You just helped to bail out Greece.

[dkf]

You are now funding the 2 months of bonus pay that Greek government workers get for showing up on time and the rampant tax evasion that accounts for almost a third of the Greek economy. I guess you can stand by the Greek workers in solidarity because you are giving them their lifestyles and their healthcare and their retirement.

That is because your tax money is the primary source of funds for the IMF.

Yay for us. We don't have healthcare but we enable Europeans to get theirs. Oh the irony.

[AllentownJake]

1. The IMF is an evil organization

Greece would be better served to drop the euro, default, and go back to the Drachma than to let those guys into their country.

IMF

Phase one, get bankers to load your country with tons of public debt

Phase two, create a crisis

Phase three, offer a loan on condidtions of austerity measures that involve selling public assets to private parties that will than increase the cost of public services to the populace.

Phase four, make the populace pay for the "help"

Phase five, after country has been devastated but loans are paid of start off with phase one again.

The IMF is about as disgusting as it comes. I'm more mad that I fund its existence than it is in Greece.

[Captain Hilts]

3. The IMF might not be the solution here, but it's not the problem. Tax evasion is a HUGE problem. nt

[AllentownJake]

4. That isn't my concern

I could give a shit what the Greeks do about their country. Frankly, the idea of bailing out Greece, Portugal, Spain, or any other nation on this earth is ridiculous to me.

Greece should take care of Greece and the rest of the world should butt the fuck out of their internal affairs.

The IMF and World Bank should not exist.

[TreasonousBastard]

9. That's pretty arrogant-- the problem isn't just Greece, but...

the problem of a weak confederation, which happens to be the world's largest economy, trying to figure out how to handle its troubled members. That confederaton is leading the planet in environmental, economic, and social concerns right now and it would be a great loss if it falls apart.

A lot of people around here might want to say "Fuck California-- they brought their problems on themselves" but you know that ain't gonna fly. It would have under the Articles of Confederation, though, and that's where Europe is now.

Greece could take down the EU, so they have to do something. And that something will necessarily involve us just because our economies are so interrelated.

[AllentownJake]

13. Europe's failure to organize a sound monetary union

Is not my problem. I remember thinking in college this was destined to fail when I read a summary of the structure. There was no enforcement mechanism for non-compliance of EU rules.

As for California, getting the US Senate or US House to vote on helping California with it's issues will be impossible.

Quite frankly we have been reasonably responsible in PA, and I see no reason to reward Califronia excess and create more moral hazard.

The problem is our economies are so interelated due to large banking interest. As far as I'm concerned, I'm willing to go through the pain of that system dying so if I have children and my friend's children will not have to deal with this global oligarchy that seems to be running over humanity and destroying people to save themselves.

The elites have made their bed, we all have to sleep in it, time for the elites to pay and be replaced.

[TreasonousBastard]

20. It's wonderful that you're willing to take one for the team, but you do realize that...

total economic collapse will cause untold starvation, disease, warfare, and general misery. You do realize that, don't you?

And then what happens? Do we go back to hunter gatherer or primitive agriculture? Or will human nature have changed in the meantime that we will magically arise from the ashes so much wiser and develop a grand new society leaving all the old problems behind.

Or, maybe we just start back reinventing what we have now, with far less to work with. And only the strong will survive.

[AllentownJake]

22. It is going to happen

You see, there is no fix to this system with the people currently running it operating it, because self sacrifice even a little to actually fix things is not in the cards for this group.

All that you say is happening on a routine basis in the third world due to this nonsense and has now moved to western shores at a pretty good clip, the only difference is the West is about to have to eat some of its created lunch at a higher clip.

I'm hopeful, we have an educated populace when these guys screw up. I see more chance for a 1776 than a French revolution here and in Europe.

[dkf]

5. I haven't seen anything about privitization.

It's not like they've got all those natural resources we can pillage. Using the IMF to bail out Greece is ridiculous anyway. It's supposed to be for less developed countries not members of the European union.

[AllentownJake]

7. Well they don't say we are going to sell your assets when they come in

They are here to help afterall.

The IMF is like a vampire, they have to be invited in, and they will say nice things at the door to be let in, once in they suck the life out of your country.

[Captain Hilts]

2. That's RAMPANT tax evasion. nt

[Renew Deal]

6. What do you have against other people being successful?

I don't understand people that make the argument that others make too much money. It just doesn't make sense.

[dkf]

10. Who is successful? What are you talking about?

Successful tax evaders you mean?

[EOTE]

30. Ummm, did you read the post before responding to it?

Because your response doesn't make much sense at all. As for the argument that others can make too much money? What's so difficult to understand about that? I think that the CEO of BP is overpaid. Apparently that boggles your mind.

[Hannah Bell]

8. horsepuckey. greek workers don't get two months of bonus pay; bonuses (for those who get them) have

already been cut back & will be further cut back with the latest austerity measures.

and since most of the income in greece goes to the rich, it's them doing most of the tax evasion, not workers.

i agree that americans (as well as europeans, including greeks) are funding the transfer of money to the banksters, however.

[dkf]

11. Will they really get cut? So what is the rioting for then?

[Hannah Bell]

12. the plan as it stands is: they will. and have been already, in fact.

as have wages, employment, & other benefits.

the condition for the loan is: cut social spending further, cut public jobs, cut benefits.


but continue to do the work of the right by spreading the meme of "fat cat greek workers"

[dkf]

14. They can do what they want but we should not be footing them when we are hurting ourselves.

And I think it is pretty much established that the American worker puts in more hours and gets less benefits than European workers.

[Hannah Bell]

29. "the American worker puts in more hours and gets less benefits"

that's the fault of american workers, not european ones.

the "playing one segment of workers against another" rightist meme also noted.

the banksters brought the crisis & reap the benefit of the bailout on the backs of ALL workers.

[Karia]

15. The so-called "bonus pay"

was an alternative to a living wage in many cases.

[KharmaTrain]

16. Yep...Let The Entire World Economy Collapse...

We can all be "happy" while we take wheel barrels to the supermarket to get a loaf of bread and bottled water. We'll live in a self-suffering utopia where selling apples and all money is worthless...barter will be king. Yep, this sure sounds like a wonderful world. And one that many would be living in if the economy fully cratered. Damn thing is the rich would still be rich...and you'd be eating at a soup kitchen. That'll sure show us!

[AllentownJake]

18. You and I both know

This thing is going down, it is just a matter of how long it is delayed. I know this, because of what you've posted in repsonse to things I've said.

The difference is you have hope they will figure something in the interim and I hold onto no such notion.

;-)

[TheWatcher]

19. The problem with the notion is that those who keep cheering these Criminals on are mistaken in the

notion that the "solutions" that are being implemented are for their benefit.

They are AT THE EXPENSE OF IT.

They aren't "figuring anything out" for the greater good.

They aren't "saving" us.

They aren't "helping" us.

They aren't "Bravely Saving The World from Disaster."

They are saving themselves.

We're Everyone Else.

It's A Big Club.....

And We're Not In It.

[KharmaTrain]

28. Unfortunately We Are In It...

At the bottom of the food chain. Literally. Unless you grow your own food, make your own clothes and can live in a cave, we're all "vested" in the fate of the economy and, unfortunately, those who game the system to our detriment. Of course those with the gold won't share unless they're forced to...and those on Wall Street will continue to hedge and game the system and have no guilt in doing so. They see it as their "job" to accumulate as much wealth as they can.

What we can hope for is to curb their lust for that job...to reregulate the casino and then find ways to create low cost loans or other incentives to energize small business...create jobs and competition to keep the "too big to fail" honest...or at least force them to actually compete.

I know...I'm dreaming...

[KharmaTrain]

23. I Have Few Hopes...

If the world economy crashes, there's nothing I can do about it, but hope my "lifetime supply" of Coke in the garage holds out. Yep...as I've said in the past, we're flat broke...and I'm not crazy about pumping money into governments or corporations who are "too big to fail". Yet, I still hear the voices of my parents, Depression kids, about a world where things did crash and how it hurt the poor (and the small middle class) more than the fat cats. Allowing currency to become worthless would destroy millions who have worked all their lives to save a couple bucks to have it disappear...the bail out have saved a lot of these people.

There needs to be a readjustment of the economy and priorities...and I'm honest in saying that I don't see it happening any time soon as our politicians are too vested in a system driven by corporate money. They're constantly fundraising as each re-election is yet another million or five...and then to get the votes, they constantly have to pander to the corporate interests within their districts and the people who "benefit" from the jobs they create. Thus we'll continue to see bail outs and looking the other way to all the immoral, if not outright illegal activities.

My hope is that there is some re-regulation and enforcement...but it may be too late. In many industries, I'd love to see the high get pulled down low as it will create new opportunities for smaller and more diverse businesses, but with a shattered economy...one where credit gets tighter than it is right now (which is damn tight), we're looking at a long time for any real recovery to take place.

So what's the alternatives? Have any ideas that can float in a world too comfy on cheap goods and credit.

:patriot:

[AllentownJake]

24. Ponzi Schems always collapse

Generally when the operator of the scheme least anticipates it and the perp never, never thinks it will collapse so stopping the Ponzi is generally impossible. With the worst of the ponzis, the perps actually start believing in the the Ponzi, like Berni Madoff did. That is where our business leaders and politicians are at, they actually believe the nonsense.

My hope is what we do as a people after the ponzi hits. Do we come together as communities or do we rip each other to shreds. That is where my hope lies, that our better angels take over.

I might be foolish in that hope.

[KharmaTrain]

25. Ponzis Need Fish...

The problem with the Madoff scam and many others like it was there was always someone willing to play the game...seeing those 15 or 20% interest rates and jumping in both feet. I saw a bunch of these "investments" over the years and always questioned how you could get such big returns? I was told "they have a track record" (right to your believing in their own con) and "it's high risk"...all but spelled out as going to the kino table and playing against the house. While I have a lot of compassion for many who didn't directly play the game...having their money in what they thought were secure retirement fund, etc., but there were a good deal of players out there who knew the risks and lost...now claiming they were "cheated". They're the first ones who will jump at the next scheme...and we know there will be one.

It's human nature to want more than the next guy. Rarely in "civilization" does a nation truly regulate or attempt to spread the wealth. I tend to think the post-war period to about 1980 was a truly unique time in human history where we came close, but in the end, the greed was too overwhelming.

I think we're both fools...we have to much compassion to be the "smartest kids in the room". Thank goodness!

Cheers...

[AllentownJake]

26. I was a shark for quite sometime

till I had trouble sleeping at night or looking my father in the eye.

Cheers.

[Prism]

17. I'm getting a gyros for dinner today

I feel it a fair trade.

[scheming daemons]

21. American taxpayers make up 18% of the IMF funds.... not the "primary source" at all

The truth is bad enough... no need to lie.

[pampango]

27. If they are poorer than me and need help, it's a done deal. If they are richer, I'll need a whole

lot of convincing. I'm not too comfortable with the "they are too lazy or spoiled to be worthy of help" rationale. :)