The oil containmment vessel failed because of hydrates - here is what they are

[scentopine]

Many people predicted failure of the containment vessel because of hydrates. These are pockets of methane trapped in chunks of ice. This is a unique structure caused by the intense pressure at low temps in the deep ocean. As gas is release into a water environment of low temp and high pressure, this special kind of "ice" can form. It is lighter than sea water and will fill the containment vessel, increasing buoyancy, destabilizing the structure.

http://dravot.blogspot.com/2009/07/methane-hydrates-natural-hazard-or.html

This is a technical discussion, but it is very interesting and accessible and drives home why this oil leak will be very difficult to contain and why massive risks exist in any containment scheme.

Note that simply "heating" the structure is full of risk and a massive engineering challenge - the steel is a good thermal conductor and at the temperature of 2C at ocean bottom, you require a massive amount of energy to melt the accumulating ice. Maybe an anti-freeze or hot water delivery (electrical heating has risk of explosion). Either way this is a massive catastrophe. It is another epic disaster that will define a generation of reckless, destructive human activity from war, to wall street robber barons, human rights, mountain top removal, Chernobyl, to pollution.

We make choices every time we drive, buy some cheap plastic crap, eat shitty food, and vote for politicians who legislate for the rich and powerful and against everyone else. Mainstream political parties are doing nothing to stop the degradation of our standard of living.

The true cost of a Chevy Suburban is now known. A trillion dollar war, a million lives, and the Gulf of Mexico, hundreds of miles of Alaskan shore line.

Basically, Americans have traded these things for the equivalent of a few shiny beads and trinkets.

[cliffordu]

1. I wish I could pin this post at the top forever.

excellent.

[cdsilv]

2. So we're no smarter than the guys who traded manhattan for a few shiny beads and trinkets....

...what goes around comes around. Karma is one cold bitch.

[SwampG8r]

14. i have been saying for years

the indian casinos are karma in perfection
using the greed that victimized them to retake america one quarter at a time

[CaliforniaPeggy]

3. Giant K&R

Let's get this one onto the Greatest Page, people!

Damn.

We have sold our birthright for a mess of pottage...

[depakid]

4. Methane hydrate crystals:

[WillyT]

6. Yep...

:shrug:

[global1]

13. Can Methane Hydrate Crystals Be An Energy Source?.........

If I'm seeing this correctly - the methane hydrate crystals/ice is burning. Can we create methane hydrate crystals and use them as an energy source? Just asking?

[backscatter712]

15. We use that stuff in gas form.

It's called natural gas.

[flyingfysh]

23. it's in chunks all over the ocean floor

One of the problems of global warming is that some of these chunks start to evaporate, releasing more methane into the atmosphere and accelerating global warming.

[ThomWV]

25. No its not - it can't exist in that condition

It exists underground, or under the seafloor, but it can not exist directly in water or air. It is common off the coasts all around the country and its almost everywhere under the Tundra. Another place you find it, man-made in this case, is in hard bends in gas pipelines, where it can be a problem.

[jeff47]

52. Um....

"but it can not exist directly in water or air"

If that were true, then it wouldn't be a problem for the dome.

[ThomWV]

55. Not so

Look, all hydrates are is methane trapped in the matrix of frozen water that is ice. It forms under very specific conditions but it is not just chunks of ice laying all over the ocean floor. Buried under deep water sediment off shore and its is virtually everywhere under the tundra. As I mentioned above it also forms in the crooks of pipe lines if all the moisture isn't removed from gas that is being pumped under high pressure. This stuff has been well known for a long time and if there were a way to mine or drill for it virtually every utility in the country would be powered by natural gas - but so far there is no good way to retrieve it. But at any rate its absurd to say its just laying all over the ocean floor. There might possibly be some chunks exposed in some very deep trenches, but even that is mighty unlikely. We used to have some of the very first samples of it ever brought up by a drilling rig at a lab I worked at for about 20 years. We funded something on the order of $50~100 million in research on how to get to the stuff before Congress cut our funding for it.

[jeff47]

67. Ah, I see

You meant it isn't found in the open ocean.

[ThomWV]

77. Yep, that's it exactly

Some very deep water is normally at about freezing temperature but I'm not sure the stuff can exist in a slurry - I would think not but that would be way past my knowledge of the stuff. The amount of it under the seas and in tundra regions is staggering and if there was any way at all to get it out (without destroying the planet) it would be the fuel of choice for electricity production and of course the price of natural gas would drop to astoundingly low levels.

Think of it this way, imagine if you could strip mine ice in very cold areas, and you didn't have to dig down more than a few meters to find it. The ice itself would burn just like coal, but instead of leaving ash all it would leave would be fresh water (not particularly pure) and the exhaust gasses would be way way less toxic that you get from burning coal and the stuff is so abundant that it would sell for less than dirt. Of course like any other fossil fuel there is the carbon to deal with, but even it can be captured and sequestered, if one believes in such things.

[jeff47]

51. Sorta

The methane in them can be used just like any other source of methane (natural gas is mostly ethane and methane). It wouldn't be a new fuel source, just a whole hell of a lot of an old source.

There are several groups looking at ways to harvest the crystals off the sea floor, but it's rather difficult to do since the "ice" melts when you try to heat it or move it towards the surface.

[IDemo]

5. A little ironic that melting methane hydrates present a global warming danger

http://news.mongabay.com/2008/0221-methane.html

[flyarm]

7. Great thread , Thank You !! And yes indeed many warned that this would not work..

we heard it alot last week in Fla on our local news and newspapers!

And those of us on the Gulf Coast who saw it in our local news tried to tell many here on DU and we were insulted and screamed down...and you know the program..we are supposedly the "HATERS"..or whatever..and I just read from one damn ignorant poster on DU that we are .."Giddy"... that this did not work.

Seems truth and reality is a lost cause here at Du anymore!!

Well, I say Thank You scentopine
for truth!! and reality! and Thank you to all those that still live in a world that want and expect truth and reality!

fly

[Lost4words]

26. +1 nt

[malaise]

42. There are many trolls here at DU

doing the work for corporate lobbyists.

And yes this is a great thread.

[WeDidIt]

8. Even if they get past the problems with the containment vessels

The asphaltenes and parafins in the crude will clog any pipe they try to use to relieve the pressure on the containment vessel and the whole thing will fail any way.

Basically, they'll create a candle a mile below the surface of the Gulf.

[Strelnikov_]

9. The plan was a 'pipe in a pipe'. Heated water down through outer casing,

oil and water up through the inner.

The unit was in place, the next step was to connect the pipe.

Seems the Methane clathrate built up faster than they anticipated.

They are now probably trying to work out a scheme to start the heated water pumping prior to placing the unit over the pipe.

If you look at the vessel, there are pipes on the exterior. These are most likely to distribute the heated water around the inside periphery of the vessel.

[nebenaube]

10. I wish I didn't have to say this...

but get the nuke down there and seal it.

[grahamhgreen]

11. Unleash the Krakken? What if you blow a giant hole in the seabed?

[backscatter712]

12. Nukes aren't necessary...

Yes, this well needs to be stopped ASAP, but nuking it won't solve the problem.

To properly seal the well, they'll need to drill another hole, close to a mile deep, close to the well, and set the nuke off deep down. Otherwise, you're just making a big boom, contaminating the Gulf with nuclear fallout, and it might not even seal the well.

It takes time to drill that deep, and if that's what's needed, might as well drill a lot closer to the gusher, pump ANFO down there, and collapse the well with conventional explosives. Or follow BP's plan of drilling a relief well, so it can be capped that way.

Nukes won't really give us much that can't be done other ways, without making the Gulf radioactive...

[northernlights]

27. thank you.

for voice of sanity and knowledge.

[Jakes Progress]

46. But, but I saw them do it in a movie.

And it had Bruce Willis and everything.

[Rex]

17. That is the worst idea I've heard people passing around this board.

They don't even know what they drilled into and went down farther then they told anyone. You want to trust people like that with a nuke? No way.

[JCMach1]

21. Would a bunker buster, or several work here?

[flyingfysh]

24. the Russians claim to have done it

They said they used nukes to seal some blowouts

[NNN0LHI]

31. What happens if it just makes the hole bigger?

Then what?

More nukes?

Don

[whopis01]

63. not more - just bigger ones. n/t

[ipfilter]

70. Then we can try again in 100,000 years when it's safe to go back there.

[JDPriestly]

16. Does anyone have a better suggestion than the containment vessel?

The only thing I can think of is skimming the oil -- and that is too slow.

But then, what do I know? I'm asking people who know more than I.

[backscatter712]

20. The techniques that are known to work take too long.

The for-sure way to stop this well is to dig the relief well, which will lower the pressure and enable the well to be capped, but that could take months.

As far as interim solutions, there's improving the containment vessel, which is what they're trying now - figuring out a way to pipe hot water through the channels in the vessel while they're installing it, to prevent the methyl hydrate from forming.

The other tactic, IIRC, is to go into the well head, right at the damaged blowout protector, and inject debris into the well - pieces of rubber, golf balls, that sort of thing, to try to clog it up. The problem is that the plumbing's already damaged, likely to be eroded by all the sand that's in the oil, so if it overpressures and the pipes can't hold, kablooey, you've just made the problem a hell of a lot worse.

I wonder how feasible it would be to drill a second well, just a few hundred feet, so it theoretically wouldn't take so long, as close as possible to the damaged well, but not so close as to prematurely rupture and create another blowout. Pump ammonium nitrate/fuel oil down into this second borehole, send down a detonator, blow it up. In my out-of-my-ass theory, the explosion would collapse the well, and the collapsing earth and gravity would serve to seal it up.

[JDPriestly]

36. Thanks for the clear explanations.

Wouldn't drilling a second well, sending down a detonator and blowing the whole thing up create the risk of increased leaking? What if the earth and gravity should shot upwards?

I'm very interested because I used to live in Mobile. Dauphin Island was so beautiful back then. The sand was white and clean.

[paparush]

57. That is..if the relief well is built better than the original well. I guess they won't cut corners

on the relief well.

[greiner3]

59. "Does anyone have a better suggestion than the containment vessel?"

Take the CEOs, VPs and boards of all oil companies and shoot them into the leaks. Even if it does not slow down/stop the leaks the world will be a better place.

[Chisox08]

64. Can you shoot the bankers down there too.

[tango-tee]

18. K&R for a great OP.

Thinking of the destruction mankind has wrought...

[Greyhound]

19. K&R.

[annabanana]

22. Kicking for the good information. It's a pity that our media don't think

this is all that important for us Citizens to know....

[Myrina]

28. ... BP and all their 'scientists' didn't know about this possibility?

:wtf:

[SidDithers]

29. K&R for good information...

and yes, there is still a massive engineering challenge to try to make the containment work inclusive of the hydrates, or to prevent the formation of hydrates within the container.

The containment hasn't failed...yet, in spite of what some idiot DU'ers want you to believe.

ETA: http://www.wlox.com/Global/story.asp?S=12451357

USM Professor believes hydrates situation can be fixed

Asper said the gas hydrates causing issues with the containment box are precisely the phenomenon his group has been studying for 10 years.

He said his graduate student did his thesis on the rates at which methane is coming out of the sea floor at this site and built a gadget similar to a miniature version of the containment box to measure it. When he placed his gadget over a gas vent, it instantly filled up with hydrate ice.

Asper said you need four things to form hydrates:

* Gas (methane or similar)
* Water
* Pressure
* Cold temperatures

Asper said they have all of them at the leak site.

Dr. Asper said to combat hydrate formation, they'll need to remove one of them, which he said, "can be done, but it's not easy."

Sid

[BrightKnight]

61. Some kind of controlled exothermic reaction around the device

might remove the cold. Periodically Mix acid with water in a bladder around it. Essentially a low cost hot water bottle with no spark.

[Joe Chi Minh]

30. The true cost of a Chevy Suburban is now known. A trillion dollar war, a million lives, and the Gulf

of Mexico, hundreds of miles of Alaskan shore-line.'

Basically, Americans have traded these things for the equivalent of a few shiny beads and trinkets.'

Don't forget the mirrors. Looking at our faces in a wee mirror... flashing sunbeams.... What fun! Evergreen vote-winners in the 'developed' West. Hey! Ho! On with the motley!

[NNN0LHI]

32. Do you think these big honking Toyota SUVs run on wind power?

http://www.toyota.com/sem/suvs.html?srchid=K610_p208252298

[Capitalocracy]

37. Some of them roll over on wind power

Does that count?

Big K&R for the OP, btw

[Joe Chi Minh]

53. Far from it. But are you saying they're desirable?

[tabasco]

33. "The true price of a Chevy Suburban..."

Well said. The USA has become a wasteful, lazy society.

[Duchess]

35. You forgot stupid...

...to round out the American hat trick.

[niceypoo]

34. A little perspective

[geckosfeet]

38. And my guess is that this is what caused the initial explosion. The dangers were known.

Rotten bastards.

[mod mom]

40. "the dangers were known" sounds like criminal negligence to me.

:grr:

[Junkdrawer]

41. It's become the leading theory as to the cause of the initial explosion...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8297309

[alfredo]

39. We're not smart or wise, we are clever.

[caseymoz]

43. I think this is America's Chernobyl.

That is, a disaster that brings a whole socio-economic/political system into question. The difference is: unlike Chernobyl, we might not ever be able to contain this.

I'm afraid that as this disaster goes on, BP will face bankruptcy. Good thing there, but it would mean the government than has to come up with the solution, with the taxpayers footing the bill. Meanwhile, disruptions from BP will cause oil prices to rise, or will cause oil to become scarce.

That's not even considering the main problem: the environmental impact of this gusher going unabated. Like a cautionary doomsday novel, I could see Obama bringing in teams and teams scientist from all over the world to try to stop it with the plans getting more and more desperate.

The consequences of this will be global, and probably, though I hope not, fatal on a large scale. In a way there's a little justice. The most conservative states, the ones who saw the least use for environmentalism and the ones most taken with unfettered, self-regulated capitalism will be hurt first and worst. Even teabaggers might think again.

[liam_laddie]

44. The words "think" and "teabaggers" in same sentence

is oxy-moran-ical...:crazy:

[caseymoz]

50. delete

[caseymoz]

49. I meant think in the gerbil-sniff sense of the word.

They might just do that, and hopefully, it leads on to slightly more sophisticated processes. :)

[icee]

54. I think this is the end. When I said that Iraq was the US's Parthia I

had no idea that it would be a totally abstract event that would bring it down. I wonder if they'll pass out suicide pills in the end. I would like the cherry flavored one.

[caseymoz]

56. You're so right. Who would have thought it would be something so low tech/old world?

Like oil. Something we've been using for years, and which is natural and unprocessed. How could all the cautionary-tale novels and movies have ever missed this angle? I mean this is hardly like Ice-9 or worldwide nuclear fallout, or dropping a micro-sized black-hole into the earth.

It's not that bad yet, but if this is still leaking at this rate in 6 months, there's going to be tangible uneasiness, and economic disaster. If it goes on for a year, then doomsday scenario will become consensus.

[icee]

58. I'm simply repeating what my Ouija board told me.

[Whisp]

68. i'm in knots over it slipping into the Gulf Stream

I heard that its possible, that the stream ribbons around quickly to change positions and could grab the slick and take it for a ride.

anyone have more info or a link to this?

[caseymoz]

69. Of course that could happen.

The worst case scenarios here are absolutely grave. They are still just scenarios.

[piedmont]

71. Jesus, it's like no one's ever heard of the biggest blowout ever, also in the Gulf of Mexico...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ixtoc_I

Ixtoc I gushed more oil per day than Deepwater Horizon, and did it for 9 months, totaling 3 million barrels, or 126,000,000 gallons of oil. And yet we're still here.
I'm not saying this spill isn't a disaster, but let's have some perspective. At 5,000 barrels per day this spill would have to go on for 600 days just to equal Ixtoc I.

[caseymoz]

78. But what if BP is lying to us and the spill is more like this?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4375629

Five times what they are saying, judging by the spread of the spill?

What worries me is: I don't remember Ixtoc spreading over an area like this in such a short time, and for a while, BP's estimates were going up by the day, as though they were trying to ease us into accepting the bad news.

[earcandle]

45. "Shiny Objects" blind your eyes... a catchy tune!

Shiny Objects

[Uncle Joe]

47. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, scentopine.

[readmoreoften]

48. K&R. Except this "destructive human activity" has a name: capitalism.

This risky behavior was done for profit. It doesn't have to be that way.

[liberation]

60. Thank you...

... we're literally willing to trash our planet and lead ourselves to extinction in order to comply with abstract concepts such as "capital" and "profit."

The sun shines on our earth more energy on one single day, that we have consumed through all of our history. And yet, solar energy is not feasible... because it takes too long to amortize. As if there was some sort of universal banking account which nature gave two shits about.

In other words, we're polluting ourselves to death, because the sustainable and sane alternatives cost too many pieces of paper with funny pictures and arbitrary numbers on them. And/or because a few people with a lot of those pieces of paper with funny pictures and random numbers can't figure out how to make even more of those funny papers using clean energy, than they have figured out how to do by shitting where we drink from.

Just like during the health care debacle, we decided that the entitlement to profit by a few thousand top level executives in the health insurance industry was more important than the entitlement to proper care by the hundreds of millions of average Americans. We decided long ago, that the entitlement to profit by a few thousands of dirty energy executive was more important than the health of a world hosting billions of other humans. And the kicker is that, as I said earlier, "profit" and "capital" are purely abstract concepts. I.e. they only exist as a figment of human imagination.

We're truly a f*cked up species when we put ourselves through an honest evaluation.

[piedmont]

72. Yes, it could be done by a nationalized company and spill much more. nt

[leftstreet]

79. +1

[Jokinomx]

62. "The true cost of a Chevy Suburban is now known."

This statement says it all. We have a lot of growing up to do as a species if we expect to survive intact through this next century.

:toast:

[bertman]

65. Actually, it's a cute oversimplification. "The true cost of a Honda Accord is now known"

would do just fine to illustrate the point. The problem is vehicular traffic and our driving patterns, not just SUV traffic. A person who drives their SUV only as necessary and who plans his/her trips so they are not making unnecessary trips can use less fuel than an "economy" car whose driver drives wherever and whenever on a whim.

[scentopine]

66. For me, the Suburban marks a special trajectory in American history...

the quest for big "patriotic", macho vehicles, a metaphor for a special kind of American arrogance. America made a choice - we chose big, inefficient SUV's and trucks for daily commute to work and grocery chopping at the local strip mall. We chose this path with a huge amount of help from Madison Ave and 911.

After 911 it was like people thought buying a Humvee with leather seats was somehow showing support for troops who were getting slaughtered and dismembered in Iraq driving theirs. As Bill Maher once said - "just because you drive a ford expedition, it doesn't mean you are daniel fucking boone." I would have said something like "just because you drive a Humvee, it doesn't mean you are Sergeant Rock, in Iraq, protecting the homeland."

So, considering the massive US auto bailouts, what is GM pumping all their marketing dollars into? You guessed it - big fucking trucks. Non-stop commercials showing macho guys hauling big spools of wire and breaking horses with their trucks. Cracks me up that American men fall for that shit.

Both Honda and Toyota (not withstanding Toyota's current problems) pumped massive investment in fuel efficiency for vehicles here and in Europe. To compete with Japan and Korea, Detroit profits would have to be reinvested, new engineers hired and new jobs created, This would have resulted in less cash for executive pockets. In a brilliant move, Detroit marketed trucks as patriotic - therefore shunting any criticism of their products to ground. It was simply cheaper to sell an image than develop better vehicles.

I once had someone tell me "Of course we bought a Suburban ($30k, 18 MPG, urban driving), we have two kids"! While some may actually need a Suburban to haul giant spools of wire or oil drilling equipment, the Suburban will forever hold a unique place in American history as an icon for American foolishness.

[Kalyke]

73. Not true with Ford, however.

Ford's European line is well-respected, fantastically-engineered and fuel-efficient.
Ford is the best selling automobile line in England, as a result.

They also don't cost a gazillion bucks to fix IF they break down like foreign cars do and they still have a few - a precious few, but some - union shops in the United States. The profits come back here, as well.

[piedmont]

76. '68 Charger: 8-10 mpg. '70 Chevelle: 13-16 mpg. '69 GTO: 12-14 mpg

http://www.carsdirect.com/car-buying/muscle-cars-for-sale-a-buyers-checklist-based-off-mpg-and-reliability

What's been happening has been happening all along.

[backscatter712]

74. Think the new smaller dome has a chance?

BP's trying a new dome, a "top hat", and they're going to be pumping methanol into it as it sucks up the oil, which in theory should prevent the methane hydrate from forming.

[greencharlie]

75. one failed idea down... time to DRILL the relief well! nt