Soldiers ‘joked about killing women and children’

[Echo In Light]

An Iraq War veteran who served with the company shown in the "Collateral Murder" video released by whistleblower web site Wikileaks says the military trained him to dehumanize Iraqis.

In a videotaped interview released Wednesday, Josh Stieber told The Real News Network things that troops did on a regular basis in basic training, including chanting during marches, were the start of his loss of faith in the US military.

Josh Stieber enlisted in the army after graduating high school. He was deployed to Baghdad from February 2007 to April 2008 with the military company shown on the ground in the Collateral Murder video. He was granted conscientious objector status upon his return home from Baghdad.

In an interview with Real News Network senior editor Paul Jay, Steiber said he was alarmed in basic training when the chants "even joked about killing women and children."

STIEBER: One that stands out in my mind is—it goes, "I went down to the market where all the women shop/I pulled out my machete and I begin to chop/I went down to the park where all the children play/I pulled out my machine gun and I begin to spray."

JAY: That's as you're marching.

STIEBER: Right.

JAY: So this is, like, an authorized chant, you could say.

STIEBER: Yeah. I mean, the training, they focus on the physical aspect, or, you know, they say that's the challenging part, but then they slip all these psychological things in along with it.

JAY: Well, that's got to be shocking for you to hear that the first time.

STIEBER: Yeah. And so I started writing home to religious leaders at my church, saying what I'm being asked to do doesn't really line up with, you know, all these religious beliefs I had. And I would get letters back with explanations that I needed to have more faith in God, or this is just how the military works. The common mindset was that Iraqis were always referred to as "Hajis" in a pattern he said dehumanized people, making it more difficult for soldiers to empathize with civilians.

http://rawstory.com/rs/2010/0512/soldiers-joked-killing-women-children/

Collateral Murder
http://collateralmurder.com/en/index.html

[seabeyond]

1. there will be an outcry on the dehumanization in this manner, as there should be.

we dehumanize in so many areas in society so we dont have to have conscious; yet, we will justify the dehumanization of other areas, because it works for us.

[kenny blankenship]

2. Oh I'm sure it was all said or chanted or sung or whatever with irony

A gross exaggeration of tone or content is the tip-off that they surely don't mean what they say, and in fact intend to do or endorse the opposite of what their words would seem to mean. They practice the bayonet thrust, but the twist in the guts finish comes with an implied wink.

[wtmusic]

3. Have more faith in God, while you're spraying your machine gun.

Damned atheists are ruining it for the rest of us.

[unhappycamper]

4. This was repeatedly brought up in the Winter Soldier hearings in 2008.

http://ivaw.org/wintersoldier

[Echo In Light]

5. Thanks for including that, UC

[BreweryYardRat]

6. Dehumanizing the enemy -- acceptable tactic in WWII when the enemy didn't hide among civilians.

Not acceptable in this war. Find the people who don't understand that the times have changed and cashier them.

[seabeyond]

7. can you routinely kill though, without dehumanizing? there are going to be innocent loss of life

regardless, that is war. can your brain, subconscious, handle the deaths without dehumanizing?

it is easy to say dont dehumanize, but as a human i ask, how do you routinely kill and see death, without putting up the wall to protect self.

[Robb]

10. No, you can't. Interestingly, you can't "save" without doing it, either.

Ask emergency responders about the quality of their locker room humor.

It's being around death, not being a soldier, that forces you to dehumanize people.

[seabeyond]

11. there is that. good point. i was thinking others areas we do it too, as i

was typing.

thanks.

[Echo In Light]

13. Do you honestly think ER personnel are trained the same/for the same things as soldiers?

[seabeyond]

14. of course not. that would be another good question. are there different

levels, or with respect are we simply walling off emotion, but it isnt really dehumanizing the person. or is using language to create a hate the difference in the two.

i happen to believe that words matter. i see the same thing happening with the female population by men, thru their language, as i see the soldiers with language about the iraqi's. not kill.... but a disrespect, which takes further.

i see it as a huge issue

i was just exploring different angles, levels, thought

as i say... words matter

[w8liftinglady]

19. I was thinking the same thing-if you "care",you get burned out

as a nurse fot 26 years,I served a six year stint in one of the busiest,high acuity ICUs.we would lose 2-3 patients a day-that is reality.We lost 5 pregnant women-after they all miscarried their babies in our adult icu.You either joked,used drugs,or lost your fucking mind....sometimes all three.
I wonder what went through my son's mind when he had to kill people.He wont talk about it with me.I have a picture of him with an Iraqi boy who was later killed by an IED.That's when the mind fuck began with him.War is a dirty,horrific thing that should be reserved for immediate threat.This is the reason so many soldiers try to kill themselves when they get home.

[reggie the dog]

27. you can routinely kill other soldiers trying to kill you without

dehumanizing them, my father served in Vietnam and said he had respect for the enemy soldiers, he just had to kill them or be killed, he also hated being ordered to destroy "commie" villages and kill everyone (women kids old people) inside them. he has nighmares about the faces of kids they shot and blew up. He told me killing an armed soldier is difficult enough but their is the whole hunt or be hunted thing that does not exist when it comes to civilians.

[seabeyond]

28. i know i seem wishy washy on this issue, but i would like to listen to soldiers from du.... military

there perspective on the mind think and the difference.

i think you are right.

[reggie the dog]

29. i just went by what i understood from my dad

telling me what it was like for him to be a soldier in vietnam

[seabeyond]

30. ya

i know. i paareciate hearing this. this is what i had always heard soldiers in the past say.

[sabrina 1]

25. I see no justification for dehumanizing anyone, even an enemy.

If the war is in self defense, the only time war is justified, then you simply defend yourself against those who are attacking you. That would be motivation enough for anyone. I think war is just an excuse for some very disturbed minds to justify their insanity and sad that normal people sometimes buy into it.

What possible benefit is there in dehumanizing humans? It can't be done, anyhow. No matter how you try, the are always going to be human. Some are bad humans, true, byt that ought to be enough.

Why become what you are fighting? I really hate this notion that you cannot win a war without using these awful tactics. And maybe we could stay out of wars if we stopped killing other people's citizens?

[Echo In Light]

8. .

[Soylent Brice]

9. K&R

[FedUpWithIt All]

12. K+R

x(

[greencharlie]

15. oh are we STILL in Iraq? Afghanistnam too? nt

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

16. The military tries to dehumanize the people it want's killed.

They reduced to non-human status. Despite the movies and comic books, most people are reluctant to kill other people. To think that the person you're to kill as a person much like yourself, with family, lovers, aspirations, beliefs, faults, etc, makes it tough on average people to pull the trigger, release the bomb, or set afire.

It's much easier (theoretically) to kill someone, or a great number of someone's, if they are "The enemy", "Commies", "Slants", "Gooks", "Ragheads", "Fanatics", "Terrorists", or my favorite from my days toting an M1 "Targets".

Especially if they are women and children.

“What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy.” - Gandhi

[alcibiades_mystery]

17. How do you kill innocent women and children? "Easy. You just don't lead 'em so much."

...

[-..__...]

18. Ain't war hell?

Git sum... git sum.

[Echo In Light]

20. Bump

[Echo In Light]

21. .

[femrap]

22. That's what

Training Camp is....it trains typically young males to become murderers. And if the young man has any kind of conscience, this training will cause lots of problems down the road.

I don't see how these young people buy into all of this stupid 'patriotism.' It's crap. And it's a damn shame if young ones see enlisting as the only way out of poverty. I'm ashamed of this nation.

I'm sick of these damn wars. Why don't we just arm all the women in Afghanistan and let them take of these asshole Taliban freaks who make their lives miserable?

After all a burqa is a great place to hide a weapon. Wonder if our soldiers have thought about this???

F*cking religions, f*cking corporations, f*cking testosterone, f*cking nukes. See where it has gotten us...a planet living on the edge of an abyss.

[Echo In Light]

23. Very well put, femrap

[amborin]

24. K&R

[Mojeoux]

26. Kick and Rec

I feel this one like a punch in the stomach.
Damn it, Fucking ..............

:grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr:
:nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: