I've been to Europe

[MrScorpio]

I know for a fact that we would all be better off if this country were just a little bit more like the French, the Germans, the Dutch and the Scandinavians.

Less prone to violence, better educated, healthier, happier and more secure.

And guess what, we Americans live in a pervasive police state in comparison to the folks in those countries... That's right, we'd be a little FREER too!

Oh by the way, modern Europeans aren't addicted to a military industrial complex, imperial exceptionalism and HFCS.

Just taking those things out of the American equation would take us a very, very long way.

[CBR]

1. I went to the Netherlands to study housing policy in 2008... it

was depressing thinking about how horrible our system is in comparison.

[MrScorpio]

4. Hanging out with my Dutch in laws was quite the eye opener

Also, all the ex-GIs who were married to Dutch wives. NONE of them wanted to come back to the States.

Sometimes, I wish that I never came back myself.

[bobbolink]

19. Do the Dutch have a mandatory military service?

A woman who is a emigrant from the Netherlands and I were talking about this, and she doesn't remember. We are curious.

Thanks.

[tammywammy]

22. Conscription in the Netherlands

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_the_Netherlands

[Name removed]

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[dotymed]

55. Hang in there bobolink.

Think how great it would be in a country with a real security net. A place (like many in Europe, where homelessness is unacceptable. Smile honey.

[revolution breeze]

86. When I was in Paris in September,

there were homeless in so many doorways. My aunt said rents were out of control and the homeless population was growing exponentially.

[olegramps]

103. A small apartment in Paris or Rome (800 S.F.) will run you $600,000.00

And that is for dump. Probably without a kitchen appliances since the owners usually take those with them. I was amazed when I visited my niece in Paris at the cost of living.

[ooglymoogly]

127. Head to the south of France and other parts that are not Paris or the Riviera.

You have to compare Paris and Rome, in monetary terms, to NY city or SF or any other great city, Though I pick either Rome or Paris over any city in the, used to be, good ol' USA, now the USA of fascism. If my roots and commitments were not so deep, I would be in either of those places in a heartbeat and I have lived long in both. Beyond the ancient ruins and except for the sheer beauty of the place, there is not much if any glamor (as in Rome or Paris) in Greece, but that is a good bet to get the hell out of here to, and is a far simpler and a far cheaper life but there are many such places. The world is a banquet in fact. The US, sadly, no longer is and unless you are a fascist "(c)hristian", it is fast becoming a dangerous place to exist. There is another place I hanker for on the other side of the boot and across the sparkle of the Med.

[Maraya1969]

129. But you are comparing Paris with anytown USA. Compare it to New York

[JDPriestly]

122. The reason for the homelessness in Paris may be different than it is here.

Everyone wants to live in Paris. If you don't want to live there, it's probably only because you never have. (Well, I'll admit
I'm exaggerating a bit.)

When I lived in Paris, the authorities were struggling to limit the density of the population. They required you to have a permit to live in an apartment and limited the number of people living in each apartment. Landlords were pretty careful to comply with these rules. Rents were very high. You virtually had to have connections -- not political necessarily -- but friends with an extra apartment to get a place.

That sounds awful to Americans, but so many people wanted to live in Paris. It is an amazing place.

The restrictions on density are necessary but may be causing a shortage of apartments.

[AlbertCat]

125. That sounds awful to Americans, but so many people wanted to live in Paris.

And it's not like anything remotely similar goes on in say, NYC, or San Francisco.... or even Key West!

[JDPriestly]

140. It's very similar. Except there are usually no rules about how many people

can live in an apartment in the US.

I'm not certain that those rules still exist in Paris.

Also, Paris is defined by boundaries that were established long ago. People want to be within that defined area. That's where the most interesting culture is found. It's dreary in many of the suburbs.

[revolution breeze]

126. And people are being priced out of their apartments

Unless you own the building, or have connections, if the owner gets a better offer, your rent will be raised and raised again until you are out. I am not sure about the density restrictions though. Some apartments had two families living in them. My aunt said it was due to rising unemployment, people are moving in with family to keep a roof over their head.

[ooglymoogly]

128. The sad fact is that Paris like many other high rollers

is in for a huge-ish correction, along with the Euro.

[depakid]

43. Gotta get used to smaller houses...

and the difficulty of getting them in the first place.

[Raineyb]

123. My father was in the air force and currently has a Dutch wife.

He hasn't been back to the States in years, he's wondering what the hell is wrong with people here and my sisters keep asking me when I'm going to go over there. I'm seriously considering learning French and heading to Belgium.

[Mokito]

131. Dutch

Dutch will also do (for the Flemish part of the country) ^^ and you have the added benefit of having relatives that can help you with the language.

[LiberalLoner]

10. Yup. I lived in the Netherlands from 76-79 and it sure opened my eyes - I realized

there was a much more humane way of organizing society. I've been a "socialist" really since then. It's depressed me that ever since then it seems like we are going in the wrong direction most of the time as a country.

I still dream that we can be more like those countries though. I think they are better off than we are.

I kind of enjoyed watching my extreme right-winger acquaintance's head explode after she visited some of her hubby's relatives in the Netherlands. It was her first time out of the country. She comes from very old money, from a family that hated FDR with a passion because he took away their fortunes. She's been a staunch Con all her life. She just couldn't figure out how on earth a socialist country could have such a high standard of living.

I just stayed silent. No sense trying to argue with her - she's basically a bully in that sense. But I could just see the cognitive dissonance making her head explode. She saw a higher standard of living, more happiness, in a socialist country than what we have here in the U.S.

[CBR]

24. Yes. My Aunt had a friend who was a staunch conservative.

She married a Dutch guy and moved to the Netherlands. My Aunt went to visit. They were living in Amsterdam in social housing with two young children in a very small space. My Aunt said her perspective changed entirely. The friend went from a 4 bedroom suburban home in Raleigh that she lived in by herself to a two bedroom apartment in the city and loved it. The transportation, health care etc... transformed her thinking.

[wake.up.america]

61. I think it all boils down to a matter of preferences. I prefer not to live in...

in America. That is one thing of which I am sure. We are not with problems, but still, this make a lot more sense to me than what I see in America.

[Name removed]

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[bobbolink]

17. Can you please talk more about that?

Before my life crashed, I was trying to work on a PowerPoint program on homelessness.

I'd like like to have some comparisons like this.

Please.....

Thanks!

[CBR]

23. Hi... I can reply more later but I wanted to send this link to a

course some professors of mine are teaching this semester. It has a lot of good information -- http://udel.edu/~speuquet/

I hope it helps!

[bobbolink]

26. Thank you, but given I don't speak the language (silly me!), I'll wait for further

info. ^_^

[MrScorpio]

27. Don't worry

They all speaky-de-Engels

and besides, after a week of immersion, you'll be speaking fluent Dutch.

[bobbolink]

32. The website is NOT in English, and I don't have years to devote to learning the language.

I was asking for information for a project, but once again, I get the "study it yourself" stuff.

I would have helped you, but forget that.

[Leftist Agitator]

39. Bad day?

You usually aren't so snippy. You need a hug.

:hug:

Sorry I'm not wherever you are to deliver it in person.

[Name removed]

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[Bluenorthwest]

79. The website is in English

And is made for American students.

[ArcticFox]

99. try google translate

just paste in the url and it should let you read in english.

[AllyCat]

113. Wow, now I know what you were saying you don't speak the language

When I looked at the link it was in English. Maybe an internet setting?

[Dorian Gray]

59. The website link

was in English.

??????

[Name removed]

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[AllyCat]

112. Dutch actually has a lot of similarities to English and is easy to pick up

If you know any German, it is even easier. The pronunciation of things is kinda tough. Almost everyone I met in the Netherlands spoke English. I always asked though!

[ooglymoogly]

132. My experience in the Netherlands, particularly in Amsterdam, is that most speak english

and are happy to do so. If you live in a place, you catch on fast to the language if for nothing more than necessity.

[CBR]

166. Wow I do not know what happened here. Sorry I thought

the link would be more helpful as it was from a college course from professors who research housing policy in the Netherlands as part of their job. It is in English, however. Here is a link to one of the papers:
http://www.anccommunity.ca/Downloads/priemus_paper.pdf

[bobbolink]

141. I'm very sorry that I asked for further information.

You can be assured I won't do that again.

At least, not on DU.

[Wednesdays]

142. "...I can reply more later..."

They gave you what they could at the time, with a promise for further help later.

I didn't see that as being dismissive. :shrug:

[bobbolink]

145. I hope that you, and the others who were so discourteous, could finally

recognize that I was writing to the other poster.

OK?

I should have known better on DU, but I appreciated his very brief comment and would have liked to know more.

But DU can't leave it at that... they have to get critical and just plain ugly.

So, I am now sorry I even tried to tell the poster I appreciated the info.

:wtf:

[dotymed]

56. Pick up the pieces Bobbie.

Honestly, I don't think a power point would affect any of the corporate bastards. We have to Unite, millions strong and take to the streets. That would be impossible for even fox tee vee to ignore. If we don't do this, America will become much worse. Under FDR, the top income tax for the wealthiest was 91%. In 1970 it was 75%. We weren't considered a "Socialist" country then. Now our top tax is 35% for the wealthiest (even though they hide most wealth off-shore) and most corporations pay nothing. America would be much better if we returned to the good ol' days, pre-reagan. These European countries show that Socialism is a good thing for the majority. Unfettered capitalism is the most savage and unfair system in the world. The majority of Americans (80%) own 35 of Americas wealth. 50% of us own less than 1% of the wealth. Why would anyone who is not wealthy (5%), not want Socialism? Yes, we can keep our guns...

[cyclezealot]

51. We live in Europe most of the year.

It was interesting when we attended "Sicko." Remember the scene where Moore interviewed Americans living in Paris , talking about social programs(health care,) in France.. When we attended Sicko in a nearby City some other Americans were present.
When the interviewed Americans said, we feel guilty for the benefits we enjoy and what Americans don't have, the audience sighed in agreement... And one French doctor asked in the discussion afterwords.." Do American doctors have to take the Hippocratic Oath.. ?

[wolfgangmo]

90. I own a medical clinic so I can answer that for you.

Most MD's schools stopped administrering the hippocratic oath about 25 years ago (after Reagan got in office - coincidence? I think not.) so, no, most US doctors have not taken the hippocratic oath. Note: not all medical schools have stopped taking the oath - just most of them).

[Raineyb]

124. Interesting and it explains quite a bit about our medical system at that. n/t

[ooglymoogly]

134. That last quote is a wake up call. nt

[Warpy]

2. They also have far less of a nanny state telling them how to live

although US meddling has caused them to do stupid things like keep anti drug laws on their books.

Perhaps if Americans were expected to be adults, they'd act more like them.

[truedelphi]

14. That is a good point that is rarely mentioned.

Our young people are told to "die for our freedoms" but just what freedoms are those?

The freedom to have a SWAT team break down your front door and shoot your dogs, while setting off cannisters that end up burning down your house? All while they are at the wrong address? And the whole thing is about someone growing POT?

Those freedoms?

[wolfgangmo]

91. We don't have rights.

We have temporaty entitlements. If anyone can take any right from any one in the country at any time without recourse or punishment, then they are not rights.

[HipChick]

3. but many Britons will dis-agree with you about living in a police state

high # of CCTV per head...but basically a gunless society...

[MrScorpio]

6. I left the Brits out for a reason

Although I do love the BBC!

[conspirator]

12. Britain is definitely police state, and neo-imperialist

They basically do to Africa what the Americans do to South America.

[MindandSoul]

15. I also lived in England, twice, for 2 years each time. . .I liked it!

I especially benefited from their national health care, their adult school (that's where I learned English!. . .for free!) and I wouldn't mind living there again.

Didn't like driving on the left. . .but loved their public transportation. And never had the feeling I was being "watched" or that any of my liberties were being curtailed!

[onehandle]

18. It's a socialist paradise compared to here.

Britons are Never satisfied.

[HipChick]

45. that's a British trait though..

[Art_from_Ark]

53. Neither are Americans, for that matter

They always seem to be accepting of "change for change's sake", even if the new change totally sucks.

[Name removed]

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[Cleita]

5. Maybe we need to be invaded by a coalition of European countries

and given a Marshall plan. I can't see us being allowed to do this on our own by the entities who now run everything anymore than Hitler or Mussolini would have stepped aside to let Europe make progressive changes after it became obvious that fascism had failed.

[wolfgangmo]

92. And why would any country in the EU do that?

Why would they want to?

One of my friends once suggested to me that it would be a good idea if Canada took over some of the states in the US and made them better places to live. I (I grew up in Canada and still maintain my citizenship but I have lived here most of my life) asked him why Canada, a country with single payer health care, social safety nets, functioning health care system, and basically debt free, would EVER want to take on our problems.

If we can't solve our problems then me deserve what we get. Mark Twain said that we "never get the government with need. We get the government we deserve." Things haven't changed.

[Cleita]

130. You are right.

I forgot my sarcasm emoticon. In real life, we are they only country who invades these days. We seem to have taken that job over from Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union and Red China.

[Mari333]

7. it is far better living, I agree. been there, amazing.

took me weeks to get used to living here again. if my kids werent here, I wouldnt be either.

[Merlot]

8. I've been to Europe, and I agree with you. n/t

[Fire1]

9. Hell, anybody who has spent any time in Europe can attest to

that but you've got some here who would tell you they've been and it's the exact opposite of what you've described. Poverty ridden, etc. etc. Frankly, I don't think they know what the hell they're talking about. I LOVE it, over there!

[RobertPlant]

162. i always thought that dutch people were very conservative

I'm from Iowa and there are these two communities: Pella and Orange City. Both are right wing towns where people are very straightlaced almost to the point of being a nutcase. Their "hero" is this Bob Vanderplaats guy who right now is running for the GOP nomination for governor.

[XOKCowboy]

11. Me too. You're right so K&R....

Working with local crews I'd find they were amazed at what they considered nearly a birthright was so expensive and exclusive as American health care and education. They were also amazed that I, a person with an ingrown Okie accent and who wore cowboy boots, wasn't automatically for Bush and the Iraqi war. I got into a lot of interesting conversations that way.

[DesertFlower]

13. hubby and i have said that

if we were younger (in our 30s or 40s) we would make the move to a european country.

[Kievan Rus]

38. I'm 24 and planning as we speak.

As soon as I have a steady job in a European country and enough money saved up, I'm out of here.

[DesertFlower]

40. good luck to you. nt

[Name removed]

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[onehandle]

16. Me too. It's a whole different progressive ball of wax over there.

We are a century behind them or more.

[MindandSoul]

20. I was raised in Belgium, and also lived extensively in France and England, and

vacationned extensively (months at a time) in Italy and Portugal.

Yes, life is good there. . .
No country is perfect, no country has all the answers, but the difference is that at least, Europeans do not pretend to believe that they know it all and that "they are the best country anywere!"

They are willing to recognize mistakes, learn from their mistakes, and they are less set in "two parties" philosophy. . .in fact, they don't hesitate to kick out their leader if they don't like what he does! (Belgium is a prime exemple. . .that I would not necessarely recommend to that extent!)

Also, the middle class is more wide spread, and the working poor are not quite as poor because of the excellent safety net that are in place. Capitalism still exists. ..but to a lesser degree, because of the "safety net" that is provided in those "social democracy" countries.

Yes, I think that, if Obama is not reelected in 2012, I am going back to Europe!
Better to live in a country that is willing to learn from mistakes rather than in a country that insists that, even considering that we may not have all the answers, is unpatriotic!

[wake.up.america]

65. Lewis Black ,. " How do Americans know, if America is the best country in the world, ....

if they never the country?" I can name you hundreds of friends, acquaintances and relatives who have to the States.

[Name removed]

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[Call Me Wesley]

21. What, are you a communist?

You don't have free speech here as I have learned from a recently departed DU member who knew all the things about Europe I couldn't know, because we're also ignorant. ;)

[Vinca]

25. But, but, but. This morning Rudy said we're turning into one of those

evil, socialist countries and the government will fail . . . just like all the other socialist governments. (And, it goes without saying, he wasn't challenged on the statement.)

[bvar22]

28. Anyone who wants to evalute ....

....how truly horrible the HCR Bill just passed by the Democrats really is simply needs to compare it to what is taken for granted in Europe (and every single other "developed" country in the World).

We had a once in a generation opportunity to step up,
but No.
WE had to have "A Uniquely American Solution."....Indeed.


"If we don't fight hard enough for the things we stand for,
at some point we have to recognize that we don't really stand for them."
--- Paul Wellstone

[Taitertots]

29. There are good parts and bad parts

Lets get rid of HFCS.
Lets get National Health Care.
Lets neuter the Military industrial complex, and end imperialism.
Lets have the social safety nets that work very well over there.


I think calling America a pervasive police state compared to them is not exactly accurate. I would say each are somewhat repressive. I was asked for my papers multiple times in Germany. The streets were constantly patrolled by police. German Airport security was much worse than American airport security.

[MrScorpio]

30. I haven't been to Germany since 1998

In the four years before that when I was there, nothing like that that happened to me

Guess things do change

[Taitertots]

31. Different people go to different places and have different experiences

I don't want to give the impression that things were worse than America, but comparable.

[pampango]

44. We were in Germany (Frankfurt and Munich) for a week in May 2009. No one ever asked for our papers.

Except at the airport, of course. :)

[Solly Mack]

33. Really? I live in Germany and have never been asked for any sort of papers

while out and about and traveling around Germany. I see the polizei less often than I did the police in the states, and security at Frankfurt airport is a breeze. In fact, the airport is the only time I've ever been asked to show my passport in-country. When I drive to France/Italy etc., I just drive across the border - no papers, no nothing except when going to non-EU countries. I always keep my passport with me because they do have the right to ask for it....but that hasn't happened in 7 years. I also have an international DL and in-country DL. Never been asked to produce those either. (knock wood...lol)

I don't find Germany repressive in the least.

Sorry you had such a bad experience.

[Taitertots]

34. I guess I just "Fit the description"

Every time I drove anywhere I saw more than one police car. Specifically, I was around Frankfurt and Freiburg. I saw a police officer every single day I was in Germany.


I walked through Detroit Metro Airport without opening my bag. At Frankfurt my bag was searched multiple times, my laptop was taken into a back room where who knows what they did to it, and I was physically searched.


One time on a train ride through Germany the German police came up to me and demanded to see my passport. After I showed it to them they declared that it wasn't my passport and harassed me for several minutes.

[Solly Mack]

35. That sucks! Sorry that happened to you.

[Altoid_Cyclist]

63. My sister moved to Germany about 24 years ago. She and her husband live near Augsburg.

At first she thought that the government was a little too involved in the everyday lives of its' citizens. That might have had something to do with the fact that Germany was still two very different countries and they were just concerned with security. That's just a guess on my part.

The only real complaint that she and her husband (native German) have is the cost of real estate. They have said that it will probably be up to their two children to pay off the mortgage after they are dead. I don't know if she's kidding or if she's serious, but they did say that the cost of land and housing is quite high. They have an old farm that they have been renovating a little bit at a time. Her husband does most of the work himself even though he only has one arm and one good leg.

Their health care stories (both of them have some serious problems) really make the US look like a third world country in the way that we care for our citizens. They have no fear of losing their home just because they have health issues. Not many people in the US can be sure of that. His major surgery and extended hospital stay last year would have been in the tens of thousands (at the very least) of dollars out of pocket here in the good ol' US of A. It cost them well under $1,000 USD in Germany.

She does miss some things about the US and has discussed possibly moving back here once the kids are out on their own. Overall though, she is quite content to stay where they are for the time being.

I wish that I was younger and healthier and could get the hell out of this place and move to a civilized country.

[moondust]

48. I, too, had my papers checked in Germany.

In 1976 on a train from West Berlin across East Germany out to West Germany. The East German police came through the train car poking the muzzles of their rifles into people's bags to peer inside and demanding papers from everybody. They weren't very nice at all.

Just as a "police state" reference...

[wolfgangmo]

94. I don't think the US is a pervasive police state.

At least not yet and at least not in our borders.

But our actions abroad are clearly those of empire, and all empires eventually turn on their own citizens. I think a case can be made that the US started to turn on it's own during the Reagan years and perhaps earlier with Nixon.

[oldironside]

96. I live in Germany...

... and I have to say that my experiences are totally different. In my ten years here I've been asked for my ID card once. I drove British cars here for two years without ever being stopped, and now have a German car with a similar lack of problems.

Airport security here (I live in Hamburg, by the way) is very low key and much less invasive than at, for example, Heathrow. I've never had to show the holes in my socks flying out of Hamburg.

And as for the police presence, less obtrusive than London, apart from the fact they're armed here. The only time they gather together in abundance is when HSV (the local football team) are at home, or there's a carnival or parade. I find that comforting.

[Joe Chi Minh]

147. Being asked for papers in a non-fasicst context hardly indicates a police-state.

Assuming HFCS is corn syrup, your first four points are enormous, major factors in a civilised society, so the title of your response seems some what off the mark.

Sorry about the 'papers' comment, having read your description of the harrassment you suffered.

[fascisthunter]

170. heh? My mother was born there and I visit often

What you just described is nothing like my experience... people there have more freedom to express themselves politically than here, hands down!

[southernyankeebelle]

36. I love europe myself. All across europe you will find health care is excellent. No

person will lose their homes. I'm all for single payer.

[Kievan Rus]

37. I agree. It's a big reason why I hope to eventually emigrate there

[Initech]

41. Spending 2 weeks in Belgium, the Netherlands, and Germany was quite an eye opener.

Loved it, I'd go back again in a heart beat. The food was better, the beer was better, people were way friendlier to tourists than I had expected, everything was better!

[Name removed]

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[scubadude]

85. The beer was better?

Somehow I don't think you hang out where I hang out.

I agree with everything else though...

[wolfgangmo]

97. As a general comment it was still sound.

The beer, in general, is better in the EU. One can always find exceptions to the rule.

THat is unless you are arguing that coors, miller low life, PBR, etc are good beers. I should note that Anheiser-Busch, since being bought out by inBev has improved their offerings - Stella Artois is actually pretty good.

[scubadude]

102. You may have missed the Craft Brew revolution.

There are hundreds of breweries all across the U.S. making beers that are as good as if not better than their European counterparts. I can walk down the street to a bar and drink at least two dozen of them on tap, with dozens more available in bottles. I can go to the liquor store and purchase from hundreds of different beers in one place. That is far more than most European liquor stores handle.

If you are saying that most Americans drink shit beer, I wont argue. Yet that is their choice, they could be drinking much better beer, brewed right here.

Currently on tap:

Bells Brown Ale - $4.50
Bells Double Cream Stout - $5.50
Bells Expedition Stout - $6.50
Bells Hopslam - $5.50
Bells Sparkling - $4.50
Dark Horse Scotty Karate - $4.50
Dogfish Head Chicory Stout - $4.50
Dogfish Head World Wide Stout - $6.50
Flying Dog Raging Bitch - $4.50
Founders Imperial Stout
Goose Bourbon County Stout - $7.50
Green Flash IPA - $4.50
Lagunitas Cappuccino Stout - $4.50
Magic Hat #9 - $4.00
New Belgium 2 Below - $4.50
North Coast Old Rasputin - $5.50
Rogue Double Dead Guy - $4.50
Rogue Shakespeare Stout - $5.50
SKA Modus Hoperandi - $4.50
Summit 90 Shilling Scotch Ale - $4.50
Three Floyds Gumballhead - $4.50
Two Brothers Heavier Handed Oak Aged IPA - $4.00
Victory Storm King Imperial Stout - $5.50

With dozens more available in bottle.

Here is a link to a list of the best 100 beers in the world, as rated by thousands of folks from across the world:

http://www.ratebeer.com/RateBeerBest/bestbeers_012010.asp

Notice that about 75% of them are brewed in the USA.

Case closed,

Scuba

[geardaddy]

108. +1000

I loves me some Bell's.

[Dappleganger]

110. Excellent post, thanks.

We are huge proponents of local brew as well and have found good, honest beer which blows away the competition. Our favorite is run out of a dump, practically. You can't get it outside of Jacksonville, bring back your growler for refills. Bold City Brewery is a diamond in the rough. We hope it stays that way so they remain small and able to go with the flow.


http://www.boldcitybrewery.com/home.php

[scubadude]

114. Yes, there are many great brews only available locally.

I don't see myself traveling to your area soon, but I will keep Jacksonville Florida in my mind while looking for craft brews. Perhaps one day they will open up their distribution and I will get to try some.

They can still remain small yet distribute widely to an enthusiastic market.

Scuba

[Dappleganger]

118. They're talking about opening up to Tampa

later this year. Another craft brewer is about to open up across the street. I know there's a number of others who are already in this area--what I wish we had is a craft beer festival so that they can make this area and the rest of the state more aware of what they offer.

It's not just the beer we love, but the small biz environment of chatting it up with the owners who listen to what their patrons want and adjust their offerings accordingly.

Hope you can make it out this way one day!

[Initech]

149. There's a lot of good beer brewed in the USA, I'm not denying that at all.

I've got six packs of Sierra Nevada Bigfoot and Lagunitas Hairy Eyeball in my fridge right now, both are brewed here in California. :beer:

[scubadude]

157. So then you agree that perhaps their beer is not better?

Perhaps it is just more local.

In Europe you go into a bar and it has the local brew and perhaps a half dozen others.

Now you mention Lagunitas. They are one of my favorites. Chicago boys gone west to brew beers. Not a bad life. I have a few of their Zappa tribute beers in my stash...

Scuba

[Initech]

167. It depends actually.

Anywhere you go has the local favorites and mass produced swill. The Netherlands has Heineken, Belgium has Jupiler (aka Stella Artois) and Germany has Becks. But if you travel there for the most part you're not there to drink those beers anyways.

[scubadude]

175. I have buddies who went to Belgium specifically to drink beer.

Of course they loved it. Brewery tours are great.

Scuba

[Enthusiast]

151. You have no idea

what it is like living in the wilds of Ohio where none of these beers is available. We can buy some bottled if we drive but still not the many you list.

[scubadude]

154. You just have to make beer runs. Go up to Columbus.

And I'm sure there are many stores there where you can get hundreds of beers. There are probably bars where you can also get many different beers on tap.

Here is a listing for brewpubs and Micro Breweries in Ohio. There may be more than you think. I count 27 of them. http://www.beer100.com/brewpubs_o_to_z/ohio.htm

Scuba

[Enthusiast]

159. Well, that's what I have to do

when I want an exotic brew. I have been drinking the Dogfish Head IPAs. Thanks for the wonderful information.

[scubadude]

160. I also suggest you go to some enthusiasts meetings and

many folks at places like ratebeer and beer advocate will do trades. You make a run and get some beer only available in the east, and trade it to someone in the west who can't get it. Of course you must be of age to do any of this.

Good luck,

Scuba

[joe_sixpack]

156. I feel I must add....

It was because of people who tasted real beer -- particularly in Europe, that the craft beer revolution was launched and finally successful here in the states. New Belgium is a local brewer in in my area, and its founders were inspired by a bicycle trip through Belgium that opened their eyes to what real good beer tasted like. I am happy that the US finally embraced tasteful beer making. Just like making cars, we may lag behind for awhile, but once we get down to it and get serious, we can do it as good or better than anyone.

[Enthusiast]

161. Before prohibition

our beers were many and varied. What a stupid idea-prohibition.

[scubadude]

163. Yeah, there was a great brewing tradition that...

simply didn't make it through that dry spell. Some of the smarter ones started distilleries and brewed alcohol used for medicinal purposes, and I mean that literally.

So historically we had a rich brewing tradition that got stomped out by the religious right, and is as you say now getting serious.

I agree that the Europeans did influence our Craft brewing renaissance, yet we have a strong stake in it too. Brewers from all over the world come to the Siebel Institute of Technology in Chicago to learn to brew, as they have for well over 100 years.

Familiar story all around. Hopefully the Dems will come back as strong as beer did...

Scuba

[Enthusiast]

180. Funny so many of us are

home brewers and Zappa fans. It just seems pretty common on the net these days.

[joe_sixpack]

183. Wasn't it Zappa

who said something to the effect of "you can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline?" or something like that. Frank was the man. I still remember one of the last shows of his I saw in Chicago, when he was collecting panties on a clothesline up on stage.

[scubadude]

184. I saw Zappa several times, and his Band from Utopia tribute

at the Cubby Bear shortly after his death.

What a free thinker he was. Brilliant voice for common sense. We need more like him.

Scuba

[Enthusiast]

187. I got to see Frank several times

back in the 1970s. Just wonderful.

[Enthusiast]

186. He did say something about

how you must have a national beer to qualify as a country.

[Initech]

148. Hey don't get me wrong I love a good craft brew.

But the beer that I had in Belgium was just amazing. There's not a whole lot that can describe it.

[scubadude]

164. Well then keep trying. We have about 1600 breweries in the USA,

and that is growing all the time. Look at how good our beers already are, and Craft Brewing has only been around for what, 30 or so years?

I agree that many feel that Belgium is the place to be for beer. I have never been lucky enough to go there myself to judge, but I have had many imported Belgian beers. I tend towards the Russian Imperial Stouts or Imperial Stouts and ales. Those happens to be our strong points here, yet I have also had purely lambic beers brewed right here that was awesome too, as well as home brews that were equally delicious.

Scuba

[Initech]

168. I go to Denver every year for the GABF. You name it, i've probably had it!

:toast:

[scubadude]

173. Have you had any Dark Lord?

That seems to be one of the "Holy Grails" of beer drinking. Dark Lord day is a pure blast.

I think this years is the best I have ever had, as far as Dark Lord goes.

I think I like Goose Island's Night Stalker is better though. Maybe Plead the Fifth by Dark Horse too. There are a handful of those Imperial Stouts that are really great to me.

Maybe I'll do a vertical tasting with some of my friends to figure this out.

Scuba

[Initech]

177. No but I'm going to Chicago in a couple weeks, I'm gonna try to hit Three Floyds.

If not I will definitely try that beer while I'm there.

[scubadude]

179. Sorry, but they only sell it on Dark Lord Day...

That is why it is soooo sought after. I think it's over rated. This years was better though.

Scuba

[jacko_be]

107. hope you enjoyed belgium and europe, thx we apreciate n/t

[donheld]

46. +1000

[proteus_lives]

47. We should copy their HC systems.

But I've been to Europe and I wasn't gob-smacked like others seem to be.

It's funny because I always meet people from Europe and Asia wanting to be here and I always meet Americans who want to move there.

[moondust]

49. I love Europe.

All of it.

[JCMach1]

50. I love Europe, but it is definitely far from perfect...

When I want to breathe freely, I go home to America... although I usually do make a stopover in Europe!

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[liberal_at_heart]

81. not to mention the insurance industry, defense industry, all corporations really.

It is definitely the corporations that own America.

[skepticscott]

52. Don't forget that

most Europeans are also not in thrall to religious fundamentalism. They do not need prayer or creationism in their schools, and they don't require constant displays of god-fearin' from their elected officials.

They have, however, not completely abandoned pay toilets, so we do have that leg up on them.

[MindandSoul]

98. Pay toilets! That's true. . .but at least they are clean!

[dana_b]

144. not in San Franisco

it's pay toilets or you must be a customer to use one in a restaurant, etc.


I love that they are not so hung up on religious fundamentalism. Seems they learned their lessons centuries ago. We, on the other hand, seem to be getting worse. If I had the skills, the $$ and didn't have the family ties here, I would look to move ovver there.

[cartach]

54. The American dream

is a fucking nightmare !

[JackInGreen]

165. I think Carlin was right

The American Dream, you have to be asleep to believe it.

[NewJeffCT]

57. The airport in Rome was teeming with soldiers carrying machine guns

when we went 2 years ago.

However, the rail system in France & Italy was much easier to use and far more convenient & timely than the trains I've used in the northeast US.

[Douglas Carpenter]

58. Thank you!! my three and half years in Europe way back in the 70's convinced me the same thing

[Douglas Carpenter]

60. prisoners incacerated per 100,000 people

Sweden 82
Norway 66
USA 738
Poland 230
Italy 104
UK 148
China 118
Japan 62

http://old.swivel.com/data_sets/spreadsheet/1000643

note: In Iran the number of prisoners per 100,000 people is 226 / Saudi Arabia is 110

link for complete list of all countries:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_pri_per_cap-crime-prisoners-per-capita

.


.

[NewJeffCT]

80. That is an eye opening statistic

I knew we had the most percentage-wise, but 7 times the rate of China? WTF.

[liberal_at_heart]

82. If that's not the definition of a police state, I don't know what is.

What a sad and embarrasing statistic.

[MrScorpio]

133. My "Pervasive Police State" point exactly nt

[Art_from_Ark]

62. Just keep in mind what Europe had to go through

to reach this stage--

Two devastating world wars, a Great Depression, several monetary crises, extreme proximity to a perceived nuclear threat and the potential to be the battleground of yet another world war...

[MN TN]

64. There appears to be less stress over in Europe

They are not workaholics like we are.

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NNN0LHI]

71. Less prone to violence?

Who were those folks who came over here and committed genocide against the Native Americans that lived here?

I don't think they were Chinese.

Don

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[depakid]

77. "I then logged onto the internet" LOL- the internet was developed by the dreaeded Gubmint

you knucklehead!

[liberal_at_heart]

83. You really think Allstate would pay your damages? That's funny.

My husband worked for them during Hurricaine Andrew. It was the worst job he ever had in his life. Having to tell people they were denied a claim even though their entire house was destroyed. And you also think that no one dies at work because there are company mandated laws? According to the Bureau of Justice a million people are victims of violence in the workplace every year in the US. We had a work place crime happen in my city just last week and I don't live in the inner city either. Things are not as rosy as you would like to think.

[fleabert]

87. again? i wonder if your third post is also this drivel. nt

[liberation]

89. So you don't find it depressing that the whole point of your life...

... is to serve as a revenue source for corporations?

You seem to be a hamster who is all too proud to keep spinning in the wheel for the amusement of your owner. In other words, you are the ultimate tool. LOL

[The Wizard]

78. Predatory Capitalism

and Darwinism are similar concepts, the survival of the fittest. The irony is that the ignorant masses that succumb to Pox News/GOP dogma believe in creationism, while at the same time discounting Jesus' instructions to care for the weakest among us. Thoughts colliding inside the brain cause insanity, look at the Teabaggers.

[scubadude]

84. I guess then you don't "Believe in American Exceptionalism"...

of course said in my best Palin voice imitation.

:sarcasm:

[YOY]

88. Oh but they're all welfare states and need our superior protection.

:sarcasm:

[crim son]

93. Yep.

Having both traveled and lived abroad I wholeheartedly agree. The U.S. is rich in resources, but we need to drastically change our priorities to make it anything like "the best country in the world." Americans are smart, funny and inventive people, but they are so busy trying to safeguard their little piece of the pie that their social relations suffer, too. We could be SO MUCH BETTER.

[bikebloke]

95. I first went ot Europe in 1977.

And I saw something better, which transformed me into a social democrat. Their values were closer to my own. Only moving over there was too difficult. The easiest way would be to marry someone. No luck in that department. But I certainly saw a lot of the world looking for a way to emigrate.

[liberation]

100. I lived in Europe for a significant part of my life, they do have their own set of issues...

... no place on earth is perfect.

However, I appreciate the fact that at least their learned their lesson after centuries of warfare, famine, and brutal inequalities. I love hanging out with a lot of my friends in the old country, because a lot of them are educated and can carry a conversation on a multitude of subjects with a fair level of sophistication. I am not saying they don't have their fair share of knuckle heads (I believe that the percentage of dumbasses is fairly constant across national barriers), but there is no where near the same level of exaltation of stupidity as there seems to be in the USA. Heck, I love watching European TV late at night and watch debates in which philosophers are carrying on a rather deep and educated conversation. When was the last time the US mainstream media had a philosopher to talk about anything? Our society proactively chastises them intellectuals who spend all of their time thinking about, studying and analyzing human/social/systemic issues, and instead we prefer to interview Britney Spears on the meaning of the latest sociopolitical issues... because she looks hot in that whore outfit and does not speak in boring tongue like those awkward looking smarty pants. Because lord knows that catering to the lowest denominator is the path to achieve greatness!

My wife wants to explore living in Europe for a few years if/when we have kids. Every time we've been over there she had a hard time coming back, esp. now that she wants to expand our family and feels that parts of the EU are far more nurturing than the US is likely to be. A friend of mine from Spain came to stay with us for a while, and one of her first observations impacted me deeply, she basically asked us "where are the kids and your old people?" Over there it is normal to see hundreds/thousands of kids after school (or at all times during the summer) running around, playing, being boisterous, making up all sorts of fantasies while playing, in other words they live in a society which does not consider kids to be a nuisance... all the contrary, they believe in giving he chance to allow kids to be kids, and over there they still believe in what we have always known to be true: it takes a whole village to raise a child. Heck, in some parts it is almost a national sport to come out and yell at them to shut up because they are so loud.

Old people are not treated like a nuisance, they do not become a shame once their health deteriorates and the system is made so that families can concentrate on the emotional burden that disease brings without having to top it off with adding an economic burden the minute any human over there has the temerity of getting sick and stop being a good productive working bee. Old people are not shipped to some hot humid waiting room for hell far away. Also, my wife being the stauch feminist that she is, appreciates the fact that all her European female friends are fairly strong and secure (and very independent)... and if we have a daughter it would be great if we didn't have to fight with a society which thinks it is acceptable for the main role models for women to be composed of uneducated nitwits, who owe their success to the fact they can exploit their sexuality. It would be great to have kids whose first exposure to nudity comes way before their exposure to mindless violence.

What pisses me off is that a lot of the social protections in Europe were largely inspired by the American New Deal. I don't want this country to be like Europe, I live in one of the most amazing places on Earth (California). I simply want this country to live up to its potential. We can do better, because I know we have done better: simply open a text book and read about that fellow named FDR. I find it very very very depressing that most of my European friends can tell me when FDR was president, but a big chunk of my American friends couldn't even tell me what those initials stand for. And I weep when I realize a lot of those same people are now Democrats.

If we really want to pretend we're the bestest country on earth, we should start acting like it... Some wise person once said that the measure of any society is how it treats it most vulnerable members. Under that metric we fail miserably from any leadership position among societies.

[Enthusiast]

153. I agree.

But change for the better is almost impossible in this country due to the power of the corporations. Our media only serves to keep people dumbed down.

[newtothegame]

101. "less prone to violence"

Actually, I watched the Muslim riots a few years ago. The French's goal of harmony has achieved nothing but discord.

[Hamlette]

104. Europeans aren't addicted to the military industrial complex because we are

while I don't want to defend the "military industrial complex" I do believe we need a strong defense. Europe can count on us if something bad happens. We prefer it that way too.

[revolution breeze]

105. When hubby was stationed in Germany

we were often reminded by our neighbors (we lived on the economy rather than on base)that they had no need of a strong military as long as the United States military maintained bases throughout Europe. They get the benefit while the United States foots the bill.

[Hamlette]

111. exactly

and we like it that way because we think it might make it harder for another Hitler to emerge.

It's also fascinating to me how much more informed Europeans are about us than we are about them. My sister lived on a University campus in Denmark during Watergate. I visited and spent time with the other students (my sis was working, I didn't have much to do during the day as the University was not in a large city). Anyway, I was shocked that every student could name every cabinet member of the Nixon administration! I wasn't even sure if they still had a King and I consider myself fairly well informed.

[Hosnon]

158. This important point is often overlooked. Think what we could provide our citizens

if Europe were footing the bill for the (relative) global peace. Pax Americana is not cheap.

[jacko_be]

106. maybe, stop selling weapons, and put more money on helping people instead off the war

quit selling guns, and tax them, works quit fine,
do something about the 40 milj people who can't write/read english
instead of wanting to show off whit military put them in places where they are needed
legalize cannabis, takes a lot off crime away, and make a good income to the goverment
......................... this is logic ................................
!!!!and this is what i have seen in the states
you people are allways mad and angry
you guys fight for everything,
take it easy

[olegramps]

109. What is truly disheartening is that we have the potential for greatness.

I keep harping on what I consider to be the most important issue. That is the destruction of the unions that in conjunction with the New Deal and Fair Deal politics created a vibrant middle class. Ever thing that is wrong with our Republic can be traced directly to the loss of organized labor. If labor had continued to be organized it would have had the power to demand and get universal health care. Remember this fact that when 36% of labor was organized that was when companies were providing excellent health care benefits. It could have prevented the massive out-sourcing of jobs through protective tariffs. It could demand progressive tax policies and inheritance taxes that prevent the creation of a Plutocracy and that the wealth be fairly shared. Sorry, but the bottom line is the workers fucked themselves when they bought the corporations propaganda hook, line and sinker. Maybe the workers will wake up like their European fellow workers have and realize that corporations are soulless entities that are solely dedicated to maximizing their profits. If they can screw the workers then they will due it if it benefits the bottom line. Its that damn simple; if you bend over you are going to get screwed.

[revolution breeze]

120. Not just a potential for greatness, a history

of greatness. Labor leaders lost touch with their roots and those they were representing. They became political instead of worry about their people. We need strong leaders to come from within the workers, someone who has really gotten their hands dirty and knows what it is to feel to worry about feediing your children!

[olegramps]

181. If you have read any of my posts, then you know that I am pro-union.

It is not in the least coincidental that when 36% of the work force was unionized the workers enjoyed their highest standard of living. Now that they account for only 6% of the work force it isn't surprising that they are getting the shaft while management get the mine.

[revolution breeze]

185. How can we increase union membership?

It is hard for drivers to follow an attorney like James Hoffa who has never gotten a dirty hand driving a truck!

[slackmaster]

115. We helped Europe take care of its propensity to violence in 1918

"And they've scarcely bothered us since then."

- Tom Lehrer

N&U for failing to remember history.

:nuke:

[defendandprotect]

116. Agree . . . down the line - less violence, better educated, healthier, happier, more secure!!

[revolution breeze]

117. I just wish there were more people who SAW this.

I have traveled the world, as a tourist, as a military brat and as a military spouse. It amazes me every single day how we as Americans (being general here) refuse to see what is happening around us. I am not just a keyboard commando, I spend time researching what is happening in my community, in my world, and how it impacts me personally. I learned long ago I cannot be complacent, if I want this country to be the country of my childhood, I have to be vocal. I am sure some of my neighbors say "here comes that woman who wants to talk about how the new strip mall if going to affect my drainage" or "I really don't want to hear her talk about the pesticides in my green beans again" but until they ask me to not talk to them about it, they will hear me. I want my community back, I want my country back, I want my children to have the same opportunities I had and more! I want clean water, nutritional food, a healthy environment!

[colsohlibgal]

119. Agree 100%

Some of the European countries have drifted back to some corporatism, but the Scandinavian countries have stayed true to their course.

They provide health care and college costs - and you have to believe that they save on medical costs because of the lack of stress on on it's non wealthy citizens. No worries about money if you or your kids get sick, no worries about educating them all the way through grad school. The education for all also fosters much more upward mobility. Oh, and another stress reducer is they work fewer hours each week, and they get 4, 5, 6 weeks of vacation from the moment they are hired.

It is amazing the things you can do when you don't fritter away trillions on wars that only create more people who want to slit all your throats, or send 100s of billions to rich bankers so they can pay it's executives tens of millions.

[quiet.american]

121. Yes, I've been there, too - but I still couldn't wait to get back to NY.

What can I say?

[Ernest Partridge]

135. A View from Abroad

Four years ago, I published in DU and elsewhere,my impressions of Europe, Russia and Japan in "The View from Abroad: A Personal Perspective." (http://www.crisispapers.org/essays6p/abroad.htm), with special attention to (a) attitudes toward war and peace, (b) infrastructure, and (c) language. Excerpt:

"In general: I found that Americans were well-liked and respected, but then I was usually among professional colleagues. The general public abroad that I came in contact with treated us, in all but a very few cases, with courtesy. I gained the impression that American political institutions and traditions were genuinely admired, but that some American personal traits, in particular ethnocentrism and arrogance, were not...

"The countries I visited were not "teeming" with populations desperate to emigrate to the United States – with "huddled masses yearning to breath free." Instead, I met people who were proud of their own countries, and content to remain there...

"We like to call ourselves "the leaders of the free world." But world news, along with personal correspondence with my friends and colleagues abroad, tell me that this leadership is slipping away. News from within the United States, when read critically, tells us that our self-congratulatory "freedom" is eroding, and that which remains is in grave peril."

[Paper Roses]

136. Been there too. Agree 100%.

[theFrankFactor]

137. Sweriously, Can someone Tell Me How to Get the Fuck Out of Here?

Immigration appears to be a bitch no matter where I look. I'm 53 and have health issues, who wants my ass?

But I'm serious. This nation is a shit box full of dopes and dupes and plenty (too many) show their stupid asses here at DU. That's what hurts the most. The Liberal/Progressive "movement" is a joke! "My people" are scattered, weak cowards and sell-outs. This fucking Corporacrat stand-up comic Barack Obama should be hearing it from the Left- LOUD AND CLEAR! But no, "give him time"? My asshole!

From Republicanistan to Dipshitistan and heading further and further down the line.

[MrScorpio]

139. You're so crazy, Frank

I love you, man.

[theFrankFactor]

146. Thank You... I Think. No, Really, Get me the Fuck Out of Here!

What can I do? Six months here and six somewhere else? What? Fearing for my health and security in old age is not my idea of freedom.

I can't find it in my moral constitution to just give up, especially when I face this turd circus everyday. You have to argue with people about off shore drilling? Really? C'mon! That was some "health" care reform we got there too! Now let's see, Barack is hiring AIG to handle the budget for entitlement programs? I'm sorry, I'm one of these fucking NUTS that doesn't see that as a good thing. I'm finding it harder and harder to respect my party and my fellow citizens. And the thing is, I really, really CARE about this place. Ten years ago, hell, in October of last year I could never have imagined the shit ball we'd be sitting on right now. I thought, hell man, people are pissed about what Cheney and the shit eaters did to America! We're gonna show 'em how it's done! And THIS is it?!

[kixat3500]

174. another reason why I advocate population control

f_cking waste of space

[alp227]

138. Screw HFCS, can I get some baguettes? (giggle)

:rofl: at your HFCS reference. I think there's plenty of delicious naturally-made French food out there. Don't forget European countries' universal health care!

But realize though that France used to have a worldwide empire that reached everywhere from Canada to Africa to Southeast Asia. It's why you can hear French spoken in Montreal, New Orleans, and Dakar. Maybe there's still some French speakers in Vietnam. Now, I suppose that the French just don't give a damn anymore.

[iandhr]

143. I am just finishing my study aboard in france

Its was a GREAT experience. NO ONE IS PERECT. NO ONE HAS ALL THE ANSWERS. There a few things that we can learn from Europe as there are a few things they can learn from us.

[Enthusiast]

150. Right on, MrScorpio! nt

[mnhtnbb]

152. My son is going to Germany for 6 weeks summer study. He's a German major

and I'm hoping that his language skills will eventually give him the opportunity to
get out of the U.S.

[DFW]

155. So many people want to move here, and my German daughters wanted to live in New York

For now, both of them do, but one of them graduates from Law School this year and was told by the firms she
wanted to work for, basically, if you are not #1 in your class at Harvard or Yale, and even then willing to
defer employment for a year, then please fuck off. Another of her classmates sent out ONE HUNDRED SIXTY resumés
and didn't even get invited for ONE interview. She interviewed with a German branch of a British firm, and then
with their head office in London, and they loved her, so it looks like she will be moving back over here. We're
glad she kept her dual nationality, so that there would never be any bureaucratic barriers to working over here.
We raised our girls bilingually, and it has paid off.

So now, it looks like she will be working in Frankfurt, starting salary 100,000 euros (probably close to the 50%
tax bracket, but you can still live on 50,000 euros). She gets complete German health coverage and not only gets
the standard six weeks German paid vacation, but will also be expected to take the full six weeks vacation in order
to avoid burnout. She wanted to stay in NYC, but that offer beats waiting on tables in Greenwich Village.

I married a German woman close to 30 years ago, requested and got a posting in Germany from my immediate superiors,
and although I officially keep my Texas residence, I hang in Europe for at least half the year, rarely in one country
for more than two days at a time (insane day job).

Frankly, I don't think I would want to move back to the South, although I was born and bred there. If I move back
Stateside, permanently, it would probably be to Boston or somewhere in New England that more resembled Europe. But
for now, I have the real thing and the best of both worlds. I don't think at this point that I'd be happy giving up
either one of them.

In the old East Germany, there were military-style police on every street corner, spies in civvies everywhere, and
and it was forbidden BY LAW for more than four people to sit together at a restaurant or café (could be a plot to
attack Moscow or open the Berlin wall, doncha know). THAT was a police state. Watch "Das Leben der Anderen" for an
accurate portrayal of life in East Germany. See what "Police State" really means before using the term lightly.

[cynatnite]

169. There is approximately 1 camera for every 14 people in Great Britian...

Great Britian is considered a surveillance society by some. In France, certain expressions of religious belief is against the law. In Germany it is against the law to be a Holocaust denier. On the surface these things are awful, but is actually stifling to freedom of speech and freedom of expression.

Nowhere do we have these sorts of laws in this country.

IMO, freedom is a subjective notion.

[liberal_at_heart]

176. in my opinion freedom is an illusion

You have as much freedom as the people in charge let you think you have. In certain states there are state constitutions that forbid atheitsts, which my daughter happens to be, from serving in public office here in the US. We don't like to think for ourselves so we let our preachers, politicians, and tv personalities tell us what to think. We have women in this country willingly give up freedoms like birth control, working, and even preaching as in the case of the Southern Baptist Convention because their preacers tell them to. Gay people can't marry or openly serve in the military. We're free alright. We're free to have other people tell us what to do and how to think.

[MajorChode]

171. I get a chuckle out of the flag wavers who think we have more freedoms in the US

The reality is the US is nowhere near as free as some other countries.

[fascisthunter]

172. verrrry true

[easilynervous]

178. I would like to visit parts of Europe (possibly Germany)sometime

but don't have the best job or a whole lot of money? Is there any hope for me for something like that?

[DFW]

182. It's getting better

The Euro, due to the fiasco in Greece (efharisto poli, Goldman Sachs), has lost 20% against the dollar this year,
so visiting this year will cost a lot less than it did last year. The trick is finding cheap plane flights. That
requires a maximum of flexibility, and not many jobs will allow you that.

[wiggs]

188. Mr Scorpio. Get thee to Planet Green and watch David Suziki's show

called the Suzuki Diaries. Saw it tonight and was tremendously impressed. He and his skeptical daughter travel parts of Europe looking for lifestyle and technological inspiration wrt sustainability. The show echoes your sentiments.

Thanks. And in comparison...we are insane and ignorant here in the US.

[wiggs]

189. My daughter has been in Copenhagen for the last 5 months. I can't wait till

she comes home in another 10 days and brings back observations of lifestyles from a different place. 40% of workers bike to their place of employment. You can pick up a bicycle for free and use it as you wish, then return it in a different location. They rely on wind power for energy. They consider "hygge" (the state of contentment that comes from being with friends and family in a pleasantly appropriate setting) an important pastime.

We can learn a lot from other countries if we drop the "best country god ever gave to man" mentality that many of us subscribe to.