Nun automatically excommunicated for participating in decision allowing abortion that saved mother

[Catshrink]

This story was reported in the Arizona Republic this morning. The Taliban = Catholic Church?

A patient at a Catholic hospital in Phoenix was 11 weeks pregnant and suffering from pulmonary hypertension. A team of doctors, nurses, and the hospital ethicist (the nun) decided that they needed to end the pregnancy to save the life of the mother. But that didn't matter to the Bishop -- the Church's teaching is clear:

"An unborn child is not a disease. While medical professionals should certainly try to save a pregnant mother's life, the means by which they do it can never be by directly killing her unborn child. The end does not justify the means."

From the article linked below:

"According to the medical directives that the hospital follows, abortion is defined as the directly intended termination of pregnancy, and it is not permitted under any circumstances - even to save the life of the mother.

On the other hand, a second directive says that "operations, treatments and medications that have as their direct purpose the cure of a proportionately serious pathological condition of a pregnant woman are permitted . . . even if they will result in the death of the unborn child."

<snip>

James J. Walter, professor of bioethics at Loyola Marymount University in Los Angeles, a Catholic university, said that is a tough argument to make. He said a pregnancy may be terminated only in limited, indirect circumstances, such as uterine cancer, in which the cancer treatment takes the life of the fetus.

Catholic teaching, he said, is that a pregnancy cannot be terminated as a means to an end of saving the life of a mother who is suffering from a different condition.

Asked if the church position prefers the mother and child to die, rather than sparing the life of one of them, Walters said the hope is that both would survive.

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2010/05/15/20100515phoenix-catholic-nun-abortion.html

[KansDem]

1. DUer "snake in the grass" said it best...

"If drugging and raping boys doesn't get you defrocked, what the hell does?"

Weird, twisted religion...

[Catshrink]

2. Compassion.

[Liberal_in_LA]

62. +4

[HughMoran]

3. Nun gets promoted, no longer enslaved by hate-filled organization

Misogynist Catholic church says "woman are expendable, we only care about newborns who are still pure".

In related news: Catholic Church membership continues to wane, Pope wonders why.

[WeDidIt]

4. Yep, just as twisted and fucked up as radical Islam. n/t

[TwilightGardener]

5. The "hope" is that both would survive. Uh-huh. The Church should never play doctor.

They clearly don't understand that this woman was only 11 weeks along and already in critical condition BECAUSE of the pregnancy. The fetus could not have survived in any case--not enough oxygen to support it without extreme measures. Did they think the mother would have been better off sedated, vented and trached for 6 more months, IF she survived that long? Glad the nun (and the nun in charge of her) exercised independent thought and judgment, as most American Catholics do. I'm sure the patient will never again go near a Catholic hospital, either--the place where some people obviously would have rather let her die in order to keep their principles pure and untainted by moral shades of gray.

[Catshrink]

12. It was a Catholic hospital

I was surprised that they made the decision to abort -- it was the right thing to do. I doubt it won't be allowed to happen again.

The Bishop is a death panel for women in this situation. I wonder if he has read the Gospel lately?

[TwilightGardener]

13. If the woman was on a ventilator (which is likely, given that they decided

it was a life or death situation), she may have been in too much of an unstable condition to transfer to another hospital to have the procedure. Hence, the nun and the rest of the staff had to make a judgment call--there's no mention of husband or other family, so it's hard to know what really went into this decision. I find it horrible, as a Catholic, that the bishop would have rather had this woman die for principle. He wanted her to be either a successful incubator, or a dead incubator (with a dead fetus), but an incubator above all.

[Cleobulus]

16. Even worse, sometimes the secular hospitals are few and far between...

compared to the Catholic hospitals. Hell, where I live, most of the hospitals are Catholic, and frankly in cases like this, they need to be forced to do what they can for their actual patient, not for a fetus.

[tsuki]

105. That probably grabs as much tax dollars as they can. Superstitions

have no business in the medical field.

In Florida, where communities must have a state certificate of need to qualify for having a hospital (free market capitalism?), the Catholic Church tries to grab as many of those certificates as they can.

We have Sacred Superstition Hospital here. It is awful, but we were forced by the state to have a Catholic hospital. It's all politics.

[Cleobulus]

6. The RCC is perhaps the most fucked up and dangerous international organization on the planet...

They will excommunicate you for this, for passing out condoms, for questioning the infallibility of the Pope, for using Birth Control, etc. Yet NOT for pedophilia.

[Mari333]

7. lot of nuns I have met are pretty progressive

they need to dump the pope and start their own church.

[patrice]

17. Perhaps, they are.

If it is possible for there to be some quality that is not limited to any specifically manifested instance of itself, such that all such manifestations are real by virtue of the extent to which they share that quality, could that possibility apply to a community?

[Catshrink]

33. Heck, nuns taught me how to swear.

Sort of - my grandma did the rest. The nuns I know would love to dump the heirarchy.

[blueamy66]

131. One taught me how to drink.

I loved Catholic school. :-)

[BlueIris]

129. Nuns work with the poor, destitute and oppressed. They see firsthand whom the system fails

and why. That tends to promote progressive views.

[RC]

8. The Catholic Church had no position on abortion until the early 1950's

In other words for one thousands five hundred years, the didn't care. Then all of a sudden they did.

Why would any woman want to have anything to do with an organization that classify them as second class citizens, in eternal servitude to the men?

[WinkyDink]

9. Serving Christ is preferable to them than working for Mammon?

[patrice]

11. Maybe who they classify themselves as takes precedence over what anyone else, including the pope,

says.

After-all, they are not required to accept the dictums of the papacy on any matters other than dogma and, no matter how much some catholics and others, for POLITICAL motives of their own, try to project that dogma onto the Catholic church, there is no Catholic dogma that says women are second class citizens.

The principle: Judging the faith of others as being true or not, whether in adherence to some manufactured dogma about the status of women, or whether one "accepts Jesus (and ONLY Jesus) as one's lord and savior and is 'born again'", is NOT unique to the Catholic church.

A person could put up with a little of the Catholic Bashing that goes on around here if it were more equal opportunity bashing.

[Cleobulus]

15. No offense, but as an ex-Catholic, I find the Catholics around here to be over sensitive...

I mean, damn near any criticism of the Church is defended, to ridiculous extremes. A classic example is the argument you made, the person you are responding to made absolutely no argument that other churches are not teaching that women are second class citizens, that is simply not the subject of this thread.

[patrice]

18. No offense, but at less than a year around here, you have waaaay less experience than I do

of the tendency to which I refer in my previous post.

It just seems to me that IF posters MORE interested in the truth revealed in the empirical facts, rather than just bashing the Catholic Church, they'd identify the super-ordinate principles that ALL of the facts (Catholic and non-Catholic) reveal and at least refer to the possible relevance of said more-or-less-universal principles now and then.

The limitation of said observations to Catholicism, almost exclusively, appears just a little suspicious.

[patrice]

19. BTW, I think of myself, not as an ex-Catholic, but rather as a post-Catholic.

This is because I do not wish to reject the empirical truths of my life, which the Catholic Church had some part in despite their own obvious falsehoods (with which I AM intimately acquainted), and because I regard the flaws in all religions to be of equal value.

But, I do reject the false dichotomies posed in the kinds of absolute judgements that people level at Catholics, especially since those who judge at least appear to be committing the same error that they ostensibly abhor in the Catholic Church.

[Catshrink]

97. Some of them are certainly.

Those I work with shake their heads and wonder what's going on, some have stopped contributing to their parish.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

106. ALL Christian churches teach tthat women are inferior, because the Trinity is all male.

End of discussion.

Don't give me any of this "but but but....Mary is a woman".

Mary is NOT part of the Trinity. Tough luck.

The Catholics had to adopt indigenous goddesses and call them Mary to be accepted, because a balanced world view would have a God and a Goddess both, as equal partners.

However, the male-obsessed sexists that run the Catholic church and other churches are determined to stamp out female influence. Now why God has to have a dick, or why a priest has to have a dick, I don't know. That's human males asserting their superiority over women, because they CAN.

I am so sick of Jeebus all the time and the all male deity religions that I prefer to meditate on Kwan Yin and the Taras of Buddhism. And Lakshmi and Sarasvati of Hinduism.

[pundaint]

126. How could you tell that bird is male? Typically "end of discussion" goes near the bottom.

[MindandSoul]

10. Insane! In the mean time. . .the pedophile priests are "being transferred to greener pastures!"

Sick!

[mnhtnbb]

14. The Catholic Church has no respect for women, but plenty of compassion for pedophiles,

especially if they're priests.

[Junkie Brewster]

20. Women are meaningless to them, except as vessels

Clearly, their god meant for this woman to die, otherwise, why would he have blessed her with a pregnancy?

[Catshrink]

21. I really don't get the stance on this.

Without intervention, the woman will die and therefore her fetus will die. With intervention, she can be saved. The baby will not survive either way so the question is whether to save one live or two. The medical staff had the ability to save one live - wouldn't it be a "sin" not to do that? Or should they just stand by and watch two lives end?

What is the logic?

[Hansel]

121. No logic. They will just stand by and watch two lives end. I know.

I had an extremely horrific experience with Catholic doctors from my church that ended up in my carrying a dead fetus while being told that the stench-filled blood running from my body and the excruciating pain I was doubled over in was my period. I supposedly had my period at 5 months of pregnancy after not even a hint of bleeding previously.

Months earlier they had refused to remove an inter-uterine device despite my request to have it removed, because removing it might kill the baby. I was afraid it would kill the baby by perforating the embryonic sack as the baby grew because it was a Copper-7 (metal shaped like a 7). Unfortunately, I was right.

They refused to even acknowledge the overwhelming evidence that my baby was dead and I was near death so that they would not have to do the abortion. Their decision to overrule my wishes had, in fact, killed my baby and they were now willing to let me to die as well. Thank god for Planned Parenthood.

[patrice]

38. case in point and not a very original one at that

[patrice]

22. I'm sure everyone in this thread stereotyping the C's disrespect for women agree with the following:

- Immediate Affirmative Action for all jobs until a proportional representation of the sexes is achieved;
- and -
- Immediate employment compensation parity between the sexes.

I could probably think of a few others if I'd work on it a bit.

[Bluebear]

23. 'stereotyping the C's disrespect for women'-yes, it's just a stereotype.Women don't own their bodies

[patrice]

25. It is stereotyping when you do not differentiate between whom your statements apply to and whom

the statements do not apply to.

Aside from the Fact that "the church" IS the People, "Catholics ______________" & "the Catholic Church __________________" are stereotypes.

[Bluebear]

26. "The church" IS its heirarchy of males who cover-up crimes & victimize women and children.

[patrice]

28. You are, simply, wrong.

[patrice]

36. P.S. And I do emphasize the word "simple".

[Bluebear]

43. Simple, am I? /ignore - - -enough of your lunacy

[patrice]

47. Oh, how frakking Typical.

[muriel_volestrangler]

115. Fuck me, you insult someone, and then act surprised that they put you on ignore?

What kind of result did you expect? Do you think you're making yourself look any better by behaving like that?

[patrice]

29. The fact that they covered anything up is proof positive that they are not the church.

[Ikonoklast]

37. No True Scotsman fallacy.

Sorry, the criminals, those that cover-up, and the apologists *are* the church, whether you say so or not.

[patrice]

53. More authoritarian absolutism applied to semantics; it is not possible for you to make that

statement, unless you assume a completely closed and SELF REFERENTIAL system, which language is not. Language refers to something else that is not itself, in this case what "the church" ACTUALLY turns out to be (regardless of our semantic constructs) and, since neither one of us have access to that fact, it is just as true for me to say "they are not the church whether you say so or not". This indeterminacy is why I am advocating for more precision (to yeild at least the probability of a probability of validity), i.e. "The Bishops *are not* the church, whether you say so or not."

[Catshrink]

69. Nice try.

I doubt you have any idea what you just wrote. It utter bullshit.

[patrice]

88. You should write my university and tell them to revoke my MCL undergrad and my

master's with honors.

[Ikonoklast]

108. Arguement From Authority

Another logical fallacy.

[patrice]

111. No. If you'll examine this thread you will see that I do not depend upon absolutes, so statements

about my degrees are offered as evidence of the possibility of intellectual validity and, without empirical evidence upon which to base your evaluation, you have less basis for claiming the possibility of my intellectual invalidity than I do.

[Ikonoklast]

113. You offered them into evidence, as support for your position.

Again, once more, you fail at logic.

[patrice]

114. You fail to understand what Deconstruction is: I offer them in support of the POSSIBILITY of my posi

tion.

Authority, and authoritarianism in general, do not preclude the possibility of validity.

I offer authority as additional support, not proof.

[Ikonoklast]

80. That is the single most steaming pile of pseudo-intellectual bafflegab

I've yet seen posted on this site.

You posited a fallacy, and have no rational argument in response.


As noted above, utter bullshit.

[patrice]

83. Your problem is that you have trouble with someone who does not accept your frame.

That's YOUR limitation, not mine, I could accept yours if I wanted to.

[patrice]

85. Oh BTW, that's real iconoclastic of you.

Just in case you need it: :sarcasm:

[Catshrink]

99. How true.

[patrice]

104. rofl: Please tell us now how "Taliban = Catholic Church" is not prejudice, or stand revealed as

the bigot that you, apparently, are.

[Catshrink]

56. Hey, they wear the skirts.

If the bishops, cardinals, & pope aren't the church, who is? Yeah, I know you're going to say "the people are the church." The people are footing the bill for the pedophilia coverups in the way of paying the settlements. The people who contribute to sustain the heirarchy, as much as you want to deny it, are endorsing the decision made by the heirarchy. I once heard a theologian say "If you want to know a person's theology, look at their check book."

[patrice]

72. Point well made and that's one of the reasons I don't go to "Catholic Church" anymore, but that

does not preclude the possibility that (similar to some theories about who/what President Obama actually IS) there ARE people, practicing Catholics, who do go to "Catholic Church" in full and honest True knowledge, fully enlightened, about what it really is and who they are, and that they have defined their responsibility as that of the last bit of the Truth amidst Falsehood (kind of like the light and dark seeds in the symbol for Yin and Yang from The Tao), there to attract and help others with an affinity for Reality and who, without these "seeds of the Truth amidst Falsehood", would be less likely of progressing toward that Truth.

I know people like this; they ARE Catholics despite whatever corruption the hierarchy has become.

I think the stand outlined above is not all that different from that which many of us MUST/should adopt within the Corporate World and I LIVE that fact everyday.

[patrice]

30. "church" means community; why have you chosen a reference to one and only one community over any

other?

What gives you the right to make that exclusion without identifying it??

[Catshrink]

32. In this case, in this thread, we are talking about the Bishop

and the policy/dogma whatever of the Catholic church. If you can't argue within that framework, please start your own thread.

[patrice]

34. You need to say that to people making blanket statements about Catholics & the Catholic Church too

The fact that you also are failing to clarify the distinctions suggests your intent in the OP is somewhat less than Just.

[MH1]

102. I didn't think that the op or most of the criticisms in this thread referred to Catholics

I thought they were referring to the power structure of the Catholic Church, and specifically Catholic-run hospitals. There is a big difference between the power structure and the members. Although, I confess I find it hard to understand why members would continue to enable the power structure, some may feel that it's a framework in which they can do good and that outweighs the bad, and I respect that. But my point is the 'bashing', as far as I can tell, is not directed at those people, it's directed at a power structure that has some really messed up priorities.

[patrice]

45. P.S. You contradict your OP "Taliban = Catholic Church" NOT "Taliban = some Catholic Bishops".

[Catshrink]

71. Why do you defend their actions?

Do you support the Bishops? Do you support the save the fetus mentality even if the fetus will die anyway? Do you believe in saving the life of the mother in this situation? Do you believe in absolutes?

[patrice]

76. If you believe in absolutes, the only difference between you and them is which set of absolutes you

have CHOSEN to the exclusion of other possibilities.

There are no absolutes and that "statement" is so true that not even it is an absolute.

P.S. I am a "Deconstructionist" and we're used to being called solipsists.

[Catshrink]

98. Agreed.

There is no denying who sets policy and makes decisions about covering up crimes. In that authoritarian structure, the rules come down from above. As this nun found out, disagreeing with those rules gets you kicked out.

[patrice]

107. You are contradicting your OP and other posts in this thread. Now, apparently, you

believe: "Taliban = Catholic bishops" and I would like to agree with you now, but the statement is still too much of a stereotype of something which you reveal below you have little understanding of its dogma.

The statement that has the highest probable validity is: "Taliban = SOME Catholic bishops" (which most definitely applies to one of ours in this metro area - btw).

[Catshrink]

24. No need to sterotype with the evidence is abundantly clear.

This thread is about the Bishop's response to a life-saving medical decision. You're trying to make it into something else. Please take your frustration elsewhere and stop crapping in this thread.

[patrice]

27. I'm not making it into something else; posters, by failing to differentiate "the Bishops" or the

Catholic Church power structure, are making it about something else.

I think the thing they are making it about is their own resentment and hatred for Catholics in general BECAUSE THEY HAVE FAILED TO QUALIFY THEIR STATEMENTS in any way shape or form.

This thread is about them getting their rocks off against something that I'd bet most of them have only a cursory acquaintence with.

edit: punctuation

[Catshrink]

31. No, you're purposely trying to derail it.

[patrice]

35. Funny, you don't say that to persons making statements about all Catholics.

[U4ikLefty]

39. Bingo!!!

[Hansel]

122. There are people with real grievances against the Catholic Church.

You can pretend that it is not the case all you want. My church's teachings killed my unborn child and nearly killed me. There are too many cases to count of children who have been molested by agents of the church who were then protected by the church from prosecution and accountability and were moved to other locations where they continued to destroy the lives of unsuspecting innocent children.

You can pretend all that you want that those who don't care for the Catholic Church are "getting their rocks off". Or you can try to understand why some people simply have legitimate complaints against it. The church and its actions, teachings and in-actions have brought the criticism on itself. You don't have to like it, but quit pretending the criticism of the church for the horrendous behavior conducted by its agents, and the aiding and abetting of that behavior by it's hierarchy, is not justified.

The church's treatment of women and children in many many cases is inhuman and inexcusable. If you can't accept that that would cause people to be turned off by the Catholic Church, that is your problem. But most people find it to be an understandable response to such outrage.

[Dems to Win]

40. Women, beware! Do NOT enter Catholic hospitals!

The 'end' of saving a woman's life is not worthy of the means. As determined by a bishop, not the patient. Infuriating.

[patrice]

42. Wrong = Apparently it WAS determined by an individual Catholic WOMAN.

[Dems to Win]

48. This woman got lucky. But the POLICY is demeaning to women. I advocate women avoiding catholic

hospitals. And everyone should support public hospitals -- never, ever let your community be reduced to having only a Catholic hospital.

[patrice]

86. "got lucky"???????????!!!!!!!!!! Speaking of DISRESPECT for people. . . Holy fucking wow!

Afterall, it couldn't be because she is a living, honest, responsible, and independent moral agent, because she's a Catholic.

edit: punctuation

[Dems to Win]

90. Yes, the woman who lived got lucky that the individuals did not enforce the letter of the bishop's

directive. Other women in other catholic hospitals might not be so lucky as to have a team of thoughtful individuals all willing to go against the bishops.

I advocate all women (and men, for that matter) stay out of all catholic hospitals. Go to hospitals where the patient's choice is respected. Make sure such a choice is always available in your community.

[Catshrink]

95. They were very courageous. They must have known their jobs were on the line.

[patrice]

100. Thanks for the clarification.

One of the relevant possibilities here could be that Catholic health care is doing the same, or better, or worse, for less, because they don't have the executive pay that other health care has. I wish I could do the research to determine which it is (same, better, worse), but your recommendation should be made in light of this possibility, since executive pay eats up a lot of services.

Other issues (pedophilia and abortion) aside for just a moment, I also maintain that this particular issue, executive compensation, could have something to do with the full frontal a$$ault$ again$t the CC and perhaps, eventually, also against other not-for-profit health care providers, that we see on the internet. I'm having difficulty coming up with another hypothesis for the bigotry of the sort that I see in this thread. The point being, if folk were against pedophilia and anti-choice first and foremost, they'd be able to admit that it is the Catholic hierarchy not the church, i.e. not all of the Catholic people, who is primarily responsible for these depredations. Their inability to do that suggests some other, more hidden, agenda(s).

[BlancheSplanchnik]

120. not demeaning--- "lifethreatening" would be more accurate.

Women need to start respecting their own lives first and foremost.....we tend to easily care for others and put ourselves last. That isolates us from one another.

The "choice" issue is not really choice...at its foundation, it's a life or death issue for women, as this case clearly shows.

[MH1]

103. who, if I understand ex-communication, is technically no longer Catholic

Or do I have that wrong?

[patrice]

41. Interesting that SOME corrections for being "on" or "off" topic are more likely than others.

hmmmm . . .

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[patrice]

87. You have not yet dealt with a bigotted statement: "Taliban = Catholic Church".

[patrice]

44. Catholic Church = ONLY it's organizational structure is an authoritarian assumption.

[Starry Messenger]

46. They've been emboldened by their inroads into the Health Care bill.

That's what it seems like to me. The Church seems to be dragging ever more rightwards.

[patrice]

49. Another Authoritarian assumption. Jesus, when did people STOP thinking for themselves?

Tell me your blanket reference to "They" is not Prejudice.

[Starry Messenger]

51. Sorry sweetcheeks, no sale.

Ex-Catholic here not buying your apologia for power run rampant in the Catholic Church. Peddle it on Free Republic.

[Bluebear]

54. If it's the same one I put on ignore, that's where their argument belongs

[patrice]

60. Oh, how very democratic of you. "Disagree? Can't deal with it? Put them on ignore."= Conformity

:rofl:

[Catshrink]

66. No, a reasonable response.

Conformity is what the Bishops demand, regardless of who will be harmed in adherence to it.

[Starry Messenger]

61. Evidently I don't think for myself!

I am easily swayed by the sparkleponies of other oppressors of teh Catholic Church. :silly:

[patrice]

65. If the shoe fits . . . . But then, First, you have to be honest enough to admit that "IF".

[Starry Messenger]

68. You are arrogant.

Your solipsism does not erase the oppression of women at the hand of one of the most powerful groups on the planet that have mastered the art of oppression over the centuries. One nun making a compassionate decision does not redeem the whole. Plus, they kicked her out. That makes her not part of the Church anymore. That's the way they want it.

[patrice]

74. Arrogance? "one nun making a compassionate decision does not redeem the whole"= pot, kettle etc.

[Starry Messenger]

75. I'm following Bluebear's lead.

You aren't worth it.

[patrice]

77. Some "Starry Messenger"! Can't handle "space travel"? Run away! rofl

edit: typo

[Bluebear]

82. You must be "simple" too.

:silly:

[Starry Messenger]

84. And happy to be so!

I think "complicated" has been into the kitchen whiskey. :D

[patrice]

89. That's quite childish. I'd be embarassed if I were you.

[Lyric]

128. Agreed.

I haven't argued with anyone in this thread, but the behavior of the poster you're responding to is both hysterical and offensive. I really don't need to see any more.

[patrice]

79. P.S. In some circles this "..." is regarded as Blasphemy and YOU have a problem with judgements

made by others?

[U4ikLefty]

52. Your posts take up 40% of this thread...got an agenda?

Nah!!!

[patrice]

55. I'd respect your comment if you also recognized the agenda in "Taliban = Catholic Church"

The fact that you do not recognize the bigotted assumptions in that statement is evidence of your own agenda, which you share with OP, so since this thread is about agendas rather than validity, my posts are as acceptable as any other.

[Starry Messenger]

63. Actually, the Catholic Church is worse than the Taliban in many ways.

At least the Taliban don't fake any shit about social justice.

[patrice]

81. PROOF RIGHT HERE ALL: As I said, Bigotry and Hatred against Catholics.

That's real "Starry" of you.

[Catshrink]

94. Oh yeah, there's an agenda.

Disrupt any thread that challenges the Catholic Church. How does that saying go "If you can't argue logically, baffle 'em with bullshit?" It's something like that. I'd say we're hip deep today.

[Ikonoklast]

112. I've read all those posts, and they are word salads; meaningless constructs.

And I agree about disrupting any Catholic thread; for a person with no agenda, seems drawn to them like a moth to a flame.

[Catshrink]

119. ITA

Meaningless constructs and parsings, a fierce defense hiding profound insecurity. We both know bullshit when we see it.

[muriel_volestrangler]

116. When they started listening to their bishops?

Or when they became bishops, of course.

[rox63]

50. The people on the front lines (at the hospital) made the right decision

The Bishop is the one who is full of s**t.

The nun involved deserves kudos for doing the right thing, even though it went against the teachings of the Church.

[patrice]

57. Thank you. The nun and those like her, "Catholic" or not, are The Church.

[Catshrink]

64. So who are the Bishops? The Cardinals? The Pope?

Are you saying they aren't "the Church?" Who sets the rules that others follow? Sorry, you just can't differentiate it that way. By making the rules as they do, and disregarding the opinions and needs of women or anyone who disagrees with the orthodoxy, the Church is the heirarchy. The followers are mere afterthoughts who foot the bill.

[patrice]

73. They are "a church", like others. The fact that they have failed to live up to their name,

"catholic" = universal, is THEIR fault, not a negation of the ways in which humans ARE, in organic fact, united in their relationship to whatever a "god" would be. There is a unity and it does Live, no matter what kind of errant words we hang on it.

The Catholic hierarchy has betrayed "The (universal) Church" by subjecting it to themselves, but there are Catholics in there still fighting that struggle for the truth.

[Cleobulus]

123. You are defining Catholicism in such a way as to be meaningless...

Basically redefining it into a Humanistic concept that basically makes it no longer a religion, but rather a philosophy.

[Catshrink]

96. I so agree with you.

I wonder what decision the bishop would have made if he were standing at the patient's hospital bed and knew he could save the woman's life or let it slip away. He's a Pharisee - more concerned with "the law" than with compassion.

[Liberal_in_LA]

59. She's better off without that crazy church

[Manifestor_of_Light]

109. She can find a good home in an Anglican church.

A lot of Catholics find a home in the Episcopalian Church.

Example: Father Cutie (what a great name!) who was caught kissing his long time girlfriend on the beach in Brazil (I think). So he resigned, married the woman, and became an Anglican priest.

Good for him!!

[patrice]

67. This thread is full of close-minded bigotry against Catholics, prefered over other possibilities.

[Catshrink]

70. No. You're trying so hard to play victim here.

The poor church is being persecuted. Whhhaaaaaaa. Tell that to the woman who almost died due to dogma. The nun had courage, the woman is lucky for that.

[patrice]

78. I am protesting bigotry against good people: "Taliban = Catholic Church" Your inability to

deal with that is proof of prejudice.

[patrice]

91. P.S. This statement proooves that you don't know what dogma is.

[patrice]

93. P.P.S. So please tell me how you can criticize something that you have no apparent understanding of.

[City Lights]

92. How many priests have been excommunicated over molesting children? nt

[bulloney]

117. When caught, they're first sent to other parishes, hoping the out of sight/out of mind thingy works.

There's a long track record of that sort of thing exposed in the chuch.

[RetroLounge]

101. "Taliban = Catholic Church"

"Taliban = Catholic Church"
"Taliban = Catholic Church"
"Taliban = Catholic Church"
"Taliban = Catholic Church"
"Taliban = Catholic Church"
"Taliban = Catholic Church"
"Taliban = Catholic Church"
"Taliban = Catholic Church"
"Taliban = Catholic Church"
"Taliban = Catholic Church"
"Taliban = Catholic Church"


Yup.

RL

[pundaint]

127. That is just not true, the Catholic Church has a nifty art collection.

[Renew Deal]

110. So according to these guys a dead mother and baby is preferable to an abortion.

OK :crazy:

[Catshrink]

118. I feel a lot of compassion for those Catholics in a crisis of faith over the deeds of their Church.

For some of them, the denial must be excruciating. Think about it: the Church one has grown up in, loved and supported, that gave them sustenance through many a difficult time, turns out to be a great doer of evil whose actions are antithetical to the teachings of Christ. Their time spent volunteering and money donated has been supporting the actions.

This realization will lead some to walk away and become lapsed Catholics. Some will accept it and continue to be active in their parishes, uncertain about the morality of the Church's actions but not wanting to give up their faith tradition either. Others will fiercely fight the acknowledgment with a multitude of excuses, parsing the definition of "church" or blaming it on the heirarchy.

There are dark days ahead for the Catholic Church. In the middle ages they could count on the ignorance of the people who didn't know better to get through tough times. People are more knowledgable now, they can see what has been going on - the child molestation is out in the open, the ridiculous statements about condoms not protecting against AIDS are "out there," the lack of compassion for those facing difficult life issues, etc. are all "out there" for public scrutiny.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

124. That's what they do at St. Joseph's Hospital.

Save the baby, let the mother die. I heard that horror story more than once from friends.
And then let daddy raise the other kids all alone.

:grr: :banghead:

[Ilsa]

125. They just don't get that the fetus never had a chance. nt

[BlueIris]

130. They don't care that the fetus never had a chance.

Their objective is to brutalize women who attempt to control their reproductive lives, not protect "unborn 'children'."

(And patrice--don't even bother; I put you on Ignore thirty posts ago.)

[Karenina]

132. Just wondering if this woman had other children?

:shrug: