Corporations and capitalism will be responsible for the end of life as we know it.

[ej510]

All the polluting, the over fishing, overpopulating of the human race destroying habitat will be the undoing of mankind. Eventually there will be more people than food and not enough drinkable water. Throw in climate change and human extinction is likely to occur.

[Mari333]

1. I have this image of those guys in suits from American Psycho running the country

[Echo In Light]

4. Recall the notorious Enron phone calls of yuppie fascists joking about taking granny's $

[bobbolink]

17. nope, brain cells dying....but am interested. Could you please refresh my memory?

I would very much appreciate a briefing from you, or if you have it, a link.

Thanks so much!

[Mari333]

73. here you go

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/06/01/eveningnews/main620626.shtml

[bobbolink]

75. Thank you *very* much. Those quotes about stealing from "granny" will be

shared widely with some elderly folks.

I appreciate it! :yourock:

[FiveGoodMen]

89. I remember that.

No one I've met (offline) seems to give a shit.

:wtf:

[villager]

6. Alas, it's not just an "image!"

n/t

[Mari333]

9. someone on DU who worked on WallStreet said it's true

that there really are these sociopathic yuppies running the country, just like those found in that movie..that the movie represented them very well.

[Oregone]

2. Well, humans had a good run

But its past time.

Tough to feel sorry for all the other species they took out. I mean really...they didn't put up much of a fight now, did they? How many millions of years does it take to develop complex language or civilization? Sorry lizards and frogs...you will not inherit our cess pit

[ej510]

5. More animals will go into extinction in the next 20 years.

[tavalon]

93. Love the sig line!

[geardaddy]

3. I think you can cast your net wider than that.

i.e. humans regardless of ideology.

[ej510]

7. Actually I did with overpopulating, but I could said littering, like throwing garbage in the ocean.

Human waste in the ocean. Developing new unnatural bacteria.

[Webster Green]

8. Monsanto trying to privatize the world's food supply won't help either.

That company is pure evil. They should be shut down before they do more damage with their GMO crap.

[geardaddy]

10. +1000

[ej510]

11. I agree, but greed rains supreme globally.

Monsanto wants to protect food supply for the elite, leaving the rest of us to fight for scraps.

[chillspike]

12. Capitalism must be phased out

A green self sustaining living model must take the place of competitive capitalism.

[bobbolink]

19. Sadly, we don't have the time for a "phase".

[Oregone]

36. Imagine a vampire movie where the good guys decide to phase out the bloodsuckers

:)

[randr]

13. Life as we once knew it is already history

Must read---"Eaarth" by Bill McKibben author of The End of Nature
You are right, the corporations with their control of our media and political system, have destroyed our planet.
We are now the lobster in the boiling pot.

[WinkyDink]

61. Frog. Lobsters know to scream and try to escape.

[cali]

14. human extinction is, of course, pretty much a sure thing.

species come and go. humans are surely not immune from that. but as you say, it's the overpopulation problem that's the crux of the problem. Your title credits corporations and capitalism with our coming demise, but nothing in the body of your post supports that. Certainly capitalism and corporate greed are part of the equation, but I believe that the billions of people on the planet play a greater role than anything else.

[ej510]

18. I did mention overpopulation destroying natural habitat; which destroys necessary food chains. The

food chains; which make life sustainable.

[jberryhill]

43. Yes, but what is the connection between overpopulation and corporations or capitalism?

Developed countries in general have lower birthrates, so it's difficult to grasp the connection you are attempting to make here.

[ej510]

48. I should worded the headline better, because I didn't mean to confuse you.

I blame people for overpopulation.

[jberryhill]

51. I Agree - People Are Indeed The Likely Culprits Behind Overpopulation

Perhaps if a lot of people die, then this will take care of overpopulation, but you also seem to be averse to that.

[ej510]

54. We need a moratorium on births globally, but it won't happen,

because of religion.

[ej510]

55. I could not stomach so many deaths.

I cannot stomach death period.

[jberryhill]

57. Well, That's Quite A Bind

Too many people, and not enough deaths.

[sabrina 1]

74. So who should we condemn to death?

The non-productive poor, the elderly, the disabled? Hitler thought that was a good idea, along with a few other groups he thought served no useful purpose. Was he just ahead of his time?

Or, we could raise the standards of living across the globe, which tends to reduce over population.

But as long as all the wealth of the world remains in the hands of a few, and the masses are merely slaves contributing to that ill-gotten wealth, things will only get worse.

So there is a direct connection between greedy, unregulated capitalism and the conditions that we are now facing worldwide.

[bobbolink]

76. That's the list: "The non-productive poor, the elderly, the disabled? "

I just wish they would give us the pills so we could go in peace, instead of suffering.

Or maybe that is their entertainment.

You do know that it appears that the current administration if following in Raygun's footsteps, and trying to get rid of those on disability, right?

One person told me to expect to see a lot of suicides.

Just give us the pills for a peaceful exit.

[jberryhill]

78. Free Suicide Pills?

What kind of commie are you?

You are going to have to WORK for those suicide pills, son.

[bobbolink]

79. "What kind of commie are you?"

A female one. :hi:

You know, I think it is really cheesy to decide you want to get rid of a segment of the population, and then do it in a way that you don't have to take any responsibility for it.

Squeeze them out until they have to kill themselves, then sadly :shrug: and say, "What can you do with people this sick?"

At least take the responsibility for your own decisions.... for your own actions.



Wadda country.... :cry:

[jberryhill]

81. I have no idea what you are on about, actually

...as I don't know where you get the impression that I want to get rid of some portion of the population.

In response to someone upthread, who had issues with overpopulation, but also has problems with death, I noted that these two things put him in some sort of a bind.

But, it's all about responsibility, yes. No free suicide pills to people who are always looking for another handout.

[bobbolink]

82. sorry... the "you" is the collective "You".... to be more precise, the government.

I didn't realize until rereading that what I had in my head wasn't the same is what I wrote.

I am talking about the government decision to dump a lot of people on disability.

Kinda like Clinton dumping a lot of poor mothers and children, and not giving a damn what happened to them.

[jberryhill]

83. I am not a "collective you"

I am an autonomous federation of me.

[bobbolink]

85. Sorry, then. I will keep it to myself.

[blindpig]

96. Capitalism begets poverty.

Poverty begets high replacement rates.

Kill Capitalism.

[jody]

15. "Crony Capitalism Is NOT Capitalism", see DU post below.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=114&topic_id=78617#78618

[Oregone]

21. Capitalism is a wealth distribution mechanism that works efficiently...

to distribute wealth created in production disproportionally to the already rich.

When the wealthy can amass that much power and resources, and influence the government, the natural evolution of capitalism is what you mention.

While people want to sit around and defend capitalism, they fail to realize that what we have today directly depends upon, and is a result of, capitalism in general. Capitalism creates the prerequisite conditions for the status quo to come about.

This is why laissez faire capitalism is purely a myth (and dangerous in its own right). The moment the elite press the limits of disparity and amass significant power, they will ensure the government will create policy in their favor

[daggahead]

23. Don't forget the most important element of capitalism ...

exploitation of resources - whether those resources be natural, human or financial.

There is a dictum among those seeking to be rich (a-holes like fiction writer Robert Kyosaki push this idea) by applying to the idea of OPM - other people's money.

[ej510]

25. Capitalism started with slavery. Every global super power had it at some point.

[Oregone]

28. It is the notion that one man can purchase the right to profit from another man's labor

Slavery set the idealogical framework for this concept while it was exercised in its most extreme form; but make no mistake, this notion still exists today (and is practiced).

People sit at home and profit from the labor of others, via "rights" (shares) they inherit from their grandfathers; many are the great grandchildren of plantation men and sweat factory owners. And we hold these people up with great admiration in our society, because, afterall, they allow their laborers to have big screen LCD TVs with 104 channels of shit to choose from (when they have jobs).

[ej510]

30. Low wage workers are slaves. Capitalism has put borders around the working class. The middle class

is heading for extinction. Most Americans are living paycheck to paycheck and Capitalism loves because there are more workers than employment opportunity. Slaves!

[jody]

24. Thanks for sharing your opinion with me. I don't know of any economic system that operates

effectively and efficiently with a central planning function for goods and services.

[Oregone]

26. And never did I suggest that such a system is needed

Though, there are many mixed economies that use central planning to deliver necessary goods and services efficiently (like health care, energy and insurance for example). They leave private industry in charge of knick-knacks.

But perhaps what is needed is a system that is both decentralized for unnecessary goods and does not disproportinoally distribute wealth to the upper classes (employee owned enterprise would fit such requirements). If you can create a system with fair wealth distribution that has a null effect (or a combative one) on disparity, you would not be seeing the elite in the position to form a marriage with government, and run amok.

[ej510]

29. Basically you are saying a democratic-socialist government would suffice. I agree.

[jody]

32. Do you expect that a "democratic-socialist government" would protect individual rights? n/t

[Oregone]

34. The right to make laborers so poor they die from lack of access to medical treatment?

I don't think they would support that right.

[ej510]

38. Democratic-Socialism would provide medicine and affordable college. The U.S. has privatized public

universities. I should say capitalism.

[jody]

40. In #32 I meant "individual rights" enumerated and unenumerated protected by our Constitution.

Socialist and Fascist governments are totalitarian with government agencies planning for all aspects of production.

[Oregone]

41. Most true. Socialism isn't concerned about the individual and individual rights

:rofl:

[jody]

31. You said "Corporations and capitalism" and "All the polluting" etc.

In context that means the effect "All the polluting" is caused by "Corporations and capitalism".

I disagreed because IMO "capitalism" is not the cause but "crony capitalism" is the cause.

[Oregone]

33. No I didn't

I just replied to your post, pointing out that "capitalism" is the cause of "crony capitalism", as you call it. :)

You can't have one without the other...

[jody]

37. mea culpa, I confused your post with ej510 posts. n/t

[blindpig]

70. Stop being an apologists

It's all Capitalism, and it's got to go.

[jody]

84. The issue is whether one wants a central government that controls production & decides which rights

government should allow individuals to exercise OR one supports natural, inalienable/unalienable rights i.e. life, liberty, ownership of property and minimal government authority.

Fascism and socialism, just forms of totalitarianism, preach the former and democratic governments the latter.

Our present government does not support capitalism as evidenced by limited liability for corporations and forcing individuals to pay for corporate losses and letting corporations reap obscene profits.

[blindpig]

86. That makes no sense.

How does government collusion with and coddling of corporations make it not support capitalism?

That is capitalism.

[jody]

88. Government controlled by corporatist ostensibly favors capitalism but that's really crony-capitalism

[blindpig]

90. No, that's capitalism..

Capitalism inevitably evolves, the scale of accumulation requires it to make use of the state to create investment opportunities, if capital is to expand, and it must. Monopolies are also an inevitable. The kind of capitalism which libertarians like to describe was a snapshot in time at best, it is like asking the chicken to go back into the egg.

[jody]

91. OK, we've exchanged opinions. Have a nice day and goodbye n/t

[LeftinOH]

16. Movie triple-bill which describes it best: Idiocracy + Soylent Green + Brazil ..n/t

[daggahead]

20. The Boiler Room ...

That is what capitalism is to me ... a bunch of people that know how to rip people off, ripping people off.

[ej510]

22. Boiler Room damn near described what Goldman Sachs was doing,

and what Wall St did as a whole, and that was selling garbage stocks.

[kctim]

27. LOL

We will adapt, just as we always have.

[cali]

35. flawed logic. simply because we've adapted in the past

is not assurance that we will always adapt in the future.

[ej510]

39. I don't think we have enough time to adapt or the intellectual heft to.

Religion is another hinderance. People need to use contraception.

[jberryhill]

45. You forgot to add "Non corporate contraception"

Since, apparently, corporations aren't producing it.

[kctim]

66. Such dire things are always spoken of

We didn't have the time to fix the polluting of the 70s either. Fish kills, acid rain, overflowing landfills, smog, crying indians? The planet couldn't handle another billion people? Global cooling? Forests gone in a few years?
All were fearful "predictions" signaling the end of the world.

Of course things are going to change and there will hard times. I totally agree with you and life as we know it will change. But complete human extintion? Maybe, from a celestial body.

[kctim]

64. Of course there is no guarantee

but a proven history of adapting is alot more valid than using personal opinion to "prove" an end of the human race.

[jberryhill]

42. Corporations are "overpopulating"?

I didn't even know they could do that.

Human extinction, btw, is not "likely" to occur. It is certain to occur eventually. It always has been certain.

[Echo In Light]

44. Much, much more likely since the mid-20th century

[jberryhill]

46. Yes, all certainties become more likely to occur as time proceeds /nt

[Echo In Light]

50. Especially with the advent of tens of thousands of extinction-ensuring weapons...

... set to mass, instantaneous delivery systems

Not to mention a host of biological/chemical goodies

[jberryhill]

52. Yes, well our original poster seems concerned with overpopulation

So, you are apparently here to inject the "good news" into the discussion.

[Echo In Light]

Those who trivialize the actuality of the situation almost always overlook the most obvious factors

[jberryhill]

58. The most obvious starting point for approaching any situation

Is to confront oneself about one's role in it.

The only person whose behavior I can control is my own. Telling others how to behave is much less effective.

[Echo In Light]

59. The multi-faceted problem of attempting to hold Power accountable

That's a simple moral truth...not just "telling others how to behave."

[ej510]

47. You misunderstood me. I was talking about human population. I blame part of it on religion.

[jberryhill]

49. Okay, so we need a list of culprits

Your title said "corporations and capitalism" were to blame, but the bulk of your post was about overpopulation, and I did not know that corporations and capitalism were promoting overpopulation since developed countries have lower birth rates.

But, now, it's religion. Okay... we're going to need a list here.

Corporations
Capitalism
Sex
Religion

...anything else?

[nadinbrzezinski]

53. If this was capitalism you'd have a point

alas it is not.

Some elements of Capitalism.

1.- Monopolies would be broken down... alas no too big to fail.
2.- Government would protect local industry and actually encourage it.
3.- Free trade is between small producers, not large, multi national corporations.
4.- The economy does not depend on wild consumption
5.- Corporations are not people... and corporations should not be protected and cuddled by the state.

Oh and my favorite... those who pray at the church of Smith do not realize that the word is very critical of the Hand Of the Marketplace, which is mentioned ONCE in the whole book with multiple caveats.

Now if you said, Fascism, over consumption and corporations will kill the planet, you got no quibble from me.

[ej510]

56. Capitalism has no constraints. They buy government officials then wreak havoc on the planet without

repercussions.

[nadinbrzezinski]

60. Alas what you are describing is FASCISM

you know CORPORATISM. I know the propaganda, but this is not a free market as described by Adam Smith, you know the guy they pray at, but have not read the book from.

[ej510]

62. Mousalini's choice government.

[nadinbrzezinski]

63. Regardless, language matters

and if we are to change the world, we first have to use the correct language and call a spade a spade

[Oregone]

68. Lets just call a shovel a fork

Have you ever read this?

http://www.publiceye.org/fascist/corporatism.html

Honestly, I find a HUGE difference between corporatism and fascism. In corporatism, the government exists to benefit private industry solely. In fascism, the people and private industry exist to benefit and edify the state.

There is overlap, without a doubt, but its a stretch to call the two concepts synonymous.

[blueworld]

65. I emailed a similar point to MSNBC years ago & was shocked to get an interested response

Won't mention the show title. My premise was (& is) that over the last 40 years corporations have a primary role in determining where we live, our overall health & even what we can afford to eat. Many Americans are subjected to workplace injuries or illnesses based on the practices of their employers. Our medical & dental check-ups were based on our available health insurance & co-pays. If the job moves, the employees may have to move. If we live in areas seriously polluted by several types of industries, our children may have conditions or illnesses that they wouldn't otherwise have.

Certainly 40 years ago we had a great deal more liberty in choosing who we worked for, where we lived etc. But as the corporations have tilted the laws & loopholes in their favor, we've ended up as satellites orbiting around them. It's frightening. It's also laughable to hear the "free market" cheerleaders yakking about freedom. How many Americans have real employment choice & an achievable retirement?

Certain areas of this country have citizens who will have a particular lifestyle, a particular health history & a particular form of death (and life expectancy) significantly influenced by the corporations employing them.

Thanks for posting.

[ej510]

67. We are all slaves to the current system.

[Oregone]

69. Less so than you think

There is a mental addiction to the system, but unless someone is so indebted without the option of default (to the point you would be hunted down and jailed), most everyone could potentially pick up and leave the system, seeking out a low-tech agrarian communal existence. Its a scary concept, and may not appeal to everyone, but there is real escape.

My wife and I have discussed often moving out to an island close by the one we just moved to and just sort of leaving the race behind (more than I already have). Im not sure if we will reach that point or not.

[blueworld]

71. True, but even in very small small ways, like product selection

In the Stone Age, when I was "graduated" as a Systems Analyst, I achieved a comfortable salary level for the first time. I wanted to buy living room furniture that all matched, instead of the beer hall selection I had. There was a wide variety of furniture styles & upholstery fabrics available to me. I was never in "Martha Stewart's" league.

I recently received a catalog from Montgomery Ward & another from Sears (middle-class bastions) that were virtually identical, including item numbers, except for the covers. For those poor souls who shop at Wal-Mart, K-mart, Target, JC Penny etc. there are identical selections for bed, bathroom, living room curtains/linens. Same with kid's clothes.

5 years ago I purchased similar items online believing the selection was better, but I made a size error. Called the next day to modify the order & was snottily told that the items were "drop shipped" from Chinese/Mexican warehouses & couldn't be changed, but I could get an authorization number to return them. WTF?

Our commuting distances are determined by where we work & therefore our gasoline expenses...but I babble. You obviously know which is why you posted. I hope when I croak there's a decent coffin selection, not imported from you-know-where. Good grief.

[jberryhill]

72. No, you just lack the courage and conviction to stop participating

There are people which do.

For one thing, I gather you will abide by the birth moratorium you have proposed. That much should be easy for you.

[marmar]

77. No doubt.....And if people don't wrap their brains around that quickly......Oh well.

nt

[Umbral]

80. Not life, just humanity and civilization as we know it. Life is remarkably resilient. nt

[fascisthunter]

87. Corporations gave Sociopaths a Purpose

and today we live with the repercussions.

[ej510]

92. Complete destruction of the world.

[MajorChode]

94. I heard a streetcorner preacher screaming about armageddon the other day

That shit was funny too.

[Quantess]

95. I think so, too.