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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 11:24 AM
Original message
Greenwald: "How people spew total falsehoods on TV"
I appeared on The Rachel Maddow Show last night to articulate the case against Elena Kagan, and was then followed by Kagan friend and defender Larry Lessig of Harvard Law School, who spent five minutes (in my absence) trying to discredit me and what I said (video of the two segments is below). Although I would have preferred an opportunity to address the accusations Lessig was making about me through an interactive exchange, I was glad Rachel presented both sides of the debate. But there is one serious accusation that Lessig spouted that is so blatantly and inexcusably false that I feel compelled to highlight it, particularly since I was unable to respond last night. This is what Lessig said when referencing "this work had written when she wrote this piece for the Harvard Law Review" in 2001:

This is another area where Glenn has just flatly misstated the case. In his piece on Democracy Now on April 13, he said that in that article, she talked about the power of the President to indefinitely detain anyone around the world.

Now, that article was written before George Bush, before 9/11, and before George Bush articulated anything about this power. It has nothing to do with the power of the President to detain anybody. The power of the unitary executive that George Bush articulated -- this kind of uber power of unitary executive -- was nowhere even hinted at in Elena's article. Yet Glenn has repeatedly asserted that she is George Bush, and that is just flatly wrong.

If I were listening to that and had no familiarity with what I had written, I'd have thought: Wow, that Glenn Greenwald is either completely dishonest or a total idiot; how can he go around claiming that Kagan's 2001 law review article defended Bush detention policies when it was written before those policies were even implemented and had nothing to do with those policies? People questioning the Kagan pick obviously have no credibility. And that, of course, is exactly the impression Lessig's accusation was intended to create.

Except it's totally false. I've never said, believed or even hinted at any such thing -- let alone "repeatedly asserted" it. Lessig just made that up out of thin air and, knowing nobody was there to dispute it, unleashed it on national television. Kagan's comments embracing indefinite detention powers came in her 2008 Solicitor General confirmation hearing when answering Lindsey Graham: please see Law Professor Jonathan Turley's superb analysis on that exchange. Her position on detention was expressed there, not in her 2001 Law Review article, and -- contrary to Lessig' inexcusably false accusations -- I never, ever claimed otherwise. In fact, here is what I wrote about her 2001 law review article in "The Case Against Elena Kagan":

The only other real glimpse into Kagan's judicial philosophy and views of executive power came in a June, 2001 Harvard Law Review article (.pdf), in which she defended Bill Clinton's then-unprecedented attempt to control administrative agencies by expanding a variety of tools of presidential power that were originally created by the Reagan administration (some of which Kagan helped build while working in the Clinton White House), all as a means of overcoming a GOP-controlled Congress. This view that it is the President rather than Congress with primary control over administrative agencies became known, before it was distorted by the Bush era, as the theory of the "unitary executive." I don't want to over-simplify this issue or draw too much importance from it; what Kagan was defending back then was many universes away from what Bush/Cheney ended up doing, and her defense of Clinton's theories of administrative power was nuanced, complex and explicitly cognizant of the Constitutional questions they might raise.

...

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/05/11/lessig/index.html
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
1. Greenwald is the one spewing
a falsehood.

He's wrong. Lessig smack him down, and now he's trying to save face.

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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. Glenn addresses that too:

...

Worse, compare what I actually said in that April 13 Democracy Now appearance that he cited to what Lessig claimed I said there:

LESSIG, last night: "In his piece on Democracy Now on April 13, said that in that article, talked about the power of the President to indefinitely detain anyone around the world."

ME, Democracy Now, April 13: "And what little there is to see comes from her confirmation hearing as Solicitor General and a law review article she wrote in 2001, in which she expressed very robust defenses of executive power, including the power of the president to indefinitely detain anybody around the world as an enemy combatant, based on the Bush-Cheney theory that the entire world is a battlefield and the US is waging a worldwide war."


When describing her views on executive authority and detention power, I explicity cited two sources of information to know Kagan's views: (1) her 2001 law review article (which did indeed advocacte robust executive authority) and (2) "her confirmation hearing as Solicitor General" (which is where she described her views on detention powers, advocating exactly the view I attributed to her). To claim, as Lessig did, that I "said that in that article, talked about the power of the President to indefinitely detain anyone around the world" is blatantly false. She did that at her confirmation hearing, not in her 2001 article. If Lessig misread what I said in that one interview, that'd be one thing, but he claimed last night that I've "repeatedly asserted" it.

...
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. He addressed it to cover his ass. His statement
Edited on Tue May-11-10 11:33 AM by ProSense
is clear as day.

"And what little there is to see comes from her confirmation hearing as Solicitor General and a law review article she wrote in 2001, in which she expressed very robust defenses of executive power, including the power of the president to indefinitely detain anybody around the world as an enemy combatant, based on the Bush-Cheney theory that the entire world is a battlefield and the US is waging a worldwide war."


Video


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spooky3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #9
16. Actually, that is NOT clear, at least not to me. He refers to TWO
Edited on Tue May-11-10 11:51 AM by spooky3
sources of information about Kagan: (1) her confirmation hearing as Solicitor General, which occurred fairly recently; and (2) a law review article she wrote in 2001. His sentence is poorly constructed, because the clause describing the defenses of executive power, etc., follows the 2nd of these and could be interpreted to mean the clause referred ONLY to the law review article. But it could ALSO be taken to refer to the combination of info from the hearing AND the law review article. Had he spoken/written more clearly, this debate might not have followed.

I have read a lot of Greenwald's work (including his book on (mostly Republican) hypocrisy) and think it is very good, though of course I don't agree with him entirely. But some attacks on him here (as opposed to rebuttals of what he's actually said), seem over-the-top to me. One can support the Pres. and support the choice of Kagan while also acknowledging that progressives can legitimately have concerns about some positions that she has taken and what she may do on the court.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. It's only
Edited on Tue May-11-10 11:54 AM by ProSense
unclear if someone wants to defend Greenwald.

a law review article she wrote in 2001, in which she expressed very robust defenses of executive power, including the power of the president to indefinitely detain


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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. "And what little there is to see comes from her confirmation hearing as Solicitor General"
It is patently dishonest to exclude the first part.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. The part quoted was a reference to the 2001 article.
Edited on Tue May-11-10 12:03 PM by ProSense
Also, Lessig called Greenwald on is mischaracterization of Kagan's statement. Greenwald is intentionally conflating the two, and he's wrong on both points.

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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #9
17. Yes it is clear as day.
Greenwald offered evidence of two pieces of information with which we may glean Kagan's judicial temperament. !) Her 2001 article in which she expressed a robust defense of executive power, and 2) her SG hearing testimony in which she agreed that the entire world is a battle field and that we have the right to indefinitely detain anybody on earth.
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spooky3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. looks as if we had the same reaction.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. I was going to point out the same thing, but I'm afraid of arguing....
with Glenn's detractors because it gives the mods an excuse to lock the thread.

I just want to give people a chance to read Glenn's rebuttal.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. Rachel totally called him on that point. He needs to give up already. He's WRONG.
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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
2. But if you repeat it three times it is true
:sarcasm:
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 11:28 AM
Response to Original message
3. Poor Greenwald. Got caught on the wrong side this time. Now he's desperately covering his ass.
Rachel totally owned him and Lessig destroyed his case.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 11:28 AM
Response to Original message
4. LOL
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asjr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
6. It just might come to the place where
anyone appearing on t.v. will need to be wired with a Truth-O-Meter before speaking.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
7. K/R
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Arkana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
8. Is he really bashing Kagan because she favors a strong executive?
Am I going mad or is this EXACTLY what tons of Democrats were calling for during the health care fight?

Jesus, guys, the strong executive model isn't always a bad thing. See: FDR
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #8
14. No, he offered criticism of a 2001 paper
Edited on Tue May-11-10 11:57 AM by Luminous Animal
in which she expressed support for a strong executive that would take, from the legislative branch, control of the administration of government agencies. She wrote this in support of the Clinton administration arguing that the executive had a duty and a right to advance his/her agenda through government agencies despite the legislative branch of government. People, including Democrats, criticized this advance in executive power citing that fact that, though we may approve of the goals of the sitting executive, we may not be please with the goals of the next. This criticism proved correct after Bush took office. His administration took advantage of the Clinton administration's expansion of power within the executive office and expanded it even more.
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #8
24. It's dangerous in the wrong hands.
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rudy23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
11. Greenwald, Hamsher. Hamsher, Greenwald.
Welcome to the underbelly of the bus. Good to see everyone getting acquainted.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. lol ...reminds me of one of favorite Bushco era bumper stickers:
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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
12. Just keep on digging, Lord High Douchenozzle
You'll bury yourself in no time.
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Tarheel_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
15. Why so defensive Glenn? I've come to the conclusion that Greenwald...
is very adept at keeping his name in the news. That's all I'll say about that. ;-)
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #15
22. Well this thread is rather predictable nt.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
25. Here is something Greenwald wasn't aware of
when he made his bogus claim: KAGAN'S 2005 LETTER.... (to Sen. Leahy on executive power)

Rachel pointed it out to him: video

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