No Prayer Ban at Seniors' Meals

[The Straight Story]

No Prayer Ban at Seniors' Meals


SAVANNAH, Ga. — Confusion over prayer at a senior center in Port Wentworth has sparked a meeting this week.

Officials are trying to sort out a brouhaha over seniors saying grace over their meals.

The senior center's meals are paid for by federal funds.

Recently, that center told seniors they couldn't say a communal blessing and changed it to a moment of silence.

Port Wentworth Mayor Glenn Jones says, he went immediately to speak to the seniors.

"It's crazy and absurd," Jones says. "All they want to do is say grace over their meal."

The director of the agency administering the meals says, she knows the importance of prayer in many seniors' lives.

Patty Lyons of Senior Citizens, Inc., says the difference is how it's done.

"We are a private non-profit," Lyons says. "We're just trying to follow the regulations that are set forward."

http://www.gpb.org/news/2010/05/10/dhs-no-prayer-ban-at-seniors-meals

[Cronus Protagonist]

1. A moment of silnce is plenty time for everyone at teh table to pray silently

It's a bullshit complaint. They can pray anywhere any time they want.

[bobbolink]

7. Matthew 6:6

But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

[DrDan]

10. if all at the table want this blessing over their meal, what is the harm . . .

[bobbolink]

First of all the quote speaks to that, doesn't it?

Second, and what many of you seem to be missing, is that there are often MANY who do NOT want prayer, and without a ruling like this, they are subjected to it anyway.

A period of silence is sufficient for a true believer.

Only those who wish to inflict their mores on others will object.

[DrDan]

55. not necessarily - and as I said - if everyone at a table wants a prayer, what is the harm

[bobbolink]

64. Would you please consider your "IF"?

that really is the point, don't you think?

Make it personal... Do YOU want to have to have meals with somebody else's beliefs foisted on YOU?

[DrDan]

67. very honestly - and as an atheist - if I was at a table - and the others want to

say a blessing - I would respect that - and sit quietly while they do so.

I am not afraid of their prayer.

Particularly if with seniors, if they feel a bit better because of it - then so be it.

[bobbolink]

69. And you don't grant that same right to those who DO object?

Is it really all just about what *we* see?

I have said this several times, and nobody seems to acknowledge it.. I have seen this very situation, and I have seen the discomfort and resentment it brings. There is NO reason for it, especially given they were granted a period of silence. For those who came to socialize, maybe even the silence is uncomfortable.

They have plenty of time on their hands for their private prayer. They could probably meet together in another room before the meal if they insist they HAVE to have a communal prayer.

Foisting it on others is selfish.

[DrDan]

71. bah humbug . . .

actually - If I were at a table with you and others who wished to say a blessing - I would probably move to another table.

Not because of the prayer - but because of your insensitivity.

[Cronus Protagonist]

21. Then they can eat their own food at their own table and do whatever they like

I don't know how you can so blithely place a call to ignore the Constitution. An aging atheist at the table should not be placed in a position of having to bow to peer pressure.

[DrDan]

56. read my post - "if all at the table want a prayer"

what does it hurt

I don't understand how you can be so callous . . .

[bobbolink]

74. The situation I saw WAS a group at their own table, but they were so loud

that they forced the end to all other conversation or greeting, or others silence, and dominated EVERYONE. All came to a halt when they decided it was their prayer time.

Inconsiderate, selfish, and definitely not "scriptural".

[DrDan]

77. that is one anecdote - not necessarily the rule

[DrDan]

75. self-delete

[Hoopla Phil]

81. Separate but equal based on religion. Got it.

[Hoopla Phil]

85. You have an interesting point of view as to just who is ignoring the constitution.

Congress shall make no law. . .prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

With regard to not being free to pray verbally, I don't think there is a SCOTUS decision on that yet. I'd like to see one some day though. It would stop this back and forth. Is a person free to verbally pray? I say yes; you say only silently. There is no clear legal decision on that.

And you never did get back to me about this statement of yours: "This is all about forced praying in public. Not about any individual's relationship with one's deity."

I don't recall anything in the O.P about anyone being forced. Could you please quote that part for me?



Oh I DO recall something regarding public prayer. It was the "meet me at the flag pole" kids. They met each morning before school started to pray at the flag pole. This was (may still be) a national deal but one school put a stop to it saying that there could be no prayer on school property. When lawyers got involved the school backed down very quickly. I guess it was just a matter of reminding the school about the not "prohibiting the free exercise thereof" part in the constitution that they appeared to be ignoring.

[roguevalley]

103. kick an old person year. that is what this is. there are tables, multiple,

and if you don't want to sit with someone who is probably saying the short little prayer they have said since they were six, then move. I am sure that the praying folks would congregate away if someone would mention it before running to the admins and making a riot out of a simple thing. But of course, I was raised to be mannerly. asking, the right thing to do.

[Cronus Protagonist]

16. Precisely

All these complaints are about not being allowed to proselytize and shame others. They have nothing whatsoever to do with one's personal prayer preferences.

[Peacetrain]

18. What next.. prayer police?.. good grief..

[bobbolink]

22. You said it much better than I did. "proselytize and shame others"

Bingo.

:applause:

[Peacetrain]

28. So what are you going to do to those praying grannies and gramps?

Take away their food? maybe make them sit off by themselves?

[Cronus Protagonist]

31. They can sit quietly and pray internally

No one can take that right away from them. And they never have.

[Peacetrain]

34. And what if they start saying grace?

[Cronus Protagonist]

35. You can't be that obtuse

I won't engage in your shit stirring any further.

[Peacetrain]

37. No.. that is the point.. this is a tempest in a teapot started up probably by a fundy administrator

or some such just to get something like this started prior to an election.. Oldest trick in the book and I would be the farm on it

[bobbolink]

36. This is really hilarious.

When people get on and make very ugly remarks about Christians, I get all kinds of flack for insisting that everyone deserves respect for their own beliefs.

When I insist that others have the right NOT to be subjected to beliefs they don't share, I am mocked.

This should be simple, common sense.

Simple respect.

How difficult is that?

[Cronus Protagonist]

43. Respect comes only from respectable, respectful people

People who want to mock and humiliate publicly, grandstand and bully do not have such attributes.

[bobbolink]

46. And, very sadly, those qualitites have nothing to do with party affiliation.

:(

[GoneOffShore]

63. But criticizing the military-industrial complex is off limits?

Oh, OK.

BTW I'm more than in favor of mocking silliness - especially when it comes to imaginary friends.

[GoneOffShore]

58. And no one is going to hear what you just said.

[LanternWaste]

65. I imagine if one is a biblical literalist

I imagine if one is a biblical literalist, that's the only thing the passage may mean...

[bobbolink]

2. And senior who ask for peace and quiet are treated like scum.

I know, because I've seen it firsthand.

[Kerrytravelers]

3. So long as no one is forced to say prayer, what is the problem with people who want to say a grace?

And I'm non-religious. I wouldn't pray. But if someone else wants to, so long as I don't have to participate, why the hell should I care?

[MIprogressive]

11. +1

[Hoopla Phil]

17. AND, the constitution says that you cannot make a law to stop it.

Congress shall make no law. . .prohibiting the free exercise thereof

[texastoast]

23. Will they allow a Wiccan prayer?

I just wonder how that would fly (ahem, so to speak, you see).

We attended a school-sponsored banquet a couple of weeks ago, and we had a born-again hellfire and brimstone preacher give the blessing.

I don't mind whatever they say, but I doubt seriously that any Wiccan would have been allowed to give a blessing calling on the Great Goddess, Mother of Earth and Protector of All.

And unless we all get a turn, I guess fair will never be fair.

[Dappleganger]

29. If you were at my table

I would have insisted. I love to hear other people's prayers...it says a lot about them.

:hug:

[Kerrytravelers]

52. Have they asked?

I don't know. If they were denied, I'd have a different opinion. If anyone asked and were denied, then I'd have a different opinion.

[Cronus Protagonist]

25. You are not seriously asking that question.

As if you haven't lived in this country long enough to know about the seperation of church and state.

[WolverineDG]

32. at the dinner table?

:wtf: Okay fine, have it your way, go tell the old people they can't pray over their food. What are you going to do with those who do so anyway? Throw them in jail?

dg

[dems_rightnow]

48. He's badly mistaken

People may pray on their own without restriction. At dinner, in a Federal building... absolutely anywhere they wish to. It can't be forbidden. That's the flip side of separation of church and state.

If the facility is not encouraging the prayer, people have the freedom to pray. On their own.

[Kerrytravelers]

54. People are free to say a blessing for their meals as they so choose. Just as I am free not to do so.

If it is forced prayer, then that is different.

When I was a classroom teacher in public school, I had a kid or two who received free lunches and said a quick grace before eating. Should I have disallowed that? :shrug:

[DrDan]

78. this is a simple blessing for the food . .. . why deny a senior that comfort

goodness gracious - have a heart

[pipoman]

136. Have you lived here long enough to know about, oh,

freedom of speech, freedom of expression, freedom of association, oh, and freedom of religion. There are no prohibitions against sitting at a table in any federal facility in the world and verbally saying a prayer if speech is permitted, sitting in any federally owned cafeteria and expressing your personal beliefs, standing in the foyer of the White House with a group of like minded people and say a verbal prayer, or sitting in a senior center with a group of others and saying a prayer. No Problem At All, and you violate THEIR rights if you do not allow it...the only problem is if the prayer is government sponsored or mandated...that's it.

[bobbolink]

40. Cool! Then lets, by all means, have a daily prayer at DU!

[Kerrytravelers]

53. There are forums for spirituality. You are welcome to post there as you please.

:shrug:

[bobbolink]

57. Exactly. And the same should be in force for seniors who just want a meal.

See how easy that is?

[Kerrytravelers]

59. Then they are free not to say grace.

Very easy. :shrug:

[bobbolink]

60. OH my.... Even when the "gracers" are shouting over them??

This really is a simple concept.

In public, pray your prayers privately and don't dominate those who don't want your prayers, or want to have their own prayers.

That really is the democratic way.

Public meals should be a DOMINATION FREE ZONE.

[Kerrytravelers]

62. Ok, it seems we are going to go in circles with this.

I don't care if people say grace or not. You do. Ok. I'm stepping out of this thread at this point.

[bobbolink]

66. Good idea.

:hi:

And, I don't care, either.

I have SEEN elders dominating others in just this way, and it is UNJUST.

I can't really understand why others here can't grasp that.

"Do as ye will and harm ye none."

[orleans]

98. i understand it. if i was in that position i would feel uncomfortable

and annoyed. i would also have a problem with everyone looking down their noses at me for not praying along with them.

and for me, a does of religion is a real appetite killer. i certainly would not want to have to be exposed to that three times a day.

maybe they should have a little room that these people can go into before the meal, all say their prayers or blessings together and then head to the dining hall.

[DrDan]

112. what's the difference in you opinion (go to another room to pray so as not to bother anyone)

and that of someone who insists that all pray?

Seems to be the same to me.

[orleans]

130. it's not my fault you just don't get it. some people don't have

much sensitivity or respect of other's feelings.

[LanternWaste]

82. Would that apply to politics, I would be a happy person...

"In public, pray your prayers privately and don't dominate those who don't want your prayers, or want to have their own prayers."


Would that apply to politics, I would be a happy person...

[Lance_Boyle]

91. Just start eating while they pray.

They can pray you don't take all the mashed potatoes, or that their food doesn't get cold while they're appeasing their angry gods.

[pecwae]

95. You shouldn't.

Nor do I. No one is being forced AFAICS in the article.

[DrDan]

4. oh good Lord - if they want to say a prayer over their meal, who does that harm

more from the link . . .

However, officials at DHS say, there appears to be a miscommunication.

"There are no guidelines or policies set by the Division of Aging Services that would prohibit public prayer," says James Bulot, head of the Division of Aging Services at DHS. "We serve over four million meals a year and this is the first time this has come to our attention."


Sounds like someone has misinterpreted the regulation.

[Peacetrain]

5. Seriously.. have people gone so far off the track..

I think someone is trying to make a tempest in a teapot.. if you get my drift. If a person wants to pray over their food, and if they want to do it with friends.. no one, can stop them.

[DrDan]

8. or should stop them

good heavens . . .

[Peacetrain]

9. Exactly!

[donheld]

88. +1

[jmowreader]

6. Come on. Let Grandma say grace.

There's a difference between telling Grandma she can say grace before she eats, and telling Grandma if she doesn't hew to a specific interpretation of the Bible she can't have any dinner.

[The Straight Story]

12. Well if they get federal funds, Separation of church state and all....

:evilgrin:

[Hoopla Phil]

15. Congress shall make no law. . .prohibiting the free exercise thereof

[jmowreader]

20. Thank you.

Letting grandma say grace before dinner is free exercise of religion. Forcing her to is not. No one's forcing anyone to do this here.

OTOH, they need to come down on homeless shelters that take federal funding but have religious tests to get in. There was one in Fayettenam, and I'm certain there are some here in Coeur d'Alene.

[Cronus Protagonist]

They're free to pray silently

This is all about forced praying in public. Not about any individual's relationship with one's deity.

[Hoopla Phil]

45. I don't recall anything in the O.P about anyone being forced. Could you please

quote that part for me?

And with regard to not being free to pray verbally I don't think there is a SCOTUS decision on that yet. I'd like to see one some day though. It would stop this back and forth. Is a person free to verbally pray? I say yes; you say only silently. There is no clear legal decision on that.

[jmowreader]

97. I think they're free to verbally pray...

so long as I'm free NOT to. And that is of course exactly what the fundamentalists want--to make everyone pray the exact way the fundamentalists want them to. (For extra excitement you should come to Idaho, where they have a Protestant-dominated North and a Mormon-dominated South and each half is absolutely certain the other is going straight to hell.)

[shimmergal]

94. If a person wants to

address _any_ entity by speaking softly, they should be allowed to. EVen an "imaginary friend." I suspect an imaginary friend is needed when people around one are inconsiderate!

If they speak so loud that no one else can converse (or think) while it's going on, that's a different matter.

Silent doesn't work for some people. Insisting that it's the only mode of prayer acceptable in public is also trying to prohibit free exercise of religion.

[Dorian Gray]

106. Who is being forced to pray?

Where does it say that in the article?

[DrDan]

113. actually - they are free to pray out loud

what law are they breaking if they do so

[Hoopla Phil]

121. Still waiting on that quote in the O.P. where people were being forced to pray.

Your assertion was, "This is all about forced praying in public. Not about any individual's relationship with one's deity."

Could you please quote the O.P. on where people were being forced to pray please?

[The Straight Story]

42. True Indeed (nt)

[Nye Bevan]

61. The phrase "separation of church and state" does not appear in the Constitution

The Constitution does say "Congress shall make no law establishing a religion". I don't see how letting Gramps say Grace violates this.

[The Straight Story]

73. I was joking, hence the evil grin :) (nt)

[DrDan]

79. no one is forcing a prayer - so it is different

[Dappleganger]

13. These aren't impressionable children...

they're adults in their twilight years who probably grew up saying prayers over a meal. Let's let them have self-led prayers by one of the seniors.

[bobbolink]

26. "Probably" is the operative word. You are making the assumption that ALL want it, and that

no objections have been made.

My experience says that is NOT true.

This is coercion, shame and proselytizing.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bobbolink]

39. Or, heaven forbid, elderly Jews!!!!

ONG NO!!! NOT THAT!!!!

[Dappleganger]

41. Are you elderly or have you worked with the elderly?

I have worked around plenty of elderly atheists (actually, Jewish atheists, no less). Let me assure you that they had no problem with expressing their opinions and were as accepting of other people's beliefs/non-beliefs as anyone I've ever met--even more so than christians.

Perhaps you're just an angry atheist, but generally speaking people do tend to hang out with like-minded folks and those who don't want to listen to something are off doing their own thing w/out begrudging anyone else.

When you get to be that age, you are free to associate with whomever you wish. I'm sure that at some point in time someone who is not of your persuasion will be within earshot of your vocal opining and have to put up with it. So respect goes both ways.

[Cronus Protagonist]

44. So this is an argument against the US Constitution and the long established precedent

Why? What's in it for you? Why would you want to trash the US Constitution over an old lady wanting to proseletyze in her waning years? Let her eat cake, and she can pray silently before eating it if she wants, or not. What she can't do is force others to listen to her.

[Dappleganger]

47. You believe that a little old lady saying a prayer aloud is proselytizing?

Are you really that weak and insecure in your own beliefs that anything she said, whether it be a prayer or reciting the alphabet would somehow disrupt your own philosophy?

What's in it for me? I believe in the freedom of speech and freedom to say a prayer before a meal as long as they aren't forced to do so. And you are free to agree or disagree, ignore or bloviate as you choose.

[bobbolink]

84. YES

[moriah]

128. So is a little old lady wearing a cross necklace or a rosary prostletyzing?

After all, you can see it... Oh my Darwin! It's putting religion in range of your perception!

We Must Stop This Now!

[Hoopla Phil]

87. Psst. I think you missed this part of the constitution: Congress shall make no law. . .

prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

[Cronus Protagonist]

89. No, I didn't. She can practice her religion all she wants

And her rights end at the ears of another person. Her freedom to practice her religion is boundless inside her head.

[DrDan]

114. and what law says one cannot pray out loud?

[Hoopla Phil]

119. That would be the Cronus Protagonist directive I believe.

[Hoopla Phil]

118. That pesky "free exercise" thing would seem to disagree with your opinion.

Unfortunately there is no SCOTUS ruling on this issue - yet.

[Hoopla Phil]

120. Then again there is that other pesky thing about free SPEECH. lol!

[timtom]

50. Hmmm...

"People who want to mock and humiliate publicly, grandstand and bully do not have such attributes."

I'm of the opinion that invective is best left unsaid. Regardless of how stupid one feels another to be.

[Cronus Protagonist]

90. You mght be right

hahaha!

[Hoopla Phil]

14. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,

or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

[tammywammy]

86. +1

Apparently some on this thread forget the second part.

[Dorian Gray]

107. Exactly right

I'm perplexed by some of the responses in this thread.

[JDPriestly]

19. I think they can say a grace provided that they organize who will lead

it among themselves. The Senior Center can't require them to say grace or determine what grace they should say. But individual seniors can offer a grace. Same as in the schools but probably allowing a lot more leeway for seniors to say grace. The Senior Center can provide a moment of silence during which individual seniors can vocalize their grace. That's my opinion.

[WolverineDG]

24. as long as the prayer is lead by the seniors & not by the program

who gives a flying f--- if they say grace or not? If public schools can have student-led prayer groups, why can't senior citizens pray over their meal?


dg

[earth mom]

27. Good for them. It's about time the fundies realize what the laws are. nt

[usregimechange]

30. Let those that want to pray do so but they may want the center to direct this for all

some religious folks are not content to pray, they want organizations and government to promote it.

[bobbolink]

38. What SOME do is make their "prayer" so loud and forceful that they are trampling on the rights of

those who don't believe in prayer, or simply want to practice their *own* form of prayer to themselves.

Some here don't get just how controlling and domineering some of these elder "Christians" can be.

[southernyankeebelle]

49. What the hell is the problem with prayer a moment in silence? Everyone

wins.

[crazyjoe]

51. who the F*** is going to tell a senior citizen they can't say grace?

F**kin STUPID!!

[WolverineDG]

68. Lots of posters on this thread

On a similar note, I've seen posts on DU that advocate taking children taken away from parents who take them to church because teaching religion to children is "abuse."

dg

[GoneOffShore]

70. Delete on reflection.

Because I don't want a pizza

[GoneOffShore]

72. Senior citizens who believe in an imaginary friend.... WTF?

Some of us have grown up and no longer believe in Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy or the Easter Bunny.

[The Straight Story]

76. Well, there is this:

"At present there are no known elementary scalar particles in nature. The existence of the particle is postulated as a means of resolving inconsistencies in current theoretical physics, and attempts are being made to confirm the existence of the particle by experimentation, using the Large Hadron Collider (LHC). Other theories exist that do not anticipate the Higgs boson, described elsewhere as the Higgsless model."

Lots of things are postulated to exist and are awaiting proof (like The Riemann hypothesis/Prime number theory) yet people go about acting as though such things were real and then try to prove them. Some things take more time (and money, and effort) than others.

Folks just assumed Fermat's Last Theorem was right, and it was eventually proven to be so, but based on general knowledge one could 'believe' it was until proven otherwise.

[GoneOffShore]

80. So how's that Easter Bunny hypothesis coming along?

Any peer reviewed papers?

[The Straight Story]

83. It is in the hopper.

But then, I am not talking specifics but in general.

There is more we don't know then we do know. So I keep an open mind - which includes thousands of years and millions/billions of observations by fellow humans.

Sure they may be wrong, but every myth has some factual root.

How about those coelacanths that no longer exist. Oh wait, they do.

Just because we did not see them did not mean they were extinct. But I am sure those who saw them were just mistaken.

Until someone else told them they were not. Or were they right all along? And why did they need someone else to prove to them what they already knew?

[starroute]

99. So you're suggesting that God might or might not be extinct...

And since He might turn up for sale at the local fish market any day, we can't assume that He's a myth?

Somehow that comparison doesn't quite parse.

[brooklynite]

92. Let's apply some common sense here...

The Seniors are not the recipients of the Federal funds; the Senior Center is:

If a representative of the Senior Center led a Prayer in the dining room, that would be a Church/State violation.

Any individual attending the Senior Center has a first amendment right to pray, vocally or silently, at any time. An individual or group has the right, on their own to say grace. They do not have any right to insist that the entire room to join them, or to expect anyone else to delay eating until the prayer is finished.

[foxfeet]

100. Thank you!

[Dorian Gray]

108. Exactly....

thanks for stating so clearly.

[DrDan]

115. bingo

[Gwendolyn]

134. Um no way!!

Your post is far too rational. Let's torment and embroil the elders in a controversy they likely couldn't give a shit about at this stage of the life game. Maybe people believe they have it too easy... that those seniors entering the twilight years NEED some agida to go with the boiled squash!! Thing is, half of them probably have their hearing aids turned down and can't even hear the damn blessing.

Some people really need to get some perspective... no matter what your beliefs, there is a point at which the ridiculous takes over. Glad you could cut through it so precisely and concisely.

[woo me with science]

93. Beware ye fascsts on the Left, as ye beware fascists on the Right. nt

[tammywammy]

96. +1 n/t

[Gwendolyn]

129. +2

[KonaKane]

101. Of all things to get concerned about....

This has got to be one of the dumbest. A bunch of old folks want to say a prayer at their meal? Wow. I think this requires a special congressional session.

[TK421]

110. It's getting pretty mental out there n/t

[habitual]

102. ok ok, so i see a lot of views here and understand most of them but...

I'm just imagining myself a senior here....

If I go down to the communal room to eat my dinner and, let's say i am chatting with a friend or two, and then let's say the christians decide they are gonna have their prayer...

If i can continue to have my conversation in the same way while they have their prayer fine. I don't think this is about their right to have prayer... they can pray, pray away.. woohoo....

BUT

If your praying intrudes on my right to quietly enjoy myself during dinner (similar to the legal 'implied warranty of quiet enjoyment a landlord gives to a tenant') then you better expect that I will be perturbed by that. Indeed, I don't care if you are a religious group, or a string quartet, or a couple of fighting old folks, if you disturb my ability to enjoy a quiet meal, you lose! and if you think you have a right to do it 3 times a day every day, then I would definitely backlash. There is no reason that they can't have their communal prayer quietly, i'm not even saying silently, but I'll respect your right to do whatever the fuck you want if you just don't make it so that everyone that doesn't want to has to be part of it (whether I'm participating or not, if it forces my attention to be there, you just made me part of it)

as for the legal mumbo jumbo, of course they can't stop them from praying, but they can stop them from intruding on others peaceful quiet enjoyment of their lives. Just like they can stop a brass band from playing in the dining hall every meal.... it's about the intrusion, and that's where the right comes in.

[GoneOffShore]

104. Well said. And that right NOT to be disturbed is the point that is being missed.

[DrDan]

116. "the right to not be disturbed" - and what guarantees that right to anyone

[GoneOffShore]

122. Your rights end where my nose begins.

[DrDan]

123. well . . . you can certainly hold that position - but that really means quite little

[GoneOffShore]

133. Step into my parlor and try that on. You'll be told to leave.

[DrDan]

135. your parlor - your rules

this was not in your parlor.

[lynne]

105. There is no such thing as a "Prayer Ban" -

- as there is nothing stopping anyone from saying a prayer any time or place they wish, either silently or out loud.

I don't normally say grace before every meal but the minute they tell me I can't is when I start saying grace. Out loud. Standing on a chair.

[Dappleganger]

109. LOL!

This thread is hilarious. People forget how old people speak so loudly and hear so poorly, driving each other crazy about the price of their favorite fiber supplement and just who shouted 'Bingo!' first.

[moriah]

127. Too true -- had dinner with my Grandma at the nursing home a few months ago.

I only get down to my hometown every couple of months, but I always go visit her and spend some time with her. She actually really likes it there, she was bored stiff at home, especially since she really couldn't get out much to even go to church... She enjoys being able to socialize with others.

But yeah, that dining room was louder than most school cafeterias full of teen girls shouting/squealing "OhMyGodTracy!LookAtThatPurse!ItIsSoooCute!"

[DrDan]

117. thank you - the sense of entitlement from many of these posters is staggering

[WolverineDG]

124. with a bull horn

the quickest way to get people to do something is to tell them they can't.

dg

[moriah]

126. And I'd support your right to do so.

Now, if someone told me what I had to pray, or who I had to pray to, then I'd probably get just as pissed off as you would if you were told you could not pray.

It seems pretty simple, doesn't it?

[Old Troop]

111. I guess my thought is that to non-believers it is just words

and not an attack on them.

[moriah]

125. I always thought the key was WHO was leading the "communal prayer".

Look at the rules in schools:

If it's a student who leads the prayer, it's allowed. If it's a teacher/principal/other authority figure, it's not.

At least, that's how it was done while I was in school. Even my mother, who is very Christian, got really pissed off when a vice-principal at my junior high pulled out his Bible and told me I should "pray for God to give me the strength to put up with" bullying. She immediately fired back with "God helps those who help themselves." But we had "See You At The Pole" days, because they were student-led.

So if the seniors are leading their own prayers, rotating out who says the blessing, or just designating one person at the table to say the blessing that day, that should be absolutely fine. If it's an employee of the facility who is saying the communal blessing, that's when it's overreaching IMHO.

[FLAprogressive]

131. great, more fodder for right wing chain emails

[Junkie Brewster]

132. So let them say grace

Just don't use my tax dollars for it.

[pipoman]

137. Let's see how long that senior center

continues to have the seniors show up.