So, what should we do about illegal immigration?

[blondeatlast]

It's a simple question that has plagued the border states for a couple of decades now (really, it didn't seem to be a huge problem before the '80s).

The Feds can't seem to do anything about it and the general consensus at DU seems to be that Arizona fucked up their attempt (I, an Arizonan for over 40 years, think that they have ROYALLY fucked the situation up and that they did it in the most racist way they possibly could).

Can we see past m$m memes, political opportunism from the likes of John Mccain, John Kyl, and the contemptible Palin wanna-be Jan Brewer (who turned out way, way worse than I even imagined from her SoS days)?

I think DUers can be compassionate and logical, and I'm betting we can beat the contemptible farts who think legislation and a wall are the only answers. There are no perfect answers, but there surely have got to be better ones. We're a smart (and mostly compassionate) bunch.

You game?

PS: Jan Brewer most assuredly does have Palinesque ambitions--here's our chance to maybe hold her back a little.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

1. Improve access to legal immigration.

:shrug:

[blondeatlast]

2. Well, um, well,...

Yeah. It's so crazy it just might work.

[harkadog]

10. While we have 10% official unemployment.

Yeah, brilliant idea.

[ieoeja]

18. Which is why illegal immigration is at its lowest point in over a decade.

One thing about a bad economy, it provides less enticement to people to come here looking for work.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

31. Dey dook ir jerbs?

[Riftaxe]

60. remember they do the jobs that Americans won't do

because Americans would much prefer to live in poverty.

[SwampG8r]

104. that whole reasoning is bullshit

americans will take the jobs
if
they are paid a living wage
they are provided decent legal work environments
they are provided the legal protections of all other workers

when you hire illegals you can avoid the law because they cant report you

americans wont take the jobs as they are because we allow the agribusinesses to break the laws regarding workers

support for illegal immigration is support for their slave like life
support of illegal immigration is support of the corporatocracy and the big businessman

[Riftaxe]

107. did i really have to add a sarcasm tag?

really?

[SwampG8r]

111. oh....sorry...never mind

just in from work
i have a knee blowing out and i refuse all "pain" medicine
must be making me cranky again

[Upton]

118. delete

[William Z. Foster]

79. management destroys jobs

Management eliminates jobs and depresses wages, workers don't.

It is much cheaper for corporations to hire the some workers to do the same work south of the border than it is here. Things made with cheaper labor in other countries is what is depressing wages here and destroying jobs here.

Corporations - wealthy people - are free to move at will across borders and do whatever they like.

we have Democrats blaming workers rather than the bosses? How does that differ from the very core of the Republican and right wing agenda?

[Zynx]

100. There is virtually no evidence to suggest that immigration causes unemployment.

[Warren Stupidity]

119. Never mind that. The important thing is to hate the other. nt.

[pampango]

12. While I agree wholeheartedly, you'll notice in the UK that just because immigration is legal

there is still much resistance to "them". Much of the right wing appeal in Europe, like the BNP in the UK, is based on anti-immigrant sentiment even when almost all of the immigration is legal.

In the US it is easier to camouflage anti-immigrant sentiment as being just anti-illegal immigrant. If we dealt with illegal immigration partially by increasing access to legal immigration, I believe you would still see a lot of resistance to those immigrants as well.

The two conservative anti-immigration organizations, the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR) and NumbersUSA are both for reducing all immigration, not just illegal immigration.

The Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR) is a non-profit tax exempt educational organization in the United States that advocates changes in U.S. immigration policy that would result in significant reductions in immigration, both legal and illegal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federation_for_American_Immigration_Reform

"NumbersUSA is an immigration reduction organization whose intent is to reduce the United States' annual immigration to pre-1965 levels, without country of origin quotas as established in the Immigration Act of 1924."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NumbersUSA

I don't think either of them would support an increase in legal immigration. I'm not sure how most DU'ers would react to an increase in legal immigration, even if it was paired with a decrease in illegal immigration. :)

[SargeUNN]

3. Well Rational Discussions is out the window on this

I have tried to discuss the problems that really exist in more ways than one, both here and on my radio show, but it never gets much attention. If I posted some wild header for the thread it might get a lot of views but not much interaction, and the sad thing is the problems are solvable with rational thinking and an interest in what the problems really are. Seems we would rather have the current discussion than getting a real solution on all sides of the issues, so I doubt this problem is going to get any real solutions until all decide to stop the insulting and start learning the facts as they are. I won't try to start another topic that would get to more of the details of what the problems are since it would only be a waste of effort. Hopefully one day we will grow up and discuss it beyond the point we are and then, like with Jim Crow, we can put Juan Crow in the place it belongs, the trash.

[Taverner]

4. Open the border, wide

Unify working conditions among all NAFTA states
Unify healthcare among all NAFTA states

Make life better - then they won't want to come here

[Goblinmonger]

6. You beat me.

Congrats. :cheers:

[blondeatlast]

7. But wouldn't that mean a scary influx

of US citizens to Canada?

:evilgrin:

I'm game!

[slackmaster]

20. What about US vaccination requirements for immigrant visas?

Would you just do away with those?

http://travel.state.gov/visa/immigrants/info/info_1331.html

[Toucano]

29. Vaccination requirements don't have to be eliminated.

You can eliminate visa requirements and maintain vaccination requirements.

I need a vaccination for yellow fever when I leave Colombia, for example, and enter Costa Rica.

But I do not need a visa. It is automatically granted.

[Taverner]

44. How about having an immunization program for Mexico?

As an ex Peace Corps volunteer, let me suggest them for the job :)

[Toucano]

27. ^ What Taverner said. n/t

[MerryBlooms]

38. Unity.

We're drowning in red tape and murdering people with our faux immigration laws. It's all about instilling fear and hate in the base, then political gains from that fear and hate.

[Goblinmonger]

5. Open the borders

It should have morally and logically been done with NAFTA.

[harkadog]

8. Speaking from someone who is 2000 miles away from the problem.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

9. You don't favor opening the borders?

So I guess the problem isn't the legality of immigration, just all those damn immigrants.

[blondeatlast]

19. It took less time than I thought it would for that sentiment to come out.

Really, I gave it at least an hour.

[slackmaster]

23. Open, but verify that people aren't carrying infectious diseases that are endemic to their homelands

http://travel.state.gov/visa/immigrants/info/info_1331.html

[harkadog]

89. I'm not a libertarian

They are the only political party that favors that. They have plenty of openings I'm sure.

[UndertheOcean]

11. Poor Human beings are a "problem" ,maybe you should look for a "solution" then , I won't join you .

and enough with the Feds half ass'ed solutions , we need the mother of all solutions , a "final solution"

[harkadog]

91. Try writing understandable grammar the next time you post.

[UndertheOcean]

99. Try understanding. n/t

[blondeatlast]

16. I used to live right in the heart of the "problem" and I think it's a great idea. nt

[UndertheOcean]

22. +100 , Because you are not a Racist.

[SargeUNN]

34. 2000 miles away, probably just as much knowledge as here

I have lived in Arizona for 3 years, done radio shows on the issue both where I am now and at Nova M/KPHX and the thing I keep noticing is how people don't want to learn below the surface about the people but generalize them. They are not just one type but people don't want to waste time getting informed so they just lump them all in the same group. I tried to get a thread going about it and share the knowledge I have gained, but sadly it drew little attention. I did open up for calls on this on my radio show more than once, but it generated few calls. We can't solve it if we don't learn and we just don't want to.

[blondeatlast]

As a long, longtime AZ resident, I can say you are completely correct about the attitudes.

15 years ago, BB 1070 wouldn't have passed. There has become a quiet hatred here, mostly since the migration influx of the mid 90s.

A legislator proposing something like SB 1070 would have been roundly (but quietly) rebuked by his party--that is clearly no longer the case.

The vast influx of people found an outlet for their latent racism (and make no mistake, it is racism) here--our disturbingly warped state legislature and the ridiculous Proposition system. Now it's okay to hate "those people"--you just vote for the craziest leggie candidate or the latest hate-prop on the ballot.

I keep telling people that just you wait--this is going to hurt the tourism industry and that will make SB 1070 vanish. I saw it in the 80-s with MLK Day and because it affects tourism, I will see it now.

The boycotts will work--especially in this crappy economy. Watch and see.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

40. He lives very close to the Canadian border -nt

[Goblinmonger]

66. Yes, of course

because proximity to the problem makes one inherently smarter. Do people in AZ see the problems with NAFTA and no open borders? Apparently not since they seem to love their racist "immigration" legislation.

[proteus_lives]

108. +1

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

42. I was going to type "do like the EU does", you beat me to it, but I think my phrasing is better.

Putting "open" and "borders" in the same sentence fires up the irrationality.

"Doing like the EU does" says it's not any kind of "capitulation".

[ieoeja]

13. Purchase the 13th most northern Mexican states (and part of a 14th).

12 of those are, like our existing Rockie Mountain states, largely unpopulated. It would infuse much needed cash into the Mexican economy, shrink our southern border down to only 500 miles, and our states on the new southern border won't be full of people who get angry when someone speaks spanish.

I think 26 Mexican-American senators would help balance out the US Senate nicely....

And if they don't want to sell, well, they didn't want to give us Arizona either, now, did they?

:evilgrin:


Seriously though ... what everyone else has said. Add labor minimums (using Canadian model) and environmental minimums (using American model) to NAFTA. Then open the borders.

[UndertheOcean]

14. Simple , Open all borders now , problem solved.

although problems of Xenophobia , gentrification and racism will rear their ugly heads for a while before they are relegated to the dustbin of history.

[proteus_lives]

109. "dustbin of history"

You actually think those problems would go away?

Really?

[Starry Messenger]

15. Open the borders.

That or pass laws against offering lowered wages to international workers. The foreign born workers should have the same wages as the domestic workers. Solidarity.

[Quantess]

17. Crack down on the employers

and stop demonizing the illegal immigrants. They come here to work, and who can blame them for that? Meanwhile, big businesses get a free pass to employ them illegally.

[Fla_Democrat]

39. Starve them out?

If businesses are cracked down to the point they will not hire them, then what? :shrug:

[Quantess]

50. How about hiring some legal US residents?

That would be the law abiding thing to do.

[Fla_Democrat]

58. Does not answer the question posed..

So, what should we do about illegal immigration?

Ok, hire legal US residents...... but, the question isn't what are we going to do about the legal US resident problem. :shrug:

[Quantess]

59. But, you agree people come to the US illegally to work...?

If there is no work for them, the overwhelming majority won't come here. Are we on the same page, or was there something I missed?

[Fla_Democrat]

69. Some do, but certainly not all

Some come to escape oppression, be it from society, their government, or family. Some to work, for how ever long, then go home, some for other reasons.

But, we can agree that by denying them employment, the net result will be to starve them out? Oh, they may not die from that starvation, they may leave before it gets to that point, but that is the end goal, right?

I'm looking at the 'then, what' aspects. Shouldn't those be considered? It's easy to throw out suggestions (nothing personal, I see a lot listed that can't pass the 'and then what' test), but shouldn't we look past the initial feel good statement to the ramifications of them? :shrug:

Perhaps a crack down on landlords who rent to people crossing the border in an unlawful manner? No work, no place to stay if/when they would get here..... :hi:

FWIW, I don't have the answer, never claimed to, but I see more questions arising from answers, and that only makes me ask more questions.

'Every question answered leads to seven other questions. Therefore, the gathering of knowledge merely increases the awareness of how much more there is to still know' :smoke:

[William Z. Foster]

74. "some"

Of course some from every group do just about anything we could imagine.

Amnesty and citizenship is the solution, followed by a sane discussion about how to prevent this nightmare from happening again. The "nightmare" I am referring to is not the presence of workers from south of the border, but rather a nation in the grips of a hateful racist frenzy and a population willing to burn the Constitution over that.

"Starve them out???" Deny "them" housing???? Encourage landlords and employers to act in a racist way - force them to?

Good fucking God pardon my French.

What are we becoming?

[Fla_Democrat]

88. I didn't propose denying them employment

I just said what would happen if they were denied employment. "Good fucking God" ok, Good fucking God, but is not going after the employers with a severe vengeance.. didn't i see a recommendation to execute employers? (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8361823#8362542)... ok, what happens? It's easy to propose things, but hey, shit happens when you do those things.

"Starve them out???" Deny "them" housing???? Encourage landlords and employers to act in a racist way - force them to? Isn't the idea of punishing employers who take advantage, to prevent them from hiring people who would cause them to be punished? If there is no employment, what is the end result? Money falls from the sky? How do they survive? How do they feed their families? How would you live, if you could not work, because hiring you would get your boss killed, or at the very least have their business shut down? :shrug:

Lets look at your suggestion... Amnesty and citizenship is the solution, followed by a sane discussion about how to prevent this nightmare from happening again. Ok, what next? A year, 10 years, if we can't come up with a solution, then what? Another Amnesty and citizenship is the solution, followed by a sane discussion about how to prevent this nightmare from happening again? That never has happened, we can give that a try. :smoke:

I'm trying to have that sane discussion now... but it seems that is too much trouble to think past the feel good chant.

[William Z. Foster]

96. what will probably happen

There is probably no heading this off now. There will need to be some serious shit happen before the anti-immigrant crowd will be satisfied. We will look back on it 30 years from now as one of those dark chapters in US history.

Therefore it doesn't much matter what "solutions" we dream up. There is an ugly mob forming, and they will no doubt have their way.

[SPedigrees]

114. Thank you for your voice of sanity. nt

[William Z. Foster]

51. won't work

That solution is based on a false view of the problem. It is not about "illegal immigration" - no one is worried about or harassing the many Eastern European workers we see in the food industry. Citizens and legal residents who are brown are under unbelievable pressure and subject to being seriously impacted by illegal arrests and detention.

It is racism, nothing more and nothing less. Demanding that employers be racist is not a solution. Demanding that employers become de facto agents of federalized out of control law enforcement is taking us in a very dangerous direction. I predict that virtually all who are advocating that today will live to deeply regret it.

If the immigrants wanted to work for large US corporations and be exploited and paid poor wages, they would stay in their home countries. If you think attacks on the immigrants are stopping now that the administration is threatening and going after employers you live in a different reality than I do. If you think the administration is threatening any corporations you are living in a fantasy world.

Since no one knows who is "legal" and who is "illegal" - and there are no ways to discover it that are consistent with the Bill of Rights or a civilized and free society. Therefore, the idea that people are being exploited because they are "illegal immigrants" cannot be true.

The "free pass" you are describing and want to eliminate is what we call "the Bill of Rights." Yes, a "free pass" - people are presumed to be innocent until proven guilty.

This ill-advised and poorly thought through "go after those employers!" nonsense is simply a way to get liberals and Democrats on board with the racist anti-immigrant hysteria.

[Quantess]

53. So, is it too much to ask

that employers make an effort to only hire people that they reasonably believe are legally in this country?

Most of your commentary is embellishing on things I didn't write in my post, by the way. I wrote a concise post, so I'm not sure where you're getting all of that.

[William Z. Foster]

76. yes

Far too much to ask - obviously - and far too high a price for all of us to pay.

There is one and only one way for "employers make an effort to only hire people that they reasonably believe are legally in this country" - or actually to never hire people who others may THINK are "illegal" - and that is to refuse to consider any brown people for employment. That is against the law, as it should be.

[Quantess]

83. Of course racial discrimination is against the law.

But, for some reason I still have to give my employer my social security number, and I'm white. I'm pretty sure most people have to give their social security number (if not show the card) and an ID to their employer. The IRS demands that they get paid, you see.

Any error naturally goes toward unknowingly hiring an illegal immigrant who gave a fake social security number, but there should at least be an effort to check their legal status.

[William Z. Foster]

85. yes

Should that cover all things? For all people? Should no employer hire anyone without checking their background, without getting permission from law enforcement? Or only brown people? Only those "suspected" of "being illegal?"

Should employers be held criminally responsible for what is in your blood stream? Should piss tests be mandatory? Should employers be jailed for "knowingly" hiring drug users? What other crimes, or suspicion of crimes, should we have employers watch us all for?

There is no reliable federal database that tells us who does and who does not have a right to live or walk around or work. Would we want there to be one? Bush initiated a policy to try to do this with Social Security numbers. Many innocents suffered due to errors by the SS administration. The ACLU and organized Labor went to court to stop the police state action of checking on and spying on people, and the use of a federal database to track all of us for law enforcement purposes.

This is solved by a sane immigration policy. The anti-immigrant hysteria drives people underground - of course. That makes all of the problems worse - of course. Hell lots of people right here, native born, are discussing ways to get out of this country, to get off the grid, to go underground, or how to avoid the surveillance state.

To solve the "illegal" problem we need to bring people in from the cold, not threaten and harass them. Most of the people targeted - by far - are in limbo. Immigration refuses to give them a "yeas" or a "no." Employers are forbidden by law to do any more than they are doing about this. No employer wants "illegals" - why would they?

If you want people to follow procedure, there needs to be a procedure. What we are seeing right now is the absence of any sane procedure, complete chaos, and the people suffering from this the most are the very ones that people now want to target for draconian and illegal law enforcement action.

Yes, it is illegal to arrest and detain people on suspicion, to make no charges, to deny due process, to deny habeas corpus, to treat people as guilty until shown otherwise to the satisfaction of law enforcement personnel.

THAT is what is illegal about the immigration issue - the actions of the government. That will come back to bite us all in the ass. Count on that. It always has, throughout history.

[riderinthestorm]

87. I'm in the horse business. Lots of Hispanics work alongside me and my cohorts

I take a copy of their ID and SS card or green card. I check their SS numbers against the (now public and online) legal database to make sure they are legal.

But that doesn't mean they are legal. Phony ID's, green cards and SS cards are fairly easy to get.

So what do you propose us employers do? How do we "know" these guys are legal? I had the IRS send me a letter last spring about an employee who worked for me more than 10 years ago who had provided a false SS # obviously and the IRS was just catching it. The guy whose number it was was retiring and discovered this young man had been using his number. I sent my relevant copies of everything and haven't heard anything since but from what I remember, this guy was entirely "American". Dark hair but with blue eyes, perfect American accent but with a latino name.

Do I racially profile? And how do I do that when many hispanic men and women are so obviously mestizo? I do my best but even the best isn't sufficient obviously.

Replicate this by a million small businesses in the food industry, horse industry, landscaping industry, farming industry etc. etc.....

Open the borders I say. NAFTA without "the rest" of the openness was silly.

[William Z. Foster]

97. excellent post

Thanks.

You are describing exactly what is happening.

[redqueen]

120. Or a way to get them on board with ending the exploitation of workers.

That's how I see it.

Seemed to work fairly well under Clinton, back when such laws and regulations were actually enforced.

[SargeUNN]

21. What are the problems?

How many really know what is involved in this issue? I hear the talk here in Arizona about it, I have talked with experts on it and strangely enough, what I hear them say just never seems to get into any discussion very much. How do you solve problems when you don't understand them or don't try to. Yeah there is a moral part of this but just moral alone doesn't solve it. How many really know who these people are, what is being done, and do people understand to lump all in a single group is just what Arpaio, Pearce, and the others are doing? I think it is time we look at it more indepth and maybe we can understand it and resolve it instead of dividing our people.

[slackmaster]

24. Here's a partial list of problems that would result from simply opening the borders

* Hepatitis A
* Hepatitis B
* Influenza
* Influenza type b (Hib)
* Measles
* Meningococcal
* Mumps
* Pneumococcal
* Pertussis
* Polio
* Rotavirus
* Rubella
* Tetanus and diphtheria toxoids
* Varicella

http://travel.state.gov/visa/immigrants/info/info_1331.html

[SargeUNN]

28. Your implications are?

You certainly need to make your thought clearly because your post could be taken as one of the problem people in this discussion who just stereotypes and no better than the ones I heard back in Jim Crow saying why Blacks were not as good as whites.

[ieoeja]

32. That was a state department website he provided.

It is a fact that the United States has a much higher incidence of HIV than a lot of other countries. For that reason Americans have to get HIV tested before some of those countries will issue an American a visa.

That isn't stereotyping Americans. It is simple disease control.

Likewise, there are countries with a high incidence of readily communicable diseases. And requiring proof of recent testing for entry from those countries would be acceptable. More border area jobs for doing the testing!

That said, some of the stuff on that list should not disqualify someone from entry. Only those readily communicable through casual contact ought to keep you out.

[notesdev]

33. don't mistake the issue for race

the issue is that Mexico is a third world country with the living and health conditions that you would expect in one

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

35. Fear of ethnic minorities spreading disease is pretty much textbook racism.

That's one of the same complaints the Nazis had about the Jews.

[slackmaster]

48. Here in San Diego we occasionally have outbreaks of food-borne hepatitis

The source usually turns out to be an undocumented immigrant, who bypassed US vaccination requirements, working in a restaurant kitchen.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

70. You'll also frequently hear it among the Fred Phelps crowd.

Gays spreading AIDS, and whatnot.

[slackmaster]

77. Ignore the risk posed by unvaccinated immigrant workers at your own risk

An uncomfortable truth is still the truth. Your attempt to deflect it has failed.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

82. That's exactly what they say.

[William Z. Foster]

86. that is an argument for amnesty

If what you are saying is true, than obviously the risk to the public is far greater by keeping people in a limbo state of "being illegal" and trying to solve that with police state actions - an impossibility with horrific implications for civil liberties for all of us - than it would be to have amnesty and citizenship so as to bring people into the system.

[slackmaster]

113. The solution requires two things - A streamlined visa process for temporary workers, and...

Strict enforcement of the law, aimed both at people who bypass the system and at employers who hire them.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

43. Actually, Mexico is no longer considered a "Third World Country"

It's considered a developing country or newly industrialized country. It's also home to the riches person in the world, Carlos Slim of Mexico City.

As for the health and living conditions in Mexico, there is governmental funding and subsidized health care facilities for the poor and private clinics for the wealthy. For the most part the health care standards there vary among the various social classes. Not unlike here.

[slackmaster]

46. Race has nothing to do with it

People who live in places outside of the USA get exposed to and sometimes carry dangerous infectious diseases that are more or less under control in this country.

[SargeUNN]

54. You certainly don't live in AZ or know the depth of the problem here

In some regions where this problem is being raised it might not be racist, but here in AZ to dismiss the racist thing is really dismissing a key factor

[blondeatlast]

63. People who support SB 1070 may not ALL be racist--but if you think

those that aren't racist had enough clout to pass it, think again.

We elect the nutjob leggies we elect for a reason; they can do the dirty work many Arizonans don't want to admit they want done (keeping the Latinos down).

[Toucano]

30. Vaccination requirements don't have to be eliminated.

You can eliminate visa requirements and maintain vaccination requirements.

I need a vaccination for yellow fever when I leave Colombia, for example, and enter Costa Rica.

But I do not need a visa. It is automatically granted.



A $10 shot is much easier to comply with than a visa application process that costs hundreds of dollars and may be denied.

[treestar]

37. Wouldn't be any worse than it is with immigrants moving illegally

or for that matter, Americans moving by plane across the world and back into the US every day.

[slackmaster]

49. I'd like to see a streamlined path for LEGAL immigration that includes vaccinations

To be effective, it would have to be accompanied by strict enforcement, and harsh penalties both for workers who bypass the system and employers who hire them.

[treestar]

125. Using the immigration system to fight disease is 19th century

Americans enter and leave the country every day. Whatever they bring back comes in. There are open borders when it comes to disease.

[slackmaster]

128. People who come in legally and apply for immigrant visas have to prove that they have had...

...vaccinations for certain infectious diseases.

In case you missed the other three times I've posted this link in this thread, here it is again:

http://travel.state.gov/visa/immigrants/info/info_1331.html

[Warren Stupidity]

116. brown people are diseased?

[pampango]

123. It's Strategy #5 on "the Right-Wing Playbook on Immigration Reform".

http://www.pfaw.org/rww-in-focus/previewing-the-right-wing-playbook-immigration-reform#strategy5

"Strategy 5: Portray Immigrants as Carriers of Disease and Weapons of Bio-Terrorism

Portraying Mexican immigrants as unclean and unsafe has a long history in the United States; a recent Smithsonian exhibit on the Bracero migrant-worker program during World War II showed workers being doused in DDT at the border. Before Lou Dobbs left CNN on a wave of controversy over his anti-immigrant grandstanding, he suggested that immigrants from Mexico were responsible for an epidemic of leprosy in America, a claim he did not withdraw even after those claims had been thoroughly debunked.

ADL's 2008 report points to this gem from the Mothers Against Illegal Aliens website from November 2007:

The next time you eat in a restaurant or sleep in a hotel or motel....just remember to bring your own food, dishes, untensils , glasses, towels, and maybe your own water. The person who cooked your meal or made your bed may very well be the one who picked your fruit and vegetables, yesterday....and we've heard the stories about what they do in the fields....haven't we?

More recently, right-wing radio host Michael Savage was one of many to use the 2009 swine flu scare to drum up fear against immigrants, telling his listeners "illegal aliens are carriers…this is a disaster." Savage also suggested that the flu might be a terrorist concoction planted in Mexicans as a way of delivering it to the U.S. He wasn't the only one peddling that flu-as-weapon theory."

Response to Portraying Immigrants as Disease Carriers and Weapons of Biowarfare

Claims that immigrants are causing an epidemic of leprosy (thank you, Lou Dobbs) and other diseases is simply not true. And there is no evidence whatsoever to support the speculation by some right-wing pundits that the H1N1 flu was created by terrorists and implanted in immigrants from Mexico as a weapon of biological warfare. Spreading that kind of baseless and inflammatory speculation indicates that the speaker is not interested in serious policy debate, but is simply denigrating immigrants in order to make punitive policies more palatable to the American public, which is still inclined to support comprehensive reform. As journalist Edward Schumacher-Matos wrote in a May 2009 op ed:

Demonization of Mexican and other Latino immigrants is fueling hate crimes and violence against them, and it's time for America's leaders and media to put a stop to it all. The swine-flu scapegoating of Mexicans over the past two weeks by some radio and television talk show hosts reflects the abandon with which many local officials, anti-immigrant groups and even an unthinking mainstream media create popular resentments, dehumanize immigrants and provide justification for the extremists among us to act violently.at the flu might be a terrorist concoction planted in Mexicans as a way of delivering it to the U.S. He wasn't the only one peddling that flu-as-weapon theory."

[slackmaster]

127. The Astute Reader will note that pampango hasn't addressed the content of what I posted

It's much easier to ignore all of my other posts on this subject and to tacitly accuse me of racism than to deal with the real issue of people bringing infectious diseases into this country.

[slackmaster]

126. That list applies to any person who wants to apply for an immigrant visa for the USA

People who can follow links and know how to read plain English already know that.

[blondeatlast]

25. Good point. As I posted ealier today (see link below), I never knew there was one

until a few years ago--and I lived in Pinal County until about 15 years ago (now in north Phoenix).

[SPedigrees]

26. 1) abolish drug war 2) make legal immigration easier

3) racist Americans need to get over themselves (unless you are of native American descent, you too are an immigrant)

[Union Yes]

36. Naturalize them. knr nt

[Better Believe It]

41. Answer: Change the immigration laws so that families won't be broke up!

If you can't/won't make them legal than tear down the Statue of Liberty.

[KonaKane]

45. Reform the immigration system - punish nationals who hire illegal labor

That's basically my two prongued approach. Right now our immigration system is ridiculously bloated, slow and expensive. Even the asylum procedure is a near impossibility for Central Americans fleeing to the USA to preserve their life and limb. The only ethnic group with a fast track through asylum on this hemisphere is - you guessed it - Cuba. And I'm sure you know why.

A third thing that needs to be done is for our government to stop gladhanding the Mexican government, owned and operated by and for the benefit of a few wealthy families at the expense of the overwhelming majority of Mexicans. We need to pressure Mexico for labor and land reform, so that more jobs and more opportunities to exist present themselves to Mexican citizens: thereby making the prospect of illegal immigration to the USA unattractive.

[DailyGrind51]

47. Impose stiff fines on employers engaging in illegal hiring!

[William Z. Foster]

52. none are

This is simply a way to get Democrats to roll over for the racist anti-immigrant hysteria and support it.

I am starting to see a new phrase now - "illegal hiring." No employers - for all practical purposes - are intentionally hiring people with documentation issues. Short of racially profiling people there is no practical way for employers to protect themselves from the possibility that some of their workers have documentation issues - or as far as that goes, that you have parking tickets, or back child support issues, or a DUI in their past, or smoked a join over the weekend, or... maybe a neighbor just doesn't like you and calls a hot line with a "suspicion."

If employers stopped hiring any and all brown people the problem for them would immediatley go away. Is that what we want? That is what this is all about, If no ione saw brown people working, the whole thing would die out. Would we then STILL demand "proof of legality" from everyone? Would we stop white people? Round thenm up? Detain them?

Want to buy a bridge in Brooklyn that I am selling?

You are asking for a police state. You will regret it.

Could we, as Democrats and liberals and progressives, at the very least stop lying about this and denying the reality and stop fooling ourselves and others about it? You cannot possibly "solve" a "problem" when you are not being honest about it. The problem is that the country has gone into a crazed and viciously racist state of panic and hysteria, of bigotry and hatred.

[blondeatlast]

72. You nailed it. I've lived in AZ since the '70s (I was a child then).

Funny--MIGRANT workers were never a problem. Agriculture (then neck and neck with mining as our #1 industry) HAD to have the miggrants to survive.

Now that tourism is our #1 industry, I'm guessing that AZ still needs the migrants. Without tourism, our economy, tenuous as it is, collapses. The politicos have yet to figure that out, but when tourism flexes its muscle, they will figure it out.

Your last line is absolutely correct--and Arizona is the testing ground due to our utterly wacko legislators and the quiet racism of our latter-day "legit" arrivals. Before our population exploded (with middle class mostly Anglos (a group to which I unquestionably belong)seeking paradise), there never was a problem--and truth be told, there still is no MEXICAN immigration.

Now, as for those coming from the East (United states) and Midwest (United States), yeah--them I'd like to see quotas on.

[MadHound]

55. Stopping illegal immigration is easy,

But like many easy things in this country, it means taking on corporations, and God knows, our two party, same corporate master system of government isn't going to do that.

But here goes,

First of all, any business, corporation, company or individual found employing an illegal immigrant automatically gets hit with a ten million dollar fine, per immigrant found. Thus, when Tyson Chicken gets busted for employing twenty illegal immigrants, they get hit with a 200 million dollar fine. No appeal, no wiggle room, no mercy.

Second, no company, corporation or business can discriminate in the wages it pays, ie they cannot pay an American citizen more for their labor and less to an alien laborer doing the same job. Again, if a company is found doing this, nice hefty fine.

Third, three strikes and you're out rule, if a corporation or business is found breaking these laws three times, they are out of business, license is yanked, business is dissolved. No exceptions, don't care if it's Mom's Cafe or IBM, they're outta there.

Fourth, since we do need immigrant labor, especially in agriculture and on a seasonal basis, make it easier for immigrants to obtain the needed papers to come up here and work for X amount of time. If they overstay their time limit, they do not get to come back and they pay a fine.

Fifth, make the process of becoming a citizen much more streamlined. We are a country of immigrants, and it has and is how we function the best. Right now, part of our problem with SS and other such like programs is that the birth rate for citizens is below subsistence level. This shortfall needs to be made up by immigration. Rather than taking a decade or more, streamline this down to somewhere between two and four years, with language classes and other such transition help both mandatory and free.

A couple of other things. Repeal NAFTA. Just like NAFTA destroyed our manufacturing base, it also destroyed the agriculture industry in Mexico. Get rid of it and there will be less need for Mexicans to come to the states to make a living. Also, legalize drugs, all of them. This will get rid of the monetary support propping up the drug wars and warlords south of the border, and stabilize matters both here and in Mexico.

I think that if you followed this program, illegal immigration would drop tremendously.

Oh, and for the environment's sake, not to mention for the sake of our country, tear down that fence on the border.

[NorthCarolina]

56. Enforce the laws already on the books, and prosecute those that Hire illegals. n/t

[damntexdem]

57. Legalize it.

Next question.

[B Calm]

61. Execute the employers who hire them! PROBLEM SOLVED!!

[Geek_Girl]

62. Amnesty

and a goal toward open borders.

[LAGC]

103. +1

Amnesty NOW! Imagine them all becoming citizens and being forced to be paid legal wages by their employers, not to mention the fact that they will all vote anti-Republican by default...

[hunter]

64. Increase the minimum wage significantly, strictly enforce labor laws.

Make every U.S. job a good job, and make citizenship and union membership easy for anyone who is working here.

Make it so there are no employer incentives to abuse workers because they are undocumented, or to use undocumented workers to undercut fair wages and break unions.

Shut down any business that abuse workers or otherwise treats workers as disposable commodities, most especially those industries notorious for hiring undocumented workers, like meat packing, housekeeping, and urban janitorial services.

[winter trees]

65. I think we should tax the hell out of American companies that go to Mexico

Repeal the 14th Ammendment, and give assist Mexico with building sewers, etc. Some of those villages have no plumbing and the people have very little. We could help with that.

[liberal N proud]

67. Keep collecting the deductions for Social Security and Unemployment

They are propping up Social Security.

[blondeatlast]

73. Ssssshhhhh....

I know of a 14 year old who shares his social security number with no less than 12 individuals. Personally, he's a great kid--smart, hardworking, funny. I'm all for him having a lovely retirement.

[riderinthestorm]

94. Yup, as an employer I have personal experience with phony docs

Anyone who says 'go after the employers!!111!!11" obviously hasn't been one, dealing with phony documents.

Many illegals have perfectly legal SS#'s that are being used until they are discovered. That 14 yr old's SS# won't show up as a problem until he himself goes to work. So 12 people are going to be working illegally, even though their employers may have done everything they can to prevent hiring "illegals" because their employees have a legal SS#.

The underground for illegal docs in immigrant communities is large, extensive, breathtakingly proficient and lucrative. Its not going away anytime soon.

And employers have no way to penetrate it. We can only take the docs at face value, especially if all verification methods at our disposal are flawed (because they inherently assume anyone using that # is legal).

[Motown_Johnny]

68. offer some form of legal status to illegals who turn in their employers

for employing illegal workers.

[B Calm]

71. Hell yes!

[William Z. Foster]

78. well, that is simply horrific

The employee knows that they are themselves undocumented, of course, their boss doesn't - almost always the case - so they can trade getting off themselves by busting their boss?

That is in fact what is happening.

Snitching, snooping, suspicion, turning in others, jailhouse deals, coerced testimony, people arrested based on rumors and innuendo - are there really Democrats willing to accept that, let alone advocate for it?

[EFerrari]

81. That's disgusting. n/t

[David Zephyr]

75. Enact the very same amnesty that Ronald Reagan signed into law.

Bring people out of the shadows. Let them be fingerprinted, have work permits and welcome them into our society. They are already here. Occupancy is 90% of the law.

There a few bad apples, but having the 99% living undocumented and under fear feeds into a very bad thing for our American community. Even Ronald Reagan was smart enough to realize this. He signed amnesty into law. Our Congress and the President should do the same.

[EFerrari]

80. Stop attacking democracy in the Americas for the profit of multinationals

and troops out of Latin America. It will save $$$ AND will result in better conditions for people in their home countries.

[yella_dawg]

84. Simplicity itself...

Legalize drugs to eliminate the primary problem (violence), aggressively go after employers who hire illegals, and relax security for those who come for temporary jobs so they can come and go at will rather than stay and hide until another job comes up.

80% of the problem fixed, and the rest can be dealt with at leisure.


Or more simply, go back to the way it was for centuries, until the Free Market morons screwed it up. Thanks Ronnie!

[riderinthestorm]

92. I hired an illegal.

Didn't know it at the time. Checked his docs and made copies of all of them. Checked his SS # online to make sure it was legit. Everything squared.

Until the IRS showed up last spring to tell me he was using phony docs. I provided my copies of everything and who knows where it went but do you propose that I get slammed? Even though I did everything I could to make sure he was legal?

It's impossible to know what's a forged ID. As a small biz owner, if I were fined virtually anything, I'd be in serious financial trouble for a problem I did everything in my power to prevent.

You can say "lynch the employers" all you want but that doesn't solve at least one of the problems we face: phony docs.

NAFTA should have logically opened the borders for immigration as well. We have stupidly shot ourselves in the foot by our shortsightedness in not recognizing that creating a free enterprise zone like the EU should have also meant that we allowed our borders to be more open as well. Instead we are creating a problem (like the drug "war" on marijuana) that we are then obviously dealing with in the most asinine way.

[David Zephyr]

95. Brilliant and wise.

On the mark.

[Warren Stupidity]

117. "NAFTA should have logically opened the borders for immigration as well"

Nah they want to keep us penned into our corralls while being fed a constant stream of consumer glop ando/or competing for the bottom of the wage scale.

[William Z. Foster]

132. well said

Thank you for that.

Yes, if Capital (wealthy people) are free to cross borders for the purpose of exploiting resources and pursuing the cheapest labor possible, then why should not Labor (poor people) have the same freedom to cross borders, in order to contribute and to feed and house and clothe their families?

[Posteritatis]

90. Make it mandatory! Clean up with the reduced voter base when the GOP's collective heads explode! nt

[Jkid]

93. Obvious solution

Allow illegals to stay if they are culturally naturalized, unless they committed a serious crime.

As for incoming immigrants, do it in the Angel Island days: register, make sure they are clean of diseases, and make sure they have are planning to have jobs and to support themselves legally.

[county worker]

98. We need to also work to make it more advantageous for immigrants to stay home.

Mexico is the core of the problem. If there was a decent life available at home people would not leave.

[Zynx]

101. I'm in favor of increasing the legal immigration quotas.

That would relieve the pressure a great deal.

[murdoch]

102. NAFTA

The US has bordered Mexico since Thomas Jefferson was president. Suddenly there is talk of how immigration is a problem (which really means giving rights to immigrants, absolutely no one has any intent to do anything about immigration itself). Why after all these centuries are Mexicans flooding over the border recently? One would think with all the hot air blown about this topic that this would be discussed, these are very logical questions.

It's sort of like 9/11 - why did these people decide to fly into the Pentagon and WTC? What did they have against the Pentagon? What did OBL's message about his thoughts on the decade-long US military presence in Saudi Arabia say? One would think with all the hubbub over 9/11 these things would be discussed in the media, but of course they were not.

[DefenseLawyer]

105. Enforce labor laws, create a modern working SS# database and fix NAFTA.

If employers no longer have an incentive to hire cheap undocumented workers the lure of jobs will be much diminished. Employers have to be held accountable for hiring (and exploiting) undocumented workers. The only way to really be able to prosecute employers is to have a much better way of checking SS#'s of employees so employers can't claim ignorance. Finally we need to fix NAFTA to force Mexico to raise wages and working standards at home if they want to trade with us. The better conditions are at home the less incentive there is to come here. Notice that Canadians are not climbing that big fence we have up north.

[EFerrari]

106. Have we ever deposed a Canadian government for corporate benefit?

I was trying to figure out how much we pay to have these poor people driven north. In bribes, in funding for bases, in military "aid" to places like Colombia and Peru. I know I must be forgetting something. Corn subsidies for the corn we dump on southern Mexico. It must add up.

[ohheckyeah]

110. I don't think there is a lot we can do

unless the U.S. is willing to put pressure on Mexico and to help Mexico with it's standard of living.

Mexico actually encourages immigrants. I saw a special last night about kids coming to America by hopping trains. Some were coming from Guatemala. There were organizations that helped them on their journey by giving them advise, food and temporary shelter to rest before they continued on their way.

For many people Mexico is a shit hole of a place to live. They want better for their families and they see better through media and all of the Americans that flock to Mexico for bargains. The genie can't be put back into the bottle.

I think the best thing we can do is to help immigrants become productive citizens. Embrace their contributions to our society and get the hell over ourselves. Most of our families were immigrants and while many of us would proudly proclaim that our family came legally, do we really know that for sure?

I honestly don't know if my Irish and Scot ancestors were here legally or not. Nor do I really give a damn.

We aren't going to stop immigrants from coming over the Mexico/U.S. border as long as Mexico sucks and we have any jobs whatsoever for immigrants.

[blondeatlast]

122. DINGDINGDING! We have a winner! We need to pressure Mexico to fix its own problems.

But of course, that takes lots more than rhetoric, scapegoating, and political opportunism. It doesn't look pretty for the media, either.

Maybe we could start by not interfering in Mexico's elections. It's a crazy enough idea that it just might work.

[ohheckyeah]

130. Thanks.

It's hard to imagine what it is like in Mexico when you've never been there. I spent a LOT of time in Mexico when I lived in southern Arizona and I always came back feeling down and a bit depressed. I always had a headache when I left Nogales because the air quality was awful. I never got great bargains because I didn't have the heart for trying to talk them down in price when they were so obviously struggling.

I can't comprehend living in places like Nogales Mexico. I witnessed a lot of stuff there but I could always walk back across the border to my nice house and good job and frankly, it was always nice to get back into the U.S.

[blondeatlast]

131. The last time I was in Nogales I watched in horror as I saw men trying

to squeeze through the bars on the rotating iron gates. One nearly made it through, but the gatte moved and he had to jump off. Difficult to describe, but etched on my mind. Anyone who wants to come here that desperately deserves my welcome and regards.

I shudder just to remember it.

[ohheckyeah]

136. I went through those rotating iron gates

many times. I can't imagine anyone getting through those bars, but I believe you that someone surely tried.

I stopped one day at the export shop and got a carton of cigarettes, and as I'm sure you know a guard then walks you to the border to make sure you enter Mexico. We waited and waited and finally the guard admitted there had been a shooting right at the checkpoint on the road beside the area where you enter the U.S. I was by myself and that was a little scary.

I saw many a Mexican trying to make it through the desert. I worked on a golf course for awhile and I used to give them bottles of cold water from the beverage cart I drove. It ate into my meager wages but it was worth it.

I miss AZ and being able to go to Mexico and then again I don't, if you know what I mean.

[LostInAnomie]

112. Huge fines and jail time for employers that hire illegal immigrants.

Once the jobs are no longer here they will quit sneaking over the border and many will probably leave on their own.

[Warren Stupidity]

115. legalize it. nt.

[Upton]

121. Go after the employers..

make it a felony to hire an illegal immigrant...fines PLUS jail time. If the jobs aren't here, illegal immigration will dry up.

[librechik]

124. raise the minimum wage to 15.00 and allow all workers a path to citizenship

the reason the Cons are so crazy opposed to these immigrants becoming registered voters is because they would obviously be a huge Democratic voting block. The Pukkkes are willing to kill themselves to stop that. Otherwise, why the hell not? Take the test and become a citizen, welcome to the USA, just like my grampa!

[ThomThom]

129. The answer is very easy. Crack down on the employers that

hire people that have entered our country without proper documentation. Also tighten the rules that allow employers to bring people from foreign counties in.

[William Z. Foster]

133. not posible, and very dangerous

That argument has been thoroughly refuted many, many times - right in this thread, if you care to read what people are saying.

[ThomThom]

138. It is possible. It would help if there was a data base to check on

the number that potential workers provide the employer but we have to do it there is no other way. Employers are getting away with this because we are blaming the people they hire. Most of these employers do it because they know they can get away with it and they want all the advantages of undocumented workers.
As far as dangerous, I don't know how or what to say. The danger I see is that Americans and people that are legally allowed to work here are not getting the jobs and wages are being depressed by the shear numbers of people looking for jobs that will work for low wages.

[B Calm]

137. Absolutely! Mandatory jail time to illegal employers!!

[paulflorez]

134. Get rid of "illegal" farm subsidies!

Get rid of the "illegal" farm subsidies and watch all the farming jobs rush back to Mexico, and a majority of the immigrants here illegally along with it.

Everyone wants to blame the immigrants, but it was the U.S. that stole their jobs by subsidizing U.S. farming so that Mexican farms could not compete. All Americans are just as much criminals as the immigrant who is in the U.S. illegally just to pick lettuce. No one wants to look at it that way because Americans do not want to take responsibility for anything, they do not want to face the consequences, they want to have their cake and eat it too.

[TheFarseer]

135. make it so they can't get work

and make it so they can't get government help. They'll leave on their own. You'll find there are many people willing to do the work illegal aliens stereotypically do.