we no longer make TVs, clothes or furniture. Those are the jobs we are losing.

American manufacturing is concentrating on high-tech - high margin goods such as aerospace, chemicals, computers, manufacturing equipment. But the problem is that such industries demand a better quality worker than making cars or TVs - they need to be better educated and trained.

That is the real issue - America's failure is it's inability to reform their education system to give people the skills to survive in a modern economy. Our schools are designed to produce workers for a 1900 style economy where minimal education was OK to work on an assembly line.

[Hannah Bell]

20. "US share of global manufacturing" = in dollar terms, not in terms of jobs or output.

"America's failure is it's inability to reform their education system" - yeah, that must be why US exporters offshore to employ Mexican & Chinese peasants, because of the great education they got in the hinterlands of those places.

Nah, it's about LOW WAGES & HIGHER PROFITS.

[Dr Morbius]

25. Yes, it is. Exactly.

But I also think our educational system needs a serious rehaul too.

[hack89]

26. No - its output is actually growing

If America's manufacturing sector was its own country, it would be the 8th largest economy in the world. I think people really lose track of how huge the US economy is even when compared to its nearest competitors.

America is too expensive for labor intensive manufacturing - people don't want $10,000 TVs or $1000 microwaves. There is no future for the American worker making consumer goods. American manufacturing builds capital goods, not consumer goods - to the tune of a trillion dollars a year in exports alone.

High tech manufacturing is not low wage - but it requires better educated workers.

Your comment about education reinforces my point - if two groups of semi-skilled workers competes against each other, the less expensive group wins. America needs to reduce the number of semi-skilled workers.

[Elwood P Dowd]

27. Your argument doesn't hold water.

We don't dominate in computer and electronics manufacturing. Asia, specifically China, is taking over that industry. The US factories still left making consumer electronics are turning into "screwdriver factories" that basically just put together Chinese-made components into a final product.

$10,000 TVs or $1,000 microwaves? Retail prices wouldn't change quite that dramatically if those goods were made in the USA. I retired from the consumer electronics industry after 30 years on the retail side. Almost all of our suppliers had moved production to China by then. Did the prices drop when they changed from $15.00 an hour US factory workers to 60 cents an hour Chinese workers? No, the prices stayed the same. What did change? The company executives and their investors pocketed the difference and made a fortune. Your argument about increased prices reminds me of the talking point that a head of lettuce would cost $20.00 if farmers paid American citizens a real living wage of $12.00 an hour to harvest it. In reality, the cost to harvest a head of lettuce at that wage would only increase by 20 cents.

It's not just manufacturing jobs leaving the country in droves. Engineers, computer programmers, and highly trained tech support workers are now seeing their jobs shipped out of the country. What good does it do to spend $100,000 bucks over five years for your engineering degree only to see your job taken by a Chinese or Indian engineer making $10,000 a year? Have you looked at the engineering graduate schools lately? They're often dominated by foreign students. Americans are struggling with massive debts to pay for their education, and when they receive it the jobs are gone to other countries. It's a race to the bottom that education can't fix. Our country is full of unemployed or underemployed educated and highly trained skilled workers as it stands now, and the numbers are growing.

Yes, US manufacturing is still big, but it use to be over 25% of our GDP. Now it is 12% of GDP and will continue to fall. The race to the bottom is in high gear, and education will not stop it.

[hack89]

29. You miss my points

American manufacturing can only succeed making capital goods, not consumer goods. That's where the pain is coming from - we have lost all those consumer goods manufacturing jobs and there is no way they can come back.

Your comments on prices is wrong - you forget how Walmart makes their money. They put enormous pressure on companies to cut prices so Walmart can sell cheap. The idea that corporations are reaping huge profits making cheap consumer goods to be sold in Walmart is nonsense.

High tech jobs are not leaving the country in droves - quit the opposite. Read this link - it makes clear that there is a shortage of skilled workers in America. One that will get worse as the baby boomers retire.

Forty percent of Boeing workers will be eligible for retirement within five years. “That’s some 60,000 employees eligible to retire. . . . We just don’t see the pipeline meeting our needs,” says Rick Stephens, Senior Vice President for Human Resources at Boeing.

In China McKinsey reported that approximately 400,000 engineers graduate each year, but found that only about 40,000 are suitable for employment at companies with global standards because of their low-quality education. China’s export economy is moving up the value chain as it makes more sophisticated products. Wage inflation has increased. Skilled technicians are now in short supply. In Guangdong, China’s manufacturing heartland, skilled technicians now command a 65 percent wage bonus. Chinese engineers and technicians are returning home from around the world for these higher wages or to start their own companies.

India’s IT industries face a similar acute labor shortage. U.S. businesses can no longer use these countries as talent safety valves to fill their future unmet skill needs.

Thirty-two percent of U.S. manufacturers report a skill shortage in the midst of this great recession. How will our high-tech economy cope once expansion begins again? The talent pipelines are broken. Younger people have long spurned science, technology, engineering and math-related (STEM) jobs. America’s businesses have chronically underinvested in training their own workers, or helping support higher quality science/math education programs in their communities to better prepare youth for careers in a high-tech world economy.

http://www.britannica.com/blogs/2010/03/us-job-shortage-or-skill-shortage/

The problem is our education system

[Elwood P Dowd]

32. I don't believe any of that bullshit.

I know what I've seen in the business, and corporate talking points mean nothing to me anymore. I know three electrical engineers and a computer programmer that are now working at places like Lowes and Radio Shack making peanuts. They keep giving me horror stories of similar situations with friends, old fellow classmates, and relatives.

[hack89]

33. I know my company has a hard time finding certain skills.

but believe it or not - I wouldn't want to upset your view of the world.

[Elwood P Dowd]

35. We can't educated ourselves out of this mess.

The people can't afford it. The federal government is broke and can't afford it. State governments are broke and can't afford it. We could go back to taxing the rich at 70%, but that would go over like a lead baloon with the owners of our political parties.

It's greed by the corporations and their investors that are the problem. They will ship ANY JOB out of the country if it increases their profits. I've seen how much extra money these people make by moving production offshore.

[Union Yes]

36. I just say it plainly- It is complete fucking bullshit to say that we cannot bring

back our manu base. We could if our government had the fucking guts and wasn't a subsidiary of corporate America.

[hack89]

40. We didn't lose our manufacturing base

it changed. Manufacturing GDP has grown at the same rate as GDP for decades. Output is higher in terms of both value and quantity. We export a trillion dollars a year in manufactured goods.

The difference is that the manufacturing base has shifted to goods that don't require competing with low cost labor. We manufacture capital goods not consumer goods - the ratio right now is 8 to 1.

[JDPriestly]

54. College and university educations cost too much.

Scientists are not respected in the popular culture. It's a real shame. People see playing basketball or acting as ways to get ahead, but not math or science.

[hack89]

65. They all want to work on Wall Street and be millionaires. nt

[DatManFromNawlins]

61. That's a funny kind of myopia you have there

Used to be that companies would hire educated people who had the intelligence to do a job and then train them to do the work. Now, companies want a free ride. They expect that their employees be subject matter experts from the day they set foot in the door.

[hack89]

64. No - the problem is that American kids have turned away

from the engineering and scientific majors - they all want to go to Wall Street and be millionaires. The problem my company faces is that there are not enough young people to replace all the retiring baby boomers. Where I live is a large Navy lab - they are so concerned about the shortage of engineers coming out of college they have started a cooperative program to mentor high school students and steer them towards the sciences.

We train young engineers - we have strong internship program. Its the numbers that is the problem.

[w4rma]

67. Well they had better come back or else this nation is going to emulate Mexico or Columbia. (nt)

[hack89]

68. They will never come back

We didn't lose our manufacturing base - it changed. Manufacturing GDP has grown at the same rate as GDP for decades. Output is higher in terms of both value and quantity. We export a trillion dollars a year in manufactured goods.

The difference is that the manufacturing base has shifted to goods that don't require competing with low cost labor. We manufacture capital goods not consumer goods - the ratio right now is 8 to 1.

We need to fix our education system. If two groups of semi-skilled workers competes against each other, the less expensive group wins. America needs to reduce the number of semi-skilled workers.

[AdHocSolver]

83. There are not enough jobs in high tech capital goods manufacturing to sustain the US population.

The U.S. economy will NEVER recover until most of the goods that Americans BUY is manufactured in the U.S. by American labor.

The offshoring of the manufacturing of everyday goods that Americans buy -- clothes, shoes, appliances, tools, toys, electronics, hardware, dinnerware, and more -- is the root cause of the U.S. economic problems, and any solution must include bringing back manufacturing everyday goods to America.

Only when the money spent by Americans to buy everyday goods goes to pay other Americans, rather than to be shipped off to China or India, will our economy be sustainable.

The current system is designed only to maximize profit for the corporations. It is a totally artificial construct set up by corporate cartels by means of restrictive trade agreements such as NAFTA, the WTO, the IMF, the World Bank, and similar ilk. This system is designed solely to protect and ensure maximum corporate profits by ensuring that the corporations which are members of the cartel have no competition.

American workers aren't even competing with cheap foreign labor. The system is rigged to eliminate American labor from consideration, and it is doubtful that foreign workers willingly work 70 and 80 hours a week for only a few dollars a day. The savings in labor cost is NOT passed on to the consumer, but is used only to increase corporate profits.

Our education system does need fixing. However, NCLB and RTTT schemes will only make things worse. In fact, their failure is designed to provide a plausible excuse for the corporate PTB as to why they need to hire more foreign engineers and scientists. Blame the victims.

In another post, you complained that American students no longer want to take the difficult courses to become engineers and scientists, but rather pursue degrees in business and "become millionaires".

I worked in technical areas for many years and noticed that most of the bosses had business degrees, not engineering degrees. The people who ran things, got the bonuses, the promotions, and the big bucks almost all had business degrees. The technical types got scraps.

If businesses have trouble finding graduates in engineering and science, it is because young people have wised up to how corporations treat technical workers, and have figured out that it isn't worth it. Moreover, as another poster pointed out, in this failed economy, there are lots of competent unemployed engineers and scientists looking for work. The problem is that corporations don't want to pay them a wage appropriate to their education and experience.

[Union Yes]

28. It would take total reform of our anti-worker "Free"Trade laws..

and re-enactment of tariffs. Also, strict regulation or an outright ban on American corporations using foreign labor to manufature goods then 'reimporting' said goods for sale in US stores.

A ban of reimportation would require total reform of trade law.

Tariffs and a government with the courage to enforce them could level the playing field as far as labor cost.

I just don't ever see anything like this happening. Not with a corporate owned Dem party.

[hack89]

30. So you think that America domestic consumption can carry the economy?

because what happens to all those American jobs dedicated to producing export goods when the rest of the world retaliates against us and imposes their own tariffs and import restrictions?

[Union Yes]

34. A government with the guts to restrict access to America's markets.

If a foreign government wants to play that game, then America could answer by banning access to our markets. If they want access to sell their goods in America then they can play by our rules.

Again, this would require more guts than our government is capable of ATM.

[hack89]

37. But how could America sell goods in China for example

if they were more expensive due to higher labor costs?

[Union Yes]

39. A new concept on this planet- International labor and worker rights standards.

With America's financial clout, we could have a lot of negotiating power. If our government had the spine that is.

[hack89]

42. Why do you assume that the rest of the world will come up to our level?

China and India certainly have no incentive to raise worker salaries to US standards without a corresponding increase in their economies. It would be economic suicide.

Are you saying we should coerce them with the threat of economic or military force?

[Elwood P Dowd]

41. China already has high tariffs and a 20-30% VAT on most American goods.

They also subsidize their export manufacturers and manipulate their currency, making it impossible for us to compete. If we lowered our wages it wouldn't matter to them. Why do you think our current account with them is so skewed in their favor?

[Greyhound]

77. How do you think China was built? n/t

[Greyhound]

76. Is there a thoroughly debunked reich-wing myth that you do not both buy and try to sell?

Labor cost in manufacturing is insignificant to end-price, there are only thousands of studies showing this all over academia, yet the myth persists.
:eyes:

[hack89]

79. If you say so.

Somehow I doubt it.

[Greyhound]

82. Your "belief" is not required, only the ability to read. n/t

[avaistheone1]

50. +1000

[Greyhound]

74. BS, gamesmanship has replaced actual information and facts.

The numbers are not so important as how they are counted. A personal example, every computer, printer, laptop that HP sells in other nations gets counted as an "export". Problem is that HP does nothing and has nothing here in the U.S., the entire company is outsourced so HP makes absolutely nothing, yet is an "exporter" and a "domestic" corporation.

The rules have been so skewed for so long that we have replaced the world with a temporary illusion, and we accept the illusion as the real world.

[Junkdrawer]

81. Manufacturing Numbers: How Inaccurate Statistics Conceal U.S. Industrial Decline

From 1988:

http://epi.3cdn.net/e148ce62b375423513_n1m6b0fzh.pdf

[Sisaruus]

16. I work for a food bank.

I can't even begin to tell you how many times when I'm out and about in a shirt that identifies the food bank, people who are working (the woman at the supermarket register, the waiter in the restaurant, etc.) tell me that they have to use our food-assistance programs regularly. And plenty of people coming for help are former middle and upper middle income people withdrawing from their retirement funds, with the consequential tax penalties, decades too soon. I'm going to be in business for a loooooong time.

[Union Yes]

17. Thanks for sharing!

You brought up some very important points. The tax penalties of cashing out a retirement account early make it a total financial mistake. Sad that many are forced to decide, survive or get nailed with penalties. Plus wiping out retirement savings. Bad all around.

[leftstreet]

18. A banker manufactures nothing but makes a good wage

Why can't a janitor?

:shrug:

[area51]

19. Yes,

"How are people supposed to save for retirement when they are paid the Walmart/Mcdonalds/Home Depot wage?"

And though you touched on it, how are people supposed to save for retirement if we can go bankrupt due to one illness, since health care isn't a basic human right in the U.S.?

Every day, 273 people die due to lack of health care in the U.S.

We need single-payer NOW.

[Union Yes]

21. I couldn't agree more.

Thanks for posting that!


I'm a Pro-SP cat.

:fistbump:

[bobbolink]

23. Given that you list all these things, WHY won't "progressives" now take Housing Subsidies seriously?

Why are people like me living in our cars because creating the necessary low-income housing isn't important?

I really would like for someone to answer that seriously.

[bobbolink]

38. Nobody willing to reply, eh? Why am I not surprised......

THAT is why the "safety net" is shredded.

[Lorien]

46. How many Progressives represent us in DC?

Kucinich? Grayson? Sanders? Not enough. Until Liberals and Progressives vote for those who take ACTION on their behalf instead of those who wear the label but work for the elite nothing will Change.

[bobbolink]

49. Until YOU begin pushing for relief from poverty, NOTHING will change.

YOU consider everything else so much more important, and THAT is the problem.

I was working for Kucinich's campaign in '04, when he put out a "survey" to find out what his supporters considered most important. Poverty came in dead last, so of course it was junked.

That is ALL OF YOU who are determining what gets the attention!

Your reply to me was quite insensitive, and given what I am dealing with now, it was quite hurtful.

Not that I expect it to matter.

[Leftist Agitator]

66. nevermind

[Union Yes]

43. Democrats are too busy warmongering and bending over for corporate America.

They're currently not a party of the people. I don't know if we can change that in the next election cycle or if Dems will even hold their majorities. I'm voting Dem in this next election but it may be the last time I do vote Dem. They've clearly become a corporate owned party. If that doesn't change, I'll go find a left wing third party.

I hope this upcoming election will be a more progressive congress. We may even be able to sway the senate but who knows.

Biggest problem stopping progressive legislation from moving forward is the Senate. Until that changes, nothing else will.

Hope is all I got left. I'm running out of that.

Stay safe Bobbo. I hope you find a place to live soon.

Peace
UY

[bobbolink]

44. Once again, I'm not talking about the PARTY. I gave up on the PARTY long ago.

Its the people..."progressives", people who, when pushed, say they care.

But, the truth of the matter is, they won't bother to even learn the simple facts.

They USE us.

[Union Yes]

47. It's frustrating..

and I'm out of answers. I'm no longer able to defend the Democratic Party. They've been pretty good on trying to extend unemployment benefits, but beyond that have done next to nothing to address poverty, homelessness etc.

They could seriously address those issues by reformong trade and bringing jobs back home so that folks like you can find a good paying job and earn a living capable of keeping a roof over your head.

If they only gave a fuck.

[bobbolink]

48. #1---YOU ALL are the "party" I keep trying to make it clear that untill

YOU start pressuring, absolutely NOTHING will happen.

Even though I kept saying it wasn't the "party", you replied about the "Party", so now that I have made it clear I consider all of you to be responsible for making changes, I'm willing to bet I will get the ire of all of you. What else do I do....quietly lay down and die so as not to disturb all of you?

#2-- Please, Pleeeeez, PLEEEEZ, get the notion of "the working poor" out of your heads. That is one more divide-and-conquer meme that I have been commenting on incessantly.

There are many of us, many right here on DU, who are too old or tooo sick or too injured to work. Could you please remember us and not only concentrate on JOBS?

I am sorry to have to get so ..... FIRM about it, but if I say it any other way it just doesn't sink in.

Now, what are YOU going to do to begin to make things better for people like me? And I am talking about JUSTICE, not Charity!

Thank you.

[JanMichael]

57. Question: Other than housing vouchers and monthly disability checks -

"There are many of us, many right here on DU, who are too old or tooo sick or too injured to work. Could you please remember us and not only concentrate on JOBS?"

I get that this is a major problem - SERIOUSLY I GET IT.

What is YOUR solution? YOU know better than I.

Bigger monthly SS/SSI/SSD checks? Or bigger rent (Housing Choice/Section 8/ Housing First/TBRA) vouchers? Or just free public housing units (I.E. dismissing the common minimum $50/m payment) with no utility charges regardless if one has the AC on at full blast and the windows open and no maintenance charges a free computer and free WiFi?

What is YOUR solution? What would make you NOT Homeless? What would make it possible for YOU to not be Homeless? WHAT?

PS - I hate using all caps for emails and posts but I think you like them so I used them.

[bobbolink]

70. Are you pushing for either one of those things?

[JanMichael]

71. Yes. Damn near all of them not just one or two of two.

You didn't answer my question however.

What would it take to make YOU not homeless?

[bobbolink]

72. what are you doing? This needs a huge national effort. Its not a popular cause.

BTW, you may have noticed the ugliness that permeates DU. You may have noticed, if you indeed do push for these things, that poverty isn't at all popular, and those of us caught in this mess are more likely to get criticised than care about.

I have been trashed and, yes, stalked, at DU.

So, don't come to me with personal questions. It is not appropropiate on this forum.

The fact remains that people either need more money to live on, or more subsidized housing, neither of which is on the radar of DU. You can work to change that.

[JanMichael]

75. Just like you I'd rather not say exactly on a public board.

However my question doesn't have to seem personal.

What I'm really asking is what do you think, YOU, would help someone that is a similar situation of homelessness not be homeless?

I'm not talking about short term fixes (basically bridges to housing that end) either like 2 year vouchers or new HUD programs like the HPRP (homeless rapid recovery program something or another) grants.

What then would it take to get a fictional single person who is homeless (without family or friend options) and either cannot work or is disabled into decent permanent housing? What additional resources would need to be included other than shelter or a voucher? Food? Transportation? Utilities? House-cleaning? Clothing? Entertainment?

Is co-housing the answer? Are dorm-like apartments the answer? Are there a million answers and none?

This is a serious question. What direction should affordable housing financing (federal and local), SS and SSI, and homelessness prevention programs take?

[bobbolink]

78. A decent house is, of course, the answer,

It seems quite ridiculous to me that I would have to say this on a "progressive" forum.

Lets put it this way... how would YOU like for your mother to live out the rest of her life? In a goddamned DORM?

It really doesn't take much to think this through. Maybe a heart.

[JanMichael]

80. What about utilities; what about food; what about maintenance?

And why a house? I live in a rented two bedroom apartment.

"a house" is too simplistic of an answer as it ignores the rest of a persons needs. Only a person with no heart would think it was.

[southernyankeebelle]

51. I have know many that have been working in low wage jobs for years. Now

the middle class are see what the working poor have been struggling through for years. My son lives in a double wide trailer next door to us. All he has to pay is his electric and water bills. He can hardly do that because he has to pay over $400.00 per month for terrible health insurance. He pays in one month what I almost pay in a year. He has to pay that on a cook wage. His ex wife moved back in with him. She is getting unemployment and was getting food stamps to help. Now they stopped that. She is going to school to get a degree in asst nursing. Hopefully once she graduates she will get a job. I pray this isn't going to turn out like Greece.

[Union Yes]

55. It's a shame when work can no longer keep a roof over our heads.

Sad how it's come to this in America.

[unabelladonna]

52. remember NAFTA?

...and al gore spouting off on TV that there will be re=training for the newer service jobs which were to be created?
i remember and that's why i never trusted him. he is a corporatist in populist clothing.

[Dappleganger]

56. +1

NAFTA is what killed US manufacturing. Never forget it.

[Union Yes]

58. I remember the NAFTA fight well. Unions were about the only organization that opposed it.

Nafta has undone America.

Killed the middle class.

Created more poverty.

[JanMichael]

59. I wasn't in a Union but I did protest NAFTA.

A couple of small events and several nasty arguments in PoliSci classes but sadly other than armed revolt that bill was going to pass.

[Elwood P Dowd]

60. The corporate lobby outspent unions 10-1 during the NAFTA fight.

While NAFTA itself didn't kill the middle class, NAFTA style philosophy took control of our politicians, corporations, and media. NAFTA opened the floodgates, and the race to the bottom poured out.

[troubledamerican]

62. The Long Emergency

Some regions of the country will do better than others in the Long Emergency. The Southwest will suffer in proportion to the degree that it prospered during the cheap-oil blowout of the late twentieth century. I predict that Sunbelt states like Arizona and Nevada will become significantly depopulated, since the region will be short of water as well as gasoline and natural gas. Imagine Phoenix without cheap air conditioning.

I'm not optimistic about the Southeast, either, for different reasons. I think it will be subject to substantial levels of violence as the grievances of the formerly middle class boil over and collide with the delusions of Pentecostal Christian extremism. The latent encoded behavior of Southern culture includes an outsized notion of individualism and the belief that firearms ought to be used in the defense of it. This is a poor recipe for civic cohesion.

The Mountain States and Great Plains will face an array of problems, from poor farming potential to water shortages to population loss. The Pacific Northwest, New England and the Upper Midwest have somewhat better prospects. I regard them as less likely to fall into lawlessness, anarchy or despotism and more likely to salvage the bits and pieces of our best social traditions and keep them in operation at some level.

The successful regions in the twenty-first century will be the ones surrounded by viable farming hinterlands that can reconstitute locally sustainable economies on an armature of civic cohesion. Small towns and smaller cities have better prospects than the big cities, which will probably have to contract substantially. The process will be painful and tumultuous. In many American cities, such as Cleveland, Detroit and St. Louis, that process is already well advanced. Others have further to fall. New York and Chicago face extraordinary difficulties, being oversupplied with gigantic buildings out of scale with the reality of declining energy supplies. Their former agricultural hinterlands have long been paved over. They will be encysted in a surrounding fabric of necrotic suburbia that will only amplify and reinforce the cities' problems. Still, our cities occupy important sites. Some kind of urban entities will exist where they are in the future, but probably not the colossi of twentieth-century industrialism.

http://www.energybulletin.net/node/4856

[AdHocSolver]

63. Manufacturing is the only economic activity that produces wealth.

Those who argue that the U.S. has merely to increase its exports to improve the economic situation do not understand economics. The same criticism holds for those who say we merely have to increase manufacturing output to 15 percent of GDP.

What needs to happen is that 80 percent of the everyday purchases of manufactured goods that Americans BUY must be manufactured in the U.S. by American labor. When the money spent on clothes, shoes, electronics, toys, tools, hardware, appliances, and similar goods goes to pay other Americans for their labor, then that money circulates within the U.S. providing jobs and income to other Americans, who in turn, spend their income to buy the goods and services we produce.

Money spent on imported goods just leaves the U.S. and increases our debt, and the debt is devaluing the dollar resulting in a creeping, hidden inflation.

An economy is a circulation system and the money spent on imported goods is leaving the country and being replaced by a pile of debt.

Claiming that Americans should retrain for new jobs is ludicrous. The people in China and India can retrain for those jobs just as easily, and they still will work at lower pay. Why would China bother to buy our exports when they can make the same items for less money?

Moreover, China didn't "steal" American jobs. Most of the Chinese factories were set up by U.S. corporations precisely to take advantage of cheaper labor.

The only solution is to take the profit out of offshoring jobs, and make it possible for companies who want to use American labor to compete with imports.

There are two ways to accomplish this. One is to impose import quotas and tariffs on foreign made goods. Another is for American consumers to "buy American" and let retailers know that you want them to make U.S.-made products available in their stores if they want your business.

Those who advise increasing exports to help the economy are spouting supply side economics. It won't help, and it ignores the real problem which is too many imports.