So taboo, that no public official would ever admit to it

[scheming daemons]

There's something that is so taboo, so distasteful to a majority of Americans, that those who are like this dare not admit it publicly because of the repercussions for their career, their family life, and their friendships.

Those that publicly come out and admit they are like this are sometimes:

- shunned by co-workers and acquaintances
- disowned by family members
- denied employment
- deemed unelectable for most public offices
- sometimes even physically accosted or even killed

When I came out to my parents that I was like this, my mother didn't talk to me for a month. Even now, whenever we talk, she peppers the conversation with scripture in a weak attempt to get me to change.

It is something only my closest friends know about me. Shamefully, I sometimes pretend to be something I am not in order to avoid public scrutiny or lose friends.

I am not alone. Public officials who are like me in this regard often stage photo ops to make it appear to the public that they are just like everyone else. They'll say things they know are not true about themselves in order to avoid losing their jobs.

With all this talk about "is she or isn't she?" regarding Elena Kagan, there is one thing that she could never admit to without immediately disqualifying herself for consideration for the Supreme Court.

Homosexuality? Goodness no.


I'm speaking of atheism.


I defy anyone to name one prominent political figure that has admitted to being an atheist and still managed to hold on to their position.


I long for the day when the Constitution's prohibition of a religious litmus test as a qualification for high office is actually true in practice, instead of just in theory.

[dionysus]

1. ooh. nice post.

:thumbsup:

[leftstreet]

2. You'll be struck by lightning for this

K&R

[scheming daemons]

3. Im 43 years old... if it hasn't happened by now, it's more proof in my corner

[Kutjara]

19. 48 here and I've been sky-fairy-free for about 35 years.

Best thing a Catholic upbringing ever did for me was smack all that religious crap out of my head. No lightening strikes so far. Not even a near miss.

[truedelphi]

37. Very much understand.

Still recovering former Catholic here myself.

[Kalyke]

39. You...

are not tolerant.

Yet, you call yourself liberal.

Many liberals believe in God or some other-named god.

If you don't want me to judge you, don't judge me.

[TransitJohn]

46. Nobody judged you.

He judged an abstract mythology. What are you on about?

[Ikonoklast]

47. In what way, exactly, did that poster 'judge you'?

He relates a personal belief.

Do you believe in Odin, or Zeus?

[kenfrequed]

81. we have gone on and beyond Irony

Considering the original thread of the post I think this is an odd thing to say.

[liberation]

92. Either I missed your sarcasm, or you missed the projection which fueled your post...

LOL

[Rebubula]

101. Obligitory

Sorry....followers of the sky fairy have been drawing blood for 2000 years. We have some reasons to 'judge' you as you have been doing to us for generations.

[verges]

202. I like your cartoon.

It sums up much of what is wrong with the religius RWers. However, while expecting respect yourself, you resort to a ridiculing term (sky fairy). Religion is a deeply personal belief held by many. You are certainly entitled to disagree, but to purposely get inslting is rude. And I don't doubt that your doing it on purpose. What your doing is comparable to telling someone that their wife or kids are ugly. It may be true (at least as you see it) but it's still rude. I actually agree with the OP. One's persnal religious beliefs should be just thet. Personal. A religious litmus test for public office is absurd. especially in a land that is supposed to be religiously tolerant. And that means tolerant to both the believer and non-believer. I would ask you to extend that tolerance. Because by not doing so, you condone the ridicule and disrespect of your own belief.

[Rebubula]

236. Actually...

...I could not care less about someone 'disrespecting' my belief as I have no belief. I would find it amusing.

I personally see religion and the adherence to a god or religious text as a mental illness. Once we developed microscopes that see at a subatomic level and telescopes that see to the center of the Universe, the need for a god to explain away all the mysteries of life faded away.

Moreover, the people that I am being rude to are perpetuating a system of belief that has destroyed whole cultures, brought us the Inquisitions and all of its wonderful tortures, created multitudes of wars, suppressed learning for centuries, oppressed billions of people that do not fit the criteria and overall been a bastard for 2000 years. And THAT is just Christianity.

Once they extend some tolerance - then maybe I will do the same.

[verges]

249. The people you're being rude to are the bulk of

the world's population. That's a great Dale Carnegie move. Call everybody a fool and mentally ill, based on one of their basic central beliefs, and then expect them to respect you for it! Genius!!

You're blaming religion. That's semi-fair. You can back that up with history. But don't hold God responsible for the construct's of man. That's kinda like saying medical science is bunk when Doc Spellbinder's Patent Medicine and Snake Oil don't cure your cancer! Organized religion and God are IMHO not the same thing at all.

And as for telescopes and microscopes answering all our questions... Well, I think most scientists would tell you that they pose more questions than they answer. We now know that we know less about our Universe than we could have ever imagined just a few generations ago.

And as for extending tolerance, I don't cvare if your an Atheist. That's your right and privilige to be so. I won't ridicule you or call you ignorant. If you run for office, that will have no effect on whether I vote for you or not. And, moreover, I think there are many, many other People who believe in God who probably feel the same. So why disrespect me and others like me who feel that way. Using terms like "Sky Fairy" and "Imaginary Friend" are terribly disrespectful and rude to people who have done you no ill will.

[AtheistCrusader]

141. You are your religion?

He made a comment about a religion, not it's adherents.

[Javaman]

158. How very tolerant of you. nt

[calimary]

174. Not sure I follow.

How did you get "you are not tolerant" out of that? Seems to me the poster was talking about what applied personally, not to anyone else. Certainly didn't appear to be any put-downs of you or anyone else here, including this life-long and very conflicted Catholic.

[Taverner]

242. Kalyke, you just proved everthing the OP said

[jberryhill]

244. I Hate Cooked Carrots

Just because I do not like cooked carrots, and you like cooked carrots, is not a statement about what, if anything, I think about you.

I'll eat them raw, but I really don't like them in cooking.

How is that a judgment of anyone who likes cooked carrots?

[snooper2]

59. I can relate, being "saved" at 13 years old

In a fundie church in Missouri :puke:

You know how fucking creepy it is to be sat down in the front of the pew with seven blue hairs screaming crazy shit and putting their hand all over you?

I hope in a couple more generations the "religous" will be a true minority. Today it's still "cool" to be one with "god"....That's the cycle that needs to be broken.

People don't want to be the odd one out so I think most people say "Yeah, I believe in God" without even really thinking about it. Kind of like when everyone was wearing the Lance Armstrong yellow bracelet. Shit, all they have to do is watch a show on the discovery channel explaining how insignificant our solar system is when compared to the Universe as a whole. Supernovas, black holes, new galaxies being formed 10's of millions of light years away. Take all that knowledge in then throw a stupid "god" concept around our measly little planet :rofl:

[LanternWaste]

63. Six of one, half a dozen of the other...

"sky-fairy" versus "bless your little heart."

Six of one, half a dozen of the other...

[JoshieR]

118. Too true...

Going to catholic school was the biggest influence in my change to atheism. Somehow, all the "theatrics" of a Catholic service just serve to highlight how completely ridiculous the whole idea of religion is.

[paparush]

123. Sky-Fairy-Free might just be the name of my next album! nt

[Kutjara]

137. I give you full rights to the name!

I'd love to hear that album.

[paparush]

142. Cool! I'll credit you in the liner notes "Thanks to Kutjara for rational thought and

artistic inspiration."

[Kutjara]

171. Thanks! I knew fame would be mine, one day. n/t

[LuckyLib]

176. Isn't it interesting how that Catholic upbringing sucks every last vestige of religious

interest from you once you understand the cult you had been a member of?

[Kutjara]

191. Very true. A decade left to the tender mercies of...

...Jesuits and nuns and I was inoculated against such claptrap for life.

[green917]

181. 1 of my favorite movie quotes about religion:

"Let's make a bargain. You keep asking God for help, and I'll stop when he shows up!" -Dorleac, The Count of Monte Cristo

[Warpy]

4. There is one

Pete Stark (D-CA)

However, it would keep those of us in the rest of the country out of office by itself, no matter any or all of our other qualifications.

And there is only one from California.

If you want to see people panic and look for exits and never talk to you again, tell them you're an atheist.

[mdmc]

10. nice find Warpy

:kick:
R

[scheming daemons]

15. My OP asked for "prominent"... and Stark is the closest thing to that

But he's not very prominent, let's admit that.

[mdmc]

45. agreed my friend

excellent post (OP).

So, if ya don't mind me askin - you don't think there is karma or a God / creator thing? Just nature?

[paulkienitz]

116. running as an atheist is like running as an independent: for long-time incumbents only (nt)

[dmallind]

252. More details here

He only came out after 17 successful elections

He represents one of the safest seats in the nation

He STILL only admitted atheism after a magazine threatened to "out" him if he didn't go first.


That's more an exception that proves the rule than one that violates it.

[Kerrytravelers]

5. There were people freaking out because Obama's parents were Atheists.

I saw one video from CNN regarding undecided voters where this woman was mad her husband was still undecided. She said only Christians should be president. When told by the reporter that Obama is a Christian, she said "His parents were Atheists. He is no Christian. He can't be our President."

Shameful.

[Hekate]

20. They were agnostics, but RW idiots can't tell the difference. Jeez. nt

[Kerrytravelers]

30. It's all the same if you don't luv Jeebus.

:crazy:

[JuniperLea]

162. Agnostics are cowardly Atheists...

:rofl:

That's me! Recovering Fundy!

[tavalon]

6. I see nothing to persuade me that you are wrong

People look a little askance at me when I say I don't celebrate Christmas because it isn't my religion. It's usually followed by the twenty questions that try to get me to "name that religion". Luckily, most allow for the "It's private" clause. The hilarious thing is I'm not an atheist, but just not being a Christian is enough to knock them on their asses. Atheism, if I could muster it, would definitely explode some heads.

While we're talking about the Christian Church and State (because let's admit it, there isn't much Muslim mixing with our government) mash up, why is marriage not solely a religious thing and all monetary, government things covered by something else. I've always been bothered by that.

[Syrinx]

7. .

I defy anyone to name one prominent political figure that has admitted to being an atheist and still managed to hold on to their position.

Pete Stark, I think.

[mdmc]

8. Question; Can a Jew be an atheist?

If yes, then I think I read that Ed Koch my have not believed in God.

[Hekate]

22. Yes. One remains culturally (or ethnically) a Jew, however.

Judaism and Christianity differ in some fundamental ways -- I mean more than the obvious.

Judaism is kind of tribal, and one is usually born into it. They don't go seeking converts. Judaism as a religion is about doing, it's not about "professing a faith." If you stop believing and doing, as a general rule you are still a Jew. My husband the Buddhist is still a Jew.

Christianity is open to everyone who professes the faith. Credo -- "I believe." There's baptism, of course, but on a day to day basis, there aren't 600 rules and regulations to follow. Christians actively seek converts; it's part of the faith. If you stop believing, you are no longer a Christian -- at all. Since I stepped off that path and started with the feminist spirituality thing, I finally had to admit: I'm no longer a Christian.

Hekate

[mdmc]

44. thanks for the reply

I'm a karmic Catholic myself..

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

103. My former boss is like that. Great guy too. -nt

[Kalyke]

41. "Jewish" is not a race - it's a religion.

But, yes, there are plenty of Semitic atheists and agnostics.

Arabic and Israeli, alike.

[smoogatz]

67. Judaism is a religion.

But "Jewishness" is a cultural and ethnic identity, inherited matrilineally. So it's possible to be a Jewish atheist, yes. As Adam Sandler points out, it's also possible to be half-Jewish, like Lenny Kravitz and Grace Jones. Put them together, as you know, that's one funky, bad-ass Jew.

[Egnever]

71. Not according to tradition

As being a jew is passed to you through your mother.

According to traditional Jewish Law, a Jew is anyone born of a Jewish mother or converted to Judaism in accord with Jewish Law. American Reform Judaism and British Liberal Judaism accept the child of one Jewish parent (father or mother) as Jewish if the parents raise the child with a Jewish identity. All mainstream forms of Judaism today are open to sincere converts, although conversion has traditionally been discouraged. The conversion process is evaluated by an authority, and the convert is examined on his or her sincerity and knowledge.<45> Converts are given the name "ben Abraham" or "bat Abraham", (son or daughter of Abraham).
Traditional Judaism maintains that a Jew, whether by birth or conversion, is a Jew forever. Thus a Jew who claims to be an atheist or converts to another religion is still considered by traditional Judaism to be Jewish. However, the Reform movement maintains that a Jew who has converted to another religion is no longer a Jew,<46><47> and the Israeli Government has also taken that stance after Supreme Court cases and statutes.<48>

[barbtries]

149. i converted to judaism in the 80's

in a reform congregation. the rabbi would not marry us if i wasn't jewish and i wanted my in-laws to accept me. my hebrew name is bracha miriam. i always tell people i am technically jewish, ethnically protestant, and for all practical purposes a pagan.

[madinmaryland]

50. I thought Ed Koch converted to Catholicism??

He has been a bit loony since he left office.

[mdmc]

175. I think I might have confused being gay with being an athiest

did he ever come out of the closet officially? I forgot..

[unblock]

54. judaism is a religion of identity, not a religion of faith. so yes, a jew can be an atheist

christianity is a religion of faith, so it's kinda meaningless to call yourself a christian atheist.

but a jew is someone who identifies themselves as part of the religion, marked by such things as observance of certain rituals, certain cultural rites, and the telling of funny jokes.

i am a jew because i was raised as a jew, i want mini-unblock to know what it means to be a jew, and because any future hitler will be determined to kill me as a jew because my mother is jewish.

but i don't believe god exists. it's just a part of the stories from the torah.

[liberation]

94. "religion of identity"? Sorry, that makes no sense whatsoever...

The minute you stop believing in God you stop being a Jew. I understand the cultural/ethnic aspects of it... but Judaism is first and foremost a religion.

I think it is more apropos to say that you come from a Jewish background, but that you are not associated with any religion (in case you are an atheist).

I am a former Catholic, and I understand the cultural aspects of my family/upgringing. However, the minute I stopped playing along the whole "invisible friend up in the sky who tells me what to do via other people who want to have power over me" I stopped being a catholic. I would most definitively not label myself catholic, if I don't follow the religious tenets of the Holy Roman Catholic Church.

[immoderate]

112. It's different for Jews. You are applying Christan rules.

Being Jewish is a tribal identity. I realized that when I read Isaac Asimov's books on the bible.

As my mother said to me, "It doesn't matter what you believe. The next time they come for the Jews, they'll take you."

Part of the core of my personality was being made aware of the holocaust, anti-semitism, and Jewish ethics. I haven't believed in god since I was old enough to distinguish reality from fairy tales. But I was rarely asked what I believed. That's a Christian thing.

--imm

[unblock]

114. christianity defines christianity only. don't let it define all religions

christianity made membership about faith and faith alone. so yes, the minute you stop believing in christ, you stop being a christian.

but judaism has never been about faith and faith alone. we are a tribe (13 tribes, actually), we are the chosen people.
judaism HAS some mythological stories, but it does not, as an entire religion, require its members to believe in it.

if you are born of a jewish mother, or you willingly convert(no small feat, that) you ARE a jew, regardless of your beliefs.

there are plenty of jews who participate in the major holidays, go to temple, keep kosher, and so on, yet do not believe in god. there's simply nothing in judaism that makes this inconsistent. it's only christianity that makes this concept seem bizarre because it doesn't exist IN CHRISTIANTIY. but it does exist in judaism.

[thesquanderer]

117. Chosen by...?

re: "but judaism has never been about faith and faith alone. we are a tribe (13 tribes, actually), we are the chosen people."

I know from your other post that you don't believe in God, so my question is, if you then say that Jews are the chosen people... Chosen by whom?

(Just curious about the apparent contradiction. Not a believer myself, either.)

[unblock]

136. you could say chosen by history, circumstance, hitler, ourselves, fate, whatever.

but the concept of jews as the "chosen people" is rather more complex than any notion that if we are "chosen" there must have been someone or something who made a "choice". it's best thought of that we simply see ourselves as distinct from others in some way. it doesn't mean superior or closer to god or anything like that.

it's a bit like a team cheer or something like that. gooooooOOOO chosen people!

[dem mba]

126. I go by the Nazi standard

because they would have gassed the atheist Jew right next to the devout Rabbi and not thought twice about it.

I consider myself Jewish and agnostic. I believe in virtually no aspect of the religion, but I cannot turn my back on the sacrifices so many of my ancestors made. It is part of my heritage, regardless of my belief in any deity, ritual or tradition.

[sakabatou]

87. One can be an atheist and keep the traditions.

[immoderate]

104. I'm a Jewish atheist.

It's a common thing. Some rabbis I know are atheists. There are secular synagogues around the country, about 150 I think. Hekate pretty much nailed it. For Jews, it's more about practice than belief. Nobody asks you what you believe. For me its a tribal identity. The way I talk and think, my language, my sense of humor, the things I eat for breakfast, are tells.

There is no literal interpretation of scripture in the Jewish tradition. That's a Christian thing, and fairly recent. It has affected some "modern" Jews though. But they dress like nineteenth century eastern Europeans. What's that all about? Surely the bible does not tell you to look like this.

I think Koch might be an example of a secular Jew. He'll probably go to shul on the main holidays. Might light candles for Shabbos. Could say there is a belief, but knows there is no interaction.

--imm

[closeupready]

9. Considering some of what James Madison wrote, I've never understood why

atheism is particularly difficult for a typical American to sympathize with.

[cliffordu]

11. GOT ME!!!!!

And I gotta say, Great Post!!!!

[Scuba]

12. Good post. I share your (dis)belief.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

13. Cecil Bothwell

Asheville city council

[scheming daemons]

14. I said "prominent".... but nice try anyway

;-)

[Solomon]

16. I agree with you 100%. That's why I was shocked when

Pete Stark won. That was a milestone. All the surveys and polls show that atheists are the most disfavored class of people in America.

I've hid my atheism for years and then a few years ago I started challeging people, my family, who are ultra religious, and some others simply because I got sick of being imposed on all the time with religious statements. When you become atheist, you can see that not one single day goes by without being subjected to it in one form or another. Religious people really don't realize how much they impose on others I guess because most people they talk to have the same belief in a man in the sky, and those that don't just hide it and put up with it.

After "coming out" for a year or so, I stopped dealing with it and just went back to hiding it. People get very negative on you once they find out.

[reggie the dog]

115. everyone in my family knows i am an athiest

but no one ever made a comment about it. even my mega church going aunt and uncle simply told me that if i ever did get curious i was welcome to come to church with them.

[demosincebirth]

17. Congressman Pete Stark.

[RedCloud]

18. I am still waiting for Mighty Hercules to avenge himself!

[GoneOffShore]

21. Anyone asks me I tell them I'm a lapsed Unitarian

And if they can't figure that one out, then they're really not worth my time.

[smoogatz]

69. I once asked a Unitarian what he believed in.

"One God," he said. "At the most."

[RaleighNCDUer]

146. LOL

[Odin2005]

23. And when we dare ask not to be treated like 2nd Class Citizens we are called "bigoted" and "angry".

or called "Atheistic Fundamentalists" by the "Moderate Religious" apologists.

[Kalyke]

42. Well, if you name-call or ridicule, then you are.

I don't believe in a sky fairy.

Respect my belief and I'll do the same with yours.

DUH!

[Goblinmonger]

122. So name calling = bigotry?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4934959#4935195

How dare you make fun of someone and call them names for their beliefs surrounding abortion. Or is that somehow different?

[Zhade]

180. Uh, where did you get the idea your beliefs are off-limits for criticism?

Here's the deal -- you are entitled to respect as a human being, and you have the right to your beliefs.

YOU ARE NOT, AND WILL NEVER BE, ENTITLED TO HAVE YOUR BELIEFS RESPECTED. Your beliefs are yours. Period. You have no right to expect others to respect them. None. At all. Ever.

And guess what? Not respecting your beliefs is not bigotry or intolerance. Disrespecting you for BEING a believer? Yes, that would be intolerant. Disagreeing with or even condemning your beliefs? Not even close.

You are not being persecuted.

[Zhade]

184. Oh, and an addendum -- we don't have a belief system like you do.

We don't have religion, we have the absence of it.

[spoony]

201. You're right

But you see what you get for it. I guess it's okay for atheists to demand people respect them, but the reverse is always met with their scorn and ridicule. It isn't true of all atheists, of course, but if some of them would learn some manners it would probably solve that whole "people not liking them" thing in their individual lives. They also like to tell you they don't have beliefs, in the middle of posting them, lol.

[darkstar3]

216. Read Me.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/darkstar3/1

[spoony]

221. And I haven't a single problem with that.

I would never post a reply to call you disrespectful for saying, "I genuinely and truthfully see no difference between today's worship of a single deity called God and the ancient worship of a pantheon of deities that are no longer believed in." Although I'd remind you that in many cases, those deities have modern polytheistic followings, however small.

The one part where your entry diverges from my experience is this one: "It's not that I or any other atheists who do this are trying to be flippant..." Well, see, I don't think you can make that statement for others, though I've never seen anything from you to doubt it applies to your conduct. It is flippant when terms like Sky Daddy, Sky Fairy, Invisible Friend, etc. are used, and it is clearly meant to be.

In short, I don't think most believers care if you think we're wrong or that our beliefs are equal to ancient Greeks or whatever, frankly I'd be thrilled if the comments were that substantial and civil. It's more when it's implied--or just explicitly stated--that as a whole we're uneducated, dangerous lunatics.

[RaleighNCDUer]

147. What's the difference between an atheist and an atheist fundamentalist?

The atheist fundamentalist talks about atheism in public.

[HughMoran]

24. Funny, 'cause I am non-religious and make fun of the concept of God all the time

I tell people that God is a contraction of "Good" and that's what I believe God is.

I don't consider myself an atheist and nobody else does either. I became indignant the time someone suggested I was an atheist. I told them "how dare you question my concept of God - at least I don't think it's some absurd concept of an omnipresent immortal being - you do realize the concept of God taught in the Church is completely absurd." That ended that, nobody dares discuss religion with me - I usually destroy their beliefs very quickly and they don't want to face the utter absurdity that is the concept of religion as contained in the bible.

I do, however, promote the community organizing that churches and temples do - I'm especially fond of how the liberal Jews treat community service.

I do agree that politicians must demonstrate an attachment to a religious organization - any organization will do these days, but whatever you do, do NOT call yourself an atheist and expect to get elected. It's absurd, though I happen to thin that atheism is a concept as absurd as any other religion. I am NON-RELIGIOUS and that suits me.

[RaleighNCDUer]

148. I don't get it. If you are non-religious and don't believe in the concept of god,

how are you not an atheist?

You do understand that 'atheist' means nothing more than having no belief in god(s), don't you?

[HughMoran]

173. But I do believe in a concept of God - I stated it

God is Good. My Go(o)d is the glue that prevents humans from destroying one another. It is the common humanity we all share that we call on under the most dire circumstances - just when it seems like all hope is lost. I believe in a force that bonds the human race together and I call it God. It's my connection with the metaphysical. It's certainly a lot more practical. I like my concept of God. It's Good. :)

[LiberalLovinLug]

155. God = Good & Son = Sun

I've never heard of your Almighty Good angle, but I do believe that the Son of God (Good) is a bastardization of the Sun. Ancient manuscripts from pre-Christian times indicate a lot of sun worship, which makes sense because the agriculture based societies relied on the Sun rising each day. The cross was origninally the symbol showing the division of four seasons. Many times you see old church architecture with the circle inside the cross. An old carry on of those pagan influences. The Sun as the central element of worship.



The church twisted these pagan religions into their own religion. By incorporating local superstitions into their own production it lent an air of credence. The same is done today in Haiti where the church incorporates voodoo practices. In Mexico the church learned early on that incorporating local superstitions worked better than trying to ban them.

I was brought up in an evangelical fundy household, and now today I am saddened by so much of my family that is fervently still worshiping at this false alter.

Religion truly is the bane of humankinds existence. But I also understand there are some who NEED a higher power to get through life. So I don't want to ridicule them. If believing in the big invisible old man in the sky, or the fairy, or the spaghetti monster works for you - go for it! Just please don't take over the country.

Its a gorgeous sunny day here and I'm heading out now to worship my god ;)

[HughMoran]

217. Thanks for adding a little historical perspective to this

It always amazes me how the 'Christians' coopted many of the Pagan symbols and holiday periods. The whole thing was sleazy and based on controlling the masses. Why anybody would want to subscribe to this manipulation is beyond me. At least Jews incorporate critical historical and cultural themes into their practice which isn't nearly as bad IMO.

[Zhade]

185. Atheism is not a religion. It is the LACK of religion.

How can acknowledging that I don't have a belief in gods that others do have be absurd? It's no more absurd than saying someone not interested in and having no political opinions is apolitical.

Atheism literally means "without god belief".

[HughMoran]

200. I really can't argue with you.

How we describe ourselves is a personal thing IMO.

Agnostics and atheists aren't born knowing what these concepts mean. One has to consciously decide to call oneself an agnostic or an atheist based on much thought. Perhaps it would be helpful if I said that I also consider myself an agnostic. I don't know the answer. Atheism is a step beyond that IMO and says "I do know the answer and I'm sure that God doesn't exist". That sort of surety reminds me of the surety of organized religion and I find it nearly as disturbing. JMHO

[RaleighNCDUer]

227. close, but not quite.

Virtually no atheists say that they are 'sure' that god doesn't exist. If they do, it is shorthand for saying, "I've never seen anything in my life that would indicate that god does exist, and am satisfied and comfortable with with that."

Sure? Hell, I'm not sure the sun will rise in the east. I'm not sure that rain won't burn me if it touches me. There is only one thing I am sure of, and that is there is no such thing as absolute certainty. The certainty of atheism is nothing more than the certainty that rain doesn't burn (excepting for certain circumstances of high acidic content).

I called myself an agnostic for years, then realized, finally, that it didn't make any difference. I live my life without any gods. Whether there is any theoretical construct which might allow for a gods existence that I am unaware of or not. All I know is that in the various guises with which I have honestly sought a higher power, there was always the niggling whisper "this is fucking nuts".

[K8-EEE]

25. I agree! Despite the odd "Christian Persecution Complex" they are coddled

NOBODY ever yells at any religious person about their beliefs, but say you're agnostic and watch people get ALL up in your face....then claim THEY are "persecuted" somehow by your seeing that THE EMPEROR HAS NO CLOTHES.

[Sebastian Doyle]

26. There is, of course, a huge difference here.

Atheism is a choice.

It's not a choice I have any particular problems with. I'm somewhere between deist and agnostic myself these days, after recovering from my Baptist upbringing.

All the same though, you chose your (lack of a) belief system. Nobody chooses their orientation. And so I don't really think it's a fair comparison, even if the same right wing jackasses may very well target both gays and atheists.

[MH1]

27. Can a person really choose what they believe?

you either believe something or you don't. You can't 'choose' to believe it. Maybe you can choose to try to convince yourself that you believe it. But you can't choose what you believe.

Well it's too late at night for me for this kind of deep philosophy. Off to bed ...

[RaleighNCDUer]

150. I don't think so, which can lead to some interesting permutations.

I went happily about my life without religion, never thought about it, for years. At one very low point in my life I was attracted to the music I heard from the Lutheran church across from where I lived which took me back to my childhood, so I started going to church. I found a community, but never really fit. After some years of seeking I went back to basics and converted to Judaism (reform, which by some reckoning it was never real anyway) and stayed with that for a decade, but eventually realized that it was not the Jesus thing that bothered me, or the oddities of the evolution of christianity, but the fundamental concept of 'god' I was never comfortable with.

So today, I am a converted Jewish atheist, or a convert to secular Judaism, however you want to put it.

I try not to think about it too much.

[barbtries]

151. i disagree

when it comes to spiritual matters, you MUST choose. there's a whole gamut out there. the only way you could forego making a choice about what you believe is if you remain ignorant and never think about it, ever.

[jberryhill]

215. Okay, let's make a deal

If you choose to believe an invisible elf lives in my yard, I will pay you a million dollars.

I ask no other belief, lifestyle, ethic, or anything else from you.

Just sincerely believe an invisible elf lives in my yard.

I have a brainwave machine that will tell me if you sincerely believe it, and are not just saying so in order to get the million dollars.

So, very simple, whenever you choose to believe in my invisible elf, come on over, I'll check you out on the machine, and pay you the million dollars.

Do we have a deal?

Okay - now... CHOOSE to believe it.

(incidentally, all you have to do is take the money out of his pocket)

[barbtries]

223. my beliefs are mine alone

and are not for sale. i do believe in spirit, and i do acknowledge that to do otherwise would make my life harder. that's my "cross" to bear - my daughter died before i did. things happened that were witnessed empirically to help me believe. but still i do acknowledge that my beliefs are only that: MY beliefs, beliefs which i have chosen. not facts, beliefs.

or to put it another way, fuck a million dollars. the turtle showed up on her 23rd birthday. the detectives and my sister were in the same flower shop at the same moment the day before we buried her (this was in los angeles miles and dozens of shops away from where my sister set out to get flowers for her funeral). water squirted from the washers in her sister-in-law's car for no explicable reason and as it turned out, "that used to happen all the time in her car."

Bekah and i will be together when i die.

as i wrote very soon after she was killed: "can i dare to believe? or bear not to..."

as it turns out, i cannot bear not to. that's me. you may choose otherwise.

[jberryhill]

226. The point is that you didn't choose your beliefs

...anymore than you can choose not to believe what you do.

As an experiment, try choosing to believe or not believe something for just thirty seconds, then switch back.

[barbtries]

229. i totally disagree.

it's a spiritual matter. there's no proof. i do and did and will choose what i believe in that respect. we see it differently.

[barbtries]

230. let me put it this way.

i have a friend who has been a member of a christian cult for over 15 years now. she didn't go into it believing all the tripe they've filled her mind with, she chose to believe it. she chose to take a leap of faith in what i believe to be a load of crap pushed by a bunch of grifting manipulative motherfuckers.

people's beliefs change all the time. they are not static and imo whether or not they choose to believe it, they choose them. i choose to believe that gawd was made up by man and not the other way around. my friend chooses to believe that man walked with dinosaurs or whatever crap her so-called church tells her to believe. when i was a little girl i thought gawd was a kindly old man sitting up in the clouds with a notebook putting marks by my name. my friend to this day believes that there is a gawd who actually gives a rat's ass about her personally.

that is her choice. can i prove she's wrong? no more than i can prove the "truth" of my personal beliefs.

everybody chooses their beliefs when it comes to something beyond what we can see, hear, taste, touch, or feel.

[jberryhill]

233. You are confusing two entirely different things

You are talking about "proof" and so forth, which is the discussion you think is going on here.

Saying that "beliefs change" has nothing to do with the question of whether they are chosen. Yes, they do change all of the time.

If we were talking about rational beliefs, then whether someone is convinced by "proof" has relevance, but that is not the topic here.

The topic here is faith - belief in the absence of proof - and you can't choose that.

It's very simple. Take me up on my proposition for only 15 seconds.

For 15 seconds, go ahead and choose to believe that I have an invisible elf in my yard.

It is not going to harm you to sincerely believe that for 15 seconds is it?

Simply choose to believe it, sincerely, and see how that works out.

You don't exert that kind of control over your mind. If you did, your mind would never change. It is as impossible for you to choose to believe a proposition of faith as it is for you to sit in a chair for 30 seconds and, whatever you do, do NOT think of a bear riding a bicycle. I'll bet you can't do that either.

[barbtries]

237. whatever.

i don't think i'm confused. i'll choose to keep believing that.
enough with your elves and so on.

[jberryhill]

238. Now that's just being closed-minded

...if you can't spare 15 seconds of belief.

Oh, well, your choice.
:)

(But I'll bet you end up with different beliefs in a few years)

[barbtries]

247. i am not closed minded

i'm working, and i'm tired. i could go on and on but doubt i would change your mind and you have not changed mine. perhaps we're just on different wavelengths.

[LanternWaste]

241. Every morning I choose to have faith

"The topic here is faith - belief in the absence of proof - and you can't choose that..."


Every morning I choose to have faith in my fellow commuters that they will adhere to many basic rules of the road and not decide to ignore them. Although I have plenty of evidence for that belief, I have zero proof. Yet I choose.

[jberryhill]

246. Now THAT is a dangerous faith /nt

[LanternWaste]

240. I've seen that happen quite often...

"try choosing to believe or not believe something for just thirty seconds, then switch back..."

I've seen that happen quite often in politics on DU alone depending on who or what organization makes a statement that is in line with or contrary to one's premeditated positions.

Person A believes in opposition to a particular bill being voted on. Politician B whom Person A voted for comes out to align himself with the bill. Person A now believes in supporting the bill.

[Solomon]

28. I went through the same progression. Baptist, deist, agnostic.

It's only a matter of time. lol I went a good ways in the "between deist and agnostic" thing. I actually don't like calling myself an atheist because I don't like the way people characterize it, like it's a flipside belief to religion. I think there's a big difference simply because I'm open to what the evidence shows me. For a long time I settled on agnostic because that feels much more comfortable. But after a while I just had to admit to myself, I really don't think there's an anthropromorphic God in the sky so I finally gave up and say okay I'm atheist. Now if you want to talk about what is meant by the concept of "God" things start to get murky. For example, there is one main point that I agree with religious people about. The universe is definitely a big mystery. If you feel better calling the mystery God, then have at it. But I don't resolve the mystery into a personality like that.

[truedelphi]

40. I am not at all sure that people "choose" their particular

Faith or lack thereof.

I mean, for one thing, people indoctrinate their children at an early age. Or people in crisis often become indoctrinated into a particular religious faith system in order to get help with drinking and drug addictions, from having a grown up inside an abusive household.

However, it is probably not all that hard to "pretend" to choose a different religion for whatever reason. My dad, he lied to the Catholic bishop, saying he was a Protestant, as he wanted to marry my mother. (In fact, he was agnostic, but if he had said that, the marriage would not have been possible. And I think it was one of the few lies he ever told.)

And he went with her every Sunday to Mass, which I think he found of interest sociologically. It didn't bother him morally one way or the other - though he used to laugh about how he would like to spend Sunday Am's in bed sleeping.

But a person who pretends to be straight if they are gay incurs a lot of suffering on many levels.

Why our society often forces that on people is a tremendous wrong.

[Soylent Brice]

49. atheism is a choice?

i would strongly disagree with that. from the second we are born no human being has any concept of religion or a god(s). in fact, religion is taught.

religion is the choice. the choice your parents are making for you.

what you're saying is the equivalent of saying 'anti-santa clausism is a choice'. it's not, people just figure out one day that's it's nonsense your parents told you.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

83. +1

The religious choose to believe in something they cannot prove not the other way around.

[Soylent Brice]

120. BINGO.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

105. Try this: choose to believe that the capital of Japan is Hoboken.

Come on. Try it.

[Soylent Brice]

121. lol

[Javaman]

159. Oh those poor Japanese people...

:rofl:

[Deep13]

132. It's not a choice.

I did not choose to be an atheist. My reading of the facts meant that I could either admit that there is no god or lie to myself. The only choice involved was not to be self-deceptive. You may as well say people have a choice whether or not to accept that a cloudless daytime sky is blue.

[awoke_in_2003]

165. exactly...

we didn't choose to believe that 2+2=4, and that the earth orbits the sun. It just is.

[Deep13]

133. The only choice was the decision to stop lying to myself.

I did not choose to be an atheist. My reading of the facts meant that I could either admit that there is no god or lie to myself. The only choice involved was not to be self-deceptive. You may as well say people have a choice whether or not to accept that a cloudless daytime sky is blue.

[pundaint]

143. For some Atheism is a conclusion, for others it is a natural baseline and the onus of proof is on

the believers. We're all just trying to figure it out, and diverse conclusions are likely.

In any case it's entirely personal business, and has no place in governance.

[jberryhill]

186. No belief is a choice

You can no more choose what you believe than you can stop the sun from coming up.

If I offer you a million dollars to believe something. Something completely innocuous. Would you choose to believe it?

I'm not talking about conclusions reached on the basis of reason, I'm talking about FAITH. Faith is belief without evidence, without reason.

You can't choose that.

Okay, here's my offer. For a million dollars. I want you to believe there is a little green man who lives on the dark side of the moon. His name is Fred. He doesn't ask anything of you, and he just hangs out back there, doesn't need anything from you, and doesn't care for visitors.

However, Fred gave me a million dollars to give to YOU if you simply believe he lives on the other side of the moon.

Sure, you can tell me you believe in Fred, but lets assume I have a machine that can read your true inner thoughts and, without error, tell me whether you believe in Fred.

Are you going to collect that million dollars - no matter how hard you try?

No.

You will WANT to believe, you might THINK you believe even, but when I check the machine - nope - every time it tells me that you don't really believe it.

And that is exactly the situation a lot of so-called Christians find themselves in. They are driven to convince themselves they believe. They figure if, like a Turing test, that other people conclude they believe, then it must mean they really believe.

But, you know what. They don't really believe, and they spend a lifetime trying.

The ones that try the hardest - become preachers.

[Zhade]

188. No, religion is the choice. All people are born atheists.

1. Atheism is the lack of belief in gods. NOT the belief that it has been proven there are no gods (though some atheists go that far)

2. To follow a religion, one must be taught its belief system and practices

3. NO ONE is born with knowledge of any religion. ALL religious thought must be introduced and taught after a child is old enough to be taught. Therefore, all babies are born atheist.

The default is atheism, i.e the lack of belief in gods (in this case, because babies literally cannot understand god beliefs).

[ThoughtCriminal]

29. Closet Atheists and Agnostics a bigger group than most realize

I suspect a substantial portion of the population view religion, and theistic religions in particular as nonsense. But they are very reluctant to make their views public - even to family. It's just too much of a hassle to deal with people who become obsessed with "Saving you" and assuming that non-belief is worse than devil-worship.

[Arkansas Granny]

61. You are probably right about that. Most believers have a really hard time

considering that a non-believer can be a caring, generous, moral and just person. Mention atheism and they automatically think of an evil person who has no morals at all. That's the main reason that very few people know that I am a non-believer. I'm sure it would have a detrimental effect on many of my personal and business relationships even though I have more "godly" traits than many self-proclaimed Christians that I know.

[jberryhill]

187. Atheism threatens other atheists who are trying not to be atheists

You know the type. "Committed themselves to Jesus" maybe ten times by now, because they keep getting to a position where they think they didn't "do it right" or for whatever reason might not have been "completely" a believer the last nine times.

They don't believe it. They are trying to force themselves to believe it. The notion of someone around who is comfortable not believing it, while they are knocking themselves out, threatens their entire tail-chasing emotional equilibrium.

And THAT is personally threatening, because it makes them uncomfortable not just with you, but with themselves.

[Orsino]

97. Plenty of people, I'm sure, are just going through the motions with their chosen religions.

What the OP is really decrying is the necessity of professing religious faith. Once you claim to be born-again Christian, for example, there's no limit to the amount of theft and murder you can really support.

So much of the behavior we see from politicians directly contradicts the tenets of the affiliations they claim.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

109. And it's easier to conceal than for any other persecuted group.

Maybe that even contributes for bigotry against it to outlast the other ones. Just speculating here.

[Lorien]

31. My parents were both Atheists when I was a kid, as am I now

I now call myself an Agnostic simply because I can't prove a negative. No one has ever shunned me, denied me employment or accosted me because of my lack of Faith.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

84. I call myself an atheist for the same reason

I cannot prove that there is a god so I choose not to. I couldn't call myself an agnostic because that would mean I believe there is something behind all of this, I cannot make that assumption. Nor can I prove that there is no god, so I guess I am an atheist by default.

[Kablooie]

32. Very true. I'm an athiest too and I'm sure God will reward both of us for it in the end.

[slay]

33. lol

amen brother. :rofl:

[Warren DeMontague]

34. I think a large number of Americans basically just pay lip service to religion and want pols

who do the same.

That's all they really seem to want- someone who will say they ascribe to a particular -preferably Christian- denomination, or just the generic "Christian".

They don't really give a shit if the pol believes- most of the time THEY don't really believe- they just say they do and they want a politician who does the same.

I was thinking about this the other day; I wonder how many people spend their lives pretending to be religious for their immediate significant others; like, they spend the first half of their lives pretending to believe for their parents, the second half of their lives pretending for their kids. Then the cycle repeats.

For the record, I 'came out' as an Atheist at about age 8. In the Midwest. In the early 70s. At least once or twice, on the school bus. Got some nice ass-kickin' from bigger kids for it, too.

At least, now, people don't completely freak the fuck out when someone says "I don't believe in God" out loud. I think, eventually, we will see openly Atheist politicians as well.

[Odin2005]

51. It's called "looking respectable", "keeping up appearances", or "What will the NEIGHBORS think!?!".

people pretend because it is the "socially appropriate" thing to do, and that is all that matters to some people.

Another reason is that being openly Atheist will mean that religious "charity" will not be given to you even if you are dirt-poor, staying in the closet is vital for economic survival in communities where the churches are the main safety net.

[Morning Dew]

35. Rec for a great OP. n/m

[KitSileya]

36. A tangentially connected thought struck me...

...when I read your post. The US is a country without much of social security network, so people are more dependent of charity. Much of this charity is run by religious organisations, and people join churches as much to get a community as to worship, it seems. Can the vehemence against atheism therefore be partly fuelled by a gut instinct feeling that to reject religion is to reject helping the community?

[lapislzi]

53. Common misconception among believers

Or, a false equivalence, if you will. I was asked by a believer how I could maintain a moral compass without belief in a deity. I likened it to an ice cream sundae--if you don't have the cherry on top, it's still a sundae.

My moral compass is internal. I know right from wrong and try to lead a morally upstanding life. You don't need a god to do unto others what you would have them do unto you.

That shut the believer up, but he never did become my friend.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

85. Or

I am a good and moral person because I want to be and it makes me feel good, not because it is expected of me by the deity.

[KitSileya]

248. I'm not saying that those without religion won't help.

I'm saying that perhaps people of faith feel that atheists threaten their community, and more importantly, them, because they believe that religious institutions should provide welfare, and less people contributing means more burden on them. In other words, I am putting the onus on people of faith here - that such a condemnation of atheists springs from their own (perceived) self-interest.

[jberryhill]

239. Religion causes community divisions

Unfortunately, religion has lost mooring to its Latin root term "-ligi-" the same term from which "ligament" is derived, which applies to a binding of things together.

[Kalyke]

38. Bravo.

Not just for great post, but also for not putting down those of us who do have faith.

I have no problem with your atheism as long as you don't call me stupid or claim I have a secret sky friend.

Don't ever turn into an evangelical atheist.

[Goblinmonger]

124. To me

your god is no different than the thousands of other gods before it that neither you nor I currently believe in. It does not exist. It is not real. It is just mythology no different than Zeus, Thor, Mithra, et al. There is no proof of your god just as there is no proof of Thor. We don't need Thor to explain thunder anymore and we don't need your god to explain anything either.

My guess is that I will have offended you by writing this even though I never called you stupid or said "sky friend" or anything similar. I don't think your claim of "evangelical atheist" (which is a bullshit label by the way) comes from anything other than the fact that atheists say what they think about your god while you feel free to say all you want without calling yourself a bigot or "evangelical" or "militant." You will notice there is no edit notification so this was written all at one time. We shall see if I am correct.

[darkstar3]

207. Read Me.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/darkstar3/1

[jgraz]

43. I'm out and I'm proud.

Anybody who can't deal with it is not someone I want to be around.

[PassingFair]

48. I will defy you! Chile's Michelle Bachelet.

http://smh.com.au/ffximage/2006/01/16/bachelet_narrowweb__300x424,0.jpg

Pediatrician, Single Mother and Atheist!

Although she HAS been a Minister (of Defense!)


:hi:

[madokie]

52. No doubt about it

early in life I was indoctrinated, not sure thats the correct word so bear with me, in the southern Baptist religion but by the time I reached 14 YO I couldn't make myself believe anymore. I like to refer to myself as non religious but in reality I'm Atheist. I have a self described 'Christian' friend who finds in the bible a conformation to do whatever he wants to do anyway. How does that work anyhow. Not to be tooting my own horn but from what I was taught and learned from reading the bible in those early years, "in my Atheism I'm a better Christian than he is in his Christianity."

[Nothing Without Hope]

55. Very good post. If all those people were more secure in their own loudly avowed beliefs...

would they be this violently -- sometimes literally, as you point out -- opposed to disagreement?

[DevonRex]

56. Very nice post.

:thumbsup:

[Nye Bevan]

57. This is very much an American phenomenon. It's different in other countries.

Nick Clegg, the leader of the UK Liberal Democrats, is openly atheist. In one of the Prime Ministerial debates he stated "I am not a man of faith". This never became any kind of issue in the campaign and this man is now the Deputy Prime Minister of the UK.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2010/may/05/clegg-atheism-attlee

Just imagine a US Presidential candidate stating in a debate that he is "not a man of faith". I think that would pretty much end his campaign.

[DavidDvorkin]

58. You are so right.

[NNN0LHI]

60. This is true

If I won't lie and tell my mother that I believe in her imaginary sky person she goes completely nuts.

I have learned to just humor her and tell her what she wants to hear.

Not much else you can do with older family members.

Don

Edit: I am convinced that if I told her that I was gay she would be much more understanding about that.

[OneGrassRoot]

62. K&R n/t

[BlueIris]

64. DAMN YOU, YOU SHALLOW, UNENLIGHTENED HEDONIST!

It's people like you who infringe upon the rights of the spiritual, a traditionally loathed, shunned, and oppressed group of victims.

:sarcasm:

[LanternWaste]

65. Self delete

[KatyMan]

66. My favorite (rather well known) quote on this...

"We are all atheists about most of the gods humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further." – Richard Dawkins

[nashville_brook]

74. damn good quote -- never seen it. will pass it on.

[Tafiti]

79. But it's kind of a ripoff of an even more well-known quote.

Though it's probably just two people riffing on an idea that's been around for a while, I think Dawkins just started saying that, whereas this Roberts quote has been around for 15 years or so:

"I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

-Stephen F. Roberts

[nostalgicaboutmyfutr]

68. You can say the same about Pot Smokers....eom

[darkstar3]

208. You could,

but it would be a false equivalency. I didn't choose to lose my faith. My friend DID choose to smoke pot.

[BeeBee]

70. I found it easier to come out as gay than as an athiest. n/t

[Taitertots]

72. If Obama doesn't appoint an Atheist to the supreme court...

Then it shows that he is a religious bigot.

Atheists are among the most under represented in government. If any other group of people were so excluded from government it would produce wide spread condemnation.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

86. I agree

but it will never happen.

[Solomon]

98. Had to find a way to make Obama an issue in this thread,

didn't you? What a load. So now he's a religious bigot?

[Taitertots]

130. When he stops supporting the religious domination of the supreme court,

I'll stop calling him a bigot for doing it.

If he under represented ANY other group in his appointments the bigotry would not go unquestioned.

[Zhade]

190. Well, yes, he IS a religious bigot -- due to his opposition to GLBT equal rights regarding marriage.

That's direct evidence of his religious bigotry, given that the bigoted view ("only between a man and a woman") comes from his religious beliefs.

[Solomon]

195. Wow. You think you know what Obama's belief's are

based on. Mindblowing. Do you really think that all homophobia comes from religious belief only? Wow.

And to Taitertots, let me ask you directly in response to your comment. If you were president, what athiest would you select to be on the Supreme Court? Can you name a qualified athiest? I'm sure they're just sprouting everywhere, right, lots of candidates to choose from. I'll let you suggest one if you want.

[Solomon]

196. Delete

Dupe

[Starbucks Anarchist]

172. He hasn't appointed any African-Americans yet, so he must hate them, too.

[Taitertots]

214. African Americans already have representation in the Supreme Court n/t

[Starbucks Anarchist]

218. That is highly debatable.

:rofl:

[Taitertots]

220. There is an African American on the Supreme Court already

What is there to debate?

[Starbucks Anarchist]

228. That he "represents" them.

[Crystal Clarity]

73. Thomas Jefferson? I don't think he admitted it though,

and there has been much speculation about whether he truly was an atheist or not. But here is a website that tries to make a case in the affirmative. http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/jefferson.htm

[GillesDeleuze]

75. Pete Stark, california

did alright as an atheist.

Now, before the Evangelical 1970s, there were a number of atheists/deists

People like Thomas Jefferson, TPaine, Ingersoll, etc.

[harmonicon]

76. Karl Rove - that's one

None of these people care about religion - they only care about hate, and claiming religion is one way to claim that they are somehow magically better than other people. That's all.

[Nye Bevan]

78. Rove better hope there's no God

I wouldn't want to be him (or any other member of Bush's evil cabal) waiting at the Pearly Gates. It's going to be automatic Hell without parole for the disgusting toad.

[liberation]

106. Karma and the afterlife as a reward are what assholes cam up with to keep the masses of good people.

... in check.

Most religious leaders know their beliefs are bullshit, but they are fairly well aware of the amount of shit and abuse normal people will put up with as long as they are certain they will get a "better deal" in the after life. Or that if they remain passive, the forces of the universe will come somehow to right things... thus allowing the bastards to get away with all sorts of stuff.


Religion besides being one of the oldest scams, is probably one of the most effective means of social control.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

178. As an atheist, I find your post offensive

Do you understand why?

[riderinthestorm]

198. Do you have a link definitively identifying Rove as an atheist?

Not just speculation, real facts.

Cuz as far as I can tell, he's not "out" at all which is precisely the OP's point. It's toxic to be out as an atheist in public service AND in many areas of the country (try Wheaton, IL where I lived for 25 years, even my kids were shunned for MY beliefs).

[harmonicon]

222. no link

It's just something I remember hearing many times over the Bush years (largely as confirmation that W himself didn't actually care about religion, as he was put into power by this guy). I think Rove just doesn't discuss it, but I don't think it's a secret either.

Here's the first google hit for +"Karl Rove" +atheist
http://atheism.about.com/b/2007/04/28/is-karl-rove-an-atheist-what-does-george-w-bush-believe.htm

[ladywnch]

77. at the tender age of 52 I finally came out to my mother

only to find out she also is an atheist!

I came out to some co workers one night at dinner and I thought they were all going to drop dead right there! oh my goodness the angst I triggered!!!! I have to say, I was really surprised by the reaction. I didn't think anyone would care.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

80. Love this post, best one I have read in sometime

I get all of the above as well. Thanks for this.

[liberalhistorian]

82. Your point is all-too-true, unfortunately. And yet, I feel that way

around here whenever I "admit" that I'm a Christian. On this site, you're better off admitting you're a Muslim or Jewish rather than Christian. So it can go both ways.

[Critters2]

91. The problem is scapegoating.

The problem is admitting to being whatever is the favorite scapegoat of the group you're with. Among the religious right and most Republicans, it's homosexuality. Among many (but not all) religious believers, it's atheism. On DU, there are a few scapegoated categories, and Christianity is one of them.

The goal should be to get past this whole us/them mentality, and embrace people regardless of what label they wear.

[Crystal Clarity]

99. I feel the same as you as a Christian on DU

BUT... Admitting it wouldn't stop me, or any other Christian from reaching the highest levels of politics. Tons of other things might disqualify us from prominent political positions, but not admitted Christianity. I think that was the OP's point. Atheism is a big taboo in this country.

[liberation]

113. An anonymous poster in an internet board disagreeing with your beliefs vs. having no representation

in politics and being shunned by society.

Yup, same thing.

[Crystal Clarity]

119. Intolerance here or anywhere

is always a bummer though, especially by folks that you agree with on nearly everything else.

That said, I get your point about not having representation. Catholics felt the same way before JFK.

[Goblinmonger]

127. I feel bad for you and your oppression.

It must be tough being Christian. Wait.....no it's not. In the game of cowboys and Indians, you're the cowboys. Get over yourself and crawl down of that cross.

[Goblinmonger]

134. A graphic that makes my point

[spoony]

203. Gee, who would've guessed

that would make an appearance...

(allow me to spare you from having to type your response: "Gee, who would've guessed YOU'D make an appearance "

[Goblinmonger]

206. Is it not on point?

As long as it is still being claimed, it will still make an appearance.

Hope you are enjoying your spring.

[Arkansas Granny]

138. I'm sorry that you get that reaction here. I see the negative feelings aimed

primarily at "christians", not necessarily Christians. There is a difference, but many people lump them all together.

[Crystal Clarity]

156. I know what you mean.

The bigoted, narrow-minded, self righteous, intolerant, right wing kind. The kind that turned me off from Christianity for the majority of my adult life. The ones who know 'religion' but not Christ.

It's too bad that we're all painted with the same brush here on DU though. Not by everyone, but there are a few. I feel bad for the poster who was the recipient of such unkind snark from one of the above posts. Especially when the OP is making a valid point about (when you come right down to it)...intolerance. The irony!

[EvolveOrConvolve]

179. Ah, I KNEW that Scotsman had to be hiding somewhere

And here he is!

[RaleighNCDUer]

157. Nonsense. Now, if you were to 'admit' to being a bigoted fundamentalist

who only believes in the parts of the old testament that support your politics, THEN you might have reason to feel that way. The fact is, just as with society in general the vast majority on this board are christians, if mere liberal christians at that.

Of course, if you start defending wingnut christianity here I can see people piling on. And I have to wonder about the 'Poor me, I'm in the super-majority' tone of your post.

[spoony]

205. Your DU demographics seem a bit off.

At least according to every self-selecting poll on the subject I've seen posted here, which is as close as one can get online. Not that it matters, as there's ample proof against your post in this thread, where all religious people regardless of liberal credentials are categorized as delusional idiots in numerous posts. I and most believers here acknowledge the OP's point in re public figures. Why can't atheists ever see the other side of the street though?

[RaleighNCDUer]

232. If you spout nonsense, people WILL pile on, and the liberal christians

will not generally (on this board, tho it differs in the real world) defend fundie wingnuttism. If that make YOU feel put upon, maybe it has more to do with your beliefs than about reality.

Every poll I've seen on this board shows atheists/agnostics to be over-represented - around 20%, rather than the 12% of the general population - and christians to be slightly under-represented - around 60%, rather than the 80% of the general population. And if, in some people's opinions, they are delusional idiots, they are at least the nice branch of the delusional idiots (but most of them won't vote an atheist into office either).

don't worry - you are STILL the majority.

[spoony]

204. Agreed, the OP's point is probably most valid IRL

Even though I don't know anyone offline who gives a carp about whom others pray to or don't. But on the internet, it's the total opposite. Anything even resembling religion, particularly the 'C' word, is gleefully mobbed with slurs and taunts. Everyone gets shit somewhere for something.

[darkstar3]

209. Do you know why?

Do you realize why Christianity is so often treated harshly here at the anti-Freeperville?

Does the Moral Majority ring a bell? The Religious Right? I know it's not nice, and I don't mean to slap you in the face with these things again, but you have to understand: Your religion has been co-opted, corrupted, and turned against its original faithful adherents by greedy and/or horny motherfuckers, and what's most important about that is that most of those motherfuckers are fairly right-wing.

We (liberals) are the backlash, the riptide, the undercurrent attempting to pull the political tide of this country back into the ocean of balance and moderation and away from the stony beaches of right-tardistan. As the backlash, we are naturally inclined to revolt against those things that have been used by the right.

[liberalhistorian]

231. Yes, I very well do understand, believe me.

And I share the anger against the RW fundies and their theocratic bullshit. What I'm trying to say is that we are not all like that, it's the vocal minority. There are many, many Christian social justice groups working to serve and love people, and not hypocritically judge and hate them. The non-fundie Christians are also disdained by the likes of the RW theocrats who, apparently, have never actually read Christ's words or God's hundreds of Old Testament commands to serve the poor and uphold justice, and we have to contend with them as well.

What I was talking about was being lumped in with the RW theocratic haters and the inability to see that we are not all like that, that many of us are actually trying to do some good in the country and the world, as we are commanded to do. The RW are the modern-day Pharisees.

[bongbong]

88. Ancient joke about religion

"Any religion without a hell isn't worth a damn"

[Greyhound]

89. There's an even 100. n/t

[mochajava666]

90. You are so right.

In my life, the majority of the time that I have revealed that I'm an atheist to a friend, that person will never talk to me again - unless they try to convert me. When that fails, goodbye.

I only reveal my atheism to my immediate family - my extended family would completely disown me if they knew.

Students and teachers in my grade school would make fun of the students that didn't get to leave public school early to go to CCD (catholic christian doctrine) classes. My whole life (I'm 48) I've never experienced more hatred and prejudice from Catholics than any other denomination. I have never had a catholic forgive me for not believing in Jesus Christ as my savior. Their universal viewpoint is that "why spend time with you when you won't be in heaven with me for eternity?" Is this a catholic thing or a fundamental religious thing?

Why does Christianity own the TV broadcasting every Sunday? That deeply offends me each and every Sunday.

[bongbong]

93. Hitler quote on atheism

"We were convinced that the people need and require faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out." - Adolf Hitler October 1933

[CanonRay]

95. Bravo!

Needed to be said, and thanks! :yourock:

[sui generis]

96. actually atheism is probably the baseline

it's just that there aren't many people willing to admit that although they are religious they don't really believe in "god".

If someone asked me to detail my religious affiliation as part of a run for office I'd tell them that ANY answer I gave would be irrelevant to running for office and call them out focusing on the utterly irrelevant, even "private" in a political campaign with real political issues.

I could hold my own, but this is what you get when idiots confuse puritan religious fanatic fundamentalists with the constitutional founding fathers and believe that they have a prurient interest in a candidate's personal animist psychoses.

[freebrew]

100. The US was on the road to enlightenment in the early 70's

Then came all of the Jeebus freaks, the hari krishnas, the moonies, etc.
I guess a lot of folk just need another mommy. Or some type of validation?

How about a karma chameleon?

I once gave a menorah to a morman friend as a joke. He got it.


Not a xtian, living in the bible belt, scientist...go figure.

[jberryhill]

189. And then.....

If Atheism leads to Disco, I'm going to church on Sunday.

[Enthusiast]

102. You should not have brought it up.

Better left unsaid.

[NoodleyAppendage]

107. I'm out of the closet and still employed...but I'm in academia where people aren't typically stupid.

Kudos to your post. It's high time that the religious idiots being on the receiving end of the equation.

J

[N_E_1 for Tennis]

108. Proud To Admit I Am An Atheist

Have been for many moons. Little background ... 58 yrs. old, raised catholic, love science, very pragmatic, business owner, artist, freethinker.

Question to the believers here ...

Why did God chose us as his "Chosen" species?

Our species has wreaked more damage to this planet than any other. His own creation, the Earth, if you believe.

In his image? Please let me believe, school me if not, and I don't believe, that god is better than that.

We kill each other for fun and profit. Other species do not.

We lie to each other. Other species do not.

We are greedy, greedy to excess, greedy beyond excess. Other species are not.

We cheat on our spouses, we abuse our children, we can not accept any sexual variance. Other species do not.

Yet, we are the "Chosen". Godlike, in his image. One that is all-knowing, all-merciful, all-everything, seems to make one mistake, choosing us.

Religion, Faith, whatever you choose to call it, has spawned more wars, led to more insurrections, fostered more dissent than any one thing in history, no matter, it all comes from God.

We deny any kind of "sameness" between us, we are nationalistic, regionalist, egoist. Yet we are the Chosen, godlike, in his image, school me.

As Atheists we are vilified, disregarded,pitied, and very prone to people trying to "save" us. Go ahead Christ-like people. school me.

[riverbendviewgal]

110. I excommunicated myself

I was raised a Catholic but realized I didn't believe the priest was God in that confessional booth.
I read about the popes of olden days and their very unholy deeds.
I questioned why my pastor would drive around in a Cadillac and why there would be all these gold things and expensive Church decorations.
My favorite priest, young and good looking, left the church and got married.
My best friend's brother was molested by priests when he was a young boy.

My mother would be late for church mass but still walk down to the front pew so everyone could see her new clothes, yet she was very unchristian the rest of the week.

My church would print out a paper showing who gave what for donations. I felt that was humiliating to those who could not afford to give much or that it was meant to humiliate those I could.

I also decided that birth control was good, sex before marriage alright and women had the right to decide what to do with their body, not an organization.

My son and husband died of cancer. I like to believe there is something after death, so I am not an atheist but feel there is something of an afterlife but that I can't know it till death comes.

[darkstar3]

211. Atheists can believe in an afterlife.

I don't really believe in an afterlife, but I entertain notions of parallel universes, non-localized souls, and a whole host of other sci-fi gobbledeygook. It's human. We all fear and mourn the loss of our loved ones, and this drives us to hope for eternal life where we can go and meet them. If you believe in an afterlife, but not a god or gods, you're still an atheist.

[Sheepshank]

251. Last gathering with my friends

and trying to talk deep around the fire pit on the patio....I've come to the conclusion reincarnation is absolutely probable and in my case preferable thinking to heaven and hell. But i consider myself an agnostic who doesn't have a set standard for such things, I may just change my mind next week lol

[reggie the dog]

111. hmmm I think if i did deep i can find some athiest socialists

or communists in power here in France..... really, but here over a third of us are athiest...

[Seedersandleechers]

125. I grew up cynical at a very very young age.

I've been an atheist even as a young child going to catholic school. I left home at age 16 and never have I bought or put up christmas decorations, but I smothered my son with gifts at christmas time and told him we were celebrating the winter solstice.

[shawn703]

128. Should qualify "prominent political figure"

Since there are quite a few outside US politics

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nontheists_(politics_and_law)

Culbert Olson, governor of California (1939-1943) is on the list too, but you're right that the list of American atheist politicians is pretty short.

[Christa]

129. K & Highly rec'd nt

[newtothegame]

131. How exactly would that be true in practice?

People would have to take an oath with a gun to their head that they didn't consider the candidates religious beliefs when they voted? :shrug:

[yellowwood]

135. Don't Be an Enabler

By pretending to believe in something that you don't believe in, you are an enabler. People whom you know who question religion might think there's something wrong with them. I know people who try very hard to stay religious. It's the "Emperor has no clothes" syndrome. It is so freeing when one finally faces the truth--there is no magic helper. When bad things happen, it's not because there's an entity "allowing" it to happen. When good things happen, it's the good luck of the draw.

So say it. It will help other people.

[Hissyspit]

164. I do remember the 'freeing feeling' when I let all of the myths go.

[Autonomy]

139. Feeling forced into silence about a belief is not a great imposition

Sorry, I just don't have a lot of sympathy. What practices are imposed upon by feeling incapable of openly declaring one does not have a religious practice? I have plenty of beliefs I cannot mention, some that I cannot even mention in anonymity on this website, and I don't feel oppressed by it. Not being able to be open about all aspects of my worldview has never taken food off my table, kept me from getting a job, caused me to be a victim...

It just sounds to me like Atheists want to be a religion. I guess I am just not bitter enough to 'get it'.

[GillesDeleuze]

145. nope, you don't 'get it.'

Atheists don't want religion.

They want the secular democracy we are all promised to live up to its name.

No religious test for public office.

[Autonomy]

245. So you don't hold a Born Again Evangelist's religion against him?

If not, you are rare for an atheist, in my experience. What you are describing is not a 'test', it's merely people's preferences. You want people to change their preferences for you, which is a futile and ultimately hypocritical request.

[JNelson6563]

140. So true, so very true.

Every group thinks they are the most discriminated against. I say no one has the atheists beat. No one.

Julie

[AtheistCrusader]

144. I have never hesitated to speak my mind about my lack of religious belief.

No one else does, why should I? Granted, I don't hold public office, but it's never been an issue at any corporation I've worked for either.

Some family members have made comments, but by no means have disowned me.

[sledgehammer]

152. Nick Klegg, UK's Deputy PM and Lib Dem leader...

...has publicly stated he personally does not believe in God. His wife is a practicing Roman Catholic and is bringing up their children accordingly.

Of course, Klegg started to become a bit more religiously-inclined as the election neared, but he has never gone back on his assertion that he does not believe in God.

Some quotes:

"I have enormous respect for people who have religious faith, I'm married to a Catholic and am committed to bringing my children up as Catholics.

"However, I myself am not an active believer, but the last thing I would do when talking or thinking about religion is approach it with a closed heart or a closed mind."

Some articles:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1268103/General-Election-2010-Atheist-Nick-Clegg-puts-Christian-values-Lib-Dem-campaign.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7151346.stm

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

160. I wonder how an openly atheist person "brings his children up as Catholics".

"I don't believe in God, but you must! Please believe in these false statements. Do this for your Daddy, mmmkay?"

This weird situation is in fact part of the oppression described in the OP. The UK public, being less nutty, actually admits Clegg being atheist himself, but he felt bringing his children up as atheists would be "too much".

[sledgehammer]

161. Well, that's a choice between him and his wife

His wife is a practicing and believing Catholic, and they have jointly decided that's the way to bring the kids up. He shouldn't be forcing his beliefs on his wife, just as she shouldn't on him.

As for the kids, they'll grow up and eventually decide. Having a successful, caring, atheist father will help them see a side that many people don't, and allow them to more comfortably choose that option.

I respect him for holding to his beliefs, and I leave his family decisions between him and his wife.

[WinkyDink]

153. Maybe there hasn't been a prominent political figure who was/is an atheist. Nothing to reveal, IOW.

[damntexdem]

154. Atheism, or agnosticism, or even the 'wrong' religion can do this.

But it cannot begin to compare with the oppression of GLBT people.

[darkstar3]

212. I'm not so sure about that.

A 2008 poll showed that a homosexual was far more likely to be elected to public office than an atheist. There was also a recent study done by the University of Minnesota that showed atheists to be the most heavily disliked group in American opinion.

LGBTers are at least somewhat represented in government. Not exactly well, but they have representation nonetheless.

Yes, as an LGBTer myself, I'm quite aware of the awful crimes and persecution commited against people of non-heterosexual persuasions, but your claim isn't exactly accurate.

[DesertFlower]

163. i admitted it to myself and others

about 2 years ago. it was an evolution. i was born and raised catholic.

just a few weeks ago i was talking with my cleaning woman and i mentioned that i was an atheist. she seemed shocked and said "you are"?

i think the problem is people think if you don't believe in god -- if you have no one to answer to -- you're a bad person. they don't realize that you can be honest, charitable, kind, etc. just because it's the right thing to do and makes you feel good.

BTW. i read that obama was an atheist before he became a christian. i tend to think he's a christian in name only for political reasons.

[The_Commonist]

166. I've never believed in any gods...

...and I've never had to lie about it.
I was raised without any kind of religion whatsoever, and now at 47, I pretty much only hang around with people who are the same.

Of course, I've only lived in San Francisco and New York City, and it's close to impossible to find anyone in my pretty large circle of friends who is the least bit religious.

Just lucky, I guess...

[nebenaube]

167. chimming in..

It dawned upon me that the crosses on graves were once swords that marked the graves of warriors. At that point, I realized what the 'Mark of the Beast' was as well as what the beast is and who the prostitutes were...

[GreenEyedLefty]

168. I can't tell my mother I'm an atheist. :(

[gleaner]

169. This is another thing that is nobody's business .....

It is personal, belongs to the person who does or does not believe and harms no one. I agree with you. If we kept religion our of politics and public life we would all be a lot better off.

[Arugula Latte]

183. Unfortunately, though, U.S. politics is often a contest to see

who can cram the most references to Gawd or Jebus into their speeches and press conferences.

[Peacetrain]

170. I am a Christian.. and you know, I can't think of anyone either..

And a persons religious belief system should not exclude them from being able to run for office.

EDIT to add...In Europe I think there is not the same prejudice faced by atheists.

[brewens]

177. One of my best friends and his daughter are more than happy

to tell anyone they are atheists. The never had any trouble career wise that I know of. Of course, they may have caught a bad break that they don't realize was caused by it.
Rod loves to wear his hockey jersey with "Satan" on the back. That's a Miroslav Satan jersey from when he was with Buffalo. He's not a Satanist but he's been known to tell people that.
I'm an agnostic but generally keep my mouth shut about it. I tend to let people think I'm a Christian but I don't make any effort to make them think that.

[Arugula Latte]

182. To my fellow atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are.

I think many people who call themselves religious secretly harbor deep doubts about the silly mythology they've invested so much in. That is why people who proudly admit they don't believe in supernatural superstitions are so offensive to them -- it just confirms their deepest, most represssed suspicions.

Actually, I've been pleasantly surprised since I've joined Facebook at how many of the people I know just come right out and answer the "Religious Beliefs:" line with "None" or "Atheist" or something similar.

[NNN0LHI]

243. I think humans may be hard-wired to believe in this kind of stuff?

http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/04/04/neurotheology/

Are humans hard-wired for faith?

POSTED: 11:54 a.m. EDT, April 5, 2007

NEW YORK (CNN) -- "I just know God is with me. I can feel Him always," a young Haitian woman once told me.

"I've meditated and gone to another place I can't describe. Hours felt like mere minutes. It was an indescribable feeling of peace," recalled a CNN colleague.

"I've spoken in languages I've never learned. It was God speaking through me," confided a relative.

The accounts of intense religious and spiritual experiences are topics of fascination for people around the world. It's a mere glimpse into someone's faith and belief system. It's a hint at a person's intense connection with God, an omniscient being or higher plane. Most people would agree the experience of faith is immeasurable.

Dr. Andrew Newberg, neuroscientist and author of "Why We Believe What We Believe," wants to change all that. He's working on ways to track how the human brain processes religion and spirituality. It's all part of new field called neurotheology.

[westerebus]

192. Name a prominent Taoist?

How about a prominent Sufi?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

193. Those are how much percent of the US population? And atheists, how much?

I rest my case.

[westerebus]

197. So minorities shouldn't count?

Religious or not, if they don't represent a large enough percentage of the American population?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

219. Wow. Strawiest strawman of all strawdom.

Straw off.

[westerebus]

225. So you can't defend your position? n/t

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

234. Some time ago, I took my daughter to the zoo.

One of the chimps was making very funny noises and a crazy dance. Then he shat on his hand and quickly threw feces at us. We managed to dodge it and got away from the cage. The chimp was still making his noises. We ran into a biologist who worked for the zoo. He told us, "Did you know those chimp sounds are actually a primitive form of language?" I asked, "Really? Then what's he saying right now?" The biologist answered, "He's saying, 'I won the debate.'"

[Initech]

194. Oh man the majority of my friends and I are atheist.

So it's not really that difficult to let it be known. I think even the super-fundie relatives on my dad's side know about it.

[wildbilln864]

199. kick. nt

[LAGC]

210. Error: you can only recommend threads which were started in the past 24 hours.

Well said. Times are a changing though. I have great hopes that within my lifetime that one great taboo will be shattered, that atheists will finally be able to come out of the closet and openly serve this country that they love, and be accepted for who they are.

[RagAss]

213. I put my atheism in people's faces....but I'm a bit nuts.

[The Damned]

224. Excellently Written!

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[ej510]

235. I've been Agnostic for a year. My immediately doesn't mind at all.

My sister attends church on Sundays. My family knows I am a good person so they don't care.

[Sheepshank]

250. Raising agnostic teen and pre teen kids.

they don't steal, or kill. They don't lie (a lot), they stick up for friends, they befriend those on the 'out'. They are polite and respectful. We do not practice any religion. We don't talk about god or jesus. We don't read the bible. I live in a very mormon area...tons of fundies here. We, as a family appear more agnostic than anything else. As a family we occasionally talk about the the magical thinking that is religion...history of many ancient, controlling, magical thinking. In school, they have been told some pretty harsh and disrespectful things about their soul and the lack of any ability to be 'good' without religion. But the reality is that they have already dispelled the idea that a moral compass is ONLY created by magical thinking. They know that decency is inside, inherent in a person, and religion guarantees nothing. I hope 'reason' continues to rattle around in their heads as they are away from home more often and around those that firmly believe that magical thinking is necessary to be a decent human being.