Homeopathy is witchcraft, say doctors

[HuckleB]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/alternativemedicine/7728281/Homeopathy-is-witchcraft-say-doctors.html

"Hundreds of members of the BMA have passed a motion denouncing the use of the alternative medicine, saying taxpayers should not foot the bill for remedies with no scientific basis to support them.

The BMA has previously expressed scepticism about homoeopathy, arguing that the rationing body, the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence should examine the evidence base and make a definitive ruling about the use of the remedies in the NHS.

Now, the annual conference of junior doctors has gone further, with a vote overwhelmingly supporting a blanket ban, and an end to all placements for trainee doctors which teach them homeopathic principles.

...

The alternative medicine, devised in the 18th century by the German physician Samuel Hahnemann, is based on a theory that substances which cause symptoms in a healthy person can, when vastly diluted, cure the same problems in a sick person.

..."

------------------------


Well, duh!

:evilgrin: :smoke:

[LiberalLoner]

1. Thank you for this. Even the military now is starting to use therapies

like acupuncture and other alternative therapies. I am sick of therapies being offered that work only by placebo effect, and then being told there is something wrong with ME when they don't work. That applies to standard allopathic remedies, too, by the way. Too many faked studies out there to get a drug into use and to make a profit; then later independent studies show the medicine is no more effective than a sugar pill. And the doctors tell us patients we must be crazy if the pill didn't ease our symptoms because the initial studies showed it to be highly effective and the drug reps said it worked great...

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cassandra]

6. Queen Elizabeth and Prince Charles...

both use homeopathic cures. They seem to be doing well with them. Just saying.

[NoPasaran]

9. That explains Prince Charles' teeth, I guess

[eShirl]

12. "They seem to be doing well with them." Really, tell us.

[Warpy]

28. They work just fine if you're not really sick

If you're really sick and if you're really wooed out, then you're likely to delay the treatment that might have saved your ass until it's too late.

Of course your survivors will then point out that allopathic medicine doesn't work and that you should have stayed with the magic water.

[Codeine]

117. And when they actually get ill

the world's finest physicians will be treating them using the most cutting-edge Big Pharma drugs and techniques. Their Sugar n' Shit Water is for playtime.

[Soylent Brice]

220. "Their Sugar n' Shit Water is for playtime."

:spray:

[frogmarch]

10. +1

Absolutely. :thumbsup:

[SpiralHawk]

22. My family has had terrific results with homeopathy over many years

Bend over and kiss the ass of the corporate-industrial-pharma-medical complex if you wish, but I've been around hospitals and doctors and drugs a lot, and as a consequence I choose to shun drugs and to base my health care decisions on my own direct experience and observation. And I am in excellent health, thank you very much. And special thanks to the natural herbs and homeopathic remedies that have ensured it.

It is my right as a human being to 'Just Say No' to corporate drug culture, and to use natural remedies that have demonstrated their effectiveness to my satisfaction.

[HuckleB]

26. So you say YES to corporate scam artists, and think you're fighting da man.

Thanks for the giggle.

[Oregone]

34. The placebo effect is a powerful thing, but I can provide this for you cheaper

Magic memory water isn't the end all, be all of placebo

[TampaAnimus2010]

59. You got that right - placebo is a VERY powerful force

This is just more pseudoscience.

[wolfgangmo]

435. I'm not arguing, but I would like to point out that a study by the GAO

of all therapies currently being offerend in the US (and under the pervue of study at the NIH) found that of all the therapies used by MD's only 20% have any research backing up their efficacy.

I'm just saying that if one is going to advocate for a particular school of medical philosophy, then one should have ones research ducks in a row.

[HuckleB]

454. Hmm.

How Much Modern Medicine is Evidence-Based
http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=51

How much of modern medicine is "evidence-based"? (briefly revisited)
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2007/11/how_much_of_modern_medicine_is_evidenceb.php

[Desertrose]

41. I'm with you SpiralHawk...

Growing up in a pharmaceutical family....I don't trust em. period.

Bottom line, IMHO nature provides everything we need to heal & be healthy.



:hi:SH

[cali]

53. That's simply not factual.

Nature is a wonderful thing but no, it does not, in its raw state, provide everything we need to heal. If I get a serious case of pneumonia I'm not going to rely on herbal treatments or homeopathy.

[Desertrose]

68. Did I say "raw" state"?

I beg to differ with you. A large percentage of our pharmaceuticals began with what was discovered in nature. To say that that the chemical bits & pieces are superior to the whole "product" found in nature is not factual either.


Vedic & Chinese medicine have been around a very long time and have been proven to work. There are more reasons for illness beyond just physical symptoms which is the only thing allopathic medicine treats. Many of these older traditions factor those reasons in when treating a patient.



BTW, remind me again, where did penicillin originate?

[immoderate]

74. There's a difference between herbal medicine and homeopathic scams.

Some traditional herbal remedies really work. Homeopathic substances have been diluted to the point where you can guarantee that none of the active ingredient is even present. The excuses past this point are even more ridiculous, e.g. water has "memory."

The OP is not about traditional and natural remedies, such as aspirin, but homeopathic concoctions which are a scam. You're mixing oranges and armadillos.

--imm

[HuckleB]

104. And the usual red herrings are on display!!!!!

[Junkie Brewster]

133. Absolutely true! For instance, type one diabetes is caused by crybaby-ism in kids

Everyone knows that type one diabetes is caused by being a cry baby in kids. And type two diabetes? Why, that's caused by poor attention to lawn maintenance.

Remind me again why people don't just eat moldy bread when they have an infection?

[WolverineDG]

202. because not all mold creates penicillin nt

[Dorian Gray]

217. Vedic and Chinese medicines

are not homeopathic. Herbal remedies may have some significance. Homeopathic remedies are completely different.

[HuckleB]

227. They have plausibility.

But, alas, not much else.

[skepticscott]

244. And if you had an infection

and a doctor prescribed penicillin for it, would you tell him "Just give me the mold instead"?

[moriah]

70. If all you have are herbs, sometimes that's all you can use.

I mentioned my story about what happened to me. None of the cars could get out of the driveway since it was a slight uphill incline to the street, and it was a solid sheet of ice outside. I had a choice -- either try the herbs, or do nothing and pray for the ice to melt. I would have much preferred antibiotics. Have you ever drank essentially moss-flavored vodka? Not recommended.

I'm still glad we had them and actually knew what they did -- so many people buy stuff off the shelf looking at the pretty shiny claims on the label without having a clue if those particular herbs were even remotely related to the condition they claim to treat.

Yes, nature gave us most of modern medicine. Mold gave us antibiotics. Willow gave us aspirin. Datura gave us atropine. Ephedra gave us epinephrine. Properly prepared, willow can cure a headache. But just because willow is natural doesn't mean it's better than Anacin. A lot of people think "natural" must equate to "better" and "safer", but that's far from the truth. That datura will kill you if you try to raise your heart rate or treat an arrhythmia by taking it. Much safer to go with the purified prescription form.

I'm with you on the homeopathy thing tho.

[Taitertots]

95. If I get an infection in a cut, what from nature will stop the infection

What natural cure do you have for Asthma?

[Tutankhamun]

130. Asthma is often treated with ephedrine, the broncodilating ingredient in Bronkaid tablets.

Ephedrine is found in the herb ephedra. There's your natural treatment. There is no "cure" for asthma, but there are effective treatments.

However, I'm not big on natural medicine, and homeopathy has been debunked again and again. It is kind of annoying though, when people conflate all natural medicine with homeopathy.

A person with asthma would be much better off with Bronkaid than ephedra since the amount of ephedrine in ephedra varies widely. This can be a real safety issue.

[Taitertots]

160. I didn't conflate natural medicine and homeopathy

I responded to the claims about natural medicine being superior by asking how natural medicine could stop an infection.

I believe your response only furthers my point. There is a natural treatment, but it can be dangerous compared to the products of modern medicine.

[Tutankhamun]

219. I never said you conflated the two.

I mentioned people who conflate the two because elsewhere in this thread, homeopathy and natural medicine are conflated. I threw that in so I could slam homeopathy as completely ineffective without worrying that someone would see my post and say, "But you just said ephedra is an effective homeopathic treatment for asthma."

Then I stated that it's safer to just take Bronkaid because I didn't want anyone to think I was actually endosing ephedra over actual, measured doses of ephedrine (or endorsing natural medicine over the much more effective traditional medicine).

[moriah]

216. For an infection? That's actually fairly easy.

It's a good thing to remember if you're out in the woods and injure yourself too. Usnea lichen. Wash the wound in water (even unsterile stream water will be beneficial in comparison to dirt), then moisten the lichen and pack it around/in the wound. It works better when it's tinctured in alcohol because it seems to extract the usnic acid better, but if you cut yourself up in the woods and have no other access to first aid you likely don't have alcohol handy.

Weren't you ever a boy/girl scout?

As for asthma... simple coffee is known to help with bronchospasm when there is no better treatment available, as both caffeine and it's metabolite theophylline have some broncho-dilatory properties. Since I have no idea what ephedra actually looks like in the raw plant form, nor do I know if it growing anywhere near me, I'd probably not be all that into using it when I know I can find fresh coffee a lot quicker than I could go to a health food store to get ephedra -- because I could just as easily go to the pharmacy and pick up a refill on my albuterol as go to the health food store.

If I had access to both herbs and modern medicine, I'd likely be treating that infected wound with rubbing alcohol and neosporin or using an albuterol inhaler rather than rely on plants alone. I could see using usnea as an adjunct to a systemic antibiotic in treating boils or gum abscesses as it is an effective antibiotic, it is even effective against MRSA.

[Ignis]

486. Great helpful advice.

I was a Scout too, and it's amazing to see so many of the herbal remedies we were taught to use shuffled into the "woo" category by fanatics.

Sure, most of us will pop an aspirin rather than strip the willow bark from a tree, but let's not pretend that herbal remedies are completely ineffective, the result of someone trying to sell a product, or other "snake oil"-related charges.

It bears repeating for the umpteenth time: Herbalism =/= Homeopathy. :banghead:

[HuckleB]

522. What sort of "Scout" were you?

And what do you have against actual evidence?

This is but one example of the real world meeting up with your beloved "CAM" world:

http://scienceblogs.com/whitecoatunderground/2010/05/if_there_were_a_parallel.php

[Ignis]

541. Wow, stalk much?

Creeeeeeepy! :scared:

Also, please point to the specific post where I said I love CAM. I'd hate to have you making up any more lies about me.

Thanks! :hi:

[HuckleB]

557. That hilarious.

For someone who's been stalking me on this board, and putting words in my mouth... well, WOW! :wow:

You just saw the post where you praised the great CAM!

[GoneOffShore]

124. Yeah - I just took a natural remedy made from the bark of the willow tree

Aspirin.

[gmoney]

126. Evildoer!

Summoner of Satan!

[GoneOffShore]

136. I'm a follower of Big Yak!

[Taitertots]

44. You would have been healthy with or without your snake oil

"demonstrated their effectiveness to my satisfaction"
What methodology did you use? How many double blind tests have you performed

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

47. No they haven't.

You're all just making it up.

[moriah]

51. I'd say the herbs are likely a lot more helpful than homeopathy.

The German Commission E Monographs show that allopathic herbal remedies are actually accepted by medical professionals as legitimate treatments.

I've been cured of pneumonia with herbs alone. It wasn't really by choice but by necessity -- we were iced in for three weeks and I got deathly ill. My ex-husband was a doctor and was snowed in with me. He knew what pneumonia sounded like through a stethoscope, but there were no antibiotics available. Fortunately, we knew an herbal practitioner who grew her own plants or wildcrafted them, and tinctured them herself. That fall she'd given us usnea lichen tinctured in alcohol, as well as lobelia seed tinctured in vinegar. She didn't strain her tinctures before bottling so the longer they sat the stronger they got.

Usnea has been demonstrated in laboratory tests as well as a few clinical tests to contain an antibiotic compound that is effective against many bacteria, including staph and strep. It's been used as treatment for MRSA. Lobelia is a very powerful expectorant and emetic. More than a few drops of that tincture would induce vomiting almost immediately, but just barely enough to moisten my lips induced fits of violent coughing, tears streaming down my face, instant sinus drainage from massive production of loose, easily expelled, watery mucous, and the watery mucous secreted in my lungs helped to loosen the infected junk in them so I could cough it all up. They gave me about an ounce of the usnea tincture every hour while I was awake, and the lobelia tincture every three hours whether they had to wake me up to give it to me or not (if they had to wake me, they'd also have me do the ounce of usnea at that time).

When the roads were finally passable I was better, but I still went to a doctor for a follow-up to make sure everything was well. The chest x-ray done then showed evidence of having had pneumonia recently (scarring in the same lobe that my ex-hubby heard those nasty sounds in), but all of the infection was cleared.

Herbal medicine isn't quackery. IMHO homeopathy is. It may not be extremely harmful quackery, except when a person depends on it exclusively and refuses to go to a regular doctor at all even it doesn't work and they get worse. Homeopathy isn't going to cure cancer, for example. But teething tablets for a kiddo? Sure, I can see the uses even if they are sugar pills, if for no other reason than the parent is feeling like they are doing something to try to help the kiddo so they gain the feeling of being a little more in control of the situation instead of helpless and hopeless. Teething isn't going to kill the kid.

[cali]

52. well, that's nice but there's still zero science that backs up

the efficacy of homeopathic treatments. That's no more debatable than the fact that earth is not merely 4,000 years old.

[AngryAmish]

71. hahaha homeopathy

We are laughing at you.

[jmowreader]

105. Are you using full strength herbs, or ones at homeopathic dilution?

Herbal medicine works. It has for centuries. If you use herbs and homeopathic remedies, you may as well just use the herbs and wash them down with plain water.

Homeopathy relies on making a solution of product in water, then diluting the water until not one molecule of the product is left in it. For all the good that does, you may as well go buy a bottle of mineral water, write ARNICA or whatever on the side of it, and convince yourself there's arnica in it.

[HuckleB]

163. Most herbs have little to no more basis than homeopathy, in terms of proof beyond placebo.

They have plausibility, but not much beyond that in most cases.

[texastoast]

279. Yeah. Like pot.

It's all in our minds.

:eyes:

[texastoast]

365. Come on. Waiting for my feisty retort. n/t

[moriah]

370. There's a couple of reasons for that....

... One being that there aren't a lot of people who have the interest and the cash to sponsor trials, at least here in the US. Investors know they're able to make more money off of a chemical they can patent than off of a plant that grows somewhere. A lot of the research on plant constituents is more directed to finding a chemical that's effective that they can reproduce in the lab in a purified form. Believe me, I'm not complaining about that. I'm rather happy that we can increase a person's heart rate with purified atropine instead of trying to use datura or belladonna. It's really hard to get the doses right on those -- like, fatal usually. Same with hawthorne and foxglove -- digoxin isn't really something you want to get the dosage wrong on either.

A lot of the randomized clinical trials of herbs seem to come out of Germany. I think that's because of the way they regulate herbal preparations -- where here you can get ahold of just about any herb you want no matter how dangerous it is, in Germany many can only be obtained from licensed and regulated providers (including senna, for example, which is found in Super Dieter's Tea here and is a very strong, habit-forming, and dangerous laxative). Most preparations sold use standardized extracts with the active chemicals listed. The companies who produce these preparations are making enough money from them that they can afford to sponsor trials like pharmaceutical companies do here in the US.

But to just name a few herbs that have shown efficacy in randomized, placebo-controlled clinical trials...

Chasteberry/Vitex: Has been demonstrated to be more effective than placebo at reducing symptoms of PMS and cyclic mastalgia (breast tenderness that some see as a precursor to fibrocystic breast disease), and at correcting certain irregularities in the menstural cycle.

Passionflower: Demonstrated to be more effective at relieving pre-surgical anxiety when given up to 90 minutes before surgery than placebo, and was demonstrated to be as effective as oxazepam at treating generalized anxiety disorder after four weeks of therapy with far fewer side effects. Given that benzodiazepines like oxazepam have a tendency to cause such severe dependence and tolerance that a person can actually go into withdrawal symptoms while maintaining the same dose, and can cause seizures with abrupt withdrawal, I would likely suggest a person use passionflower rather than benzos long-term for anxiety. (Seizures are another matter entirely, and clonazepam -- another benzo -- is often given as a seizure preventative... so if your doctor is giving you them for seizures, please don't think you ought to switch over to passionflower based on what I said here! Please!!!)

Cranberry: Even cranberry juice cocktail was more effective than a similarly colored and tasting placebo at reducing the amount of bacteria and white cells in elderly women's urine (a population that is known for developing chronic urinary tract infections that are very difficult to treat). When the results of 10 randomized and placebo-controlled clinical trials with cranberry preparations were analyzed, with over 1000 women in total participating in the various studies, each of which lasted for a course of 12 months, they found a 35% reduction in incidence of urinary tract infection in comparison to placebo -- a statistically significant amount. Women who had a prior history of recurrent infections seemed to benefit the most.

Flaxseed: While there have been mixed results with trials seeking to investigate the effects of flaxseed on cardiovascular health, there is no question that it is an effective and gentle laxative. Metamucil, a bulk-forming laxative made from psyllium, works better to treat constipation than placebo. Flaxseed outperformed psyllium in a double-blind trial comparing the two in patients with irritable bowel syndrome -- patients who were given flaxseed reported less constipation, abdominal pain, and bloating than patients on psyllium over the three month trial, and continued to show improvement after the main trial ended when they remained on flaxseed. The German Commission E Monograph recommends it especially for treating patients who have abused stimulant laxatives in the past.

Tea Tree Oil: Has proven effective in treating athlete's foot and acne -- there was a trial with dandruff, but while it was placebo-controlled it was not double-blind.

St. John's Wort: Has been proven effective to treat depression, but interacts with a large number of other pharmecuticals and herbal medicines.

-----------

There are several other remedies that I've seen effective and that were used on me to good effect, but have not yet been used in randomized clinical trials. I think I told my story in another post on here.

Usnea, for instance, has been determined to be active against a wide range of bacteria in the test tube, and has a long history of use as both an internal and external antibiotic preparation, but no one has compared it against standard antibiotics in a randomized trial. Honestly, I don't know if it would be ethical to do so -- because giving a placebo to people suffering from a bacterial infection just might end up killing them. Usnea definitely wasn't my first choice, I used it because there was no other antibiotic available at the time. Also, the preparation I used was likely to be MUCH stronger than usnea lichen extract that is sold commercially, because the herb was harvested fresh and tinctured almost immediately, and the lichen was left in the tincturing menstruum for the several months between when it was made and when I used it.

Lobelia was used at that time, too. While there have been attempts to study lobelia and its constituents for possible use in quitting smoking, the way it was prepared when I used it (seeds in vinegar, and again, seeds left in the tincture menstruum for several months), it was so strong that I would never want to ingest more than the small amount I did, certainly not enough to use it to quit smoking! It rapidly induced coughing, made my eyes water, made my sinuses drain, and made it much easier for me to cough up what was in my lungs, but it was not a fun experience and I would prefer a combination of pseudoephedrine and guaifenisen (decongestant and expectorant) rather than use that shit again. Yes, it worked. Would I use it if I had OTC or prescription meds to treat the same symptoms? Hell no.

A lot of herbs that do have effects that could treat serious illnesses are just not safe to be relied on if modern medicine is available. Yes, hawthorne, as I mentioned earlier, has shown effective in randomized clinical trials to treat congestive heart failure. But the active ingredient, digoxin, is available in a purified form, and digoxin itself is now outdated in comparison to newer meds to treat CHF.

I think ignoring and shunning plants as medicines is just as idiotic as shunning modern medicines when they work better than the herbs. If someone was suffering from anxiety, I would recommend passionflower before suggesting they go to the doctor for benzodiazepines. But that's because benzos are not something you want to try as a first-line treatment for anxiety! But if someone had CHF and asked me how to treat it, I would tell them to get themselves to a doctor. There are some things you just don't play with.

[HuckleB]

418. Actually, that's the old excuse, but what's happening is that...

... the purveyors of CAM are doing everything they can to stay away from big trials. As long as they keep things small, they can pretend that some trials show efficacy, and ignore the ones that don't. If you know anything the N factor, you'll know why.

[moriah]

472. Yes, I took statistics, sweetie.

If you'd like the website where I found most of the information about the double-blind, placebo-controlled studies I mentioned, here ya go:

http://healthlibrary.epnet.com/GetContent.aspx?token=e0498803-7f62-4563-8d47-5fe33da65dd4&chunkiid=120459

They also have a very nice article on why glowing recommendations from people are not reliable. If you know someone who is about to do something incredibly stupid, like, for instance, rely on homeopathy to treat cancer, please give them the link. Here's the direct link to that article:

http://healthlibrary.epnet.com/GetContent.aspx?token=e0498803-7f62-4563-8d47-5fe33da65dd4&chunkiid=38405

It's entitled, "Why Does This Database Depend on Double-blind Studies?"

[HuckleB]

489. Then why post the nonsense you posted in the first place?

You are all over the place.

[moriah]

521. Because if you would READ, you would see it wasn't nonsense.

Look, I'm getting sick of arguing with someone who responds with simple one-liners to well researched posts. If you have any evidence that the clinical trials I mentioned were flawed, post it. I posted my source material.

As for the other post of mine that you completely disregarded, if you can post a single clinical trial to show efficacy in ANY prescription remedy for teething pain or colic, post it. Until then, yes, I feel I am justified in saying that a grippe water or teething tablets are as effective as dragging your kid to the doctor for either of those two conditions. And cheaper. Since they're cheaper than doctors, which one is the "scam"? As for harm, the fact that my parents were given PHENOBARBITAL to give to me as a child for colic, which was ineffective -- and if my parents had increased the dosage hoping that it would have stopped my screaming, very possibly fatal, which one is more harmful?

Also go take a look at the pages on Shaken Baby Syndrome, and look at what happens when parents lose their temper with a child who is screaming. Tell me if you think a $6.00 product that will help parents feel like the situation isn't hopeless is a "scam" if it prevents that.

[HuckleB]

527. Yes, it was.

You wouldn't have reversed course, if it wasn't. Keep contradicting yourself. Why would anyone stop you?

[moriah]

532. I didn't reverse course or contradict myself.

What I demonstrated was that I am not a fundie in either direction, which you obviously are. Your fundie beliefs are in the direction of "everything that is from a plant sucks and is awful and can't do anything and people should only take pills prescribed by doctors". You are assuming that I am a fundie in the direction of "everything that is from a plant is awesome and perfect and should be used for everything from sniffles to cancer because doctors are evil!" But I am not.

Yes, there is a middle ground. Yes, it is possible to use phytomedicines in an evidence-based manner. Yes, it is possible to recognize that cancer is not something phytomedicines need to treat.

[HuckleB]

534. Try reading your posts. They show otherwise.

And don't play the false balance BS. It shows that you don't really care about evidence.

[moriah]

537. Excuse me?

I showed you evidence. You ignored it. Even when the results from 1000 participants were analyzed, you say it's BS. Yes, I took statistics. It is statistically significant when in that large of a population there was a 35% reduction in urinary tract infections.

It is not false balance to use herbs in a rational manner. You completely ignored the post where I explained my viewpoint, saying all I did was believe in scams. I gave four examples of what I would do or recommend in certain situations. Here, I'll do it again. Maybe it will sink in.

When I'm having a self-limiting condition, such as a cold: I will take OTC remedies such as tylenol, pseudoephedrine, and diphenyhdramine, for reduction of symptoms when their side-effects are tolerable. I do not take pseudoephedrine when I need to sleep. I do not take diphenhydramine when I need to stay awake. I will use a steam inhalation from a pot where I have put tea-tree, eucalyptus, and thyme oils in the pot multiple times a day, as it is limited more by my ability to get to a pot of boiling water than it is by the side effects. After inhaling the steam my sinuses drain and it neither makes me sleepy or keeps me awake. I use these symptomatic treatments until the cold resolves itself, and they make me feel better.

When I'm experiencing a non-life threatening, minor condition, such as insomnia: I will use herbal remedies that have proven effective in clinical trials to reduce anxiety and insomnia. If they do not work and I have eight hours to sleep, I will take the prescription drug Ambien that has been prescribed to me, but I do not take it all the time because it has significant tolerance and addiction potential, and is not something I can take when I am going to need to be alert if I am awakened during the eight hours after I take it. I can be awakened after taking my herbal treatment and still be able to handle an emergency, although I do not drive after having taken them. If I'm awakened after taking Ambien I do not remember anything that happened. Believe me, that's not fun.

When I have developed a significant condition that requires medical attention but cannot get into the doctor right away, such as a toothache or abscessed tooth: I make an appointment with my doctor if my dentist can't see me within a few days to get antibiotics. Until I can be seen by one of them to get an antibiotic prescription, I will take tylenol and use clove oil on the painful area to reduce pain, and use some of the homemade usnea tincture as a mouthwash and use the tinctured usnea itself that is in the mixture compressed against the tooth as it has antibiotic properties. After I have been seen for a prescription of antibiotics, I stop using the usnea but continue using the clove oil to reduce pain as it works better for me than benzocaine-containing topical oral gels, until my dentist has been able to see me to put in a sedative filling -- which contains eugenol, the exact chemical in clove oil, but puts it in closer to the nerve, after he has been able to clean out and sanitize the area so that infectoin does not continue. Usually after a few days of that he puts in a standard filling, as the nerve reacts better to a filling after several days of treatment with eugenol.

When I experience symptoms that could be life-threatening, such as tachycardia -- I get my ass to the doctor or ER as appropriate (if, for example, the tachycardia is so severe that I am passing out, the ER it is.)

[HuckleB]

556. You offered one single study, which is quite meaningless in the big picture.

Your posts clearly contradict one another. Your undergrad stats class doesn't mean jack. It is foolish to "balance" herbs. The overwhelming evidence for the vast majority of herbs shows that they are not worth a penny.

For yet another example of the full reality of the lack of evidence used the sCAM artists: http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=5225

[wolfgangmo]

441. Considering that most medicines are less useful than placebo effects...

... may it would be.

[HuckleB]

459. Now that's some claim.

Please support it.

PS:

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=4304

[skepticscott]

242. I expect that if you or any member of your family

came down with a life-threatening staph infection, or acute appendicitis, you'd be sucking up to the CIPMC big time

[wolfgangmo]

443. I know you are just making a point...

and given the recent tone of conversation on the DU, it is unlikely that you are interested in engaging in conversation, although I will admit the possibility, however I would like to point out that the 2 cases you point out are the pervue of emergency medicine, of which no-one that I know would ever recommend homeopathics.

I own a general and family practice clinic that deals with metabolic, chronic, and other long term diseases (mostly). We don't deal with emergencies either. Which does not make us either suck ups nor homeopaths.

[HuckleB]

455. What would you recommend "homeopathics" for?

[skepticscott]

464. The point is that

those eschewing drugs and conventional medical treatment are mired in hypocrisy. They tellingly back off from their principles at the first sign of any ailment or condition that they know has no chance of going away by itself. Just a bunch of Christian Scientists with broken legs or appendicitis.

[Cha]

324. They work amazingly well..but, if someone wants

to go down the drug route prescribed by Drs..I say go for it.

[HuckleB]

325. I'm glad you'll allow those who care about evidence to follow evidence-based treatments.

[Cha]

330. Yeah, you should extend the same courtesy.

[HuckleB]

334. To scam artists?

Nah.

[wolfgangmo]

446. If I was to only extend that courtesy to followers of evidence based treatments

I would need to exclude almost all doctors.

The problem with so called evidence based treatment, or any other standard of care, statistically normed recommendations is that, like all statistics, the stats break down when applied on an individual basis. As the owner of a medical clinic I see this all the time. The text book will recommend something for a specific treatment, but our medical director (who is a little like House but better looking) will go in another direction. When asked why by other staff she will explain in plain, research based, terms that shows an understanding of statistics. Where the rubber meets the road is at the patients skin, and what works statistically may not work for an individual.

Evidence based medicine is a good idea but it has the fatal flaw of not accounting for statistical variation. And not all evidence based medicine has been correctly researched. Chemo is one example. There is a lack of both a double blind foundational study that compares chemo agents against control normals in clinical settings. It also lacks (generally) longitudinal studies. Most chemo studies stop following patient outcome after 6 months. Very few go out as far as 5 years. There is growing concern in some circles that this omision is problematic because chemo agents are intrisically cancer causing. The worry is that some, or all, or them may be causing an increased incidence of other or all types of cancer later in life. Again we don't know because no company is paying for THIS type of research. It is, I think, a glaring omision.

As well the GAO published a study a few years back (I'll look for the link and see if I can find it but perhaps some of you other smart lads and lasses can help out?) that showed that only about 20% of standard treatment protocols are backed up by any relevant studies. That is a lot of wishful thinking.

I beleive that CAM has it's place. Where I see some types of alternative treatments working well is with chronic diseases. And yes, my clinic does work in integration with other health professionals. After all, even if the CAM providers we work with are only getting the same results as placebo that puts them as better than many pharmaceuticals.

Can't we all just get along?

[HuckleB]

451. Please link us to this GAO Study. Thanks.

Further, if you're going to believe CAM has a place, why don't you go further, and find some evidence to support it first? NCCAM is not having a whole lot of success so far.

PS:

How Much Modern Medicine is Evidence-Based
http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=51

[Kalyke]

61. I wouldn't expect any less in a post from someone with the user name, "Codeine."

:rofl:

[Ignis]

265. "Witchcraft" doesn't mean quite the same thing as you might think, anymore.

I presume you're using the term to mean traditional, sympathetic magic--the (ab)use of a poppet or other "voodoo doll" to elicit similar results in the "real world" target.

But the English word "witchcraft" has been used over the past century to describe quite a wide variety of occult and psycho-therapeutic practices in use for millenia, so I think it's important to define our terms here. Don't you?

:hi:

[KonaKane]

271. It's been coopted by ignorant, angry little people who don't know anything about it.

Oddly like the rightwingers do.

[Ignis]

272. You said it.

But not everyone's got the memo yet, so I pitch underhand. ;)

[HuckleB]

292. Hogwash is hogwash, whatever you want to call it.

The hogwash camps can fight it out, but that doesn't change much for those who live in an evidence-based and science-based world.

[KonaKane]

296. One man's hogwash is another's spiritual truth.

It's not so one dimensional as your "scientific mind" makes it out to be.

[HuckleB]

298. "Spiritual truth."

You really don't have a clue, do you?

[KonaKane]

302. Oh yes, I have a clue. All you have is anger and denunciation.

Like I said, just like a religious fundamentalist.

[HuckleB]

303. Keep repeating yourself, and putting words in the mouths of others.

It doesn't change reality.

[KonaKane]

304. Your words condemn you enough.

[HuckleB]

307. ROTFLMAO!

:rofl:

[KonaKane]

309. Yes, we can see you're stuck. That's usually what laughter indicates.

Good luck with that.

[HuckleB]

313. ROTFLMAO!

:rofl:

Actually, it means you are providing one beautiful thing: A lot of laughter!

[Ignis]

332. Spoken like a true Scientismist.

Let the New Inquisition begin!

[HuckleB]

344. Says the believer!

Now that's irony!

[Ignis]

359. Oh tell us, Great Oracle, what do I believe?

As a confirmed agnostic, I'm rather curious to hear what you so firmly believe. I find the beliefs of most fanatics to be amusing, if not founded in the reality of tens of thousands of years of human experience.

[HuckleB]

361. Keep the usual red herrings coming!

They're awesome!

http://www.getbetterhealth.com/acupuncture-doesnt-work-believers-ignore-evidence/2009.03.23

[Ignis]

381. You still haven't proven that I'm a "believer." That's cowardly.

But hit-and-run personal attacks seem to be par for the course here.

[HuckleB]

407. Your posts make that clear.

You believe in things for which there is no evidence.

[Ignis]

481. Which things, specifically? Either stop lying about me or provide evidence.

For someone who claims to worship at the altar of "Science," you appear to have precious little understanding of the scientific method.

[HuckleB]

525. How am I lying?

And on what basis to you claim that I don't understand the scientific method?

[Ignis]

542. You've repeatedly lied by claiming I'm a "believer," yet...

You can't be bothered to support your assertion with the most trivial of effort.

I could say that apples are always blue, but if the data doesn't support that conclusion, I would be exposed as a ridiculous liar.

...Which is why I expect you won't provide any data to support your claim. :hi:

[HuckleB]

558. I did support my assertion.

Of you've done nothing but lie about me, while stalking me, and now you are denying that I supported by assertion.

:rofl:

[Ignis]

510. A link for the clueless:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientism

Googling is HARD WORK! :(

[HuckleB]

526. And another red herring is offered up in an attempt to distract people from paying attention!

:rofl:

[Ignis]

544. Did you just learn the term "red herring" recently? Don't wear it out!

Providing a definition isn't quite the same thing as employing the ignoratio elenchi logical fallacy. You must have used the phrase "red herring" in more than half of your posts in this thread, but I don't think you really understand what it means.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=ignoratio+elenchi&l=1

A little knowledge in a little mind can be a dangerous little thing.

[HuckleB]

559. I've used the term correctly.

Thank you for showing that you don't understand a basic term, while pretending that you are smarter than you are.

Keep digging that hole of yours.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

3. Does this mean I should not rely on my Voodoo doll?

Damn.

[azul]

18. I sent my Bush doll to some poor kids in Iraq.

Seemed to be defective or busted.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

20. That was thoughtful of you.

I hope they had a nice bonfire.

[backscatter712]

4. If water has a memory...

[fleabert]

24. +100 !!! nt

[Johonny]

25. +1

[Taitertots]

49. Homeopathic shit water is why the world is in the toilet n/t

[Robb]

137. Of course I look at that

...and wonder why there's a double trap in that system. :D

[Maru Kitteh]

208. Old Victorian house maybe?

[SidDithers]

140. Nice pic...

:hi:

Sid

[msongs]

5. there they go again, badmouthing prayer and religion lol nt

[Walk away]

7. Here is my Homeopathy story....

Last year I had a really bad fall that resulted in a broken leg and a complete rupture of my patella tendon. As I was laying on the ground in hideous pain and waiting for the ambulance, a woman came up to me and handed me a vial of water/homeopathic medicine. She explained that she couldn't stop but that this would help me.

Thank god I had a cell phone and had called 911 myself because this idiot turned and walked away. It takes a special kind of nut to believe in that crap.

[Maru Kitteh]

210. Wow. That sounds like a really bad comedy skit starring John Cleese.

just. unreal.

It's kind of hard to quantify the "are you fucking kidding me?" factor on that.

If my mind was able to make it past the screaming pain of a patellar tendon rupture I'd ask someone to run after her and smack her in the forehead on my behalf.

Yes I would.

[Walk away]

222. I am comforted by the belief that she will turn to homeopathy......

to cure some deadly disease she contracts. That'll teach her!

At the time I was in complete shock from the accident but even so I wanted to jump up and punch her in the face!

[wolfgangmo]

447. Is that a story about homeopathy? I don't think so.

It's doesn't qualify as anecdotal evidence.

It is a story of a bystander giving inappropriate help. Accident rule number 1 is dialing 911. Get help moving to you.

But your story is not a condemnation of homeopathy if you think about it logically rather then emotionally.

[Christa]

8. Homeopathy and acupuncture only works in the mind

so you may call it witchcraft.

[Beaverhausen]

58. I beg to differ with you on accupuncture

accupuncture has recently helped my husband and my boss with pain that drugs, months of physical therapy and even surgery could not help.

[dorkulon]

110. Acupuncture works somewhat, but it doesn't matter who performs it.

That's according to a recent study. In other words, there is an anesthetic effect produced by poking people with needles, but you might as well have your paperboy do it.

[Christa]

114. It is all in the mind

It works the same way placebos work.

[Beaverhausen]

149. Guess what?My husband wanted his surgery to work but it didn't.

so explain how accupuncture is all in the mind if it helped the pain that his surgery did not?

He went to accupuncture to humor me, and was very surprised that it worked for him.

[Christa]

225. As I said before

Placebos "works" as well.

[wolfgangmo]

448. You can't say that.

Why? Because we don't know how placebos work.



Yet.




So you are not able to equate one with the other and then comment about mechanism or effect. Not and keep your intellectual street cred.

[HuckleB]

460. "...there is a literature ... evidence suggests that placebos generally do not work."

Placebo Effects Revisited
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=4304

[knitter4democracy]

148. JAMA and the New England Journal of Medicine agree with you.

I had it for vertigo the doctors couldn't cure or even figure out. I didn't believe in it at all--was the weirdest thing, so I just went along with it to humor my doctor and hoping something might make the vertigo better. In three treatments, it all went away and stayed away, even though I thought the guy was a quack. It made a believer out of me.

[HuckleB]

164. You mean they've published small studies that show some evidence of benefit.

Meanwhile, they've published similar small studies that show no evidence of benefit. The overall evidence base is almost nil.

[knitter4democracy]

168. They used the empirical method over a thousand years, though.

How do we ignore all that history of trial and error?

[HuckleB]

169. AKA, they used anecdote, and they still try to push the faith healing nonsense known as chi.

Don't pretend otherwise.

[knitter4democracy]

171. We know that as electricity these days.

We know that the human body has an electric field, and we use TENS units and other electrical stimulation devices to help with pain. How is this all that different?

As for anecdote, they mapped out the electrical fields and points where they can manipulate that. That came from years of trial and error and specific notes on what worked and what didn't.

I thought it was a load of crap myself until he made my vertigo go away. The specialist wanted to put (gently, mind you) electrodes on my eardrums, spin me around in a chair, and watch my eyes. Um, I very gently told him to go to hell, and the needles thing worked, even when I'd given up on anything working and thought the acupuncture guy was a quack. My doctor told me to try it after reading a NEJM article on acupuncture, and it worked for me. I realize that's just anecdotal, but that's why I'm arguing for it.

[HuckleB]

174. Your vertigo probably was about to go away, anyway.

If you actually read much research, you would know that. However, you prefer anecdotes to science. I don't.

[knitter4democracy]

180. I'd had it for months at that point.

I'd actually had it for years, off and on. At that point, I'd had it for four months, and the two specialists couldn't figure out what was causing it. I went through testing and diet modification, etc., and the acupuncture was the only thing that worked. It's easy to write off as a mere coincidence, but there's no evidence of that, either, given the timeline. There are cases of intractable vertigo, and there are some small studies that say acupuncture works. It did for me.

Now, I am not saying I would've relied on it for my kidney tumor or my chronic appendicitis. I needed surgery for those, of course. It might have helped with the pain, though, given that I can't take narcotics, but it wouldn't have dealt with the underlying issues at all. I'm not one of those saying acupuncture works for everything or that medicine is bad, just that each has a place.

[HuckleB]

182. As have many other people, and, for many of them, it went away at some point.

PTs will be honest enough to tell people that the likelihood of certain treatments is no greater than non-treatment. Acupuncturists, chiropractors and the like are not honest enough to do that. You can buy what you want, but the evidence does not support your anecdote.

[knitter4democracy]

195. My acupuncture guy said it might not work.

He said to give it four treatments, and then we'd re-evaluate and see if I wanted to continue. It was gone after the third one. I went for a couple more times (for other things that I found were better with his treatments), and then I stopped when I was better.

Odd how the MDs never said that the vertigo would go away without treatment eventually. So, PTs and my acupuncture guy are more honest than two specialists?

[HuckleB]

200. If you say so...

That would be a first.

[Maru Kitteh]

212. That's what my voodoo therapist and my astrologer said to me last week too! "Give it 4 more

treatments."

I don't understand why........ *clank*

[knitter4democracy]

254. That was what he said at the beginning, at the first appt.

That was better than anything the MDs said, btw.

[Beaverhausen]

175. what the fuck is your problem?

I've seen two people close to me live without pain for the first time in years due to accupuncture.

Both of them took months and months to convince to even give it a try.

Seriously, what is your problem with it?

Not everything is cured with a pill, a drug or a scalpel.

[HuckleB]

178. It's a scam, with an evidence base that would not be allowed for any new treatment an MD could try.

That's my problem with it. It's time to stop the scam artists from stealing money.

Your feigned anger doesn't change any of that.

[knitter4democracy]

181. Aspirin and ibuprofen wouldn't pass today, either.

Too many side effects. Some surgical techniques wouldn't pass today, either, and yet we still use them because they work.

Medicine is almost as much an art as it is a science. That's what my ex was taught at his top-tier med school and in residency. There are many options to treat each condition--you match the best one to the patient, and that's an art.

[HuckleB]

183. Aspirin might not.

Ibuprofen probably would. And you clearly are not responding to the content of my post. Further, you are now making boring old hypotheses that you have no basis with which to make.

:eyes:

[knitter4democracy]

196. I was merely pointing out that we have many treatments today that wouldn't pass.

That's all.

Um, not to be nosy, but are you always this nasty here? I haven't been on much lately, due to a lot of life crap, and I don't remember having run into you before.

[HuckleB]

199. My post above actually made that part of the matter clear.

[Beaverhausen]

186. My anger is directed toward the surgeon who lied to my husband

about the success rate of his surgeries. He was and is a fucking greedy asshole lying piece of shit.

His accupuncturist, on the other hand, didn't lie to my husband. She helped him with his pain.

[HuckleB]

189. Anecdotes!

Those are awesome!

Especially when they are unverifiable!

[Name removed]

193. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HuckleB]

198. Awesome!

On the Internet, no one is going to buy those routines.

[texastoast]

293. Your beloved medicines don't always work

And sometimes they kill. And sometimes they work opposite from what they are supposed to do. But they get "approved" because big pharma paid the bucks to satisfy some uncertain criteria that is not verifiable in a long-term perspective.

But I see you have much faith in all that.

And you diss those who have turned away from big money druggies and have embraced, proven millinia-old ways of healing.

Well. Really.

[HuckleB]

335. Yup.

And that doesn't justify scam artists one bit.

[Ignis]

382. What a remarkable lack of empathy.

:thumbsdown:

[Name removed]

471. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

480. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HuckleB]

523. And yet another baseless personal attack.

Thanks!

:rofl:

[Ignis]

543. No, the personal attack was your post the Mods nuked.

But thanks for swinging by again to throw a little tantrum over it. :hi:

[HuckleB]

560. What personal attack did I make?

You joined the thread with your little "scientismist" attack.

How easily you forget.

[knitter4democracy]

197. I am very sorry for what your husband went through.

I am alive today because of two amazing surgeons and their teams, but I have heard of many cases similar to your husband's. I am sorry he was in pain--pain is horrific and changes a person, often not for the better. I am glad that he has someone who could help, even a little bit. :hug:

[Dorian Gray]

475. I don't really care about this argument

all that much, but I've had MDs suggest acupuncture as an alternative therapy in my quest for getting pregnant. Both my GP and my fertility specialist suggested acupuncture treatments as there have been studies of its effectiveness.

I did include it in my repertoire. I don't credit it with getting pregnant. (I suspect that fertility drugs had more to do with that, even though I ended up pregnant on an off month from treatments.) I am now almost 18 weeks pregnant, though, after 3 years of trying with unexplained infertility. Acupuncture was not cheap, nor do I believe it was an integral part of my fertility plan, but I do think that it is interesting that not one, but two medical doctors (who are not in the same practice) suggested it as a concurrent treatment based upon studies that they have read.

Just saying.



(I liken acupuncture with massage, to be honest. I feel relaxed and carefree after a session, which probably provides me with more relief than anything else.)

[HuckleB]

504. And that justifies what?

It certainly shows that the MDs in question need to review how to read research.

[Dorian Gray]

513. Actually

it shows that acupuncture is accepted by people in reputable NYC medical practices more so than some anonymous internet commando. At least, I'm alleging so. No way to prove it.

I would NOT encourage people to do it, especially in lieu of anything else. But when one of the top fertility specialists in NYC recommends it, and I can afford the treatment? Sure, I'll give it a try. ::Shrug::

I'm not trying to justify anything, either. Sharing experience, as people on the internets tend to do.

If you don't like what I have to say... oh well. I am certainly not arguing that acupuncture is a panacea for all ailments, nor should it be used in lieu of proper western medical care.

[HuckleB]

520. And that justifies what?

It doesn't mean that acceptance is justified by the evidence base.

Pay attention, please.

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?cat=8

[HuckleB]

528. PS...

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=43

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/11/thatll_teach_em_for_using_an_actual_vali.php

[Dorian Gray]

531. You totally ignored

everything I said and repeated exactly what you've said throughout the thread.

I'm not trying to JUSTIFY anything.

Though none of your websites posted changes the fact that one of the top fertility specialists in NYC suggested I try acupuncture along with all my hormone injections and IUI. So, we are at an impasse. I'd rather follow his suggestions than yours.

[moriah]

533. He ignores everything we say.

He is content in his worldview that absolutely nothing from alternative medicine of any stripe is effective, and that it's impossible for anyone to use any "alternative" medicine in an evidence-based manner. When confronted with evidence, he denies the evidence.

It's like arguing with a Fundamentalist Christian about creationism. It's useless.

[HuckleB]

536. I'm open to evidence.

Anecdotes are not very strong evidence, especially when there is plenty of research that goes against anecdotes brought by individual posters.

But since you don't get that, you'll just make the usual BS statements against my character. That's quite pitiful.

[moriah]

548. You also ignore evidence of clinical trials.

Even 1000 people isn't large enough for you.

You are locked into your worldview and it will never change. Enjoy yourself!

[Ignis]

545. Astute analysis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientism

[Dorian Gray]

549. You are right.....

:)

[HuckleB]

535. You keep telling yourself that.

It doesn't make it true. You offered anecdotes. I offered evidence. That's not ignoring a thing.

[Dorian Gray]

552. You want studies

I'm sure there will be a "problem" with these, but here you go:

http://www.aborm.org/research/dieterleicsi.pdf

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11937123



Dumbed Down USA Today:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2008-02-07-acupuncture-fertility_N.htm

3 studies found it beneficial, 3 found a "trend" toward benefit and 1 found it non-beneficial.


Of course, the debate is still on about it. But there are studies out there that fertility specialists are using when suggesting this as a complementary treatment.
I offered anecdotes. I never tried to dress it up as anything else. Now I'm offering studies. Do with them what I suspect you will... tell me they mean nothing.

Oh well. Who cares?


So, I finally know what it's like to get into a "La la la la la la la la la! I can't hear you!" argument with you.

[HuckleB]

561. So that's all you have?

Meanwhile, how much evidence did I offer, so you could ignore the overwhelming balance of evidence against your MD's advice?

[Ignis]

275. +1

Just because Western science hasn't figured out why acupuncture works, doesn't mean that it doesn't work.

[HuckleB]

280. The evidence: It doesn't work.

Try again.

[Ignis]

331. Peer-reviewed studies of the efficacy of acupuncture are...

...in their infancy, and they stand against centuries of annectdotal evidence to the contrary.

Unfortunately for the latter, that evidence comes from the East. :scared: They can't possibly kept accurate records before the West discovered Science during the Renaissance, can they?

Perish the thought, Old Bean!

[Name removed]

350. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HuckleB]

530. What medical treatments used during the Renaissance are still in use?

Ever wonder why they're not?

The peer-reviewed studies done to date on acupuncture have not shown any reason to go much further with the research. They are failing miserably.

http://seedmagazine.com/content/article/acupuncture_real_or_sham/

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/08/the_largest_randomized_acupuncture_study.php

With much more here: http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?cat=8

[Donald Ian Rankin]

550. You make your case poorly: anecdote is no substitute for evidence.

I believe (I'm not an expert) that the balance of evidence *is* that acupuncture has some benefits beyond those of the placebo effect (unlike most forms of complementary/alternative "medicine"). But your interpretation of your personal experience is not a significant contribution to that body of evidence.

[Dorian Gray]

553. Was this in response to my post above?

I wasn't trying to make a case for anything other than point out that some medical doctors actually suggest that their patients might want to consider acupuncture in regard to fertility treatments. (While none I know require it or perform the practice themselves. It was in the vein of: "some studies suggest that there may be success with acupuncture and the transferral of embryos....)

It's not all that uncommon a practice.

Is that a case for anything? No. I have no idea whether acupuncture actually did jack shit for me, other than providing relaxation time. But I certainly enjoyed those 45 quiet minutes while they lasted. (Which I believe I stated in my original post on the topic.) I wasn't making a scientific case for anything. Just sharing experience. As I stated above.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

555. No, it was a response to Beaverhausen's post #58

I hadn't even heard it suggested that accupuncture could have applications to fertility treatment; I have no idea what evidence for or against that there is.

[zazen]

11. hmmm . . . these Advisory Board members of NIH's NCCAM aren't exactly flakes

What's important is to study these claims through rigorous empirical research. Then we can throw out 90% and retain and refine the 10% that do have benefit, particularly since some of these benefits are less risky for patients than those from allogenic medicine.



http://nccam.nih.gov/

Members of NIH's National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine

Member Roster
National Advisory Council for Complementary and Alternative Medicine (NACCAM)

Chair
BRIGGS, Josephine P., M.D. (2011)
Director
National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine
National Institutes of Health
Bethesda, Maryland

Members
ALVORD, Lori Arviso, M.D. (2010)
Physician
Department of General Surgery
Southern Maine Medical Center
Biddeford, Maine

BARNES, Stephen, Ph.D. (2010)
Professor of Pharmacology and Toxicology
Associate Director
Purdue-UAB Botanicals Research Center for Age-Related Diseases
Director
Targeted Metabolomics and Proteomics Laboratory
UAB Comprehensive Cancer Center
University of Alabama at Birmingham
Birmingham, Alabama

BIRDSALL, Timothy C., N.D., F.A.B.N.O. (2011)
Vice President, Integrative Medicine
Cancer Treatment Centers of America
Goodyear, Arizona

BOWDEN II, Boyd W., D.O. (2010)
Orthopedic Surgeon
Private Practice
Columbus, Ohio

BRONFORT, Gert, D.C., Ph.D. (2011)
Research Professor
Associate Vice President of Research
Director of the Neck and Back
Research Program
Northwestern Health Sciences University
Wolfe-Harris Center for Clinical Studies
Bloomington, Minnesota

BURKE, Adam, Ph.D., M.P.H., L.Ac. (2012)
Director
Institute for Holistic Health Studies
Associate Professor
Department of Health Education
San Francisco State University
San Francisco, California

CARLOTA, Lupo T., M.D., Dip. Ac. (2011)
President and Founder
Medical Acupuncture Research Institute of America
Memphis, Tennessee

COHEN, Sheldon, Ph.D. (2010)
Robert E. Doherty Professor of Psychology
Department of Psychology
Carnegie Mellon University
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

CURHAN, Gary, C., M.D., Sc.D. (2013)
Associate Professor of Medicine
Harvard Medical School
Associate Professor of Epidemiology
Harvard School of Public Health
Senior Investigator, Channing Laboratory
Boston, Massachusetts

DEKOSKY, Steven T., M.D., F.A.C.P. (2013)
Vice President and Dean
University of Virginia School of Medicine
Charlottesville, Virginia

FOLKMAN, Susan, Ph.D. (2013)
Professor Emeritus
University of California, San Francisco
San Francisco, California

GASS, Margery, L.S., M.D. (2010)
Executive Director
North American Menopause Society
Mayfield Heights, Ohio

KAHN, Janet R., Ph.D. (2012)
Executive Director
Integrated Heath Care Policy Consortium
Community Health Center of Burlington
Burlington, Vermont

LIN, Shin, Ph.D. (2011)
Professor of Biomedical Engineering
University of California, Irvine
Irvine, California

SHEAR, Katherine M., M.D. (2012)
Marion E. Kenworthy Professor of Psychiatry
Columbia University School of Social Work
New York, New York

TAYLOR, Herman A., M.D., M.P.H., F.A.C.C., F.A.H.A. (2011)
Professor of Medicine
University of Mississippi Medical Center
Jackson, Mississippi

TIAN, Xiaoming, M.D., CMD., L.Ac. (2010)
Director
Academy of Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine
Director
Wildwood Acupuncture Center
Bethesda, Maryland

Ex Officio Members
COLLINS, Francis, M.D., Ph.D.
Director
National Institutes of Health
Bethesda, Maryland

EZEJI-OKOYE, Stephen, M.D.
Deputy Chief of Staff
VA Palo Alto Health Care System
Department of Veterans Affairs
Palo Alto, California

NIEMTZOW, Richard C., COL., M.D., Ph.D., M.P.H.
Colonel, USAF, MC, FS
Consultant for CAM for the USAF Surgeon General
President American Academy of Medical Acupuncture

SEBELIUS, Kathleen
Secretary
U.S. Department of Health and Human Services
Washington, DC 20201

Executive Secretary
GOLDROSEN, Martin, Ph.D.
Director, Division of Extramural Activities
National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine
National Institutes of Health
Bethesda, Maryland

[Kookaburra]

13. Isn't homeopathy the same basic principle behind

allergy shots? And doctor's are quick to push those?

[Codeine]

14. No, it is not. nt

[cali]

15. not even close.

[derby378]

23. Here's the difference...

Allergy shots use a tiny amount of the allergen in order to trigger a response from the body which will hopefully develop a resistance to the allergen.

Some snake handlers take a similar approach to snake venom, where they deliberately ingest small amounts of snake venom in order to build up some sort of immunity to snakebite. There have been some successes from this.

Homeopathy looks like it follows the same principle, but what often happens is that homeopaths dilute the original substance out of existence. Some mass-market remedies like Umcka or Zicam probably contain a tiny amount of the "active" ingredient, but a vial of Apis Mellifica 30C doesn't contain a single molecule of the original substance in the entire vial. However, the spirit-like "essence" of Apis Mellifica is supposed to be present in those pills, even if the actual substance is not, and this essence acts on the "vital force" of the homan body in order to alleviate disease.

Or so goes the original theory, at least. There has also been a lot of speculation that water molecules might have some sort of memory that retains the original imprint of the substance in question, but that's another story.

[backscatter712]

37. Ah, water with a memory.

See the picture I posted above on what I think of that theory.

[nickinSTL]

45. heh. that was a useful explanation

I've never known that about homeopathy.

I imagine that homeopaths end up having to dilute the "active" ingredient out of a lot of these because if they don't, they might actually end up CAUSING the problem in the first place - the likelihood of infecting someone would be too high - which would mean serious liability issues.

Water with a memory? :eyes:

wow, that's...stupid.

[derby378]

218. Homeopaths do test small amounts of the substance itself on volunteers

These trials are known as "provings." Healthy volunteers ingest tiny amounts of the substance to see what sort of symptoms the agent produces in a healthy individual. The symptoms are noted meticulously and filed away for future reference. When a patient develops those same symptoms, the homeopathic doctor will prescribe for that patient not the substance itself which was used in the provings, but the homeopathic dilution I mentioned earlier.

One of the most famous provings in America was for nitroglycerin. The stuff was so potent that you could actually try diluting nitroglycerin to something like a 3X or 4X homeopathic potency, and ingesting sugar pills impregnated with the dilution would still produce the same world-class migraine you'd get from placing a small drop of pure nitro on the tongue. Constantine Hering, the Philadelphia homeopath who researched nitroglycerin back in the 1850s when it was first discovered, figured that a homeopathic preparation of nitroglycerin acted on the circulatory system and could be used as a headache remedy. He was very close, indeed - smart guy, had a good sense of how nitroglycerin acted on the human body, but we've discovered more suitable uses for the explosive oil in medicine.

[Kookaburra]

65. Thanks derby

I didn't know that. Always thought they were close in nature.

[moriah]

69. The theory, yes. The practice? Not as much.

Yeah, the theory is fairly close -- the idea that a person can desensitize themselves and reduce certain symptoms by using small doses of something that causes similar symptoms in high dosages. A tiny bit of ragweed pollen, given over time, will make the body stop reacting to ragweed.

Allergy shots generally start out at a 1:5000 dilution and work their way up. One homeopathic preparation for "hay fever" uses ragweed pollen at a 1:1000 dilution -- five times more than an allergy shot would have. Yeah, that could work. Most of the people who actually tried to make homeopathy somewhat of a science didn't dilute things heavily.

But then the "magical thinking" came in. People started selling extremely diluted products and saying they were better than the others -- that if only a little is necessary, less should be even better! Logic went out the window. Since all the boxes on the practically placebo products say that it's not approved to treat or cure a medical condition, they could sell whatever they wanted without being worried about getting sued if it didn't work -- and since they were practically placebos, it was highly unlikely they'd get sued from someone having a bad reaction to their product.

I think any person who is going to try to use homeopathy, herbalism, or other "alternative medicines" needs to read a hell of a lot before they start spending their money on snake oil -- and possibly endanger their health in the process from not getting real effective treatment. Most pre-made tinctures have very little active ingredient. Many herbs are improperly stored and prepared, so they lose effectiveness. Find herbalists who actually make their own tinctures, know what the plants do, and can help you if you have bad reactions or don't see results right away. If nothing else, study the German Commission E Monographs to determine what would be the best treatment, instead of relying on pre-made "proprietary" herbal mixtures (which essentially means they don't want to tell you just what's in their stuff, because it might be nothing!) Try to avoid the quacks. They are out there.

[moriah]

67. Just remember not all preparations are so highly diluted....

http://www.asthmahelpline.com/allergy-shots.htm#d3

Allergy shots use a 1:5000 dilution at the beginning of treatment, and gradually move up.

http://www.hylands.com/products/hayfever.php

That preparation has a 1:1000 dilution of ragweed pollen. I could see it possibly being effective. I could also see, since it's five times stronger than allergy shots traditionally start out with, that a person could have an allergic reaction to it. I've never seen any clinical trials or safety tests done so I wouldn't feel comfortable recommending it.

There is a hell of a lot of quackery in homeopathy -- and I believe extremely heavy dilution is one place it manifests. I still don't think that even an actual dose of ipacec or nux vomica would actually work to treat nausea, however, as just one small example. Unless the person is getting nauseated because of ipacec in their food, I wouldn't see how slowly building a tolerance to it would help reduce nausea.

[HuckleB]

99. And they are treating allergies.

Do you understand the allergic process, and why this can help?

Do you understand that this process does not equate to the every body function?

[moriah]

138. Yes, that's why ...

.... I gave the example about nausea. It's not an allergic reaction, it's not even a reaction to a toxin. Why on earth would that particular treatment work?

It doesn't.

[HuckleB]

27. Nope.

[Oregone]

35. I think there is actually something in allergy shots other than water

:)

[HuckleB]

524. Read up:

http://scienceblogs.com/whitecoatunderground/2010/05/if_there_were_a_parallel.php

[NNN0LHI]

16. Most people who died in 1918-19 from influenza were treated with folk medicine

Thats why so many died. Look at each pandemic after that. As proven medical practices improved the number of deaths from each following pandemic went down.

Don

[azul]

21. Ah, but when there is a profit motive, medical practices have proven

to make more money in treatments rather than cures.

[Warpy]

32. Most of the people who died from bird flu in Mexico last year

were treated by the local curanderas instead of hotfooting it to the hospital as soon as they got into trouble.

Once the word got out that this flu was different, the death rate in Mexico dropped to what it is in the rest of the developed world.

[NNN0LHI]

38. I wasn't aware of that

Thank you for posting this information.

Don

[dems_rightnow]

17. Burn them!

Or not.

[HuckleB]

29. Let's just not pay them.

[Lorien]

54. Yep. Better to pay your employer instead. nt

[HuckleB]

100. Thank you for the usual, pointless red herring response.

:rofl:

[derby378]

19. As someone who has been researching the history of homeopathy in Amerca...

...I feel that homeopathy is indeed one of those crackpot "energy medicine" notions, but I am impressed at how the first American homeopaths established themselves in response to many of the excesses of established medicine at that time.

The American Institute of Homeopathy actually got established in 1844, two years before the American Medical Association launched, thus making the AIH the oldest national medical society in the United States. Now that took some doing and diligence.

You should really look into homeopathy's history in America. It seems like there has been a constant struggle for homeopathy to define itself in the states, where classical, old-school Hahnemannians who swore by Hahnemann and his works had to content with homeopaths who believed that homeopathy could evolve beyond Hahnemann in response to scientific research and discovery. In the end, the Hahnemannians won control of the camp.

[HuckleB]

31. The difference is that science left those crackpot notions behind.

Homeopaths stick with the same thing they pushed back then.

[panzerfaust]

30. BS: Witchcraft works

... or a least they think so in Saudi

[mr blur]

33. Whackjob alert!

[ismnotwasm]

36. Witchcraft?

Ugh. I like witches.


I even like certain homeopathic practices.

But people have to be careful. If you're convinced your "herbal" medicine from some area in, say, China or India is *the* answer, make sure it isn't grown in a area with a high heavy metal content in the soil. Not good for you at all, plants suck it up. Don't go complaining about immunizations if you don't know where your homeopathic shit is coming from and what it's grown in. Just sayin'

[Oregone]

40. Also

Don't confuse "herbal" medicine with homeopathy. When consuming herbs, you are actually taking in something that could potentially have an active in it. In homeopathy, you are drinking water.

[laughingliberal]

43. +1 nt

[ismnotwasm]

48. You're right of course

(Still, diluted or not people believe in all kinds of things)

I do like a cup of chamomile tea myself on occasion

edit, I should clarify, I was confusing homeopathy with naturopathy. God.

[Oregone]

50. chamomile tea is more potent if you dillute it with water 100 times

:)

[HuckleB]

326. +1

[moriah]

39. I worked for a health food store

There's one homeopathic product I had no problem selling to people. Hyland's "teething tablets".

Why?

Because 1) they were cheap 2) even if they don't work, they aren't going to kill the kid and 3) the parent can feel like they are doing something to help things, which might help them keep their sanity when they have a howling infant so they don't shake the kiddo. I also recommended getting bags of frozen whole green beans and letting the kiddos teethe on them -- they're sturdy enough when frozen solid to give quite a bit of relief for the toothache without a likely choking hazard. Or frozen asparagus.

The rest is absolutely pointless. Although there is one place in allopathic medicine where a similar premise to homeopathy is used and works -- allergy shots. In that case, yes, repeated dosage of a very tiny amount of a substance that is causing a person's hay fever will eventually cure their hay fever. But I don't know of any homeopathic remedies that can credibly claim to work in a similar fashion by desensitizing the immune system.

[Oregone]

42. Allergy shots have something other than magic memorizing water in them

[backscatter712]

46. Indeed.

Homeopathic "medicines" are diluted, rediluted, rediluted, again and again and again, 30 times, usually, until there's literally not a single molecule left of the substance left.

Nothing but water. Though homeopaths would counter that argument by saying that water has a "memory". See the image I posted above...

[moriah]

56. If both of you notice, I was speaking of *theory*, not practice.

You'll also notice that I said I didn't think there was a homeopathic product out there that could credibly claim to work under that theory.

I always snickered when I heard people say that the "remedies" actually worked better when they were diluted more. Makes no sense whatsoever. However, not all products are so diluted as you describe -- and among people who actually do believe in homeopathy, it's the more the ultrakooks (yes, I know it's hard to compare between kook and ultrakook, but yes, some of the kooks out there make the rest of them look sane) that subscribe to the "higher dilution makes it work better!" theory.

For example -- the traditional starting dose in allergy shots is 1 part allergens to 5000 parts water. (Yes, I sourced this -- http://www.asthmahelpline.com/allergy-shots.htm#d3 )

The Hyland's teething tablets I mentioned have a 3X dilution for each of the substances in it, meaning 1 part chemical to 1000 parts water. Hey! They're five times stronger than the initial allergy shots people get! Wow.

[backscatter712]

57. You're preaching to the choir! n/t

[moriah]

62. As I said in the other post... so do quite a few homeopathic preparations.

Allergy shots generally start out with a 1/5000 dilution. Hyland's teething tablets have a 1/1000 dilution for the substances in them. So yeah, those teething tablets actually have more of the alleged "cure" than the starting dose of allergy shots.

I was okay with selling the teething tablets since they were unlikely to do any harm, were cheap, and were "treating" a condition that was not life-threatening. We carried several others because people would come looking for certain ones without any prompting from us. But the only other product than the teething tablets my boss ever recommended were allergy preparations, because she thought that actually might work, but never pushed the others. Given that Hyland's "hay fever" treatment one uses ragweed pollen at a 1:1000 dilution, five times stronger than initial allergy shots, I could see where they might work. But I never felt comfortable even suggesting them because I've not seen clinical trials showing efficacy.

[HuckleB]

96. A frozen blueberry offers some actual nutrition, and actually diverts attention longer.

Hyland's should be sued for false advertising.

[moriah]

211. Eh, wouldn't a blueberry be a choking hazard?

Kinda hard for a kid to choke on a frozen spear of asparagus or whole green bean.

I would tend to agree with you about lawsuits if someone's selling a homeopathic product that costs as much or more as some alternative medicine treatments -- for example, arthritis treatments with glucosamine can sometimes cost upwards of $20 for a month's supply of pills (look at Osteo-BiFlex). A 250 count bottle of the teething tablets runs you about $6.00.

I would also be a lot more likely to think that other companies should be targeted before Hyland's. Look at the product Oscillococcinum -- nearly a dollar a dose, for a product that is just as likely to actually have one molecule of its active ingredient as the water from your tap (200C or 400X dilution). I've yet to find a Hyland's homeopathic product that uses such insane dilutions, and the most expensive homeopathic preparation from them in a single box is a 1000ct of a particular one for $12.00.

The only product of theirs that uses a C scale dilution at all is the children's "earache tablets" (30C, or 1 part active ingredient to 10 to the power of -60 parts inactive). Those are the only product they sell that is almost assuredly only sugar pills. But look at the way it's labeled and marketed -- specifically to be given if a kid's pediatrician recommends a period of "watchful waiting" for 48 hours before filling an antibiotic prescription. That's actually a fairly common practice because earaches are not always caused by infections, and many will resolve in 24-48 hours without any treatment at all. If spending a few bucks on some sugar pills during that time will make an anxious parent feel better about the "watchful waiting" period, so they don't decide to ignore the advice and give their kids unnecessary antibiotics because they want so badly to do something to make them feel better... I would say they're doing us all a public service by selling such a product. There's already enough antibiotic resistance in this world.

The next most-heavily diluted product is an arnica prep suggested for pain relief -- and pain is one of the conditions that is most easily ameliorated by placebo effect. All the rest actually do have some of the "active" ingredient in them (highest dilution 12X, most at a 3X dilution, and several products sold with a 1X dilution -- essentially the same strength as a regular medicinal herb tincture and might not even work based on "homeopathy" at all if they do work) so if there is *any* benefit beyond placebo effect, their products are a lot more likely to work than most. (Then again, while it might be a lot more likely for it to snow in Mexico in January than in July, I wouldn't buy any snowshoes if I lived there regardless of what the month was.)

[HuckleB]

224. No more of a choking threat than those pills.

Supposedly active ingredients that still have no proof of validity aren't any more valuable. Hyland's may not be the "worst," but they sell nothing that has been researched to prove its validity.

[wolfgangmo]

452. I agree with your basic premise,

But do you have to be so rude? (rhetorical question?)

Tell me, do you apply this level of scrutiny to all medical therapies and products?

[JNelson6563]

369. I would put a big fat carrot into the freezer

and let that get good and cold. Here ya go sweetie, gnaw on that a while. It worked and there was no choking.

The rest of your post was an informative, interesting read. :-)

Julie

[moriah]

371. And cheaper than teething rings!

Yep, I'm very fond of the frozen vegetable treatment for teething. If only I could convince a puppy to try it, instead of chewing on my shoes....

[Junkie Brewster]

55. Good for them! N/T

[kenny blankenship]

60. "Witchcraft" is imprecise and loaded language. I prefer the scientific term: "Bollocks"

[Ignis]

360. +1, agreed.

Anyone with the slightest iota of cultural/religious sensitivity from the past ~5 decades would agree.

But "kicking Pagans while they're down" appears as much of a hobby at DU as it does everywhere on the 'Net.

So it goes. :shrug:

[gvstn]

63. Homeopathy

really does amount to less than witchcraft. The idea in a nutshell is to treat the patient with a substance that causes the same symptoms they are already experiencing and hope the body reacts to the new cause and stops the original problem. So if you have diarrhea you get treated with a remedy that contains something that causes diarrhea and supposedly your body will stop the original diarrhea. (huh?) The "remedy" is so incredibly diluted that you are getting absolutely no medicinal value from it.

The standard dilution advocated by Hahnemann for most purposes; patient would need to consume 10 to 41st power pills (a billion times the mass of the Earth) to consume a single molecule of the original substance

There really is nothing left of the original substance. It is not the same as taking a natural remedy where you are actually ingesting some biological/chemical substance that your body could actually use to help heal itself. I've always been amazed that Blue Cross will actually pay for a few sessions of Homeopathy therapy.

Read about dilutions at Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy#Dilutions

Edit: Sorry to inadvertently malign witchcraft. I would much prefer having 5 or so sincere believers in Mother Earth's powers to heal me, sending good vibes my way than take a homeopathic remedy for what ails me.

[Odin2005]

64. No fucking DUH.

[JCMach1]

66. Homeoparthy and Ayuveda never worked for me....

though the massages are nice...

[etherealtruth]

72. The typical municipal water supply has more antibiotics, hormones and (insert substance)

... than any homeopathic preparation. This is not a good thing on either count.

[earth mom]

73. So why hasn't the medical INDUSTRY cured cancer yet, eh?

Doctors don't know everything and I'm sick of them thinking that they do.

This is nothing more than the medical INDUSTRY and pharma INDUSTRY trying to make sure that no one horns in on their BUSINESS.

They don't care if people are cured, it's all about the money they can milk from keeping people sick.

Well fuck them! They need to get busy curing cancer! :puke:

[immoderate]

77. This does not justify selling people a remedy that can't possibly work.

Can you name a doctor who claims to know everything? I will join you in berating him/her.

Paranoid much?

--imm

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

79. The medical INDUSTRY has cured a number of cancers.

Prostate cancer and testicular cancer are highly treatable if caught early. There's a vaccine for a leading cause of cervical cancer. The survivability rates for almost all kinds of cancer are far higher these days thanks to modern chemo and radiation therapy.

In short, the medical INDUSTRY and pharma INDUSTRY has done far more to cure cancer than any woo woo or conspiracy theorist ever has.

[depakid]

108. Case in point brought to us by OHSU

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imatinib

[comrade snarky]

83. Thank you! I was unaware cancer was such a simple, monolithic thing

And that no cures for any type of cancer had ever been found.

Also it's good to know all those researchers are just in it for the massive paycheck and aren't actually giving themselves carpal tunnel working their asses off in bio-tech labs searching for cures. Since no one is doing that, anywhere, ever. It's a bigger conspiracy than the faked moon landings or Jesus' kids!

All those cancer survivors cured by medical processes must be oddly solid ghosts I guess... Oh! Or maybe they drank water that had been in a pond with the piss of someone who drank a homeopathic cancer cure. Hey! Wait a minute! Shouldn't we all be free of cancer as soon as someone pours a vial of magic water into the ocean. You should totally do that!


Do you think before you post? After?

Ever?

[earth mom]

85. The way cancer is treated is "one size fits all" which is ridiculous considering the billions

that have been thrown at cancer research over the years.

My question is a valid one.

Why the hell haven't they cured cancer after decades of research? Answer: because they don't want to cure it because it's a HUGE moneymaker.

Sorry, but it sounds like you have zero critical thinking skills, not me.

At least I question the information/disinformation they are pushing on all of us.

You need to read Suzanne Somers book about cancer and start thinking for yourself instead of buying the bullshit the medical INDUSTRY feeds you.

[eShirl]

87. Suzanne Somers, the noted scientist?

Suzanne Somers' Daily Routine: Hormones, Vaginal Injections And 60 Pills (VIDEO)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/01/29/suzanne-somers-daily-rout_n_162342.html

Suzanne Somers showed "Oprah" viewers her intricate daily routine on Thursday's show, the topic of which was hormone replacement. For years Somers has loudly spoken and written about bioidentical hormones and how she has benefited from taking them.

Somers invited cameras into her home to show her daily routine, seen below. First she rubs hormone lotion on the inside of her upper arm, always estrogen and two weeks a month progesterone. She then injects estriol vaginally, which she did not let cameras see.

Then there are her pills, all 60 of them. 40 in the morning with a smoothie and the rest at night. She admits the pill quantity is extreme, saying, "I know I look like some kind of fanatic."

Thanks to her routine, and exercise, Somers claims to have beaten what she calls "the Seven Dwarfs of Menopause": Itchy, Bitchy, Sleepy, Sweaty, Bloated, Forgetful and All Dried Up."

[earth mom]

88. You have NOTHING so you trash the messenger, because you can't argue with the message.

:eyes:

Nice critical thinking skills you got there-NOT!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

89. Suzanne Somers is trash.

So is her message.

[eShirl]

91. What trashing?

Now THIS is trashing:

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/08/oh_goody_suzanne_somers_has_found_new_woo.php

[GoneOffShore]

142. I read the whole thread.

That was some serious trashing!

I especially liked the comment about Somers continuing to take estrogen despite having had an estrogen receptor positive tumor - "The sad thing is that she doesn't care if she dies five years from now with a body that's mostly malignant tumor, so long as her skin doesn't sag." Phoenix Woman

And from Thomas on that thread:

"I put hippy "scientists" in the same category as holocaust deniers and people who don't realize all government, when boiled down to it, comes from the barrel of a gun in some fashion.

Reality deniers should be a category we could label people and then build institutions for them so they don't pester intelligent people. Be sorta like a zoo with tie-dye and macrobiotic snacks."

[Name removed]

123. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zoeisright]

144. LOL! Exactly.

Where exactly did she get her medical degree? Some cancers do disappear on their own. Unfortunately, that seems to happen mostly to stupid and credulous people.

[trotsky]

92. How do you explain all the cancer survivors walking around today?

Lymphoma, prostate cancer, and melanoma are three that are HIGHLY curable today. We're talking upper 80s to mid 90s percentage cured. CURED.

You should really stop spreading false information.

[muriel_volestrangler]

93. No, it's not treated as 'one size fits all'

If you have ever read anything about cancers, you'll have seen that there are a variety of adjectives that are put in front of the word. Like 'breast', 'lung' etc. And there are widely varying treatments.

In fact, 'the way cancer is treated is "one size fits all"' is one of the most ridiculous contributions to a discussion of cancer I've ever seen. It's so far from the truth that it's laughable.

:rofl:

[HuckleB]

102. Pure hogwash.

[comrade snarky]

118. Wouldn't that be homeopathic hog?

According to homeopathic "theory" would that turn you into a pig or just increase your cholesterol like a pound of bacon?

I await the research from homeopathic scientists (they learned a tiny, infinitesimal piece about one thing, it's the same as knowing nothing really) most eagerly.

[Posteritatis]

145. Only if there's no hog whatsoever in it. (nt)

[comrade snarky]

150. Not detectable hog, no

The magical memory of hog.

Echos of oink you might say...

[comrade snarky]

112. One thing is clear

You know fuck all about cancer OR the medical industry.

Your whole premise that the medical industry is a lamprey latched onto people it could otherwise save is not only stupid, it's offensive. I'm offended for all the people who have devoted their lives to helping others and finding cures for diseases to have you spit in their faces with you Pellagra free lips and stomp off with your non Polio crippled legs. 200 years of hard work and learning you'd throw away for magic. Fucking snake oil. Peddle it to the kids cured of lymphoid leukemia. Try selling that shit to people cured of of thyroid cancer and cancer of the larynx. All curable in many cases thanks to the medical science, scientists and researchers you are so willing to scorn.

Question all you like but learn to think for shits sake. Medical science figured out long ago that the big grey thing filling most of your head isn't for cooling the blood.

Use it.

Susanne Somers is a fine source if you want to discuss sculpted thighs and a toned ass... Otherwise using her in an appeal to authority is just pitiful. You need to read something else. Something that doesn't kiss your ass and tell you how smart you are compared to all the "idiots" who don't recognize the massive conspiracy.

A conspiracy that involves about 5% of people on the freakin planet by the way. Shhh... 5% of the people in the world are keeping a huge secret. Don't tell.

[Name removed]

128. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[GoneOffShore]

141. Cancer is not treated on a "one size fits all" basis.

If you really believe that perhaps you should read up on true cancer research rather than reading the silly nonsense that Suzanne Somers peddles.

[Posteritatis]

84. Cancer isn't cured, therefore homeopathy is real? The logic is strong with this one. (nt)

[earth mom]

86. Where in the hell did I say that?

I just don't think the medical INDUSTRY has the right to dismiss homeopathy out of hand as they do.

Again, they do NOT know everything.

[Posteritatis]

111. Sure they do. Water's not a panacea. (nt)

[woo me with science]

221. Um, of course they can.

It's WATER.

[HuckleB]

101. +1

[SidDithers]

106. Yer funny...

when can we expect to see you railing about the multi-billion dollar nutraceutical industry?

:rofl:

Sid

[Odin2005]

122. Yeah, I'm sure the snake oil salesmen only have your well-being in mind.

:eyes:

My cousin would be dead from breast cancer were it not for modern medicine.

[Name removed]

484. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[REP]

131. My cancer was cured with technology. I've been cancer-free for 18 years now.

There are tests to detect the type of cancer I had easily at its early stages, when it can be treated with minimum damage to the body. I just had a routine follow-up, which is now even more advanced, and there's no trace of cancer or abnormal cells. I'd call that cured.

[Zoeisright]

143. Cancer is an incredibly complex disease.

With many causes. It's probably not possible to cure it.

THe difference between allopathic (traditional) medicine and alternative medicine is that allopathic treatments have actually been studied in placebo-controlled, double-blind, replicated trials, and only those treatments that have a statistically significant effect are considered effective. Alternative medicine is based on hearsay and testimonials, which mean absolutely nothing.

When alternative meds are tested according to the scientific standard, then we can talk. Until then, good luck with your herbs and needles.

[Maru Kitteh]

213. The people of the medical arts cure individuals of cancer EVERY FUCKING DAY. How many have YOU

cured? None.

Medical professionals dedicate their LIVES and their LIFE'S WORK to helping others because they have watched their own mothers and brothers and husbands and children suffer.


You speak ignorantly of cancer like it is one disease. Your post is babble and rubbish.

[LeftishBrit]

390. It has cured many cases of cancer - just not enough yet!

Why hasn't the homeopathic industry cured cancer yet, then?

I know a number of people who've been cured of cancer. A family friend now in his 60s, who had Hodgkins disease 35 years ago. Another friend, who was also treated for Hodgkins disease at the age of 19, and is now in her late 40s and the healthy mother of two healthy children. The 15-year-old boy, successfully treated for leukemia at the age of 4. The older friend, who was treated for melanoma in her early 50s, and eventually died of old age in her late 80s. Etc.

Yes, not ENOUGH people are cured of cancer. There needs to be much MORE progress in the area; but that's no reason for denying people the BASIC HUMAN RIGHT to modern medicine, which as far as I am concerned is one of the most PRECIOUS THINGS IN THE UNIVERSE, and one of the few things that I would fight and die for, as I would certainly have died long ago without it.

Of course they care about people being cured! Maybe it's through good will. Maybe it's about the money that they can milk through keeping people alive into old age, when they will likely use a lot more medications. Maybe it's both. Either way, I'll take it over living like 100 years ago, when one baby in six died before reaching their first birthday.

[saltpoint]

75. I'd be interested to hear these BMA members' take on the placebo

effect of antidepressant medications routinely prescribed.

It is a significant counterpoint to their claim that taxpayers should not foot the bill for alternative remedies or treatments across the span of conditions.

I smell a roomful of marketers with calculators.

[HuckleB]

167. It appears that you don't have much experience with actual research.

Keep buying the scam artists' propaganda.

[saltpoint]

209. I buy what I need to buy.

My comment (had you read it correctly) was almost a question.

The placebo effect in antidepressants is quite real.

[HuckleB]

228. Repeating yourself doesn't change the fact that you aren't understanding the research.

[saltpoint]

233. And your being pig-headed about a full range of consideration

doesn't excuse your imposed limits on that research.

There is, without question, ample research evidencing the placebo effect in antidepressants.

Studies are done routinely. They are valid, reliable, clinical acknowledged, and can be and have been replicated across many settings.

[HuckleB]

255. Nope.

Keep pretending and projecting.

The real world awaits your visit.

[saltpoint]

263. I've likely been living in it a lot longer than you have.

The research speaks clearly.

You aren't listening.

[HuckleB]

267. You can keep repeating yourself.

Again, you have clearly not understood any of it.

[saltpoint]

268. Your smear on witchcraft is a secondary bias you're carrying around,

also to no influential benefit.

You clearly don't know anything at all about Wicca.

If you did you might have shown more respect for it and its traditions -- which predate "modern medicine" by some centuries.

[HuckleB]

270. Oh my goodness.

That's hilarious!

I needed a good laugh!

Thanks.

[saltpoint]

310. Your "goodness" is in question throughout this thread. However,

so are antidepressants in my posts, such as they are.

http://www.ahrp.org/cms/content/view/658/94/

You know those studies are there. And you could have looked them up as easily as any of the rest of us.

Here's the cubist equation: Homeopathy cannot stand on verities of clinical trials for specific conditional efficacy except with a view toward the placebo effect, which is also well-documented. As well, antidepressant medications prescribed by allopathic primary care physicians and MD shrinks, show efficacy in treating symptomatology correspondent to the percentage of trials undertaken and funded by the pharmaceutical companies who make the drugs under study, AND they produce parallel significant placebo benefits.

That was my point when I posted in response and included the whiff of marketers with calculators.

I stand by the point.

[HuckleB]

316. I know what's there.

And I know that you don't understand any of it, which is why, after an entire evening, all you can offer is the rantings of others who don't know how to read a research paper.

[saltpoint]

320. You could read one or two yourself to familiarize yourself

with "what's out there," especially as you were the one who ducked the point on antidepressants to begin with.

If you can demonstrate that antidepressant medications do not generate significant placebo effect, particularly in clinical trials which are not funded by their pharmaceutical manufacturers, perhaps you could link us all to one or two of those sites.

I think you'll be a long time looking however, and the point on placebo effect stands.

[HuckleB]

322. Goodness.

You don't get it, do you?

I've read them repeatedly.

[saltpoint]

327. Apparently not for any significant detail, then.

The point is right in front of your nose. You could get it if you chose to.

If the placebo effect can be clinically demonstrated to provide measurable efficacy in allopathic medicine per MD presciption then it is not physiologically possible to claim that other remedies, also measurable, which also generate correspondent placebo effect, are ineffective.

Either the placebo benefit is a demonstrable efficacious modality or it is not. It forms a zone of response to treatment of given conditions. That it fluctuates in patients by age and severity of symptoms is not the issue at hand but whether it is measurable. No clinical trial can NOT be valid or verifiable through replication if results obtain across settings. Placebo IS valid and verifiable and also can be replicated across settings.

Since you claim to know this, your assertion is wrong. It's wrong because a multidisciplinary range of modalities -- including one or more which definitely involve benefit of symptoms by placebo -- means your assertion is arbitrary and therefore clinical unsound.

[HuckleB]

328. Keep repeating yourself, and putting words in the mouths of others.

You are believing the words of others, but you haven't read them, and you don't understand science enough to do so.

Why can't you admit that?

[saltpoint]

329. You have an agenda with this thread. And no manners.

Your assertion is unsound for reasons cited above.

I'm sorry that you are more angry than persuasive. In science, persuasion is usually the best path to walk.

[HuckleB]

333. I do.

I don't need to be persuasive. The evidence is there for those who care about evidence.

[saltpoint]

337. Yet it's evidence contradicted by established clinical trials.

The difference being, your agenda imposes arbitrary conclusions against homeopathy despite placebo efficacy across all clinical settings, including "standard" medicine.

You rely on evidence which contraindicates your bias.

Advantage: evidence

[HuckleB]

338. So you say, but can't show.

Keep pushing BS. It's all you got, even though your BS is nothing but a red herring to begin with...

[saltpoint]

342. Sorry. That would be mistaken. Inside 10 minutes you could find

a thousand references to the placebo effect banking off my claim that it is not only clinically measurable but demonstrably beneficial, and courses through multiple modalities of medical units and behavioral health facilities.

Prescribed psychotropic medication is far less demonstrated to be effective in patients with depression but significantly higher percentages of depressive patients demonstrate benefit in medication trials including those who receive placebo medication rather than a pharmacologic agent.

If placebo in those clinical, pharmacologic trials generates demonstrable benefit in treating depressive patients' symptomatology, then the same placebo response in other modalities is also beneficial.

Your argument only obtains if pharmacologic agents -- particularly psychotropic medications -- were overwhelmingly efficacious. Which they most certainly are not.

[HuckleB]

346. Ah, yes.

Google! That proves everything. (Of course, you could only offer a ludicrous link, at best.)

Only in fantasy land.

Really, you should try to climb out of that hole now.

[saltpoint]

348. Again, HuckleB. Point us, since you are so certain of yourself, to links

which present clinical trials in which psychotropic prescriptive agents either do NOT produce significant placebo effect but are efficacious in corresponding numbers of patients in those trials OR to studies which suggest that the percentage of efficacy through placebo is greater in allopathic medicine than in all other modalities.

I'll happily read that study if you can find one.

[HuckleB]

349. If you want to start a thread on that topic, I'll be glad to do so. (Or meet you at OHSU Library.)

So far, you've made a claim that you can't back up. Instead, you want me to prove you wrong.

I don't play that game.

PS: http://www.srmhp.org/0201/media-watch.html

and...

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=67

[saltpoint]

351. You certainly don't have to take my word for it. Findings published in the JAMA

in January indicate that

- - - - -
SSRI antidepressants are no better than placebo for most cases of depression. The authors reviewed 30 years of data and concluded that “the benefit of antidepressant medication compared with placebo may be minimal or nonexistent in patients with mild or moderate symptoms”.
- - - - -

The studies span 30 years' data and were exhaustively conducted.

Findings of that breadth across that much time and multiple settings confer their own authority.

Heaven forbid you would listen to anyone else on DISCUSSION BOARD who might offer a different perspective. So by all means, go straight to the trials themselves.

Enjoy.

[HuckleB]

352. I see you ignored the links I posted.

Typical.

You have no desire for an actual discussion. You are pushing propaganda.

It's clear that you don't even know that the only SSRI included in that article was Paxil.

http://www.scientificblogging.com/truth_universally_acknowledged/depression_placebos_and_paxil

[saltpoint]

353. The editors of the JAMA are not known for their bent for propaganda.

Thirty years of data would appear to put your initial assertion under considerable strain.

[HuckleB]

354. You really don't get how science works do you? (Most studies are refuted.)

Nor do you understand that the only SSRI in that "study" is Paxil.

Keep showing your ignorance!

Thanks.

PS: http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=3722

and...

http://www.policymed.com/2010/01/jama-mild-depression-meta-analysis-unraveled-in-the-new-york-times.html

[saltpoint]

355. Science is refuted by science. Which suggests that the remedy for

something that is not correct, or not correct universally, is adjustable by the same process which created the incorrect standard.

That is another problem with your assertion. It isn't the only one, but it is an important one. Paxil is prescribed by member doctors for specific symptoms. The Placebo Effect was known long before the invention of any psychotropic compound. Including Paroxetine. That would obviate your point about data over 30 years' trials being dismissable.

But wait. If clinical studies are refutable, that would snap your initial point, would it not? The same refutable science which practices exclusion to alternative remedies becomes itself refutable by its own nature and intent.

That's kind of a problem when you're throwing words around like the ones you're throwing.

[HuckleB]

356. That's some spin.

You're the one who's been throwing words around. I'm careful with mine.

Sorry to have to show the reality of your fantasy.

[saltpoint]

357. I like the phrase "the reality of your fantasy." A lot.

[HuckleB]

358. Cool.

[HuckleB]

Dupe.

[HuckleB]

339. Dupe.

[Ignis]

482. Thank you for pointing this out, Saltpoint.

It's sad to see DUers jumping on the anti-Pagan bandwagon, but I shouldn't be surprised in this instance.

Still, a big :hug: and a hearty :thumbsup: for acting like a progressive in the face of a bitter, rude tantrum.

[HuckleB]

488. Too bad it's not true.

[Ignis]

492. Ah, the Great Arbiter of Truth hath spoken!

The problem with fundamentalist materialists is that they think their idea of "Science" can determine the veracity or falsehood of statements like the following:

"I like the color blue."
"Chocolate tastes better than vanilla."
"I love Bill more than I love Tom."
"Wow, that guy is acting like a real asshole."

Such a small, narrow view of the world! Get outdoors sometime, use your senses, read some philosophy, interact with other human beings, and you'll find that your version of "Truth" doesn't match the breadth of the human experience.

I'm quite sure this will fall on deaf ears, but you can't fault me for trying. :hi:

[HuckleB]

493. Thanks for the red herrings and the labels.

Now, perhaps you should take a look at the rest of the discussion, so you can see the actual evidence.

Or would that be too much to ask of someone with such an "open mind?"

PS -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI

[Ignis]

494. Evidence of WHAT, O Master of the Seagull Post? (nt)

[HuckleB]

496. And the answer is: No, you won't look.

And somehow you label me as being narrow-minded.

Here's something else for you to ignore: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OMLSs8t1ng

[Ignis]

498. I'm happy to look at any in-thread posts you want to cite...

...as evidence of--well, whatever the hell you're trying to prove in this subthread.

The problem is, you actually have to cite them. :wow: You can't just wave your hands.

Oh noez! Hard work! :(

Too bad. It's not my job to help you write coherently and support your claims. Find a tutor.

[HuckleB]

499. I'm not playing such a juvenile game.

You chose to join a thread half-way through, and now you are attempting to ignore the rest if that thread.

Now, you do the work that you should have done in the first place.

It is your job to show some sign of intellectual honesty -- or are you just going to hang your hat on saltpoint's little red herring about witches?

[Ignis]

501. Don't want a spank? Then don't make up lies about me.

You appear to be under some misapprehension that I'm a "believer" in homeopathy.

Guess what? I'm not. :hi: Prove it or STFU.

You also appear to mistakenly believe that I'm a "believer" in Theism.

Guess what? I'm not. :hi: Prove it or STFU.

But you and several others are either woefully ignorant or acting like complete assholes (or both) to DUers who self-identify as practitioners of Witchcraft. I'm not in that group--and in fact I'm not a member of any religion--but that doesn't mean I can't applaud a fellow DUer for standing up to your gross incivility.

[HuckleB]

502. Now you're putting in my words in my mouth?

Wow! If it's not one line of BS, it's another. And you worry about supposed incivility?

Excuse me: :rofl:

[Ignis]

505. Oh, that's rich. WHICH words have I put in your mouth?

You should really read what you've written upstream before categorically denying it.

Post # 344: "Says the believer! Now that's irony!"
-- http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8346382&mesg_id=8357425

I've asked you for support for this claim numerous times, but you're more interested in playing footsies than backing up your assertions.

Hey, that's fine; troll away if it gives you a thrill! :hi: Just don't expect people to avoid calling you on your bullshit.

[HuckleB]

506. That's hilarious.

In that posting history, you tried to put me down by calling me a "Scientismist." And now you want to claim that you are offended for people who believe in witchcraft. :crazy:

Now, oh, believer:

See your own post: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8346382&mesg_id=8369500

Whoops!

(And, of course, that only addresses your behavior toward me on one front, and it hardly addresses the majority of the assumptions you've made in your attempt to paint me as you'd like me to be. Nevermind that you continue to hang your hat here on a red herring post by saltpoint that had nothing to do with that discussion. It was only an attempt to divert things elsewhere.)

Oh, and now you're calling me a troll, when you've spent most of your time on this thread making personal attacks upon me.

:rofl:

[Ignis]

509. I have no idea what you're trying to prove here. Really.

Are you now trying to claim that I'm a believer in homeopathy because I was a Boy Scout and was taught how to employ basic, natural first-aid remedies from plants?

You're all over the place here. :freak:

I'm sorry that my asking you to prove your assertions is HARD WORK :nopity:, but that doesn't mean that your scattered, seagull, shotgun approach to posting has answered any of my questions. If you make a claim, such as "Ignis is XYZ," it's up to you to provide support for that claim.

So I'll ask again, what are you accusing me of being a "believer" in? :shrug: Herbs? Aspirin? Willow bark? Willow trees? Salix Alba? The concept of "trees" in general? The fact that trees really do exist and are not a figment of my imagination?

WHAT? :shrug:

FFS, trying to get a straight answer out of you is like trying to nail jello to a wall.

[HuckleB]

511. I like how you ignored almost my entire post in your response.

...And then pretend to play the ignorance card. I've proven all that's need to be proven, and I've given very straight answers. Your denial changes nothing. it only serves to show that you've been caught playing bad cards, but you aren't adult enough to admit it.

Bye.

[Ignis]

512. Asking for clarification is not "ignoring" your post.

WHAT THE FUCK are you accusing me of being a "believer" in?

I can't ask the question any more simply. :shrug:

[HuckleB]

519. I made that quite clear.

You, on the other hand, have been doing nothing but calling me names and putting words in my mouth.

[Ignis]

538. OK, fine, tell me WHERE you made it clear, I'll go look.

Your stubborn refusal to even tell me what the charges are against me is puerile.

[Ignis]

515. ...Unless, of course, you don't understand what "=/=" means!

That's "is not equal to" in ASCII. Some kids these days don't know from ASCII shorthand, I tell you.

[HuckleB]

518. Oh, my goodness.

You really can't follow anything. That must be why you pretend I say things I haven't said, so can rant about your own creation.

LOL!

[Ignis]

539. What did I pretend you said that you didn't? Specificity, please.

I understand that it must be uncomfortable to be exposed as a liar, but it's not my fault you've been caught making false claims about me.

:shrug:

[HuckleB]

562. What have I lied about?

Name one thing, and then prove it.

I've repeatedly shown where you put words in my mouth, directly and at the moment.

Why is it so hard for you to show the slightest bit of honesty?

[saltpoint]

516. Hi, Ignis. I would hope that some of the anti-Wiccan or anti-pagan

folks might at least give the subject an honest consideration.

Margot Adler's DRAWING DOWN THE MOON is an excellent first read for anyone with that spark of curiosity. It's approachable text and extremely interesting. If they are still interested, they can go on and read more authors, but I hope they would at least give it a fair try.

People who had psychic truck with an entire pantheon of goddesses and gods can speak to us across many centuries about how pale and thin and unmotivated our imaginal lives are.

In Peter Shaffer's magnificent play EQUUS, an adolescent psychiatrist says:

- - --

I wish there was one person in my life I could show. One instinctive, absolutely unbrisk person I could take to Greece, and stand in front of certain shrines and sacred streams and say 'Look! Life is only comprehensible through a thousand local gods. And not just the old dead ones with names like Zeus -- no, but living Geniiuses of Place and Person! And not just Greece but modern England! Spirits of certain trees, certain curves of brick wall, certain chip shops, if you like, and slate roofs -- just as of certain frowns in people and slouches... I'd say to them -- 'Worship as many as you can see -- and more will appear!'

- - -

[Ignis]

546. It's certainly not easy being Pagan on DU.

I expect this sort of ignorant bigotry from Reich Wingers, but it's always painful to see the Left practice the same behavior. :(

It's especially disconcerting to see Pagans/Wiccans suffer abuse in the sort of broad-brush attacks that DUers wouldn't dare allow against any other religious group. Honestly, one has to remain willfully ignorant to not have a basic familiarity with the reclaiming of the word "Witchcraft" by Wiccans over the past few decades.

Why are people so quick to assume that someone who believes in dancing naked under the moon is any less able to comprehend scientific data than someone who believes that bread turns into the body of a long-dead Jewish Rabbi?
:shrug:
I have many Pagan friends. I have many friends who do serious scientific work at local biotech firms. You do the Venn diagram. ;)

I'm a bit too much of a non-theist and non-believer to call myself Pagan, but I'll cop to enjoying the beauty of the Universe:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_pantheism

Thanks for the chat, Saltpoint. :hi: And thanks for the Dysart quote; it's one of my favorites, too.

[JNelson6563]

368. Obnoxious, right off the bat.

I think you could have made your points more effectively throughout this thread if you didn't jump right in to insulting people. Saltpoint made a casual observation here and you jump right in with assumptions he knows nothing of research and he's a sucker buying into propaganda. I read and re-read his post and I myself could not see where you reach your conclusions based on his very short, very casual comment.

Julie

[HuckleB]

374. ROTFLMAO!

His nonsense was vehement and ludicrous, and based in either ignorance or deceit. Read saltpoint's posts. There is nothing casual about what he's pushing.

Being nice does not help in these matters at DU. It's been tried repeatedly. There is no point.

[JNelson6563]

395. I guess I missed that part

where you've tried being nice, or at least not aggressively confrontational.

Julie

[HuckleB]

412. And now you put words in my mouth.

How is it that you are lecturing others again?

:rofl:

[JNelson6563]

461. What words would those be?

Being nice does not help in these matters at DU. It's been tried repeatedly.

Did you mean you watched others try? I seem to have made the mistaken assumption you were referring to yourself.

Julie

[HuckleB]

462. Now read what you wrote.

My statement is a general statement. It is not about this thread.

It's hilarious that you pull this red herring, and then play this game.

:rofl:

[JNelson6563]

474. Uh, ok.

Seek help friend. This stuff matters a bit too much to you.

Julie

[HuckleB]

491. That's funny.

I'm sorry that I had to ask you to be honest.

Looks like a demand for honesty hurt your feelings.

[Dorian Gray]

476. You have?

I haven't seen any evidence based proof of that!

[Ignis]

487. Pshaw! Only the OTHER side has to provide evidence!

;)

[L0oniX]

76. I'm going to have a BM from my A.

Trust no one!

[sakabatou]

78. Well yeah

Even my mom had an experience with something like it: chiropractics. Sure they did massage for her arm, but the chiropractic part was BS.

[RandomThoughts]

80. Chiropracters? There is an interesting comment.

Not sure I agree with the comment, have to think on it a certain way. For me angels are angels. But some people might see really good stuff as bad, and that would explain the comment.

So if a person sees something as bad, it might be that a person is not seeing the good angels in things, and by seeing it in a different way, peace of mind comes pretty easy, and you can see the good angels.


I remember this movie, I thought a long time on it.

Jacob's Ladder
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yt3Ny_BG3yQ

[sakabatou]

82. Yeah, chiropractics

http://www.youtube.com/user/C0nc0rdance#p/u/9/b_bNeSnYTmA

http://www.youtube.com/user/C0nc0rdance#p/u/10/2NBxShj_MEg

[Odin2005]

129. What do they call a failed Physical Therapist? A Chiropractor.

[HuckleB]

340. +1,000,000,000,000

[eShirl]

81. Witchcraft doesn't pretend to be science

so I'd say the comparison is unfair to witchcraft

[KonaKane]

94. Don't try to talk reason with haters. It's useless.

After watching the never ending barrage of vitriol against people of faith on this forum, believe me, it's hardly worth the effort.

[GoneOffShore]

152. Don't try to talk reason with haters. It's useless.

After watching the never ending barrage of vitriol against atheists on this forum, believe me, it's hardly worth the effort.

[KonaKane]

153. Cite some please.

I'd love to see evidence of such a barrage of hate, because so far I have only seen it targeted on people of faith.

So feel free, whenever.

[GoneOffShore]

156. You get to paint with a broad brush - so do I.

Any time rationality is used against the agents of the Big Woo, the Defenders of the League of Imaginary Friends appears.

The folks on your bumper sticker could have done just as much good without an imaginary friend.

[KonaKane]

157. So you have imagined them. I thought so.

I believe your imaginary facts are more curious than anyone's supposed imaginary friend.

[GoneOffShore]

158. You get to believe what you believe

Fine - Have fun.

Atheists get attacked - And then the attackers play the "I'm being oppressed because I'm a believer" card. Much like our larger society.

I'm too tired to play with you and too pissed off.

Go peddle your woo elsewhere.

plonk

[KonaKane]

162. As do we all. Difference is, I don't insult you for yours.

And we know damn well the inverse is not true here, as the content of your posts ("imaginary friend" "peddle your woo" etc) attests.

[HuckleB]

170. Yes, everyone can have their own opinions.

But they are not entitled to their own facts. That's where this all begins.

[KonaKane]

285. When you produce facts, we'll discuss them.

[HuckleB]

336. So you ignore the facts, and pretend they don't exist, and then ask for more.

That's quite funny.

Seriously.

:rofl:

[closeupready]

261. +1 to that. This is more like an exercise in brainwashing than an exchange of ideas, which

is what a discussion is amongst grown men and women. But there we have it, don't we - 'between grown men and women'. ;)

[KonaKane]

291. This is one subject that is just impossible on DU.

It takes normally decent, smart adults and turns them into rabid little tantrum throwing children.

[closeupready]

305. Oh, I know - and the childishness starts with the very first post. So,

I decided a while back just to sit back and observe these kiddies have their food fight in threads discussing any kind of non-Western, non-traditional health care. Have a good night. :)

[HuckleB]

321. You're not sitting back much.

And you're offering nothing but childish fantasies.

Hmmm.

Maybe you should take a look in the mirror.

Are you willing to challenge yourself?

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/05/knowledge_versus_certainty_in_skepticism.php

[HuckleB]

97. You are probably right on that.

[alarimer]

90. No, it's useless bullshit.

Well I guess witchcraft is bullshit too, so maybe that does make it the same thing.

[conspirator]

98. FUCK the doctors and the pharma$$$ industry n/t

[HuckleB]

103. Does that mean you'll give your money the homeopathic scam artists instead?

:rofl:

[jeffrey_X]

238. Which ones?

List the ones that are scam artists please.

[HuckleB]

258. Find me one homoepath that is not a scam artist.

I list them all!

[Donald Ian Rankin]

551. Every single homeopath, without exception, is either deluded or a scam artist

I don't know what the balance between those two is - I suspect that quite a number of them actually believe the bullshit they are selling. But all professional homeopaths make money by exploiting the gullibility of people like you to sell them expensive water when what they need is medicine, and that's arguably a scam even if done in "good faith".

[muriel_volestrangler]

109. Is that a promise from you to never use doctors, or medicines, again?

It seems a remarkably broad-brush attack.

[conspirator]

155. The best medicine is preventive medicine

I don't smoke, don't drink coffee, don't drink soft drinks, I only eat healthy, I don't work too hard, I exercise.
The only time I will need a doctor is if I have an accident, or if I am too old and it's time to die anyways.

[LeftishBrit]

449. So if anyone is ill it's their fault for not living 'healthily' enough?

Sounds like the Right talking about poverty.

Healthy lifestyle is important but anyone can get ill.

[conspirator]

465. Physical exercise is associated with higher metabolism and stronger body defenses

And that is scientifically proven.
Do you think fever would put Arnold Schwarzenegger in bed. Never.
In "less developed" societies people cure cold with 2 ways.
Either bathing in cold water or being covered in a blanket for 1 hour sweating like a pig.
Both of these 2 things increase your heart beat, make you breath faster and force your muscles to contract.
This is the exact equivalent of doing exercise. And of course after that they eat a good hot vegetable soup.
I am not talking about exotic diseases like Malaria or Bird flu, that you only get if you venture outside your climate.
And I am not talking about elderly people either, who of course have fragile immune systems.
The western typical diseases are all related to lifestyle. Cancer, obesity, premature baldness, you name it.

[Codeine]

115. Until you get seriously ill.

Then it'll be be "Save me! Save me!"

Troglodytes.

[NYC Liberal]

121. That's my favorite part.

Aside from the REALLY whacked-out nuts, most of those yelling "Screw Big Pharma! Screw doctors! Rah rah!" change their tune when they're hit by a car. Or need an emergency appendectomy. Or .. you get the point.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

132. Just like that scene from the Simpsons:

Moe: Science, what's science ever done for us. TV off. his voice signal]


Ned: Science is like a blabber mouth who ruins a movie by
telling you how it ends. Well I say that there are some thing
we don't wanna know. Important things!

Agnes: Enough talk, it's smashing time!


First stop: the Museum of natural history. The gang runs in and batter
a Tyrannosaurus skeleton to the floor. Then they smash down the
observatory. Meanwhile Moe is clubbing a mammoth. The tusk falls off,
landing on top of him.

Moe: Oh, I'm paralyzed, I just hope medical science can cure me!

[HuckleB]

256. +1

[Odin2005]

125. Fuck the quacks and snake oil salesmen!

[SidDithers]

107. It's my sincere hope that homeopaths natural select themselves out of existence....nt

Sid

[Codeine]

116. They lack the courage of their convictions

and run crying to real doctors when their Magical Memory Water doesn't cure their ignorant asses.

[kestrel91316]

113. Homeopathy isn't as effective as witchcraft. It's just snake oil and a scam.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

119. homeopathy is exactly as effective as witchcraft.

[Name removed]

165. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kestrel91316]

229. You're giving homeopathy too much credit, lol.

[Stevepol]

120. I don't think in medicine it is useful to speak in "all-or-nothing" terms.

I can understand how homeopathy could work and in fact I believe does work in certain cases, except it's dependent on a "reflexive response" that could be called a placebo effect.

Several years ago there was a story on TV, I don't remember what program or many of the details, but in essence this is what it was about. A young girl, I believe about junior high age, was diagnosed with some serious, life-long and incurable ailment. The treatment for the problem was some drug or other administered at regular intervals.

The doctor started the girl on the drug and the problem went into remission. He continued giving the drug at regular intervals, but then he decided to try something different: he started to slowly dilute her drug. He still gave the same drug but at increasingly refined or decreased amounts. In every case the drug continued to keep her in remission. Finally, he stopped using any of the drug at all and the girl continued in remission. At the time of the program she was OK. I don't know if she had a relapse at some point, but I think the point is clear.

A disease has an effect on the body or it's a circumstance in which the body reacts in a certain way to something inherent in the person or in the environment or whatnot. A person can be taught to acquire a disease or an allergy by being around others who also have the same allergy. It happens in much the same way that animals can be conditioned to have any reaction desired by using operant conditioning. A drug also has an effect on the body and the body has learned to react in a certain way and can find new ways to adjust to the drug. Small amts of dilutions of certain agents that might create the problem could work the way vaccines etc. work, by stimulating the body's own mechanisms to fight the disease or what have you. It seems quite reasonable to me.

At the same time, there are some conditions where only certain strong drugs are called for, and a person and a doctor should know the difference and prescribe accordingly.

But sickness is a very personal thing. What works for one person won't work for another. Each of our bodies and minds is unique.

It behooves each person to refrain, it seems to me, from statements that leave no room for the infinite variety of human experience. Quackery is not limited to any class of doctor or healing modality.

[Dappleganger]

127. They're all a bunch of snake oil salesmen...

BOTH sides are a real crap-shoot.

But hell, when your life is on the line you'll open up your mouth or stick your arm out and take anything which offers a little bit of hope, right? I sure have, and thankfully am still with my family (2-time breast cancer survivor).

[SemiCharmedQuark]

134. No...I'm pretty sure if you compare the survival rates of people given chemo and those given water

you'll find a difference. That's not really a crap shoot.

[Prometheus Bound]

135. "Hundreds" out of 141,000 members? That's not too impressive a percentage.

[muriel_volestrangler]

215. It's a conference

The whole membership doesn't turn up to a conference (thankfully - you'd have a problem running hospitals and general practices otherwise).

[SidDithers]

139. No homeopathy thread is complete without Homepathic A&E...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0

:rofl:

Sid

[comrade snarky]

146. Love those guys, funny with some sharp teeth

"We've got skulls on everything. Are we the baddies?"

[knitter4democracy]

147. Nope. It works.

Even if it's just a placebo effect, it works. Considering doctors cannot prescribe placebos (violates informed consent), this is a safe one.

[GoneOffShore]

151. Have a listen to the attached

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0W7Jbc_Vhw

"If you show me that, say, homeopathy works, then,
I will change my mind, I will spin on a fucking dime.
I’ll be as embarrassed as hell,
But I will run through the streets yelling,
It’s a Miracle!
Take physics and bin it.
Water has memory!
And whilst its memory of a long lost drop of onion juice seems infinite,
It somehow forgets all the poo it’s had in it."

And you might also consider this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI&playnext_from=TL&videos=k2iGBFo3Z3E

[knitter4democracy]

154. It's about the placebo effect.

The placebo effect is very strong (I've personally lived it--it got me through the delivery of my daughter), and these sugar pills are safe placebos for those who truly believe in them. Even better, after the effect wears off (which it does in any chronic condition after awhile), you convince the patient to take a different one, that this combination is better or whatever. Ta-da! New placebo effect!

Especially with pain and many chronic conditions, the medical options suck. You take a pill that barely works and has all sorts of contraindications or side effects, or you can use your mind to convince itself that it feels better by taking a pill with few side effects (if you read any study, the placebo always has side effects, which just goes to show the power of the human mind). If people really believe in homeopathy and it works for them, then it's a good thing.

[GoneOffShore]

159. I go with peer reviewed studies.

[knitter4democracy]

166. So do I.

If you read them, you see that the placebo group always has a long list of side effects. How do you explain that? If the human mind is that powerful, causing side effects in the body with just a sugar pill, then why shouldn't we harness this effect?

[HuckleB]

173. Hello?

Do you not understand that we have those "side effects" even when we're not in a study, or being treated for something?

Wow!

[knitter4democracy]

176. Read the studies again more carefully.

Many of those show up after starting the patient on the pill. The patient doesn't know that it's the sugar pill, and their mind creates all sorts of attendant side effects.

I used to read my ex-husband's NEJM for fun. You find out the darndest things that way, one of which is that the placebo's side effect list is often just as long as the medicine they're testing.

[HuckleB]

179. Please don't pretend that I haven't read them carefully.

I've read them repeatedly. Upon repeated readings, even the positive studies became more and more questionable.

Some recent examples: http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=5112

[knitter4democracy]

184. Odd.

I wasn't the one to start out snarky, and now you seem to be getting hot under the collar. I wasn't pretending, just wondering if you really read the studies and see the laundry lists of side effects for the placebos and skim over them, as so many doctors do. We know they're there, we know that they have to be in the study, and many believe as you do--they were there before the placebo treatment started. That's often not the case, though, if you read the study carefully and see when the side effects occurred. If you have been reading those, seeing that the side effects started after placebo treatment, and are still arguing that the placebo effect either is not real or is not powerful, then I am confused.

[HuckleB]

188. Nice try.

Your post makes it clear. And it was quite condescending.

It's clear that you don't understand the side effect issue. Don't dig your hole deeper.

[knitter4democracy]

191. I wasn't trying to be condescending. I am sorry.

Apparently, I'm more tired than I thought and can't see how you are reading my posts. I can see where my wondering if some stranger I know nothing about has actually read something I'm referring to could be seen as condescending--remember, you don't know me, and I don't know you. I could be a doctor, for all you know (I'm not--I was just married to one), and you could be a Ph.D. scientist in the realm of placebo research (though you don't seem to be from your posts).

You're right: what I know about side effects is from living with them and then looking up studies to see if what I'm dealing with showed up in the trials. Most of the time, it has, which then got me reading what side effects the placebos had.

[HuckleB]

161. In other words, it still doesn't work.

[knitter4democracy]

172. It works as a placebo. Nothing wrong with that. nt

[HuckleB]

177. It's a scam.

Yes, there is something very wrong with that.

You are pushing the new scam artist mantra of "the placebo" as actual treatment. They're desperation has led to this propaganda. Don't buy it.

[knitter4democracy]

185. Um, my ex was the one who told me this. He's an MD.

He cannot prescribe placebos, but he can recommend homeopathy or other treatments that he personally doesn't believe work in hopes that it might work for his patients in chronic pain who cannot take anything he can prescribe or for patients who have terrible reactions to medicine but are suffering. He tried to talk me into it once, but I read up on it and figured it was crap. That said, I know the placebo effect is strong, having used it to push my daughter out, so there's probably something to it.

[HuckleB]

190. I love these unverifiable claims, as if they mean a thing.

Spend some time here, and learn about the placebo effect: http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?s=placebo+effect

[knitter4democracy]

192. I was responding to your claim that I'm being duped by homeopathic supporters.

I'm not actually one, which is why I posted that.

[HuckleB]

201. And that has what to do with that last post?

[knitter4democracy]

187. Sorry. Dupe.

That was odd.

[slackmaster]

226. My problem with that is that it doesn't work for the reasons its proponents claim

Homeopathic treatments consistently fail in properly controlled double-blind tests.

I have no problem with placebo effects, but the pseudoscientific claims about the mechanisms by which homeopathic treatments supposedly work are morally no better than young-Earth creationism.

[knitter4democracy]

257. This I agree with.

The problem with placebo, though, is that you have to believe in it for it to work. If you can convince yourself that this sugar pill is better than that other sugar pill and actually works, then you might actually get better. The problem starts, though, when you just can't convince yourself of that. Homeopathy doesn't work on me at all (when I had severe chronic pain, I tried--waste of money), but then, I don't believe in it.

[HuckleB]

343. The problem beyond that is that proponents are now misinterpreting placebo to push their scam.

[jxnmsdemguy65]

194. Homeopathy is pure BS...

I am a big fan of alternative medicine, but I have never had any benefit from homeopathy... it's pure BS in my book. Ozone, on the other hand, can work wonders on a variety of maladies...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozone_therapy

[HuckleB]

203. Ummmmm.

In Depth: Most Dangerous Health Scams
http://www.forbes.com/2009/01/03/dangerous-health-scams-forbeslife-cx_jd_0105health_slide_10.html

Dr. Buttar has a new protocol
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2006/12/dr_buttar_has_a_new_protocol.php

[MadHound]

204. Western medicine trying to establish that it is the only, one true medical pratice

Don't get me wrong, there is much that is valuable in Western medicine. There is also much harm that is done by wrong drugs, wrong diagnoses, and wrong treatments. Let me remind that this is a medical practice that not that long ago was into bleeding people to cure various diseases and using a mercury compound to cure STD's. This is a medical tradition, now grounded in the pursuit of profit, that puts faulty drugs out there and urges suckers to buy them. I especially like that anti-depressant drugs that can lead to suicide.

There is also much that is good about other medical traditions. Herbal remedies, acupuncture, these and others have proven their value time and again. Are there quacks and charlatans out there riding this circuit, certainly. One of my favorite was a former coworker who swore by colloidal silver, and drank so much of it in order to keep healthy that he was turning a nice shade of blue by the time I moved on.

What I think that is needed is to bring all medical treatment together, study it all, finds what works and move one from there. The trouble is Western medicine has a vested, monetary interest in remaining on top, so they dismiss anything that isn't taught in med school.

Let's not dismiss any medical tradition. I think that any form of healing that has been handed down, with positive results, for hundreds of years merits study, not casual dismissal.

[HuckleB]

205. Prove that the claims they make are valid.

The dangers of science denialism are real: http://www.ted.com/talks/michael_specter_the_danger_of_science_denial.html

[MadHound]

206. Well, as far as herbalism goes, the fact that most of our drugs are derived from herbs

Says a lot about their validity.

Meanwhile there have been studies done, and reported on, that show that certain remedies do work.

<http://www.eastmountaincenter.com/docs/09h_ama.htm>

It is the height of arrogance to say that a medical system that has been used for hundreds of years is completely and totally wrong.

Are there some bad players out there, simply trying to make a buck, sure. But then again we have the same sort of hucksters plying Western Medicine. Can you say "restless leg syndrome?" I thought you could. Oh, and while you're at it, go research just how stupid it is to be using Viagra.

As I said earlier, there is good to be found in all established medical traditions, and we need to integrate them all into the healing process. This takes study, and the use of an open and scientific mind.

Why are you willing to close other medical traditions out of the loop, relying on Western medicine only?

[HuckleB]

207. Hardly.

Origination does not mean the herbs sold under today's supplement legislation have much value.

Here's a good read on challenging your own viewpoint: http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/05/knowledge_versus_certainty_in_skepticism.php

[muriel_volestrangler]

214. "most of our drugs are derived from herbs" because they did what you suggested

They made an effort to "bring all medical treatment together, study it all, finds what works and move on from there". "Western medicine" is characterised by a massive process of finding out what works. And so they've looked at herbal drugs, found out how well they work, found out what the chemicals in them are that actually do the job, got rid of the other chemicals in the herbs that have nasty side effects, and come up with something that does the job very well.

Homeopathy is something that has been found to work purely through the placebo effect (which isn't that surprising, since its claims make no sense under the basic sciences of physics and chemistry either). These doctors are saying it's time to move on from it. Just as they have done from 'witchcraft', which worked through the power of suggestion as well.

[HuckleB]

223. +1

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

232. If other methods were valid, they'd be a part of western medicine.

[earth mom]

404. MadHound-Very wise and well said post.

Your thoughts are exactly how I feel about the subject except that I posted a knee jerk reaction upthread because the OP was just so damn annoying, lol!

Thanks for your more sane and thoughtful post! :thumbsup:

[HuckleB]

415. So you like scam artists?

[Blue-Jay]

230. I dunno about calling it "witchcraft" because that's bullshit, too.

I'd call it "charlatanism".

[Orsino]

231. There are many, many cheaper placebos to be had.

If science won't be our guide, perhaps penury could teach us something.

[jeffrey_X]

234. THERE'S NO MONEY FOR BIG PHARA IN HOMEOPATHY

Big pharma and corporations lose if everyone is healthy, use natural alternatives to get healthy and use these also to prevent from getting sick.

[GoneOffShore]

236. But there's even bigger money to be made by woo peddlers.

Deepak, Weil, the "Health Ranger".

The woo peddlers can always find a way to separate the gullible from their money. And then the gullible die. And the woo peddlers find more suckers.

And the "Big Phara"? At Alexandria?

I thought that was destroyed in 1323.

[jeffrey_X]

237. Really? There is bigger money than big pharma?

Explain it to me please.

[GoneOffShore]

239. Stop drinking the conspiracy KoolAid. It'll make you stupid.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

240. There's a better cost/benefit pay off.

Big Pharma makes a lot of money. It makes people better.

Big Woo Woo makes a lot of money. It's a scam.

[jeffrey_X]

243. Fine...you keep taking your meds from big pharma...

the meds that only cure the symptoms. I'll focus on prevention and taking natural substances to treat the cause. Do you take advil and tylenol because your body is deficient in them?

I'm surprised so many progressives and liberals have been duped by our medial system and big pharma.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

246. Fine, never take any real medicine.

Have fun with your laetrile and your collodial silver.

"Do you take advil and tylenol because your body is deficient in them? "

No, I take advil and tylenol when I'm in pain. Because they are pain killers. I don't take them because my chakra is misaligned or because my saguine humour is imbalanced.

It's a shame so many liberals and progressives squandered the K-12 free education that they were afforded.

[jeffrey_X]

248. LOL....you see, there's where you are wrong

if I have an acute injury (broken arm, vasectomy....whatever) I'm going to utilize western medicine.

When is the last time you looked at over-the-counter aisle of your pharmacy. While some it is useful, most of it is a sham! When you go to your regular MD, when you are sick, what usually happens. Unless there is some type of acute and immediate cure, they do nothing but prescribe medicine. That's all!

and no, I don't take laetrile or collodial silver. In fact, I don't take anything. I eat right, use my neti pot for colds and sinus infections and take care of myself when I start to feel sick.

Keep living in the Matrix.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

249. Of course you're going to use western medicine.

All the woo woos end up taking western medicine once they really need it.

[GoneOffShore]

247. Why do I always have to quote Moynihan?

"You're entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts."

Explain to me what's wrong with curing symptoms. You have a headache, you take aspirin, headache goes away.

Sure, prevention is great. But tell me how you "prevent" a genetically based disease? Tell me how you use natural substances to treat HIV or tuberculosis?

[closeupready]

262. Do not be fooled. This thread has 250 comments but only 13 recs. What does that tell you?

Tells me that you and I have lots of company here.

[HuckleB]

266. In other words, you're fine ignoring the real world, as long as you have lots of company.

:rofl:

WOW!

:wow:

[SemiCharmedQuark]

273. And half the U.S. population doesn't believe in Evolution.

That doesn't mean they are right.

[GoneOffShore]

245. You got it!

The woo is strong among many who embrace progressive politics. Somehow many of us equate being progressive with being anti science.

I'll admit that I embraced the woo when younger, but realized later that science, evidenced based medicine and no imaginary friends lead to a more progressive stance on social issues.

[Codeine]

241. But lots of money for Big Dumbshit,

Big Gullible, And Big Whackadoodle Fruitcake. Peddling sugar water that's been diluted a bazillion times is the biggest scam around.

[backscatter712]

235. Something related: Billy Joel's daughter tried to overdose on homeopathic pills.

Three guesses as to whether she succeeded or not, and the first two don't count...

:rofl:

http://www.nydailynews.com/gossip/2009/12/07/2009-12-07_nearly_impossible_to_od_on_drug_she_took.html#ixzz0cqQnzjCf

[LanternWaste]

250. Damitol

And should you have tried homeopathy and found it didn't live up to the promise... buy Damitol from Big Pharma. It's only $450.00 a pill and cures stuff you didn't even know you had until we brought it to your attention.

Sure there's a few side effects, but no one's looking out for you more than Big Pharam-- discrediting "witch doctors" who instruct the use aloe for a sunburn (woo-wood indeed), and spending money on marketing so that you'll feel like your in a Hallmark commercial after you take our blue pill for the boner your doctor wants you to have.

(Effects of Damitol incluse, but are not limited to) diarrhea, vomiting, nose bleeds, pink eye, anal fissures, brain seepage, eye leakage, nasal drainage, toejam, fungul bronchi-dilation, nano-bot infestations, headaches, joint pain, killing while sleep walking, and eventually, voting Republican)

[GoneOffShore]

251. Just crying out for a Wolfgang Pauli quote.

[HuckleB]

253. You mean redherringify!

Enjoy it! It's hilarious, until people die, that is.

[LanternWaste]

366. Sorry-- didn't mean to prick a sacred cow.

Sorry-- didn't mean to prick a sacred cow. I'll use a spork next time.

[HuckleB]

373. That's hilarious.

It's your sacred cow that's been pricked. Whoops!

:rofl:

[LanternWaste]

387. that would be incorrect.

Bless you little heart... you infer I use or defend Homeopathy, and that would be incorrect.

Making fun of A does not necessarily mean one defends B. Sigh.

[HuckleB]

410. ROTFLMAO!

Either you are lying, or you are trolling.

Which is it?

[closeupready]

252. 253 comments and net positive of 13 recs? ROFL

You kids are slipping. :rofl:

[HuckleB]

259. Do you have a point, either way?

:shrug:

[closeupready]

260. Yes, I guess when you look at thread about, say, Polanski or BP or ending the wars,

there may be 40 or 50 comments, but 100+ recs - what I see here is 250 comments or so, 13 recs and one side of the discussion smugly patting themselves on the back. (And I'm using the term "discussion" loosely.)

I don't think I need to make a conclusion about that - the irony here really speaks for itself.

Carry on. :)

[HuckleB]

264. And you still have no point.

On edit: I now understand that you think homeopathy is something beyond faith healing.

Got it.

Oh, and... :rofl:

[johnaries]

269. Bullshit. Technically, homeopathy is crackery. Witchcraft works.

OK, ok, that's not always true. There are actually many cases where homeopathy has been proven to work. The entire concept of "vaccines" is based on homeopathy.

As far as the rest of "alternative" medicine is concerned, it is true that much of it is based on "trial and error". We don't understand "why" certain cures work - but we have strong evidence that they do. Simply because some scientists don't understand the mechanism behind it doesn't mean that it is ineffective. A "real" scientist will recognize the correlation.

[KonaKane]

274. Well said. But don't expect it to make a dent

In the minds of the angry, stubborn and determined objectivists who have to tear down anything with a slight bit of mystery to it. Boggles the mind.

[HuckleB]

277. Sorry to bring reality into your fantasy world.

:rofl:

[KonaKane]

286. You mean you baseless denunciations? That's about as fantastic as it gets.

[HuckleB]

288. Baseless?

Isn't that what all your posts are based upon?

:rofl:

[KonaKane]

290. Yes, baseless. And you laugh at your own posts too, which is pathetic.

But perhaps necessary.

[HuckleB]

295. I'm only laughing at the fantasy world you're offering up.

And I do appreciate the laughs!

[KonaKane]

306. What fantasy world? The one you're ironically concocting yourself?

[HuckleB]

308. If you only knew the definition of ironic.

:rofl:

[KonaKane]

311. Ironic - YOU deciding what reality is and isnt.

[HuckleB]

314. Evidence decides that.

You choose to ignore evidence.

Game over.

Good night.

[HuckleB]

276. Actually, no, on all accounts.

But thanks. I need some laughter tonight.

:rofl:

[Dr.Phool]

278. I'm going to open a homeopathic bar.

I'm going to water down the booze to the point where a drink might contain one molecule of the booze. Maybe. The molecule being in your glass would be purely an accident, since there might not be one.

Enjoy, and always remember to have a designated driver!

[HuckleB]

282. I'm not sure why it hasn't been done yet.

[Cha]

281. Homeopathy works for me.. I haven't

been to a Dr since I broke my wrist in 1980 and have used Homeopathic remedies we sell at the Natural Foods Co-op, I've worked at for the last 11 years, to treat different illnesses over the years.

Imv, the medical ass. doesn't want the competition. How many people die each year from prescription drugs..and suffer side effects from the drugs prescribed?

[HuckleB]

283. You could have saved yourself some money and trouble by doing nothing.

[Cha]

284. LIttle do you know..as I said..it works.

[HuckleB]

287. Nope.

You might have been born yesterday, but I wasn't.

:rofl:

[KonaKane]

289. Atheists fundamentalists and Religious fundamentalists are two side of the same coin.

You're wasting your time.

[HuckleB]

294. I love it when fundamentalists try to run away by painting others with their own face paint.

[Name removed]

299. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HuckleB]

301. That's hilarious.

The Taliban attacks me as being one of them.

:rofl:

[Cha]

297. Yeah, I know..it's weird to have someone

say that a healing property didn't work for me when they weren't even there all those years.

Trying to decide what you call that? Deniers of reality? Minds so closed that the oxygen can't get in?

[HuckleB]

300. No, it's not.

Research can show why you think what you think.

But you don't care about the real world, so you pay scam artists to scam you.

[Cha]

319. You poor thing..you should see a dr about your ego.

[HuckleB]

323. It's got nothing to do with me.

It's just real world evidence. You should check it out.

I'll give you some leads:

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/

http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/

http://scienceblogs.com/

Challenge yourself, and challenge those you know. It's good for you.

[saltpoint]

345. ...and don't stand too close to that ferris wheel, either.

[HuckleB]

347. And the pointless remain so.

[closeupready]

312. Don't bother - he posts a thread in General "Discussion" and then refuses to discuss

or entertain discussion of other ideas.

I mean, maybe this should be moved to the lounge?

[KonaKane]

315. Yup. He babbles nonsense and laughs at his own posts. Pretty pointless

to have a discussion with him. Thanks for the heads up.

[HuckleB]

318. And you offer what?

There is a board to discuss fiction and fantasy.

[DatManFromNawlins]

362. If any religion were "real"...

... people across the world, regardless of previous affiliation, would be practicing or attempting to practice it within weeks of the discovery of its "reality." There isn't a single "real" thing about witchcraft, except for the same sense of self-delusion that follows fanatics of religions of all stripes.

[HuckleB]

363. Shhhhhhhhhh.

You're going to bum out a far too many DUers with that stuff.

:hi:

[HuckleB]

317. "Ideas."

I refuse to entertain fantasies without evidence. Why should I?

[DatManFromNawlins]

500. I haven't been to a doctor since 92 and haven't had a fever since 1979

And I haven't done ANYTHING health-related. Must be all that fresh air from the chemical plants like Shell and Monsanto and all the fertilizers in the runoff from the Mississippi River, keeping me healthy.

Idiot.

[HuckleB]

341. Medicine v magic: the homeopathy scam

http://www.spiked-online.com/articles/00000002D1E2.htm

[texastoast]

364. I'll do herbs and chiropractic any day

Over docs. For me, they work just fine and have for over 30 years when I first understood the FDA scammers. It really pisses off my MIT chemical engineering doc to whom I do go occasionally when I feel a need to bring out the big guns. It is interesting to see how he has come around from a mindset that the body is merely a great big machine to acknowledging the benefits of holistic approach.

You keep your lycopene. I'll take the tomato.

[moriah]

372. While I agree with you in principle....

... I do hope that if you ever start having life-threatening problems that you will bring out the "big guns".

As I said, when I had no other choice I treated myself with herbs and recovered from pneumonia. I've been prescribed sleep aids, but I generally only take them if my combination of melatonin, valerian, hops, and passionflower doesn't work. I'm very fond of treating sinus problems by putting a pot of water on the stove, heating it to boiling, then turning off the heat, putting eucalyptus, tea tree, and thyme essential oils in the water, and inhaling the steam.

But when I noticed I was experiencing episodes of tachycardia, I went to the doctor. :)

[texastoast]

383. Motherwort works wonders for tachycardia

But everyone has their own level of comfort with self-treatment, especially with something like the heart. I, like you, have done a lot of study, and was surprised to find that tachycardia is very common, and dare I say natural and normal, for women of a certain age. But of course, we have been taught to fear such things. Respect and understanding are better.





:hi:

[moriah]

467. I'm only 30.

A bit young for it.

I went to the doctor, and I've got a follow-up EKG scheduled next month. The one he ran didn't show any of the really serious reasons for tachycardia, so I was relieved at least that it wasn't one of the more serious varieties. He wanted to prescribe beta blockers, and I asked if we could do a trial of me increasing cardiovascular exercise to see if it would lower my heart rate (the better shape your heart is in, the less it has to work). He thought it was a good idea, and I needed to get off my ass more anyway, so I have been doing 3 hours of cardio a week. We'll see if there is any improvement.

My thought on the matter is that I don't think my heart, kidneys, liver, or any of those other really important organs are things I want there to be major problems with, and if nothing else, doctors have some cool tests. If I'd just started working out thinking it would help and I'd had one of the more serious varieties of tachycardia, I could have killed myself in the gym -- that would have been pretty rude to the nice people at my gym. They have an automatic defibrillator, but I really don't think they want to use it. :)

[HuckleB]

375. That's one big round of spin.

You must be dizzy.

[closeupready]

376. So now everyone who disagrees with you is 'spinning' (see post #356).

I have to hand it to you, you really got some attention out of this thread. Well done.

[moriah]

377. Don't worry, he thinks I'm crazy too.

Because I can see the efficacy, if for no one else than the parents, in a product that is used for a self-limiting illness like teething.

How many "quack nostrums" are sold for colic? Grippe water, etc? But they don't hurt the kid and make the parent actually feel like they're doing something instead of sitting around and doing nothing. If they give the same amount of peace of mind to the parent that getting away from the kid and having a stiff drink (generally about the same cost as grippe water, teething tablets, etc) would give, then I don't see the harm.

Seriously, I grew up hearing how awful my colic was for my parents to deal with. Mom was breastfeeding and cut out almost every product in her diet she could think of in an effort to try to help (just didn't cut out dairy, which turned out to be the most likely culprit -- I'm allergic to milk). They took me to the doctor and the doctor prescribed phenobarbital drops -- which didn't help either.

Honestly I think the better solution would have been to give the phenobarbital to my parents. I'm thankful that there were five caregivers who could rotate out time with me (my mom and dad, my grandparents, and my older sister) so that I didn't end up a victim of Shaken Baby Syndrome.

[closeupready]

388. You get it, I wish the threadstarter did. Reality is rich, unlike dogma.

In the real world, we live and work alongside people who believe that they "are the Chosen Ones", who believe in magic underwear, who believe that they get 72 virgins if they are good muslims, who believe we simply turn into worm food, game over.

But I would never scream, "YOU'RE NOT ENTITLED TO YOUR OWN FACTS!!!!!!!!" to those who are observant Jews or Catholics. People are just going to believe what they believe. As long as I don't have to believe what they do, so be it. There may even be valid reasons for what they believe.

'Live and let live' is more than just another axiom; it actually means something. I think as we get older, we eventually do learn this, and no matter how many times we respond about agreeing to disagree, or live and let live, or whatever, some people (mostly younger) just have to learn things the hard way.

Peace. :hippie:

[HuckleB]

420. Live and let live does not pass muster when people are scamming others.

Choosing to ignore science puts us all in peril. And it's quite dogmatic to do so.

[HuckleB]

419. So noting the ineffectiveness of an unregulated product = thinking you're crazy?

WOW!

[moriah]

469. Actually, they are regulated.

The FDA regulates homeopathic formulations.

Funny, huh?

But seriously, you don't seem to see my point of view at all. So I'll try to spell it out for you.

There are many self-limiting illnesses in this world. These are things that are going to get better eventually no matter what, and the only real cure is time and patience. There are also fairly minor, non life-threatening illnesses and complaints that people sometimes have. Many people just choose to live with them. Some choose to go to the doctor -- but in some cases, the prescription cure is worse than the disease because of side effects.

In those cases, I see nothing wrong with using herbal, OTC, or even homeopathic remedies, if they relieve a person's symptoms. Things I consider self-limiting illnesses include teething, colic, colds, motion sickness, minor aches and pains. Things I see as minor illnesses that are not life threatening include insomnia, anxiety, mild depression, PMS, mild allergies, gas, and constipation.

I also think it's intelligent for a person to know various first-aid treatments to use until they can seek medical care for more serious illnesses, and I think herbs and OTC medications can be helpful in those instances. But they are not a substitute for that medical care.

When a person is in danger of their life or limb, they need to get themselves to a doctor. No OTC or homeopathic remedy is allowed to be marketed to target serious or life-threatening illnesses. Yes, the FDA regulates that. When some quack says they are able to cure cancer, for instance with peach pits, the FDA jumps their shit very quickly and shuts them down. Which I think is a good thing.

Do you understand me now?

Good!

[HuckleB]

470. You're fine with scams that can harm people.

I got that a long time ago.

:rofl:

[moriah]

473. And just what on earth harm do you see in what I said?

You really need to learn how to read.

[HuckleB]

490. I read what you wrote.

You are making excuses for scams. That's all you are doing.

[Ignis]

384. So civil, eh?

[closeupready]

389. Yeah, he seeks not to discuss, but to lecture.

Maybe he failed to make tenure? :rofl:

[HuckleB]

408. How many excuses can you offer up?

Ignoring actual evidence is not discussion, yet that's what's been put in play by those who defend homeopathy on this board.

[HuckleB]

405. Spin is spin. Why shouldn't I call it for what it is?

[texastoast]

391. Nope. It is just my experience with both approaches.

What I find amusing about you is that you seem to really believe that your judgment is completely right, for everyone. Period. End of story. Mind closed.

However, I find it very hard to argue with facts. And the fact is, alternative methods work just as well as conventional Western medicine in many, many cases. They are tested by experience, success, and centuries of it. And they are generally mountains of money cheaper.

There are times when Western medicine just shines, and one of my favorite uses for it is diagnostics.

Not that I think my opinion will change your point of view one whit. It makes me kind of sad for you (but not real sad).

I'm done with this.

[HuckleB]

406. What you seem to ignore is that scams are scams.

And science has explained why you believe what you believe, but I don't suspect you'll choose to challenge yourself or your beliefs.

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/05/knowledge_versus_certainty_in_skepticism.php

[WolverineDG]

378. What I don't understand is the blatant hostility

towards those who want to try & use alternative medicines. I see no reason why traditional & alternative medicines can't be used together. People used to think that massage therapy was "woo woo" medicine, but now you can get a prescription for it from your doctor. I wouldn't use alternative medicine exclusively, though.

And for the record, when I was in a car accident a few years ago, I went the traditional route & was prescribed pain killer after pain killer. None of them worked, yet all of them carried a warning that continued use could lead to addiction. :wtf: I told my doctor they weren't working, but he couldn't think of anything else to do. So I did some asking around & found a good chiropractor & a massage therapist. It took only a couple of visits to both to *finally* put a stop to the pain I was in. But I guess that relief was all in my mind, or perhaps it took the pain killers six months to finally kick in. :eyes:

dg

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

380. Well, there are a few reasons for the hostility.

1. Everybody in this country is afforded a free public education. The belief in homeopathy and other assorted nonsense is just plain pissing on the education that we provided these people as taxpayers.

2. By neglecting real treatment in favor of phony treatment, they often make themselves sicker and end up taking more resources once they finally do go out and seek real medicine, as they almost always do.

3. It's a giant scam to relieve people of their money, so it's like any other sort of shady scam: pyramid schemes, televangelism, Nigerian e-mail scams. Now one could argue that these people are so stupid that they deserve to lose their money, and in many cases I'd agree. But some of them are in no position to give full and proper consent in where they give their money. Some of them are minors. Every now and then you'll hear about the couple who kills their kid because of their "beliefs."

[WolverineDG]

385. Sounds like you're in favor of forcing people to do things your way

In your world, I would not have been allowed to try an alternative therapy for the pain I was in. You would be perfectly happy with me only being allowed to continue to take pills that were doing absolutely nothing for me.

What you forget is that in this country, we have certain freedoms to live our lives as we, not you, see fit. And that includes the freedom to chose alternative medicine.

dg

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

386. Force? No.

I just think that people purposefully choosing to be stupid is immoral and wasteful.

[Desertrose]

392. And it's up to you to be the judge

of what is considered "stupidity"?


Impressive.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

393. Me and everybody else with a proper education.

I mean, it's not like this is a completely subjective matter of opinion.

[Desertrose]

396. And a "proper education" means just what exactly?

High school diploma??

College...Masters...PhD?

....and everyone else who doesn't meet your criteria of "proper education" is just stupid, ignorant and uninformed and unable to make decisions concerning their own health and wellbeing.

OK. Glad you shared that.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

397. A high school should do.

They require at least some science course work.

[Desertrose]

398. OK. High school...as long as they agree with you.

But HS or even higher doesn't count if they don't buy the science....

ETA : or even if they buy the science and feel there is more than what science can currently "prove" or know.
They have to "buy the science" 100% - no room for anything that doesn't align with current known facts.

Hmmm...

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

399. If they don't buy the scientific method...

then yes, they are morons.

And unfit to hold any position that requires a high school diploma as a prerequisite.

[Desertrose]

400. Because the scientific method holds all the answers....

and if they disregard that they are morons? Is that what you are saying?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

409. The scientific method is the only way to find out the answers.

"if they disregard that they are morons? Is that what you are saying?"

Yes. Now you're getting it.

[Desertrose]

422. Actually, no. It is not the only way to find out the answers.

But it appears that it's the only way you get answers...


And the rest of US are the stupid ones?

Pretty interesting view you have there.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

425. "And the rest of US are the stupid ones?"

The ones that believe in homeopathy?

Yes.

The ones that believe in alien visitation, anal probes, etc?

Yes.

The ones who think that cell phones cause cancer?

Yes.

The ones who think that vaccines cause autism?

Yes.

The ones who think that HIV does not cause AIDS?

Yes.

The ones that think the Holocaust was a Jew trick?

Yes.

The ones that think the WTC was brought down by a controlled demolition?

Yes.

The ones that think there is no global warming?

Yes.

The ones who don't believe in Evolution?

Yes.

[Desertrose]

440. So, it's a lot easier for you to just lump everyone & everything together

that you feel is beneath your incredible intellect...whether or not they have any connection to each other.

That is a very lazy and arrogant way to view the world.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

468. "That is a very lazy and arrogant way to view the world."

Says the person who disregards scientific facts because they contradict what you to believe.

All of the above the same sort of people. Why? Because they disregard scientific facts because they contradict what they want to believe.

[HuckleB]

429. Please challenge yourself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OMLSs8t1ng

[Desertrose]

436. You make assumptions without any real tangible proof.

Amusing how you assume that I (heaven forbid) "deny science"?

If it's a matter of having good facts and proof to back up your "beliefs", then science is only as good as the data it provides.

If the tests are skewed to prove what "science" wants to prove...how much do you really know? Are you sure you really have all the information?

[HuckleB]

444. I've seen you deny it over and over again.

Thanks for the giggle, and the predictable response.

[Desertrose]

453. That's all you got?

Seriously?

Yeah, thanks for the laugh, and your predictable response.

[HuckleB]

457. Why would I need more?

[GoneOffShore]

479. So what is your method for getting answers?

Do you make observations and adjust your views based on those observations?

Are the experiments you conduct repeatable?

[WolverineDG]

401. "Proper education" = "Anyone who agrees with me"

anyone who doesn't agree with this poster obviously didn't have a proper education & is therefore ignorant & stupid.

dg

[Desertrose]

403. He's made that pretty clear, hasn't he?

Thank heavens not everyone thinks this way,eh?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

411. The lack of a proper education is a requirement to believe in homeopathy.

:shrug:

[Desertrose]

423. According to you.

But there are plenty who would disagree and prove the error of your premise.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

426. The people who disagree with me have shit for brains.

It's not because they disagree with me personally.

It's because they disagree with scientific facts.

[Desertrose]

433. Quite amusing.

"They disagree with the SCIENTIFIC FACTS."


You really do live in your own world, don't you?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

434. I live in the world where it's a scientific fact that homeopathy is bunk.

So do you, you just don't want to admit it.

[Desertrose]

438. Trust me, I do not live in the same world that you do.

You think there is only one world....the one you perceive as real.

I think you don't want to admit that there is more than what's included in the boundaries of your own world.

And you call others names.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

439. Yeah, you do.

There's just the one world. This "we create our own reality" shit is just as much bunk as homeopathy.

"And you call others names."

You and me both, kiddo.

[Desertrose]

442. That's funny...there go the names again....

I am not your or anyone's "kiddo" by any stretch of anyone's imagination.

And no...the world is as we perceive it...and mine is WAY different than yours. So I do not live in your world. Period. Its that easy.

Who ever mentioned "create your own reality" anyway?

Shit indeed.

Love your open minded responses..."kiddo".

[Desertrose]

424. according to you.

But there are plenty who would disagree and prove the error of your premise.

:)

[HuckleB]

413. They are defending scam artists, while offering up red herrings against science.

And the "hostile" defense seems to be all anyone can offer.

That's just an excuse to keep stalling.

[muriel_volestrangler]

432. In Britain, it's because taxpayer money is wasted on homeopathy

That's what I object to. The homeopathic scam artists are taking my money to provide bogus treatments.

Notice that you're talking about a chiropractor. They at least do something. Homeopaths give you distilled water and tell you it cures all kinds of different things.

[JNelson6563]

367. Let's talk about a match made in heaven, shall we?

Anyone here know any hypochondriacs? I do! Oy, do I!

Seems to me they love, love, love this homeopathy stuff cause doctors have such a hard time finding something wrong with them. The way around those stupid doctors who can't figure out all the things wrong is homeopathy! Yes, the dazzling array of treatments available is like paradise! Cures for any ailments you can think up.

Hypochondriacs and snakeoil salesmen deserve each other IMO.

Julie

[GoneOffShore]

466. Perhaps we should think of it as Evolution in Action.

Eventually the snake oil salesmen will kill off their hypochondriac patients and then won't have anyone to prey on. Of course then they'll probably go on to selling Vegematics or Shamwows.

[TheKentuckian]

379. Anything that can't be patented and doesn't drive big profits is automatically dismissed

especially if it also defies the medical training hierarchy.

[AngryAmish]

402. Exactly. That is why orthopedic doctors no long put their patients in casts

Or give them crutches. Can't patent those things.

[HuckleB]

414. Prove your assertion.

And then explain why we should allow scam artists to scam people.

[jeffrey_X]

497. thank you...

/thread

[HuckleB]

503. Maybe you will prove the assertion you thanked.

What do you say?

[Tailormyst]

394. Not big on homeopathy, but I do use herbal remedies sometimes

I don't believe either are a replacement for modern medicine, but can complement it. I don't purchase ready made items, but instead prefer to buy herbs from the shop that grows them down the road.

If you have an aloe plant on your windowsill and use it for sunburns....that is herbal medicine.

[texastoast]

430. But according to the OP, it doesn't work.

It's all in your mind and your belief system. You don't get high on pot either, providing, of course, that you have tried.

And medicinal marijuana is just scamming folks. It doesn't prevent nausea. We BELIEVE it prevents nausea, you see.

There. Pretty good summary of this thread. I've saved you a lot of trouble. ;)

[backscatter712]

437. There's a difference between herbal medicine and homeopathy.

Herbal medicine uses actual substances, derived from plant matter or who knows what, and some of those substances can and do have beneficial effects.

Homeopathy takes a substance, mixes it with water, then dilutes it over and over and over and over, maybe 30 times, and when you crunch the numbers, the dilution is so extreme that there is literally not one molecule of the original substance left. Its adherents counter the dilution math with the "water has a memory" argument, which is well, full of shit.

[HuckleB]

463. And another post that puts words in my mouth, along with offering up a big red herring.

Perhaps you should ask yourself why that is all you can offer.

Meanwhile, try reading up on reality: http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?cat=7

[Name removed]

416. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dora]

417. And I have the BEST POST NUMBER IN THE WORLD!

[GoneOffShore]

478. And it took me till this morning to realize what you meant!

Facepalm!

[Orrex]

421. One day I was walking beside a small stream on my uncle's property, and I found an arrowhead.

[closeupready]

431. Can I haz cheezburger?

[BrklynLiberal]

427. I guess the BMA realized that if people can get better without going to them, they will lose money.

There was a time here in the US when Chiropractic and Osteopathy was condemned by the AMA.

Anything that took $ away from regular MDs was condemned.

[HuckleB]

428. Much chiropractic should be condemned.

Homeopathy is nothing but a scam. Are you really going to defend a scam?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OMLSs8t1ng

[Dorian Gray]

554. Much?

But not all?

Interesting to see which type you don't think should be condemned. And why.

[HuckleB]

445. Your doctor's only in it for the money. Right?

http://scienceblogs.com/whitecoatunderground/2010/05/dont_believe_it.php

[GoneOffShore]

485. An interesting article and a really great discussion thread.

And of course you've received no response from your detractor.

That would have required reading both the article you cited along with digesting it and the discussion that follows.



I'm so surprised!

No, not surprised. Shocked, shocked I tell you that there would be a lack of response.

[AsahinaKimi]

450. I once met a couple in Arizona.

She was going to be a nurse, and he was going to be a doctor. They were married, and Evangelical Christians. I was once talking to someone about Bio Feedback, and they jumped in saying it was just a Satanic form of witchcraft. We mentioned that certain drugs which came from plants in South America, which had been discovered and used by Native people. They also claimed that they would never use such products of Satanic origin,...

I think at that point, I saw the ending to their short career, and was pretty glad that if they went to Medical school, they probably would not get any kind of medical license to practice, with these kinds attitudes.

[Dorian Gray]

477. Biofeedback is satanic?

LOL. People are crazy.

[Duer 157099]

456. Doctors believe in witchcraft now? n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

458. Witchcraft is a phase that teenagers go through. Like goth. Or emo.

Weealos and juggaboos.

[the recognitions]

483. I haven't had any luck with homeopathy

but I would never denounce it. It started the AMA, FYI, and others swear by it.

[HuckleB]

495. And some swear by faith healing.

:shrug:

[Barking Spider]

507. The rightwing doesn't have a monopoly on anti-science garbage.

The right-wingers have their anti-evolution, and anti-global warming nuts.
The left is entrenched with anti-vaxers, anti-science based medicine, and MIHOP nuts.

The right is paranoid about atheists, socialists, and environmentalists.
The left is paranoid about "big-pharma", corporations in general, and the military-industrial machine.


The common thread being paranoid conspiracy theories with little-to-no basis in reality.

[HuckleB]

508. Exactly.

Michael Specter covers the full-spectrum of science denial quite well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OMLSs8t1ng

[GoneOffShore]

514. The anti science whackaloons have been much in evidence.

Perhaps they are closer to the creationists and holocaust deniers than we like to admit.

[Forkboy]

517. Witchcraft responds: "No, we're just a band."

[Radical Activist]

529. Doctors can go to hell, say witches.

[Hepburn]

540. So....what's wrong with witchcraft?

:shrug:

[Name removed]

547. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HuckleB]

563. A homeopath unplugged from reality

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/05/a_homeopath_unplugged_from_reality.php

[HuckleB]

564. A challenge to homeopaths

http://scienceblogs.com/whitecoatunderground/2010/05/the_homeopaths_are_trying_to_m.php