I think denying the Constitution rights of the people on the "communist lists" was a good idea.

[Statistical]

I mean if the government puts you on a list you must be dangerous right?
If you weren't dangerous you wouldn't be on the list.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism

Really when you think about it McCarthy was trying to protect people. Dangerous people could use rights like trials, due process, need for warrants, and right to legal counsel to "escape" punishment and hurt people.



If those people weren't Communists then the government wouldn't need to violate their rights. Sometimes it is the governments job to put safety above due process. Right?

So denying any or all of a citizen's Constitutional rights based on a secret government list sounds like good policy to me.

[Statistical]

1. .

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/05/05/AR2010050503670.html

[timtom]

2. Love your sense or irony.

My kinda post.

[timtom]

19. Make that

"sense OF irony."

[QC]

3. I am happy to see you becoming so pragmatic in your views. n/t

[sui generis]

4. yep lists for unprovable ideas instead of documentable actions

that's always a comforting thought.

If I were to accuse you of being straight, you could only admit it, deny it, certainly not prove it or disprove it in any meaningful way, and "going through the motions" doesn't count for anything either, viagra or not.

communism, babtists, organizational affiliations - none of those things make anyone anything until they take action in a way that documentably breaks the law.

Anyway, denying a citizen their constitutional rights and still claiming that they're a citizen is absurd. By definition a citizen of a country is someone who is protected by the constitution and bill of rights that define that country's legal structure. A citizen is not just a piece of meat that happens to have been born in some national jurisdiction with rights afforded at the discretion of secret government lists.

If somebody is on a list there should be ACTIONABLE criteria justifying it, and if there is indeed actionable criteria it should be actionable in the form of a warrant and open process of court, not some dimwitted gate agent with a fear of turbans.

[Statistical]

6. Yup the keyword being due process.

We suppress Constitutional rights all the time however it is done via due process. The govt makes a case on why the suppression is necessary and the citizen makes a defense. If the judge finds the reason credible and Constitutional it stands, if not it gets thrown out.

Is it a perfect system? Of course not but it is at least a check on rampant abuses of the individual.

Anyone who supports deny Constitutional rights based on secret lists without due process isn't progressive.
The very concept is antithetical to progressive values.

[AllentownJake]

5. Well we all know the government always has our best intentions at heart

I say we bring on the secret list!

[BeFree]

16. DUde

You post on DU? You're on the enemy list, duh!

[AllentownJake]

18. I must deserve it than

take me to the re-education camp!

[Statistical]

7. So nobody is going to defend denying Constitutional rights based on Bush Terra list?

McCarthyism for the 21st century.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/05/05/AR2010050503670.html
Or explain to me how this is better than the 1950s?

[socialist_n_TN]

8. Well, since some people who are card carrying members

of the Democrat Party (intentional irony in the spelling) hang around with Communists, it just makes sense to put ALL members of the Democrat Party on the list too. Right? I mean, if they don't hang around with Commies themselves, they've GOT to know somebody who does. Right?

Now on a more serious note, the aim of this legislation IMO is just exactly the above paragraph. The RW, through Leibermann is preparing for when they retake political power. They are TRYING to pave the way for a one party state.

[RaleighNCDUer]

9. Why don't you be honest and put this in the Guns forum? nt

[Statistical]

10. It is a due process issue.

Due process is due process doesn't matter what right is in question.

The larger issue is do we want the government to deny Constitutional rights without due process.
By your response I guess the answer is yes. You would have no problem with McCarthyism as long as he also kept the "Reds" from getting the gunz!

[RaleighNCDUer]

14. But the gunnies didn't have any problem with the 'no fly' list until

it was suggested that it might be used to deny listees access to guns.

Fucking hypocrisy.

[Statistical]

17. The idea that everything is monolithic or black and white is silly.

I have always opposed the no-fly lists. I opposed them when they were first enacted. I opposed them when the numbers swelled from few hundred to thousands to millions. I opposed them when it came out that the lists are so inaccurate that pilots and the late Senator Kennedy were on the list.

I opposed them when I learned that unless you are powerful or connected you have virtually no chance of ever getting off the list. No due process, no recourse, no appeal. The govt says you are on the secret list you are on it. Deal with it.

I oppose it now because the list is going from suppression of traveling on private carriers to suppression of due process.

If the govt can suppress one right without due process there is no logical argument that they can't suppress them all. Due process exists specifically to prevent the govt from doing exactly this. To see progressives support it just because right wingers don't or because it deals with gunz is sad, very sad.

Even if the right wingers are hypocritical should we support something that is blatantly Unconstitutional just because they don't like it. Really that is your argument.

[Morning Dew]

11. Amen. Purges are Patriotic! Lists for Liberty!

Your post was just what I needed this morning.

Very nice bite.

Thanks.

[Statistical]

13. Thank you.

I wasn't going to post it till I saw that laughably extreme poster on wikipedia then I knew I had to post it. Scary how fear of potential dangers (millions of people on the terra list) can cause people to invite/welcome real dangers (suppression of due process).

[joeybee12]

12. Correct because our government always knows best...I know they've

never made a mistake...ever.

[Winterblues]

15. Would it surprise you to know this has been going on for years now?

Republicans figured out a long time ago that this was the ONLY way to govern...