Why do people change like this?

[TheMightyFavog]

From this:

to this:

to this:

[Captain Hilts]

1. Well, they're all men. So, that hasn't changed. nt

[mike_c]

2. ouch....

Touche. :rofl:

[William Z. Foster]

8. there may be something to that

I wonder if maybe we pay too little attention to sexism and racism. Maybe those have a much more powerful influence over the discussion here than we imagine.

I often think that the "ideology" we are up against, from both parties and on every issue, is "whiteguyism."

From attacking the Greek protesters, to attacking the immigrants, to justifications and apologies for the owners and the bosses, there is something familiar about the style and rhetoric people are using - be they nominally conservative or liberal, Republican or Democrat. It is the voice of the dominant white male Europeans, the style and the thinking and logic of that group, the world view, the ideas about leadership and organization, about power and dominance. It is the voice of power - condescending and mocking, swaggering and belligerent, the voice of those accustomed to being in the driver's seat, to getting their way and running the show everywhere. The voice of the boss, landlord, and owner. The voice of white northern European males.

[Captain Hilts]

12. It's interesting that the OP omits the women's rights and Civil Rights movements

from the photographs. Or do they assume that women in the women's rights movement did not go conservative? Yes, many did, such as Jeane Kirkpatrick.

The anti-war movement was all male and mostly white. Therefore, it's more important.

Not a dig at the original poster, who is obviously thoughtful, but a criticism of the 'popular' memory of the era.

[miscsoc]

82. not sure that it was all male although it was no doubt mostly white

and mostly male, and mostly pretty upper middle class.

[William Z. Foster]

86. the mentality

Over the years, people have been allowed on a probationary basis into the male WASP club - women, Catholics, Irish people, Jewish people, Italian people and Greek people (though we seem to be going backward on that one lately) and now people of color. Some day, perhaps GLBTQ folks will be admitted. Always, only a few are admitted and must endure second class membership, and always this is then held up to "prove" that "see, we are not sexist and racist! There is nothing wrong with the system!" Too often, one of the conditions of the probation is that people adopt the mentality, the attitudes of the dominant group - straight WASP males - and defer to that group and do or say nothing that would unseat that group from privilege and power.

There is certain set of ideas about the way things get done, the way things should be organized and structured, about leadership and groups that we accept as merely the way things are. But they are the methods of the colonialists and perpetrators of genocide, the so-called titans of industry, the imperialists and the exploiters. The methods, the attitudes, the style, the concepts of leadership and organization are not neutral and they are not the only way that things could be done. They are merely now the dominant methods - enforced at gunpoint to this day - and they originated from and serve the dominant social group.

Almost everyone in the country, not to mention the planet, is excluded from the elite club, the circles of power, to at least some extent, yet here we all are at DU, being such progressives, not being able to read a single solitary thread without someone aggressively defending the exiting social arrangements and conventions.

We cannot talk about poverty without someone claiming that we are calling for rich people to be persecuted. We cannot talk about sexism without someone piping up "yeah but what about guys, we have it rough too and you are making generalizations and painting with a broad brush!" We cannot talk about homophobia without having to hear about how much "we support your cause, and how dare you say otherwise?" We cannot talk about racism without having to hear about "reverse racism" and how "it goes both ways."

[Kitty Herder]

19. Yes.

"Whiteguyism" = entitlement and bullying

(Do I really need to add the disclaimer that not all white men behave that way?)

[lukasahero]

34. "Do I really need to add the disclaimer"

Well, it's Saturday, so probably not. BUT! Post this during the week and I suspect you'd be sliced and diced halfway to Tuesday by now. ;)

[William Z. Foster]

87. yes

If anyone doubts that there is anything to this, simply observe. Nothing elicits a more violent and aggressive response than talking about this does.

How can any of us fail to see the pattern?

Those arguing that it is not true that social domination is an issue, that it is something that permeates all of our social relationships, that it is exactly what we need to challenge, will then do everything they can to dominate the discussion - swaggering, bullying and attacking.

Those denying that a particular group has most of the power will always be found ridiculing or attacking the least powerful in any situation - women, people of color, poor people, the workers - and apologizing for and defending the most powerful - men, whites, straights, the wealthy, the privileged.

Of course they don't need to care whether or not their arguments are transparent, whether or not we see through the arguments. After all, they have the power. Point that out, and they will deny that power has anything to do with anything and say that this is all in our imaginations.

[William Z. Foster]

27. control, power, domination

I don't think the problem is greed, or lust for money. In our system money means power, control, dominance over others, social status and clout. That is what people are going for and wealth is the tool for gaining those things.

When we look at it that way, we can see the connection between social dominance and the drive for wealth, and make sense of relative wealth and income being used as an indicator for social inequality. Now suddenly white supremacy and male dominance are in a context that can lead us to a broader and more powerful analysis of political and social and economic issues, and we can also understand why the economy is the way that it is and why so many here - Democrats supposedly - defend the system so vigorously.

Many Democrats smugly assume we are "beyond all of that" - examination and analysis an discussion of sexism and racism - and they also want to leave issues of power and wealth out of the mix as well - that haves versus the have-nots. By doing that they have declared almost everything of importance in politics to be off-limits. We even see sneering ripostes often - "yeah, yeah it is all whitey's fault" or "yeah, sure men are evil, blame it all on them" or "we have all heard that radical rhetoric that blames the rich for everything." But that voice itself, with the sneering, condescending, belligerent and arrogant remarks, is itself the voice of the boss, of the overseer, of the owner, and it is also the voice of the male European colonial manager and conqueror. Who is it that sneers at that? Overwhelmingly white, male, and as often as not they are themselves actually bosses, landlords and owners.

(Note: obviously this is not intended as an indictment of ALL white males, nor of all successful people. Rather it is a discussion about power and wealth in society, who has it and who does not and how and why.)

[jtuck004]

14. Rosa Parks, Carly Fiorina, Sarah Palin. Not saying much for their achievements. n.t..

[Forkboy]

3. Money, comfort, and a full belly.

[Jennicut]

4. What was the real % of the kids protesting back then? I don't think it was all the babyboomers.

Some protested. A lot stood on the sidelines and became like my parents, Reaganites.

[Captain Hilts]

5. Actually VERY small. GOOD question. nt

[KonaKane]

36. It was quite small. But it impacted the thinking of many.

Opposite of what you have today, with very large demonstrations that don't seem to sway the mainstream opinion. This is the main reason I believe that demonstrating doesn't work anymore.

[reggie the dog]

37. my dad is a unionist reganite who now is a democrat

he had to go to vietnam, which he considered johnson's war, and was pulled out early by Republican Nixon and became a repub up until kerry ran

[Iris]

67. that explains a lot

the early Republican Nixon part. My dad was a union man and one of the only people he knew who consistently voted Democratic. I never understood how anyone in a union could vote Republican

[William Z. Foster]

57. it is always a small percentage

Politics is always driven by small factions competing for the attention of the public. Hyper-partisan loyalists from both of the two major parties want to present themselves as 50% of the population, give or take, and then ridicule and dismiss anyone who is not loyal to the party above all. But it only seems like half of the people support the neo-cons and Religious Right and the other half of the people support the DLC because there are no other choices.

[RandomThoughts]

6. It takes much training to change a person like that.

I like the other training better, love and kindness.


The thing is, the movie with Gecko in it, actually was about greed being bad.

But there was such celebration of wealth first, that many people began to see it as a singular goal thinking it could bring happiness, and in that it sets up the hierarchy needed for those with money to have control.

Since once money is the only thing that matters, then people with money can rule unfettered by morals or thought or even feeling, since people below them are trained.

Then using the saying "It is just business" whenever they think something is actually wrong.

[Tansy_Gold]

7. You're not following the same people from "This" to "That"

Many of those who opposed the war in 1963, 1965, 1968, 1970, etc., continued to oppose the wars that followed. And there were plenty of warmongers in 1963, 1965, 1968, 1970, etc., who cheered on the invasions of Panama and Grenada, Gulf War 1 and Gulf War II and Afghanistan and Yemen and Pakistan and wherever.

There were plenty who wanted to drop nukes on Hanoi and get it over with, just as there were those who wanted to nuke Baghdad and get it over with.

If anything has changed at all, it's the media.



Tansy Gold

[Captain Hilts]

15. Many were just wealthy, selfish government haters who stayed that way. nt

[Tansy_Gold]

24. Not to be rude, but you're painting with a broad and often wrong brush

I don't know how old you are, so I'm not going to presume your attitude comes from any particular time-frame, but I at least can speak from the experience of being a boomer, of having a father, father-in-law, and two uncles who served in WW2, of having a husband in the USN 1966-1970, and a brother-in-law who spent 14 months at Da Nang.

Vietnam was less than 20 years from WW2, and that was the "universal" war experience of our parents' generation. The US that had liberated Europe and stopped Hitler and Tojo was in its ascendancy, and "we" could do no wrong. For many, therefore, Vietnam had to be a just war because they didn't have any real experience of anything else. The reality of how unjust Vietnam was didn't come to light until long after the war had started. So those who protested it were naturally in a minority, and few of us can make a career of protest. After the war began to wind down and then ended in an ignominious defeat for the US, the media chose not to dwell on it.

Gulf War I was supposed to lay the ghosts of Vietnam to rest with a resounding victory, and to a certain extent it did that. But it was over quickly -- and much of the anti-war sentiment over Vietnam had come about because the conflict dragged on and on and on with no end in sight. (Sound familiar?) -- and there was no time for the protests to gain momentum.

And if you remember, there was enormous national support for both the Afghanistan and Iraq invasions in the wake of 9/11. Dan Rather was ready to line up and follow boooosh wherever he led. So were some DUers.

But support for a war and support for the government in general and corporate greed are all three separate issues, and you'll likely find there are people who support the war but don't support the government, some who support the government but not the war, some who defend greed but don't defend the war, some who defend greed AND defend the war. There are those who believe the US of A can do no wrong, that our nation is charged by God and protected by His angels to make war on the unbelievers, the heathens, the barbarians, and bring them to Christ. There are those who don't give a rat's ass about God but believe it's all about making a profit.

And then there are many who don't know the difference.



Tansy Gold

[Captain Hilts]

30. I, too, have Vietnam-era memories and kin that served. The troops you refer to aren't

in these photographs.

Dad, uncles were in WWII. My brother was in Thailand for Vietnam and some of my close friends were in combat.

But a lot of folks learned to distrust government in the '60s and never let that go.

[RKP5637]

20. We need Walter Cronkite back!!! Doing the nightly news, telling the real truth, and

the return of real journalism, not this tabloid dumbed down crap we have today... the worthless corporate controlled media by a handful of mega-corporations spouting for the most part propaganda.

[bobbolink]

23. Nope, need the draft back.

UNIVERSAL SERVICE FOR ALL.

It was the threat of being drug into it that brought out the crowds.

[RKP5637]

26. Yep! I was also just thinking about this more a bit ago. Not faulting the OP,

but I also think this comparison is Apples to Oranges. We had a lot of people in the 60's my age that were just like the teabaggers today. They were uptight and did not question the war, very establishment, very patriotic and all, etc., etc.

What you said is quite correct, a lot of those protests back then were driven by the threat of the draft. I agree with UNIVERSAL SERVICE FOR ALL.

[bobbolink]

69. "a lot of those protests back then were driven by the threat of the draft"

Absolutely. Along with priviledge comes responsibility.

I have spoken with young people about this, and although it is a scary thought to them, they begin to understand that war isn't something disconnected from them.... that they have a responsibility to this country to either serve, or to stand up against war.

I think we all need to be speaking more to these young people, because they have not had this presented to them in this way.

[Captain Hilts]

31. BINGO. Now we have an economic draft. nt

[bobbolink]

48. EXCELLENT! "Economic draft"!! very good. May I quote you?

:yourock:

[reggie the dog]

53. economic draft my ass

poor people can just stay home and work a civilian job, or collect welfare, or sell drugs, they do not have to go to war, they chose to take the risk of being killed for money as a soldier over the risk of going to jail for selling marijuana. it is their choice. If i were forced to chose between growing weed and selling it and going to war i would choose the illegal weed growing and selling as it is far more moral than killing people. Keep in mind that one of my good friends is a soldier, he was in no way "drafted" he just wants to defend his country, we disagree about how to do that but I do not judge him as a person for joining the military.

[tabasco]

33. Exactamundo.

No deferments for rich boys either.

No crooked ways for people like George AWOL Bush to jump in front of other to get into a non-deploying Guard unit.

Under those conditions, I strongly support universal service, for a number of reasons.

[reggie the dog]

42. I dont need a deferment

I have an MA, i left the USA and would encourage anyone else with an MA to do the same to avoid a draft. An ma pretty much opens the door to immigration in any country. sorry but middle class educated people like me will always find a way out of the draft, uneducated folks, like my own brother, would have a hell of a time. I am opposed to universal military service. I will NEVER, NEVER NEVER fight a war for ANY government EVER! No country is worth losing my blood or life defending, all countries I have ever been in exist to help THE ELITE FUCK OVER THE WORKERS! I will never fight for such a cause. I would just as soon move to another country if some real assholes tried to invade the usa or france.

why force long haired guys like me to have to get a shitty crew cut?

why force young men and women to become soldiers??? boot camp trains you how to be a cold blooded killer, do we really want more cold blooded killers running around?

why force women into an army where rape is common?

there is NO DRAFT WHATSOEVER TODAY and it should stay that way.

Dont give me bullshit about an economic draft. Any poor person or person going into the military for college money could make just as much by either WORKING A CIVILIAN JOB, or growing and selling marijuana or selling cocaine. (yes i know it is risky to sell drugs but less risky than going to war)

[Tansy_Gold]

45. ITA

:yourock:

[Captain Hilts]

51. Civilian jobs don't offer healthcare. nt

[reggie the dog]

54. move to a country that has it for everyone

once you get an MA moving to canada is easy, so just study and move away from the usa, or SELL DRUGS TO PAY MEDICAL BILLS. I know, I have family who buy weed a hundred pounds at a time, friends who buy 10 pounds at a time, family who grows etc. cannabis is way easier and way more fun than war. It is so easy to make money in weed that i cant understand why people would go to war.

[Captain Hilts]

59. No moving to Canada or getting a job there isn't that easy. I'm working on a phd there. nt

[reggie the dog]

60. I never said it was easy

if the goal is to not go to war we can imagine that the solution may be difficult.

[tabasco]

81. Why do you think universal service is just military service?

Your rant was a waste of time, especially for such an educated person, lol.

[bobbolink]

50. "Everybody in, nobody out"

Females, males, good grades, bad grades, rich, poor.

EVERY BODY SUIT UP!

[Name removed]

52. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[reggie the dog]

44. I would just fail the drug test

you have to pass a drug test to be a soldier, I smoke cannabis, I am unfit to be a soldier because I smoke cannabis. Unlike tobacco or alcohol users who can serve I cannot. Take that for your universal service bullshit. Once a draft starts and people realized that cannabis smokers did not have to serve you would see cannabis use go from the current 40 percent or so of young people up to nearly 100 percent. SMOKE CANNABIS, AVOID BEING DRAFTED!

[Andy823]

9. Simple

For some it's the lure of the big "money"! For others it's simply that they are easily brainwashed, and for others it's simply a matter of stupidity!

People are easily brainwashed, and those like Limbaugh and Beck know how to use hate to keep them that way. They know once they get them to listen by using things that they will target their weak points, then they can tell them anything and they will buy it with no questions asked! It happens all the time in politics, and religion. Play on the persons biggest fears and cater to that fear, then work them up with some good old fashioned hate, and you can pretty much control the way they think by planting things in their minds. Notice who Rush and Beck both say things like "I am not trying to say ____________ fill in the blank, "but", and then they go on and say in, but not directly. In high control religions they say things like "any 'real' christian can plainly see", then they go on to fill in the blanks. Those who want so hard to be "real" christians will come around to that way of thinking once it's repeated time after time.

There is hope, but that would mean the person would have to "stop" listening to those doing the brainwashing, and that's not easy to accomplish, not when it comes at them day after day on radio and TV, or place worship.

[rucky]

10. He follows the drugs. n/t

[earth mom]

11. Make NO Mistake: Teabaggers and Wall Street Gangsters NEVER protested any war

EVER in their lives.

You're talking about sociopathic assholes who don't give a shit about anyone but themselves. :puke:

[Captain Hilts]

13. Yes, some did. Look at the turn Jerry Rubin took. Folks learned to hate government in the '60s

and kept doing it.

[reggie the dog]

46. they should be anti war then

if they dont care about anyone but themselves why would they be willing to pay taxes to "help" people in irak or send their kids to die doing so?

[WCGreen]

16. there is a lot of self interest in each of your examples...

If there was still a draft don't you think the campuses would be teeming with anti-war marches...

Greed is a very personal emotion.

And grandpa Walrus doesn't want his money or his way of live to be put in jeopardy.

[Captain Hilts]

17. And it was WEALTHIER kids who went to college or could evade the draft. nt

[reggie the dog]

47. a draft would not get anti war marches, many of us are inelligible

college students know that you have to pass a drug test to serve in the military. if a draft comes up the nearly half of us that smoke cannabis have NOTHING to worry about. Our cannabis use makes us unfit to be soldiers, unlike during vietnam when they did not drug test soldiers. Why waste time with a protest march when you can just smoke a joint and get out of going to the war? college kids would just all start getting high on illegal drugs, fail the test, and let the good law abiding alcohol and tobacco smokers go do the fighting.

[RKP5637]

18. Not all of us changed! Most I know from the 60's and those times are

still the same. We never changed at all.

[gateley]

21. Fear and greed. They're poisonous. nt

[Duer 157099]

22. Learned helplessness and "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" n/t

[Bluenorthwest]

25. How does a set of pictures of different people

some fictional, no less, prove anything at all about people changing, much less 'like this'? The implication is that the man in the first photo IS the man in the last one. Is that the case?

How did Tokyo change into an ironing board?
It did not, there is Tokyo, and also an ironing board.

[William Z. Foster]

29. symbolic

Certainly, the social justice and left wing movement collapsed, and certainly the Democratic party and liberalism in general have moved far to the right. The pictures symbolize that shift, they are not intended to prove that the shift exists.

[Bluenorthwest]

58. I understand. I still do not agree

with the language of the title. This is simply a different subject from 'people changing like this'. But rather than argue that point, let me offer an interesting alternative view of a the first two photos, symbols that I see there. The second photo is of Gordon Gekko, a fictional character devised as an indictment of the shift in the nation toward greed. This character was a collaboration between two artists who marched against the war, much like the men in the first photo. Those two photos are highly connected indeed. The film was another, more complex form of protest against the machine that needs war. The second photo is also a form of political protest made by the generation protesting in the first photo. Both show people making intentional statements against the status quo.
I just look at stuff oddly at times. It was fun to think about, so thanks.

[William Z. Foster]

84. thanks

I see what you are saying.

[Journeyman]

28. These three had to have used Calvin & Hobbe's "Transmogrifier". . .

http://calvinandhobbes.wikia.com/wiki/Transmogrifier

[lukasahero]

32. What makes you think they did?

Seriously, do you really think the three guys in the first photo turned into the idiots in the last?

My guess is that those first 3 guys arestill out protesting the wars (you do realize protests ARE ongoing, right? There's one every single Friday in Concord, MA. Every. Single. Friday. Still.)

[county worker]

35. Another DU myth. Baby Bloomers all turned conservative.

Hey, I'm 64 next week. I'm trying to get a phone bank going to tell people what the progressive positions are on the November ballot.

No young people have volunteered to help yet!

We did more in the sixties than any generation since and many of us still are!

What do you do besides sitting behind your screen feeling superior and dumping on people?

[RKP5637]

39. Absolutely correct. A myth that somehow people get conservative when older.

Baby Boomers are conservative, people with money are conservative... all a myth. We have young ultra-conservatives today, young teabaggers, young and very greedy, the entire gamut.

[county worker]

40. We have very wealthy progressives in Santa Barbara in their 60's.

Louis Capos is a baby boomer. By the way Michael Douglas gave tons of money to preserve natural land here and keep open space where conservatives want to develop!

[RKP5637]

43. Yep, so true. I have some friends that are quite wealthy and about as progressive as one can get and

give a lot to help progressive causes. Also over 60.

[bobbolink]

55. The example you gave of Michael Douglas could just be self-interest.

Depends what else he does.

The environment is easy.... especially when he wants HIS view.

When he starts working for poverty issues, let me know.

[Journeyman]

61. Wrong man to question his motives and causes. . .

The Douglas Family has been active in progressive causes since Kirk Douglas worked his way up from poverty to become one of the biggest stars in Hollywood.

Kirk Douglas was instrumental in breaking the Blacklist, when he hired Dalton Trumbo to write the screenplay for Spartacus then insisted Trumbo be given screen credit.

Kirk and Ann Douglas recently dedicated the 400th playground they've built in the past few decades, most of which were built in inner-city neighborhoods. They are also extremely active in a host of efforts to alleviate the stifling effects of poverty and hunger.

But it's Michael Douglas you've questioned. He is a strong supporter of Robin Hood, Stand Up and Take Action, Free the Children, and Starlight Children's Foundation,* giving generously of his money, support, and time to all these organizations and more. He is an ardent supporter of numerous efforts to end poverty and hunger both in the United States and abroad, and offers his support, assistance, and financial backing to various programs seeking to eradicate disease and war.

And I found this after a 15 second search. Maybe a little effort instead of a lazy slur might be more useful.

(*Robin Hood targets poverty in New York City by finding and funding the most effective programs and partnering with them to maximize results; Stand Up and Take Action is a global movement to demand that world leaders keep their promises to end poverty and inequality; Free The Children is a children’s charity organization which builds schools in developing countries; Starlight Children's Foundation brightens the lives of seriously and terminally ill children in order to take their minds off the pain, fear and isolation of their illness.

[bobbolink]

64. I was going to thank you for the info, but when you call me "lazy", that is that.

Keep your personal attacks somewhere else.

[Journeyman]

66. A 15 second Google vs slurring a renowned progressive . . .

how else would you have characterized it?

[bobbolink]

68. The "slur" was in your own head.

If some of you "progressives" would actually get more active in poverty JUSTICE, and develop some sensitivity to the suffering, the whole country would be better off.

Instead of hearing the pain, you chose to go on the attack. Have at it, "progressive".

[Journeyman]

71. And still you avoid the issue. . .

yet find -- once again -- an opportunity to call people out for not supporting to your satisfaction your favored cause.

And what's with trying to make "progressive" a pejorative?

And as for your attempt to belittle my involvement with the cause of justice for the poor and sensitivity to suffering, let's face a simple fact: You haven't the wherewithal to know what highly-public people do in this regard, let alone what a very private person such as myself accomplishes. All you seem capable to do is spout . . .

[bobbolink]

72. Thank you so much for your concern so well expressed for poor and suffering people.

It is precisely this kind of insensitivity that has prompted MANY of us to recognize the lack of concern by "progressives". Its very obvious right here on DU, and you continuing to blast me shows others just what the atmosphere truly is.

What I *do* know is that Martin Sheen has done a lot to bring attention to homelessness, including being out on the street with homeless people. Steve Guttenberg has also made it his prime issue, and has opened a residential center for kids who have aged out of the foster system, which was what happened with my child, and one of the reasons why I have so much more appreciation for someone like Guttenberg, who took on a less-cared about issue, and fought for it.

Tell ya what.. you trade places with me, and live in my car for a while, as I am doing, and I'll live in your ocean area, and maybe then you'll see just what it feels like to make one statement about it being easy for a celebrity to put up money (like they have so little of it) to preserve an area that *he* wanted preserved in order to protect his view and his investment, and be labeled as you have labeled me. I said NOTHING "slur-like about him... I questioned how much of a big deal it was for him to do that. YOU are the one who is making me an ogre, while I live in my car, trying to get the rest of you to give one good god-damn.

And that is enough of this silly bickering about something that is supposed to be such a big deal to you, if you truly are a "progressive". If you can't open your heart and care just one little teeeny bit about someone who lives in her car and questions a star giving money out of his ownn self-interest, then maybe it is time for you to do a little soul-searching.

So, go ahead and rip me some more. I'm done with this petty crap.

[Journeyman]

74. And now you've confused me with the poster "county worker". . .

but what an unbelievable ego you exhibit: Question your understanding of simple facts and the ability to use basic internet tools, and you perceive it as an attack on all the poor and homeless. Thank goodness you're in the world to look out for the interest of them all. Without you, why, they'd probably be poor and/or homeless.

And now, as it's obvious you don't know anything about me (not even my name, let alone where I live or what I do in this world), and can't seem to keep yourself "in the moment," I think I'll spend my time with people capable of actually working together to solve the problems you seem only able to use for your own personal grudges.

What a poor life you seem to live. One that wouldn't be helped by any amount of money.

[bobbolink]

welcome to my ignore list.

anyone as insensitive and COLD as you are doesn't deserve an audience.

And, thanks for showing people just how COLD "progressives" can be.

Now, good bye...

[Journeyman]

80. And how will that differ from the clueless approach you took throughout this thread? . . .

[bobbolink]

75. dupe

[William Z. Foster]

85. it is

It is an attack on all poor people and homeless people.

Poor people and homeless people, by the way, not "the poor" or "the homeless." It is not some faceless mob, some condition or disease or something like "the runs" or "the flu" or "the plague."

This aggressive defense of wealthy people who are doing lovely things, and the ferocious resistance to examining people's thinking and attitudes is an attack on people, really on all working people.

What would knowing anything about you personally have to do with this discussion? It is some sort of weak and impotent and shallow liberalism or "progressive politics" that would have us credit wealthy people, or successful people, or people involved in various charitable activities, or people with a political hobby, or people working in the poverty industry, seeing them as some sport of paragons of moral virtue, while at the same time denying that attitudes and assumptions and premises have anything to do with any of this, and absolutely refusing, angrily refusing to look in the mirror. "I give to charity (or help the poor, or work with the poor, or give a lot of money) and that makes me a good person, so I have every right to disseminate every stereotypical and malicious idea about poverty and no one can dare challenges me, and I will defend the existing system and no one can counter that."

I think it is worse than that, and more of a "wolf in sheep clothing" situation. What is being vigorously defended here is the very system - the social conventions and arrangements and attitudes, the hierarchy and power structure - that is the root cause of homelessness and poverty.

How dare you ridicule someone speaking out for the people who are suffering the most by derisively saying "thank goodness you're in the world to look out for the interest of them all. Without you, why, they'd probably be poor and/or homeless." That is shockingly cruel and insensitive, and indefensible.

[county worker]

62. Geez! We were trying to get some open space by the ocean preserved and needed to raise

money to match what a preservation group gave. We could not come up with the money and he paid for it. Of coarse it is now named after him, but we'd do that for you if you paid for it.

You are the type that would look a gift horse in the mouth.

[bobbolink]

65. GGEEEEEEZ, your own self, and when you "type" people you are no different from the teabaggers.

Tell ya what, YOU live in poverty and be ignored, by such righteous "progressives", and be ignored year after year while "more important" causes are trumpeted, THEN we'll see just how typed YOU become.

Your compassion is ....underwhelming.

Go back to your ocean view.

[county worker]

73. Look man! I was a homeless person in San Diego.

Now I am not. I feel grateful and I am doing things to help get more progressive laws and congress persons. It takes putting people in power that can do something for the poor and that takes money.



So if I am better off than I was I am using my resources trying to make a difference. You on the other hand sit at your computer and curse the world. Some day when you are not so bitter maybe you can get off your pity pot an make change happen too. If you lived in my area I would ask you to join my phone bank coming up to help get more progressives in power and to defeat conservative initiatives.

You know what I do for a living? I work for the Alcohol,Drug and Mental Health Services dept of the County of Santa Barbara. I'm one the guys who makes sure we get all the money we can to help people in poverty.


What are you doing to help people in poverty?

If we got a bunch of people together who could really do something about poverty, would they be people who have money or people like you?

[William Z. Foster]

83. awful, simply awful

"People like you?"

Hardship seems to drive people in one of two directions. Either they are able to then see the larger picture and become more compassionate, or they see their personal escape from that hardship in very narrow terms, as a successful effort at reforming and improving themselves.

"You know what I do for a living? I work for the Alcohol, Drug and Mental Health Services dept of the County of Santa Barbara. I'm one the guys who makes sure we get all the money we can to help people in poverty."

Horrible, just horrible. That is so arrogant and condescending and self-serving, and can only contribute to the problems and can never be part of the solution.

[Blue_In_AK]

41. A lot of us didn't. n/t

[Uncle Joe]

49. Some of them didn't change, there is a common denominator among all of those pics.

That being self interest; whether it's survival as in the first pic, accumulating wealth in the second, or trying to protect what you have in the third.

Having said that, some people participating in anti-Vietnam War protests did so for idealistic or conscientiousness reasons, but that doesn't mean they all did.

Thanks for the thread, TheMightyFavog.

[The Wizard]

56. declining testosterone (NT)

[Odin2005]

63. They shot up too much of the bad acid.

[Alcibiades]

70. Wrong narrative

These people have been with us always. No way the guy in pic 3 was in pic 1.

Instead, he was somewhere else:



I'll say it before, I'll say it again: these are not ex-hippies: they are the John Birch people, the Goldwater people, the George Wallace people and the Reagan people. Same shit, different day.

[JI7]

76. there are many Liberals who turned to wall street whores, but the Fox News TEa Baggers were always

ignorant racists.

the wall street whores today benefit from ignorant tea baggers who want tax cuts that will cut programs for the tea bagging ignorant and give more to the wall street whore.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

77. Racism, sexism and classism, all working together.

To pit each group against another.

Angela Davis has written about how all this works together.

She also gives talks about the Prison-Industrial Complex which keeps the unemployed minorities off the streets by arresting them and convicting them for mostly nonviolent offenses. They have had their jobs taken away, so they sell drugs and resort to petty crime. And the rich folks at the private prison companies make money, just like the people who make money from war like Halliburton, Kellogg, Brown & Root.

[Tabasco_Dave]

78. It isn't just the baby boomers

I was friends with many Reagan hating punks in the 80's who turned into very conservative republicans.

[DatManFromNawlins]

79. Selfish assholes without money became selfish assholes WITH money

Wow, what a shocker.