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davidswanson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 07:41 PM
Original message
Withdrawing Withdrawal Comment, and the Unpeaceful Peace Movement
The peace movement, and the progressive blogosphere, can be very unpeaceful places, and it seems like I've spent the past day or two arguing with more people than I've communicated with pleasantly. This is not totally new, of course, but in this case I deserve a good share of the blame for it, so there may be an opportunity to learn a lesson.

The first thing I did was use a reckless headline. I titled an article "Obama Scraps Iraq Withdrawal." Maybe I wanted people to read it. Maybe I was used to the overwhelming indifference to articles about Afghanistan and didn't realize that Iraq was still a hot topic. Maybe I'd grown used to people accepting imprecise headlines when they were about Bush. Primarily, however, I recklessly picked a headline related to stories I linked to in my first paragraph in order to write on a related theme. In any case, I got literally hundreds of angry complaints, all of which were correct. Obama has not announced that there will never be any withdrawal from Iraq.

I doubt very much that there will ever be a complete withdrawal from Iraq unless intense pressure is applied in Iraq or here or in both places. And I think we are being gradually prepared for just how slow and incomplete the withdrawal will be. But I should have made the headline accurate. My article was accurate. And Obama has scrapped his most recent plan for withdrawal, replacing it with a slower one.

The Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA) requires complete withdrawal of all forces by the end of next year, and withdrawal from all towns by last summer. We have not complied in full with the withdrawal from towns or other aspects of the agreement (which is essentially a treaty by another name), and our generals have made statements indicating that they don't view the SOFA as binding. The SOFA has a number of other problems, in that it was approved by the Iraqi parliament only on condition that the Iraqi people get to vote it up or down. They've been denied that vote, a story that has not been reported. And the SOFA was never ratified by the US Senate, as is required by the Constitution if it is -- as I believe -- a treaty given a different name. The constitutionality of legislating three years of war without Congress is also dubious. So is the legalization of the continuation of an illegal war by means of a treaty made with an occupied government.

Many people have misunderstood my concern here. They believe that by questioning the validity of the SOFA I am making it easier for Obama to violate it. But my position is that the occupation should end today. I believe we're violating the UN Charter and any code of human decency every instant we remain in Iraq. And if the occupation has to last another 19 months, and if the SOFA can then help to end it, I'm all for using that lever. But it is a fair point that I have not made that clear and that there is a conflict between questioning and employing the SOFA.

The point I've been trying to make is a different one, namely that because the Congress played no role in creating the SOFA it will, in fact, find it more difficult to object if the president chooses to violate or renegotiate it. Congress has since affirmed its support for this treaty that it was never asked about, but because the power of the purse has been pretty well taken off the table, it's not clear what teeth that affirmation has. Some will recall that Congresswoman Barbara Lee introduced a bill rejecting the SOFA as unconstitutional, and not because she hoped to prolong the war. Rather, because she hoped to keep war powers in Congress, given the centuries old knowledge that war powers in the hands of a lone individual will guarantee lots of war.

Of course, President Obama "scrapping" his withdrawal plan is not even strictly new news. He campaigned on a promise to begin withdrawal immediately, pulling out one or two brigades a month for the first sixteen months. He hedged about "non combat troops" and listening to generals, but I don't recall hearing a satisfactory explanation for why that plan was scrapped. Instead there was to be a withdrawal by August 31st leaving 50,000 troops and who knows what other personnel behind. What has been repeatedly delayed and has now been delayed anew is the start of that massive withdrawal. We are now supposed to believe that some 40,000 troops will be withdrawn in the space of two months. I'm sure this can be done, but it is noteworthy that we've been told for almost a decade that any such withdrawal would require many months to accomplish. And, of course, this is all subject to "conditions on the ground" which appear to favor further delays.

When and if those delays are announced, Congress will simply be counted on to pick up the tab. Congress will not be asked. We will not be asked. The Iraqi people will not be asked. It is this situation, in which we are all simply relying on the good will of a president who seems easily swayed by his generals, that I have tried to highlight. This and the presence of major permanent military bases and a so-called embassy the size of the Vatican. Those and the ongoing military and oil interests of our industrial-congressional-presidential complex.

The second thing I've done is criticize the direction that some in the peace movement have taken. I try to do this in a constructive way, but am not always very good at that. OK, I suck at it. We're all passionate about this, which doesn't help. And the result is a lack of trust and additional misunderstandings. Many peace groups, which -- yes -- contrary to many questions I received today, actually do exist, have been lobbying congress members to cosponsor a bill to create a nonbinding requirement that the president create a timeline (any timeline) for withdrawal from Afghanistan. Now, I would support this if it weren't at the same time as a vote to fund an escalation of the war and weren't being proposed as an amendment to that bill (the amendment may or may not happen, in the end). My first objection is one of limited resources. Groups have focused on that bill instead of on opposing the funding. My second objection is that congress members may use their cosponsorship of an antiwar bill as an excuse to vote the wrong way on the funding. My own congressman has already tried a similar excuse, letting us know this week that he voted for a similar measure last year, but refusing to say he'll oppose the funding.

Now, some activists have already persuaded their representative to oppose the funding and are asking him to sign onto the nonbinding timetable as well. That I enthusiastically applaud and admire. And when I stop and think carefully I realize that I would much rather have people pushing the timetable bill than doing nothing to try to end the wars. It may provide an excuse for some members, but most of them would find some other excuse if they had to -- they're pros at that. And any anti-war activism is good anti-war activism. So, I'm going to scale back my attempts to sway people away from pushing bills. But I do want to clear up some misunderstandings.

Here's an article by a peace blogger Josh Mull devoted entirely to disagreeing with me on all kinds of things. This is the result of my own failings to communicate amicably with him and others, leading him to blog about points of confusion that would have been straightened out if he had felt inclined to ask me about them, as well as points of legitimate disagreement.

Mull begins by disagreeing, as most people do, with my proposal that we tell congress members that we will vote against them in November if they keep voting to fund wars. This is so unpopular a position that when a group of us local activists recently met with our congressman, one gentleman assured our representative that we would vote to reelect him no matter what he did, and then asked how we could persuade him to not fund an escalation. The problem is that there are not too many other ways to do it. We can organize, educate, shame, or harass him. We can promise to reward and praise him. But we lack a decent communications system, and he will do what the Democratic Party tells him to do as long as the million dollars they give him for advertisements can be expected to win our votes. I agree with Josh and favor using all tools of persuasion, and I agree that a congress member who's retiring can't be threatened with votes, but I strongly disagree with Mull's notion that threatening to vote for someone who doesn't fund wars is "extremist." Even an official who agrees with us on some domestic issue will not have the funds to pay for it if he's funding wars. Nor will our world be safe to live in. We could fail to persuade with our threats, be forced to follow through, and elect someone worse. But we have no other leverage with which to turn an incumbent into someone good. If they knew we were willing to replace them with someone worse, they'd treat us very differently.

Josh goes on to argue that the nonbinding timetable bill is the way to go because of what it would impose on the president. But that's to imagine it passing the House and Senate and the president himself, and to forget that it's not binding. Most proponents of maximizing the Yes votes for it do not imagine it passing and treat it as a form of rhetorical pressure -- which is essentially all it is even if passed. And I support it, except for thinking that maximizing the No votes on the funding is a stronger message. And Mull suggests that if I object to the SOFA I should approve of the nonbinding timetable bill. There he's right, and I do prefer that legislative actions be taken by our legislature.

And yet I'm confused as to what argument we're having and why, and realize that I probably started it. So, I'm going to continue the mad push for peace with a little more care. I'm thrilled that people actually care whether Obama is withdrawing from Iraq or not. I appreciate them correcting anything I get wrong. I'm glad people are lobbying against the war in Afghanistan, and I'm glad they're passionate about the approach they're taking. And as we've all told each other endlessly for years, but don't always learn: if we could focus on persuading the people outside the movement to join it, our internal disputes would fade away along with all the goddamned militarism.
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 07:51 PM
Response to Original message
1. Kick.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 07:54 PM
Response to Original message
2. " My article was accurate. And Obama has scrapped his most recent plan for withdrawal...
replacing it with a slower one."

No your article was false.


The Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA) requires complete withdrawal of all forces by the end of next year, and withdrawal from all towns by last summer. We have not complied in full with the withdrawal from towns or other aspects of the agreement (which is essentially a treaty by another name), and our generals have made statements indicating that they don't view the SOFA as binding. The SOFA has a number of other problems, in that it was approved by the Iraqi parliament only on condition that the Iraqi people get to vote it up or down. They've been denied that vote, a story that has not been reported. And the SOFA was never ratified by the US Senate, as is required by the Constitution if it is -- as I believe -- a treaty given a different name. The constitutionality of legislating three years of war without Congress is also dubious. So is the legalization of the continuation of an illegal war by means of a treaty made with an occupied government.

And the above claim is silly.



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billh58 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. +100
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inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #9
12.  - 100,000

:shrug:
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-14-10 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #2
28. No, your's is.
See how effective an argument that is.

Now would you care to elucidate. You got two big old thumbs up for your outstanding piece of refutation that was as devastating as "So's your old man".

Say. Have you ever, ever, disagreed with anything, anything, that the administration has done?
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-14-10 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #2
35. With your track record, I wouldn't go posting corrections to other people
:rofl:
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 07:55 PM
Response to Original message
3. knr
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 08:07 PM
Response to Original message
4. You are not the one at fault and you are not the cause of the argument.
You became the target because you said something perceived by others as negative about Obama and, as usual, they attacked. It is not your fault.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. "You became the target because you said something perceived by others as negative about Obama"
The OP was called out for misinformation. He admits it was misleading and still says it was accurate, which is still dishonest and manipulative.

You are free to defend the OP for making a false claim, but understand that others are free to call him on it.





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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. I meant what I said and I said what I meant.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. So did I.
Not everyone falls for distortions.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-14-10 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #7
17. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-14-10 08:15 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. "I have seen you edit quotes to mean the opposite of the speaker's intent, " Bullshit. n/t
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-14-10 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #7
29. Many do. Look at the thumbs up you got.
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Dystopian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
8. KandR.
peace~
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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
10. You are a bigger man than most. You really didn't start anything other than a discussion
we need to be having. We can all disagree on the specifics. Here's to hoping we get out of this thing intact, we are all allies. :toast:
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inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 09:06 PM
Response to Original message
11. K&R &...

:yourock:
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 09:47 PM
Response to Original message
13. Recommend. My understanding is (and President Obama has said repeatedly) that we're talking
about withdrawing "combat" troops. The plan is that something like 50,000 "non-combat" troops will remain.

WTF is a non-combat troop? If they're in the military, they are ultimately combat troops. State Department, not so much.

GET OUT NOW!!!

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davidswanson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. supposedly that happens by 8/31
but, if that happens, then what happens next?

and yes the naming is BS
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-14-10 01:05 AM
Response to Original message
15. whether or not your headline was accurate or wrong...
the fact is we are not leaving iraq or the middle east until the oil and natural gas is gone. we will never tear up the carter-reagan doctrine.
the death of the peace movement started the day they ended the draft and died the day george bush left office.
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-14-10 02:16 AM
Response to Original message
16. "Obama is the peace candidate" was like dogma for some folks. You violated a
Edited on Fri May-14-10 02:19 AM by McCamy Taylor
deeply held religious belief with that title. Sort of like writing "Pedophile priests seek psychological help" which should be a good thing but which will offend those who believe that priests can never be pedophiles.

In fact, we know that no real peace candidate will ever be elected president of this country. The Military Industrial Complex would not allow it. When GE the Corporate Welfare Queen of military spending started endorsing Obama, it was clear that he had no plans to scale back our various wars. He just wanted to shuffle the pawns on the board a little to make it look like a new game.

"War is good for business. Invest your son."
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-14-10 08:19 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. Obama campaigned on adding troops to Afghanistan.
Irony: People making false claims to portray the President as a liar.

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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-14-10 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. McCamy hasn't posted to her journal for more than twice
in the last month and you just "happen" to pick her to jump on?
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-14-10 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Do you have a badge? n/t
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-14-10 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. No. And in spite of the way you act, you aren't either.
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-10 06:53 AM
Response to Reply #20
36. I consider P.S. to be part of my fan club! Along with Ms. C. Wouldn't be DU w/o them.
:hi:

Been writing a lot of fiction lately, but I'm gonna have to get into political gear with the elections coming up.

:dem:
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-10 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. You're one of the posters/journals I always try to read.
Edited on Sat May-15-10 06:19 PM by cornermouse
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-14-10 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #19
23. Have to thank you for trying...
sadly, I really don't think there's any point. There's an agenda to be pushed, facts be damned.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-14-10 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #19
31. Golly. Read the OP.
It is about Iraq. Talk about false arguments.
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bos1 Donating Member (997 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-10 07:23 AM
Response to Reply #19
43. this is true nt
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-14-10 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #16
24. and daughter....
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-14-10 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #16
30. McCamy. Did you get your last quote come from Jefferson Airplane?
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-10 06:57 AM
Response to Reply #30
37. It was an old political button from around 1967, w/ a pic of LBJ (smiling).
Wish I could find a photo of one on line. It made a huge impression on me when I was 8. Probably contributed to my Marxist tendencies.

There is a similar line in "Alice's Restaurant."

"Be the first one on your block to have your boy come home in a box!"
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MadBadger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-14-10 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
25. Have you asked the mods to delete your other post?
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-14-10 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Did you read this post or did you stop at the title?
Edited on Fri May-14-10 12:50 PM by cornermouse
Again. Quit trying to order people around.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-14-10 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #27
33. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-14-10 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
26. good post
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-14-10 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
32. Highest Recommendation. If all posts
were as cogent and reasonable as yours, DU would be a better place. Truth requires a flak jacket.
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mirrera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-14-10 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
34. Your hard work should buy you some slack...
I make up my own mind and I skipped your post after reading part of it, mostly because I was too depressed over the oil spill to handle more bad news. I know you are coming from the right place as far as I am concerned based on your previous articles. Keep your head up... you have money in the bank as far as I am concerned.
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pecwae Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-10 07:15 AM
Response to Original message
38. Kick since it's too late to rec. Thanks. nt
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MilesColtrane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-10 08:26 AM
Response to Original message
39. Since you are essentially reposting your original thoughts with a different headline...
I'll repost, too.

The Status of Forces Agreement between the U.S. and Iraq is considered a sole-executive agreement, negotiated and entered into through the president's authority as commander-in-chief of the armed forces.

That is a different thing than a treaty.

According to the Congressional Research Service the United States has SOFAs with 47 other countries that are not based any treaty or underlying Congressional action. (making them sole-executive agreements)

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL34531.pdf

Sole-executive agreements do not have to be ratified by Congress and they are considered constitutional by the Supreme Court.

Examples of other sole-executive agreements include the Yalta Agreement of 1945, the Vietnam Peace Agreement of 1973, and the Iran Hostage Agreement of 1981.
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bos1 Donating Member (997 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-10 06:37 AM
Response to Original message
41. I read yr piece b/c of headline & then dismissed you as a lightweight craving attention
which your long mea culpa would confirm. The "Maybe I'd grown used to people accepting imprecise headlines when they were about Bush" excuse is particularly weak.

You need to work on your skills, your integrity and your self-awareness, or risk becoming just another internet schlock-jock.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-10 08:05 AM
Response to Original message
42. Well done explanations.
Thanks though you aren't guilty of anything except passion for all the right reasons. Without that, the movement for peace would die.
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