The herd of elephants in the Gulf---

[Atticus]

---that no one wants to acknowledge:

1.) we have been lied to from Day One about how much oil is gushing into the Gulf of Mexico;

2.) we are being lied to now about how much "hidden" oil lies in layers in the deep water of the Gulf;

3.) our governments "deference" to BP, Transocean and Halliburton has allowed them to spend weeks hiding or destroying "evidence" and positioning themselve to defend their corporate fortresses INSTEAD of coordinating a rescue operation to stop the flow;

4.) "success", at this point, would be confining the ecological and financial disaster to the Gulf;

5.) the Gulf of Mexico that generations have fished on, played in and admired---is fatally wounded and will die.

Once the public has acknowledged #5, the remaining energy mega-corporations will argue "As long as the Gulf is already dead---"

All that's left to do, as Shelley wrote, is to "weep barren tears".

[voteearlyvoteoften]

1. rec

[HowHasItComeToThis]

26. REC REC

[marylanddem]

2. Beautiful summary...

BP WANTS to keep that gusher open. Siphon, baby, siphon.

[G_j]

3. K&R

[tekisui]

4. knr

[Subdivisions]

5. I'd like a little more info on number 2. What is the lie about

"hidden" oil in the GoM?

[Atticus]

10. Sure. For starters, read:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8346384
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x247870
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8346188

[uponit7771]

61. Delete

[Stardust]

18. And if those discussions don't point you to this...

snip

It is also certain that the slick volume on the surface is substantially lower than the rising column of oil. This is a key point to bear in mind. Because of this fractioning, what you see from the air on the surface of the water represents maybe just 20% of the volume of the various types of oil in that area. And we're talking an area the size of Maryland (10,000+ square miles) that is on the surface. The remaining 80% is under the surface; and all of it is highly toxic to the living organisms encountered.

All of this brings into serious question the volumes of oil rising. Every factor suggests massively higher numbers than what has been commonly reported.

http://pesn.com/2010/05/13/9501651_a_volcano_of_oil_erupting/

:scared:

[tavalon]

23. Not eveything is making it to the top and the dispersents make it even harder to tell

just how much is just hanging around coating the floor and probably traveling toward the atlantic. And then there is hurricane season. I'm no expert on what a hurricane will do to the hidden oil nor even the surface oil, but I can't imagine it's going to be good.

[axollot]

65. They've "discovered" huge plumes of oil beneath the surface...

the Gulf is going to die, I cannot see it surviving this massive leak. I've been so upset by this for the past month now. Anyone see the little shit CEO the other week in London say that this "leak" was relatively tiny? I want to make him swim in it. Then tell me how f'ing tiny this is. My brother is/was a crabber out of the MS Sound area (which is a Gulf inlet/bay). UGH.

Angry. Really angry. The Gulf will not be right in my life time. I'm 39 at the end of this month and know that much. The area couldnt take this hit, Katrina was a sucker punch but this, this is a total K.O.

:cry:

Cheers
Sandy

[depakid]

6. Point #4 will only be understood over time

[axollot]

67. I have said for the last few weeks to expect oil all around FL to the UK..

..and beyond. Everyone will get a piece of this since it's now impossible to keep it from getting into the Gulf current that runs around FL, up the east coast, across the Atlantic and on...(what's that called? want to say Gulf Stream but that's the air current - right?). As if the world's oceans didnt have enough dead zones.

As you said point #4 will only be understood over time.

And this is what is public knowledge, think about what we do not know yet! The many unknowns of an oil leak of this magnitude.

As for hurricanes, my guess early on was that it will bring it ashore and far, far inland. I'm sure there will be oil from this found as far north as the MS river can go and into every inlet and cove along the way. Which if you've (not specificly you depakid) ever flown over the area (I've taken off out of NOLA's Airport) the whole area is all little inlets and coves. These mangroves/wetlands are essential to our life not just the fauna and flora!

It's been :nuke: !! :scared:

It will eventually effect everyone in the US. We are fucked. The only irony in any of this is the effect it will have on the red states that pom-pom for big oil/corporations. Of which I live in one, my mother and brother live in MS and my brother is (was) a crabber out of the area. He is one of millions of people that will experience a direct and immediate hit. The Gulf is f'ed for the rest of my life-time (39 this mo) and certainly the life-time of my children. (20, 16 & 7)

Sorry to sound so extreme - I hope that I'm wrong. Seriously. Thus far my estimates (and I'm no expert) on this have been correct - since day 1.

(edit to add - a Big HELLO to a fellow Aussie! I'm actually an Aussie/American and all but my youngest child were born in Australia. We are from South East Queensland.)
:cry: - :grr: -:cry:

Cheers
Sandy
edit: typos

[jotsy]

7. The big headliner at Common Dreams this morning:

<http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2010/05/16>

Thank you Atticus. K and R

edited to add brackets for link. Where's my cup, I clearly need more coffee.

[defendandprotect]

15. Core of capitalism is exploitation of nature . . . destruction for a dollar bill....!!!

We have to stop judging everything by the yardstick of a dollar bill!!

And stop letting dollar bills buy power -- and influence over government!!

[jotsy]

30. Definitely time to redefine what rich is.

I've always kept my kids in one activity or another, it becomes an interesting opportunity to get to know folks you might never have otherwise even met. Opportunities to have some engaging chats can and do ensue and in a particular instance, I found myself confessing to this crazy notion that money, in and of itself, had become an obsolete tool lacking the capacity serve the needs of an advanced and sizable society as it moves on. Another parent complimented me on the idealistic notion and then said this:

Some other system would take its place, the system is never the problem, people who abuse the flaws in the system are what the problem is. Solve that and we'll get somewhere as a species, don't and we'll keep going in circles until we do something too stupid to take back or learn.

I'd brought this idea up many times before this chat, not so much since.

Parting affluence from influence means more work than I think people are willing to undertake.

[defendandprotect]

38. Rightly, we should uinvent the dollar bill --

it replaced the seashell . . . . as a tool for trade --

but corrupted in its use as a way to amass power, destroy a people's government.

We saw the destruction an alleged $24 brought to the native American on Manhattan Island...

and will eventually bring the same destruction to all of humanity.

Our Constitution is as disposable as a US treaty with the native American --

[jotsy]

71. I find I am not as prepared to surrender on the spirit of it's intent,

the same way I can't dispose of the flaws in my upbringing. I am the product of a turbulent environment and while my parents may not have done the job to a standard I hold, I have tried to put down the bad and make use of their more favorable and productive traits, at least as seen in the eyes of the community around us. Doubt that I get there all of the time but I seem to be motivated by making something good of them. Perhaps an extension of that lies in my desire to see that the language that launched us as a nation holds water this much later, theoretically anyway. It's the working model which has been so modified by those who possess a will not in keeping with independence as a primary principle in the governance of a free people, generations of them.

A fellow DUer, in an essay from this morning, says not revolution, but restitution, I would add restoration.

To a fresher way forward.

[defendandprotect]

82. I'm not clear on your post . . . .

are you addressing the dollar bill, the Constitution, or something else?

What I said about the Constitution was to suggest that it is only as well protected

as native American treaties were by our government.

Again, the dollar bill cannot replace nature -- not now nor ever.

Nature is ALL --

[jotsy]

88. Given my abstract nature, ambiguity is a strong suit in the tiny realm that is my mind. .

My apologies, I meant the constitution. I'm stirred by the principle and see it as far more precious than this moments monetary might represented by a dollar many say is doomed.

Nature was not respected as a long term provision, and mad as hell I'd say for the milking.

[defendandprotect]

90. None of us wants to surrender the Constitution to capitalists/elites . . .

but elites have pretty much been in charge of it since the beginning --

What I also stress about the dollar bill is that we have to stop judging everything

by the yardstick of a dollar bill --

Nature is ALL --

[marylanddem]

8. BP can not be left in charge of this disaster anymore

Whatever Obama can do to wrest their inept butts from the Gulf needs to be done. Immediately.

[defendandprotect]

16. KEEP SAYING THAT... but how many at DU have told that to Obama/Congress???

I've been e-mailing on that for a few days --

My Sen. Menendez seems to get it -- dollar bills don't replace nature!!

but where the hell is Obama????

[tavalon]

24. He's sent a crack team of scientists to work on this

He's basically circumventing BP. Commendable. Holding the videos for three weeks, not commendable.

[defendandprotect]

32. Great -- trust we may one day find out what is actually going on . . . ?

[flamingdem]

49. Exactly, he's on the case, Obama is not to blame, start the blame game with Bush and Cheney PLEASE

[axollot]

69. Thank YOU! Cheney's energy task force meeting after the election

was handed to them by a corrupt court showed they did not require the remote switch unlike other parts of the world. So lets start with the real assholes in all of this - the "free-marketeers" - Fucking the country since the mid 60's.

Cheers
Sandy

p.s. There has been a ton of blame to go around and Obama has some too. I agree with that much but focusing the blame on him is way off the mark.

[defendandprotect]

84. We need re-regulation of all of capitalism . . . including oil industry . . .

Dems/Obama have been lagging on that --

All of our government agencies have been co-opted and criminalized by corporate influence.

Granted GOP/Bush/Cheney overturned much of the New Deal . . . but unfortunately with the

help of Democrats!

Sadly, Obama has also been pushing offshore drilling --

one of the last things he said before this fiasco was "oil rigs these days don't have spills" -- !!

[defendandprotect]

83. Unless government takes it over, Obama is not on the case . . .

and whatever Bush/Cheney did we can only guess at because it's still secret --

what we do know is that Obama has been pushing offshore oil drilling . . .

One of his last sentences before this catastrophe was "oil rigs today don't have spills" -- !!!

Yikes!!

[icee]

20. Sorry. Obama will give many overtures that he is doing

something, but will do nothing other than talk.

[defendandprotect]

33. Can only hope you're wrong --- fingers crossed --

[icee]

37. I, too, hope I'm wrong.

[defendandprotect]

39. I know . . .

and I also sympathize with the overall comment you made --

I have the same fears!

:)

[Captain_Blue]

43. Talk is Cheap

I am so saddened to agree with you. Obama is the great disappointment of my lifetime. His talk is cheap as far as action is concerned. I know he cares, but whoever is pulling the strings in background could care less. I am saddened that our gulf has been fatally wounded. I will never get to go back to what I had a couple of months ago. I am saddened that our leadership cannot act and I am assuming that the money paying for the cheap talk is very much more influential than all of us ordinary people put together.

I believe we are witnessing a great disaster of uncountable proportions. All we have is left is prayer and that works about as well as emails to the whitehouse. I believe God is gone and Obama is wishing someone with strength was in charge.

I used to curse fox news, but now find them about as good as msnbc. In the end, there is no other way to say it, than just admit, we are done for!

[icee]

47. Looks that way, but, invariably, a David Crockett will turn up when

you least expect him. Keep your eye on the dot.

[Enthusiast]

58. Fox News is not about as

good as anything. All they do is push harmful lies. There is some truth on MSNBC at least.

[axollot]

70. F-that. I still curse Foul News.

Agree the GoM has received a fatal wound and we have no idea how badly this will effect our planet. A dead zone of that size we do not know the repercussions. If you have young children, as I do, talk to them. Tell them what is wrong, tell them that we tried but they are our future it's still possible for them to make real change. My kids vary in age to as old as 20 and as young as 7.

Obama is hardly the greatest disappointment of my lifetime. That is reserved for what RayGun did to us in the 80's - Obama has done more in his short time in office (and created more jobs already than the entire time * was in office) than he gets credit for but shit goes wrong he owns it.

It may be hard to see everything he has done, and it sure is easier to pick at what he has NOT done but that doesnt change a thing.

He didnt create the environment that led to this disaster, he knows as much about oil rigs as the information he had been given prior to this disaster. Worse, whistle-blowers are only now coming out to tell us about the falsified safety tests. So on top of everything else Obama has to do he also had to know how oil rigs run?!? Honestly. What is truly commendable on his part is breaking up the mineral resource management team that allowed this to happen. The absolute BEST we can hope for here is that the many oil rigs around the US (and the world) will be properly inspected, fixed and our future generations will know how dangerous they really, truly are to life on this planet.

Cheers
Sandy

[RC]

9. You could very well be correct.

Profile of the Sociopath

http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html

# Manipulative and Conning
They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.

# Grandiose Sense of Self
Feels entitled to certain things as "their right."

# Pathological Lying
Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.

# Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.

# Shallow Emotions
When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.

# Incapacity for Love

# Need for Stimulation
Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common.

# Callousness/Lack of Empathy
Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them.

# Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.

# Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency
Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc.

# Irresponsibility/Unreliability
Not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed.

# Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity
Promiscuity, child sexual abuse, rape and sexual acting out of all sorts.

# Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle
Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively.

# Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility
Changes their image as needed to avoid prosecution. Changes life story readily.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lots more information at the site: http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[90-percent]

64. Said it here before

All our Institutions are failing us. All our Institutions are run by sociopaths.

-90% Jimmy

[intheflow]

12. Today Shelley would say we would "weep barrel tears."

:(

Your post is spot-on. I thought of #5 myself about three days ago, of course that's what they'll say. They'll go further and say if they tap the same oil reserve, they can decrease the amount that will continue to gush. Fuckers.

[Duppers]

13. K&R

for the seriousness of this situation.

Obama's lack of action and attention to this dire situation is irresponsible, to say the least.

[earth mom]

14. There was a thread the other day here on DU saying that all BP has been trying to do

is to figure out how to save the oil and their profits, not plug the gusher.

I can't find it but if anyone has a link to that thread, please post it, TIA!

p.s. Totally agree with the OP! :cry:

[tomm2thumbs]

17. Breaking: Models Indicate Gulf Spill May Be in Major Current

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory?id=10661891

Researchers tracking the massive oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico say computer models show the black ooze may have already entered a major current flowing toward the Florida Keys, and are sending out a research vessel to learn more.

William Hogarth, dean of the University of South Florida's College of Marine Science, told The Associated Press Sunday that one model shows that the oil has already (entered) the loop current, which is the largest in the Gulf.

<snip>

The current flows in a looping pattern in the Gulf, through the area where the blown-out well is, east to the Florida Keys National Marine Sanctuary.

[Odin2005]

19. This is a catastrophe of biblical proportions.

:(

[WinkyDink]

21. And may I say: Your summation shows the value of studying the Humanities.

Because poetry speaks more truth than commerce.

[tavalon]

22. I've known for days that the Gulf has been murdered

I'm in the shock stage. I can't even look at the pictures. I grew up there and while I was never as attracted to oceans the way I am mountains, it just doesn't matter. Murder is murder and this is murder on a large scale.

[democrank]

25. K & R

[me b zola]

27. K&R

[lunatica]

28. You're right

If the gusher is stopped right now the devastation will last for years, if not forever with our present technology. Maybe it will inspire new technology or ways of cleaning toxins. There might be some thin sliver of a silver lining. But the lifestyle of the people on the coast will never be the same. Their livelihoods are already a thing of the past.

[ThomThom]

29. We should be demandinng that they clean -up ever last drop

not just spreading it out

[LuckyLib]

31. Just saw 60 minutes, report of an engineer on the rig, and the Berkeley

prof who has looked into it. Big negligence, big time, on the part of BP and Oceana. The bosses should have been marched off in handcuffs immediately, and all records confiscated. The coverup has had weeks to brew.

[Enthusiast]

59. Criminal negligence.

The whistle blower was very fortunate to have survived at all. Now BP will probably kill him. I wouldn't fly on any small aircraft if I were him.

[amborin]

34. it's now May 16 and our government still leaves criminal BP in charge

[Karmadillo]

35. Even given this administration's willingness to put the business of corporations ahead of

the business of the people, letting BP screw around week after week while the Gulf is destroyed is inexplicable.

[defendandprotect]

36. Who in the hell is advising Obama . . . Brownie?

[amborin]

52. i hope this all comes out in an independent investigation

not the one O has launched with the coast guard and other gov't agencies whose reputations are on the line

this needs independent panel of experts

but that's later

now it's crucial to stop the leak; yet BP dithers and keeps scientists away, and the WH allows this

[pokercat999]

68. Who is advising Obama? The people in charge of raising money

for his re-election. Where will they get a huge chunk? BP, Exxon, Shell, Haliburton and on and on and on. He needs $100,000,000.00, that's not coming from you and me.

[amborin]

51. it's as if they're in denial, or?

are they trying to keep their distance from it, thinking they somehow won't be tainted?

[jeff47]

44. Who should be in charge?

The government? They know very little about drilling and capping oil wells. They'd just have to turn around and ask the oil industry to fix it.

The next time someone complains about how well-paid government employees are, remember this incident. The government has nobody who's an expert in drilling because we don't pay enough.

[amborin]

53. there are teams of experts

scientists, engineers, etc, from academia and other orgs, who are being kept away, despite offering their expertise

the gov't needs to seize the site and allow them in; put BP into trusteeship and take over management of the crisis; but this doesn't necessarily mean putting gov't staffers to the rescue at all

take the skimmer ships from the netherlands for example.....the gov't should have allowed them to operate; and it should have bannned BP from using the toxic dispersants; using dispersants at all was questionable; they may have contributed to formation of this underwater plume that is so disastrous; but even if dispersants were used, BP should not have had the option to use the cheaper, more toxic ones....


it's terrible to allow criminal and incompetent BP to dither at the ecosystem's expense

BP has f----- this up since it started; even skimping on booms

[defendandprotect]

85. FINAL responsibility will always fall to government . .. this isn't quite Chernobyl ...yet --

but very serious consequences are possible -- many we can't even guess at !!

[jeff47]

40. Never ascribe to malice what can simply be incompetence.

"1.) we have been lied to from Day One about how much oil is gushing into the Gulf of Mexico;"

There's no way to measure the flow rate. The videos, while spectacular, still don't provide a reliable way to measure the flow rate. So everyone, from BP/Transocean, to the government, to outside watchdogs is guessing. They are _all_ wrong because nobody can measure it.

"2.) we are being lied to now about how much "hidden" oil lies in layers in the deep water of the Gulf;"

This is a restatement of #1. But it does sound nice and conspiratorial.

"3.) our governments "deference" to BP, Transocean and Halliburton has allowed them to spend weeks hiding or destroying "evidence" and positioning themselve to defend their corporate fortresses INSTEAD of coordinating a rescue operation to stop the flow;"

The oil companies are the only ones with any expertise in oil drilling. We don't pay government employees enough to be experts. So the government could take over the entire operation, but they'd just have to turn around ask the oil industry to fix the problem. Meanwhile, a government takeover lets BP argue in court that the oil destroying the gulf was released while the government was in charge, so they shouldn't be liable.

Keeping it in BP's hands means they suffer the liability, and it keeps the people who know drilling at the helm. Both of these things could be changed for future incidents, but that will require legislative action (higher pay for experts and the oil company retaining liability).

"4.) "success", at this point, would be confining the ecological and financial disaster to the Gulf"

While BP's CEO was widely ridiculed for his statements, the Gulf is indeed very large. The LA, MS and AL coastlines are in for a world of hurt, and FL and TX to a lesser extent, but there's still a bunch of Gulf left after that. Hyperbole doesn't help make your argument.

"5.) the Gulf of Mexico that generations have fished on, played in and admired---is fatally wounded and will die."

Is a restatement of #4.

Look, offshore oil drilling is stupid. It's never going to fix our underlying energy problems. Not drilling is a good idea. And good ideas do not need to be protected by a phalanx of lies.

Let the drilling supporters be the ones caught lying, instead of giving them a "Both sides do it" out.

[Atticus]

41. Since I've apparently just been accused of lying, perhaps you'd care to point out where I did that.

Or, is having an opinion which disagrees with your view of things not just "conspiratorial" and "hyperbole", but full-fledged lying?

[jeff47]

42. Is it troubling when the same accusations you fling about are tossed in your direction?

Repeatedly, you claimed that other people were lying. Yet you only seem to be troubled when the same accusation is leveled at yourself.

How much oil is flowing? Nobody knows. I've seen articles claim it's millions of barrels when you can't possibly fit millions of barrels through that pipe. So your statement that the oil companies and government is lying is itself a lie.

Is the entire gulf going to become a dead zone? Nope. While there's a ton of oil, it's still relatively small and localized compared to the gulf as a whole. Even if the gusher continues for a while. So that's another lie.

If you don't want to be called a liar, stop lying. You will be much more successful at convincing anyone that your opinions have merit, and you help all of us trying to drag the country back from the right. The spill is disastrous enough without your editorial help.

[Atticus]

45. I don't really think you are someone who is interested in honest discussion and your defense of what

has transpired in the Gulf, taken together with your accusatory tone, makes it difficult not to speculate as to your motivation or agenda. Nonetheless, let's examine your reply.

"How much oil is flowing? Nobody knows. I've seen articles claim it's millions of barrels when you can't possibly fit millions of barrels through that pipe. So your statement that the oil companies and government is lying is itself a lie."

No, I'm sorry, but that doesn't fit any reasonable person's definition of what a "lie" is. As you said, "Nobody knows" exactly how much oil is gushing into the Gulf. I think it is substantially more than what we were originally told and that those who gave us those figures knew better. You apparently think those figures are just fine. That's a difference of opinion, not an example of either of us "lying". Further, you seem to be sure that some claims as to the volume of the leak are not feasible because of the size of the pipe. I've seen the size of the pipe stated as 12 inches all the way up to 5 feet. Do you KNOW how big the pipe is? If you didn't install it or manufacture it, you likely only "know" what you've read somewhere, which is to say you don't really KNOW.

So, are you lying about that?

Your entire third paragraph is totally your opinion. That would be a pretty lame basis for your conclusion---"So that's another lie"---even if it was a reasoned opinion. It is especially lame---embarrassingly so, actually---since it is what many people describe as a "half-assed" opinion.

I have often been wrong in what I've posted on DU. Sometimes insensitive, sometimes foolish, sometimes misinformed.

But, I have never lied and I am perfectly content to let the those who read what both of us have said decide whose ideas "have merit".

Someone with your knowledge is likely already aware of this, but, on the off chance you haven't heard, there are still some parts of this country in which calling someone a liar face to face is followed by an obligatory ritual: picking up teeth.

Be careful, friend.

[jeff47]

48. So what you're saying is you didn't bother reading my posts.

You just decided that since I was pointing out where you were wrong, I must love BP.

Good to know I've got to cover for your ass when I'm arguing against "both sides do it!".

"your defense of what has transpired in the Gulf"

Really? I called offshore drilling stupid. I repeatedly called it a disaster. That's _defending_ what has transpired in the Gulf? No my friend, I'm saying the disaster stands on it's own. It doesn't need your help.

"I think it is substantially more than what we were originally told and that those who gave us those figures knew better."

How, exactly, would they know better? There is no equipment or technique on the planet that can accurately measure what's coming out of that pipe.

"You apparently think those figures are just fine"

This statement either means you're lying about me, or didn't really read the post. My position is that nobody knows how much oil is coming out of the pipe. Frankly, any number greater than 0 is bad so the exact quantity really doesn't matter.

"Further, you seem to be sure that some claims as to the volume of the leak are not feasible because of the size of the pipe. I've seen the size of the pipe stated as 12 inches all the way up to 5 feet. Do you KNOW how big the pipe is?"

21". It's all over the damn news, now that they've put "the straw" in it. All reputable news sources have been giving a size of 18" to 21". The only people claiming 5 feet are the "it's going to destroy the world" alarmists who don't know anything about oil drilling...which is why I know to completely dismiss the 5 feet number, since that comes from an article by one software engineer who's never worked in oil.

I will now claim that the Saturn V rocket was 5' tall. I've never worked for NASA or in aerospace. My statement should carry just as much weight as the 5' diameter pipe number, according to your position.

"But, I have never lied"

Fine, let's play the pedantic game. Look the beginning of this post, and look up the quote chain. Isn't saying I'm defending the oil spill a false statement? Doesn't that make it a lie?

"Someone with your knowledge is likely already aware of this, but, on the off chance you haven't heard, there are still some parts of this country in which calling someone a liar face to face is followed by an obligatory ritual: picking up teeth."

If we decide to follow the right into using violence to silence those to whom we disagree, then our nation is truly lost.

[Atticus]

54. My last post began with: "I don't really think you are someone who is interested in honest

discussion".

You have just proven my point.

Have a good one.

[Spheric]

57. I did bother to read your posts...

and the most charitable thing I can say is that you are misinformed.

First, lets take this statement:

"There is no equipment or technique on the planet that can accurately measure what's coming out of that pipe."

Yes, that is indeed what BP is claiming. Thanks for playing along. But, it is only the word "accurately" that lets them get away with it. What does "accurately" mean -- out to the 50th decimal place? In that case, what they say is true. But, if accurately is defined as within one percent, then the statement is patently untrue.

Now, for the truth:

BP has repeatedly said that its highest priority is stopping the leak, not measuring it. “There’s just no way to measure it,” Kent Wells, a BP senior vice president, said in a recent briefing.

Yet for decades, specialists have used a technique that is almost tailor-made for the problem. With undersea gear that resembles the ultrasound machines in medical offices, they measure the flow rate from hot-water vents on the ocean floor. Scientists said that such equipment could be tuned to allow for accurate measurement of oil and gas flowing from the well.

Richard Camilli and Andy Bowen, of the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution in Massachusetts, who have routinely made such measurements, spoke extensively to BP last week, Mr. Bowen said. They were poised to fly to the gulf to conduct volume measurements.

But they were contacted late in the week and told not to come, at around the time BP decided to lower a large metal container to try to capture the leak. That maneuver failed. They have not been invited again.

“The government and BP are calling the shots, so I will have to respect their judgment,” Dr. Camilli said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/14/us/14oil.html

Or this:

So far there have been a lot of numbers floated out there concerning the amount of crude spewing into the Gulf; the U.S. Coast Guard continues to repeat the earliest estimate of 5,000 barrels per day, but BP officials told Congress that as many as 60,000 barrels per day could potentially be flowing into the ocean.

BP has already released some video of the largest of the two known leaks along the riser pipe, and that could help researchers make some kind of assessment as to just how bad things are on the seafloor.

Timothy Crane of the Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory -- an expert on natural sea-floor jets -- told the Guardian a full suite of information on the leaking pipe and some additional video could give him and other researchers all they need to make an informed estimation:

"If they took about 20 or 30 seconds of video with a very specific purpose of measuring flow rates, which means having the ROV stay completely still or parked on the bottom, and you got video of the plume close to the leak, and if it was illuminated and with high resolution, then you could get pretty good estimates of the flow rates."

http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2010-05/scientists-push-bp-hand-over-gulf-spill-video

Note, that BP themselves admit that it is possible that "60,000 barrels per day could potentially be flowing into the ocean." So much for your "the pipe is too small" theory. A 21" pipe is a very large pipe. What is actually restricting the flow is probably the BOM which may be as small as 7 inches. BP won't say (if they even know - it's possible that sand in the oil is continuously blasting the opening larger).

The truth is that it is not in BP's interest to have proof of how much oil is leaking. The real liars can't work with that. Confusion and misinformation as to the true extent of the damage done will be their only remaining defense. I guarantee there will be ongoing arguments about the actual volume of oil released that will never be resolved. BP has already won the first round.

So, why is this important? Let's try this statement:

"Frankly, any number greater than 0 is bad so the exact quantity really doesn't matter."

Except that it does. For three reasons.

One, devising a solution to the problem would be a lot easier if BP and the other entities trying to stop the leak had an idea just how big the problem actually is.

Two, the actual environmental impact will be determined by how much oil actual leaks into the Gulf. It is practically impossible to develop a plan to mitigate this damage without knowing the potential extent of the damage.

Three, and this one is related to number two, it will be impossible to acurately assess BP's liability for damages if the extent of the spill is unknown. BP is counting on this. For example, if the entire shrimping industry is wiped out, BP can always claim that it's only one third their fault. The shrimping industry was declining anyway, so the other two-thirds is from other causes.

That is the real (sad) truth.

[defendandprotect]

74. Your sole effort is to belittle the damage being done by BP --

That's the play in every one of your posts --

Are we supposed to ignore that?

[Enthusiast]

60. Based on what I watched on 60 Minutes

yesterday evening BP is guilty of criminal negligence.

[defendandprotect]

73. BP lied for a week telling us that there was 'NO LEAK' ... your replies are out of bounds....

[uponit7771]

62. GREAT ANALYSIS!! It's always good to get multiple sides of a story

[defendandprotect]

75. "Only fools never doubt" . . . especially when it comes to criminal capitalism . ..

[blindpig]

66. Never ascribe to incompetence what can be attributed to...

the profit motive. These are not stupid people.

Kill Capitalism.

[defendandprotect]

77. Look at the damage the oil industry has inflicted across the planet -- and the wars!!

Capitalism is wholly based on exploitation of nature, natural resources, animal-life --

and even human beings according to various myths of inferiority --

It's suicidal --

And time to move on -- long past time to move on!!

[blindpig]

86. Everything is a commodity or asset., it is their only valuation.

Those eleven dead men, the price of doing business. Same with the fishing folks livelihoods, the fish, birds, turtles......as long as the bottom line improves, it's all good.

[defendandprotect]

91. Capitalism means that everything is judged by the yardstick of a dollar bill....

[defendandprotect]

72. And some oil industry supporters have short memories . . . .

Re #1 -- Do you recall that BP claimed for a week or more that there was 'NO LEAK' --- !!!

Immediately establishing the fact that BP/Halliburton lie --


#3 -- The government has to take responsibility for this possibly world damaging event caused

by the oil industry "experts."

What you're arguing against is Russian government not taking over Chernobyl!

Is it possible you also think this is merely "a drop in the ocean" . . . ?

And the government takeover should include confiscation of BP and its assets -- if not also

Halliburton and its assets.

Putting it in government's hands ensures that we rid ourselves of profit schemes, PR schemes,

future lying and disinformation. And also ensures that we begin to collect the background

company information on ALL of the history of this event.

This is yet one more capitalist crime where even a monopoly company has no way to repair or

replace the damage they've done. There is no dollar bill capable of covering any of this

damage.

Nature, the environment, our oceans, animal-life, our planet ....

can't be judged by the yardstick of a dollar bill.

Take your dollar and see if you can eat it -- drink it -- plant it --

Stare at it and see if you see a sunset or a rainbow.

Only the truly criminal suggest that a dollar has any worth --

Nature is all --

[Mind_your_head]

46. *I* for one won't be anybody's corporate monkey......

but that's just *me*.....and I am not very 'popular', nor need/deserve to be.

[scentopine]

50. whoa - I just let rip on this very topic, didn't know any other democrats felt

the same way as I did - seems most democrats are placidly standing firm with BP, accepting their platitudes with a shrug "what else can we do".

A WHOLE FUCKING LOT! WE THE PEOPLE OWN THE GULF NOT BP! WE DON"T PAY THEM RENT. WE HAVE SCIENTISTS, ENGINEERS, EQUIPMENT AND KNOW HOW (It all hasn't been out sourced to India - yet).

Obama should have stepped in and taken the site under federal control and immediately placed a team of scientists on site to measure the flow and provide continuous updates to the citizens of this country. Instead it took nearly three weeks for BP to release the video of the leak. Way to go democratic leadership team. Way to go commander in chief.

It is obvious BP was hoping to find a solution before the full extent of the spill was known and Obama made a deal - you fix the leak and we won't ask any questions. Of course BP promised the leak wasn't so bad, because they would do anything to buy time. What's the worst that could happen? The leak doesn't get fixed, but they bought three weeks to spin and strategize on how to downplay the full extent of the damage.

I have serious doubts about Obama's leadership of country in a serious crisis. He can't place the nations security over politics as the deal making with the devil is way past cynical speculation. Putting Wall Street in charge of fixing their disaster, putting BP in charge of oil disaster - goddamn it, why not put Bin Laden in charge of our war on terror?

Meanwhile the Gulf is turning into a giant cesspool. How is that BP is the only organization on this planet that can provide information on the extent of the spill and on-going operations. We all sit around and wait for word from BP.

Fucking disgusted to be a democrat if this is how we lead our way when disaster and catastrophe strikes. Just turn it over to Fortune 500 mother fuckers.

What's next? A beer summit with the CEO of BP?

[pundaint]

56. Fucking disgusted just about sums it up for me.

[uponit7771]

63. Government steps in, takes over then BP blames he government....nah, tap BP for the money later...

....there are no government deep water drilling fixers and even if there were BP would just blame them for everything that went wrong like they're tryin to do with transocean

[defendandprotect]

87. People's government has to be in charge of this...final responsibility will rest with them...

Obama should wake up and get going --

It's getting to be like Bush looking out the airplane window at the "Katrina" damage!!

Come on, Obama -- !!!

[defendandprotect]

78. dupe --

NATURE IS ALL --

[defendandprotect]

79. Dollar bill is worthless vs nature -- Obama is still protecting capitalism's crimes....

NATURE IS ALL --

[scentopine]

89. I agree - he is protecting BP not the gulf -nt

[scentopine]

55. One more thought , we should have sent a destroyer out there

just to show BP we are fucking serious. No, instead we ask congress for a measly 10 Million money for lawsuits - over a catastrophe that will cost hundreds of billions.

That will show em we're serious... way to go DLC. Our leaders in Washington, always looking ourtr for their best interests.

Oil isn't washing up on the beaches of their summer homes, so no worries. Its all good.

[defendandprotect]

80. Agree with you -- except there are no millions, billions or zillions which can repair nature . . .

It's a gift to us and capitalism is based on its exploitation and destruction ---

Nature is ALL --

We have to stop judging everything by the yardstick of a dollar bill --

[AnArmyVeteran]

76. Obama should have treated the site like a crime scene from Day 1 !

And he should have kept BP and it's co-criminals away from the site. Then he should have sent in CSI type investigators to get all available evidence.

I keep getting disappointed with Obama but I know the alternative would be far worse. I wish Obama would grow a pair and get tough. Doesn't he realize he could be a hero if he just represented average Americans and did what was right?

We the people need a tough advocate in the White House, not a timid shell of a man who has surrounded himself with far too many corrupt people. He could start by firing everyone connected with Wall Street.

I was a delegate for Obama in 2008 but he needs to start doing what he promised, instead of being on the side of the rich and powerful. We don't need Bush-lite, we need a man with courage and someone who doesn't take shit from anyone...

[defendandprotect]

81. +1000%