Should illegal immigrants be eligible for goverment-sponsored college aid?

[LoZoccolo]

[Oregone]

1. Depends if they should be an illegal immigrant or not

I know nothing about why the person is a resident, what schools they already attended, how long they've resided...etc.

Maybe they shouldn't even be an illegal immigrant at the time for applying for aid. Maybe the system is defective, creating this point of debate.

[Obamanaut]

2. The thing about all this discussion, there is that pesky term 'illegal'.

[napi21]

6. What wordwould you prefer for someone who hasn't followed the laws

to get a isa or other means oflega entry into the US?

[Oregone]

13. Runaway slave

[Kali]

20. ...

:thumbsup:

[Nuclear Unicorn]

30. Unfortunately since the laws & system are meant to keep them illegal

they only exchange one form of slavery for another.

Many come here and are turned into slaves some literally being chained and beaten.

As long as they are "illegal" they can be exploited because going to the authoities would get them deported back to their original masters.

[pampango]

88. Which is why the Progressive Caucus and organized labor support comprehensive immigration reform

which would include a path to legalization and citizenship.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

95. Well, they are obviously knowledgeable and enlightened...

...since they agree with me.

:D

[el_bryanto]

31. So Mexico is the equivalent of the antebellum south for blacks?

I didn't know Mexico was quite that bad.

Bryant

[Oregone]

38. Just a past label we used for an evil, unjust, illegal law breaker of the past

There are other names too we can look back and try to reapply if you wish. I was drawing no overall comparison (but rather an abstract one about the notion of legality and justice, which do not often share similar spheres)

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

49. Sigh.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=8003776

[Oregone]

52. LOL

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

57. It's amazing when you realize you wrote a reply to a post two months before that post.

Either I'm a psychic or some people are mind-numbingly predictable.

And I don't believe in ESP.

[Kali]

...

:rofl: :thumbsup:

[Kali]

22. concern about broken "laws"

is a "tell"

try something else

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

24. You get that right.

[el_bryanto]

35. Yep anybody who is concerned about obeying the law is a racist

That just goes without saying.

I hate Hispanic people so much I want to keep them from a clandestine life where they have little to no legal protections and they are preyed upon with impunity by immoral companies and criminals.

Bryant

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

45. Yep, that's what Kali said. Not.

Strawman. Exceedingly strawy strawman.

[el_bryanto]

54. concern about broken "laws" is a "tell"

According to the dictionary a tell is "an action that unconsciously reveals secret information."

What secret information does being concerned about broken laws reveal?

Bryant

[nomorenomore08]

167. Well, is anybody as much of a hardass about jaywalking or running a stop sign as they are

about "illegal" immigration? Because under the law, crossing the border unauthorized is no more serious an offense than say, a traffic violation.

So when people talk about undocumented immigrants as if they were violent felons just by virtue of being here, it really does say something about the mindset...

[Kali]

51. racist?

good chance, but I never said that

the "tell" is being overly concerned about a minor civil offense, labeling a lack of paperwork as "lawbreaking"
it is a clue to attitudes about immigrants and their place in our culture

you brought up race - and while I suspect a LOT of the "concern" about immigrants is racist, I did not accuse you of that - I know the real problem is that you (and many) are also the victim of a divide-and-conquer strategy used by the real beneficiaries of the "problems" of illegal immigration

as long as you are concerned about that term "illegal" or laws that are supposedly getting broken by these horrible criminals, you don't have to think about who is really committing the moral crimes (hint: not the immigrants)

[el_bryanto]

65. You deny it and then go on to confirm it. Very nice.

I think that businesses who take advantage of illegals and criminals are committing the actual moral crimes.

Bryant

[Kali]

113. see, it's the fact that you refer to them as criminals

that tells me you view them than as less than yourself

do you call EVERY single person who doesn't follow every single regulation a criminal? Are you aware that crossing the border without papers is a simple civil offense? It is not on a par with running some pedestrian down intentionally in your car - more like not renewing your registration on time.

[el_bryanto]

118. I'm sorry i wasn't clear - I meant those criminals who prey on the immigrents

particularly the mules who get them across the boarder, but also other criminal enterprises that prey on illegal immigrants. I wasn't clear and I apologize.

Bryant

[Kali]

186. blaming polleros is almost as bad as blaming the immigrants themselves

see, even they are just filling a need created primarily by OUR policies. With all the talk of laws and responsibilities we sure do like to blame poor people for doing exactly what we have helped set up to force them to do.

Sure there are dangerous, scummy smugglers that rip off and fuck over the people that they are bringing in, but I have met young kids from the border towns that are working for much less, guiding immigrants and doing a "fair" job at great risk legally and with their lives. Walking 50 or 60 miles in this environment is no breezy stroll across an imaginary line to come rip off the good middle class of this country.

Then there are the just sort of average every day smugglers - maybe some of the family are legal, and they mostly bring in other relatives or just friends - they are a little better off economically but it is still just in the realm of giving a hand.

Not even with the "coyotes" is it a simple black and white picture. (mulas are usually drug carriers, btw)

And with the continued demonization and escalation of the "WAR on(trademark)Immigration" the risks and benefits also escalate which in turn brings in the REAL and truly dangerous organized criminals.

None of this is just about some bad foreign men coming and taking things from us good citizens. This is a legacy from way back and ongoing (NAFTA) that affects real families, actual good people along with the same proportion of scumbags as any population - same as those who have citizenship.

[metalbot]

153. Let's not pretend it's lack of paperwork.

Unless you want to say that when I steal your car, I'm not really stealing it, I just lack the paperwork to make it really mine.

Most illegals don't lack paperwork by virtue of the fact that they forgot it at home, or it was too complicated to apply. They lack paperwork because they would not qualify to get the paperwork that would allow them to come here legally. Meanwhile, families that WOULD like to reunite legally and who do qualify to immigrate are generally left with multi-year waits to bring their families together, because the number of immigration visas is throttled back because of illegal immigration.

[Kali]

193. sure because not being able to get papers to come work here is EXACTLY the same as stealing a car

yes I know legal immigrants have a rough go too, (my father is married to a foreigner and I know several others in similar circumstances that have finished the process - yes it is a fucked up system ALL the way around) but HUNGER takes moral priority over legality, at least for most compassionate people that I know.

[Flaneur]

105. Does that mean you support comprehensive immigration reform?

[el_bryanto]

108. Which version?

I am guessing in all of the plans there will be things I like and things I don't like.

Bryant

[pampango]

156. Here's a version endorsed by AFL-CIO and Change to Win, and the Progressive Caucus.

* Rational operational control of the border
* Adjustment of status for the current undocumented population
* Improvement, not expansion, of temporary worker programs, limited to temporary or seasonal, not permanent, jobs.
* An independent commission to assess and manage the flow of future immigration workers, based on labor market shortages that are determined on the basis of actual need and,
* A secure and effective worker authorization mechanism

http://www.seiu.org/2009/04/labor-groups-united-to-unveil-unified-immigration-reform-framework.php

It's almost identical to Obama's framework for immigration reform.

[el_bryanto]

163. That sounds pretty good.

Bryant

[treestar]

97. Especially when it comes to minors

Someone brings you here illegally when you're three or four, or even fifteen, how can you be said to have broken the laws? This tries to punish them for what their parents did. Unamerican.

[RaleighNCDUer]

68. You mean like being carried across the border on their father's back

at the age of two, blatantly ignoring the law? That kind of illegal?

[Obamanaut]

154. It is the perfect word for those who fail to follow the procedures.

It is more accurate than 'undocumented worker', or some other feel-good term.

Just this morning I read somewhere that if a person robs a bank, it is an illegal act, not an 'undocumented withdrawal.'

It just seems that few, if any, people want to address the fact that illegal immigrants are in fact, law breakers.

[nomorenomore08]

168. Once again, crossing the border unauthorized is a CIVIL INFRACTION.

It's not a felony, it's not even a misdemeanor. Comparing it to bank robbery is ludicrous.

[Kali]

172. stop

they prefer the scary, brown, raping, rampaging, terrorist CRIMINALS. Makes it so much easier to hate them, than to think about poor families trying to survive in a hostile world.

[Obamanaut]

174. Well, ok if it makes you feel better, unauthorized border crossers

should be detained and returned to their country of origin, at their own expense.

If they cross without proper documentation and somehow elude authorities for a time, they have then become lawbreakers because they have remained in an unapproved status, and in fact are illegal occupants of the coutry into which they have sneaked.

The undocumented bank withdrawal was to show how words can be twisted or misused to make things seem, well, peachy.

[nomorenomore08]

202. Fine, then. Next time you get a traffic ticket, you should have all your assets confiscated

and be separated from your family.

What? You don't like that idea? It's basically analogous to what you're advocating for "illegals."

[Obamanaut]

206. No it isn't. Speed limits are posted, as are other rules for the

privilege of driving on public streets/highways. If I transgress, I am fined, and if I am prudent I slow down.

If I illegally cross over into another state from my home state, their laws are such that I am sent back to my own. If I do it again, the penalty is more severe. If I left my family in my home state to cross over into the neighboring one, I am being reunited. If, OTOH, I brought them with me illegally and I am the only one apprehended/deported, then I brought the separation upon myself.

[Lagomorph]

64. I was thinking about that...

As fast as they can deport illegals with all the associated bureaucracy, it seems to me they could grant them a work or student visa without significantly adding to the workload. The trick would be quick access to applicants pubic records in Mexico/Latin America.

There is already a huge industry for temporary labor, whether it's legal or not. Getting it above board would mean at least minimum wages for everybody and a level playing field for immigrants and Americans.

I spent more than a few years working for minimum wage, it's not fun, but at least I ate. If I wanted money, I could usually get overtime, since I was cheap to hire.

[Kali]

79. a good part of the reasnon they are "illegal" is BECAUSE they don't have access to their own records

a poor camposino does NOT have the resources to acquire the records, IF THEY EVEN EXIST! It drives me up the wall how we just assume the whole fucking world operates like the way we have it!

Some poor rural person in Mexico probably doesn't even have electricity much less some way to access records that are located in some far off city, if they even exist. It means traveling and staying (and eating, bathing etc) in a big city for days at a time - how do you accomplish this with no money? Then the general confusion of ANY bureaucracy - try to think about this in NON-educated, middle class, American terms!

[Lagomorph]

126. Yeah, I was hoping...

...we could give Mexico a hand with that. I know it's a huge problem for them. Those are our rules and if we want them obeyed, we should do what we can to make it happen. It's a big fucking deal.

[baldguy]

184. +1000

They're only "illegal" because bigoted, xenophobic & narrow-minded laws make them so. They're not any less human.

[napi21]

3. Illegal immigrants shouldn't be eligible for ANY gov't aid.

If someone can't gain a legal visa or other documentation, they shouldn't get anyassistance. It's not that difficult to get a visa.

[Better Believe It]

9. And if the gov't tightens up requirements are you OK with that?

It's not easy to enter the United States legally and stay.

Aren't there quotas and who decides what those quotas are .... you?

What's a "fair" quota as opposed to an "unfair" quota?

If this nations doors are no longer open I suggest we be honest and either tear down the Statue of Liberty or return it to France.

[Better Believe It]

10. And if the gov't tightens up requirements are you OK with that?

It's not easy to enter the United States legally and stay.

Aren't there quotas and who decides what those quotas are .... you?

What's a "fair" quota as opposed to an "unfair" quota?

If this nations doors are no longer open I suggest we be honest and either tear down the Statue of Liberty or return it to France.

[kctim]

29. A door is not closed

just because you need a ticket to enter.

[Oregone]

43. Pretty much if you are a laborer who won't be given a ticket

The reality is that their labor is desired and required on this side of the border. But the elite does not believe this type of labor is valuable enough to be rewarded with any options to become citizens. They may work for decades, break their bodies, and contribute grossly to the economy, but the elite will forever view them as worthless dirt not worthy of being called "Americans". This is a class issue as well as a labor issue.

[Abq_Sarah]

103. Cheap labor is desired

Which lowers the wages of people here legally.

[Oregone]

106. Illegal labor is cheap labor

Keep it illegal, and thats just what you will keep getting.

[Abq_Sarah]

135. Sort of like

Keeping your house unlocked to prevent future burglars from breaking down the door?

[Oregone]

139. Sort of like stupid

Whether you let people break into your home or not, stealing is illegal and harmful. By calling them future burglars, you are implying that they will do terrible things once they gain entry to your home, and therefore their path into the home shouldn't be left open.


Do immigrants who work the fields do horrible things perpetually once they come? Or is the illegal activity specifically isolated to the fact that door wasn't opened in the first place? You see...once you open the door, they are no longer "perps" and what they are doing isn't bad.

[Abq_Sarah]

196. I don't know how to explain this

To someone who isn't directly impacted or who doesn't think they're impacted by illegal immigration.

We apparently, live in two different universes.

[Kali]

175. actually, I do do that.

nobody is going to see, hear, or stop anybody from breaking into my house, so I don't bother with locks

(I am kind of a special case and acknowledge my sarcasm, but the fact is the open door strategy works in some circumstances)

another analogy is ensuring your neighbors are on somewhat equal footing with yourself so that they have no need to break into your house - especially to clean your toilets for you at below living wages

[Abq_Sarah]

195. I'm not a supporter

Of people violating the law to come here and then violating it by staying here.

I'm a small business owner and I've experienced first hand what happens when you have to compete against people who don't bother following laws. The average wage in many industries has dropped because of people who are willing to work for whatever they can get. It has a direct impact on our ability to make money and pay our employees decent wages.

As long as we have the attitude that anyone can come here at any time, break our laws and be rewarded, people will continue to come. Remember the last amnesty that was supposed to "fix" the problem? At what point do you say enough!?

We seem to be the only country in the world condemned for setting immigration targets and enforcing our own laws. I wonder why that is.

[napi21]

115. Are you sure the people you're talking about realy WANT to stay here?

I got the feeling that the come here for jobs, but still love their home country. Several people I worked with had green cards and they would work here for a while then return to their home in Mexico. They were non-degreed workers. I also worked with a chemist who had a green card and absolutely no desire to ever ecome a citizen. He & his wife were from India. They had a daughter here, owned a nice house & car. We became good friends and he told me the only beneit he doesnt have is the ability to vote and that didn't matter to him.

[Oregone]

123. Create a legal channel and we will know soon enough

Thats not a sufficient argument against giving them an option (that they wouldn't take it)

[kctim]

117. Which could all be avoided

by simply following the law and entering the country lawfully. By doing so, they would be Americans and how these elite you speak of view them, would be irrelevent.

They can work for decades as Americans. They can break their bodies as Americans. The can contribute to the economy as Americans. This would give them the same rights and protections of every other American citizen.

[Oregone]

127. Which would all be great if the current system could efficiently process legal immigrants and fulfil...

labor demand in doing so. It can't. Its not meant to do this. It is most assuredly broken

[kctim]

119. Which all could be avoided

by simply following the law and entering the country lawfully. By doing so, they would be Americans and how these elite you speak of view them, would be irrelevent.

They can work for decades as Americans. They can break their bodies as Americans. The can contribute to the economy as Americans. This would give them the same rights and protections of every other American citizen.

[Kali]

26. bullshit - "It's not that difficult to get a visa."

you do not know what you are talking about

[Skip Intro]

34. I agree.

[Fleshdancer]

60. do you know what is needed to get a green card?

How does a poor person across the border obtain an immigrant visa without being sponsored by an employer or a family member who is a US citizen? What is the wait? How much does it cost? Is an interview required? A DNA test and/or a physical?

I look forward to your answer.

[Kali]

120. crickets

good questions, by the way :thumbsup:

[X_Digger]

141. Should the police not come when an illegal calls?

How about the fire department? Should they not put out fires, if no other structures are involved? Ambulances?

[Bluebear]

180. "It's not that difficult to get a visa." - On your planet maybe.

[Better Believe It]

4. Why not? Just change the law and make them all legal. I don't have a problem with that.

[el_bryanto]

7. Doesn't that reward their illegal behavior?

Or am I missing something?

Bryant

[Oregone]

12. Doesn't the alternative punish gifted and promising children?

Reward their illegal behavior? How about rewarding their work and contributions to economic activity? Maybe their behaviors shouldn't be illegal in the first place.

[el_bryanto]

18. Are they in the country illegally? Yes

Does their being in this country illegally pose problems (not the least of which is that they are easily victimized by predatory corporations and gangs alike)? Yes.

Should we abandon legal immigration and just allow anybody who gets to american soil a free pass to stay as long as they want? That's insane.

Should we simplify the process of illegal immigration to accomodate those who want to come here legally? Yes we should have done that a long time ago.

Bryant

[Oregone]

21. Depends....you going by de facto laws?

Authorities have allowed this to progress for years, in order to benefit the rich. They are cheap laborers that have no benefits (much like slaves). The only thing better than this racket is a guest worker program.

[el_bryanto]

25. By which you mean a poorly run corrupt worker program

obviously a well run well organized guest worker program might well be a step up.

Bryant

[Oregone]

32. "a well run well organized guest worker program might well be a step up"

Hm. Not in my opinion. Not if it doesn't allow a path to citizenship or alternative mobility options. Thats just institutionalized slave importation.

[el_bryanto]

39. What are alternative mobility options?

Bryant

[Oregone]

40. Not sure...Im open to ideas if you got any

But just importing and deporting cheap seasonal labor, without offering them a social safety net or path to become citizens, is just shitty slave-like policy meant to scratch the back of big-ag.


These are real humans. They are not machines or farm tools, to be used up and disposed of.

[el_bryanto]

48. All workers are human beings

When I was in college i looked at going up to alaska to work in a cannery. It would have been 8 hours a day 6 days a week if I remember (which was fine because you were in alaska - there was nothing to do anyway), but the compensation was quite good. I turned it down because it looked miserable, but I had friends who took them up on it. They made the calculation that giving up 3 and a half months to do this was beneficial to them.

Your also assuming that they would want a path to citizenship; if they want that path let them go thruogh the regular channels to immigrate (which, as I said above, need to be simplified and made easier). If they just want to work and earn some extra money - well so long as they have a minimum safety net (provided by their employers), why not?

Bryant

[Oregone]

62. "Your also assuming that they would want a path to citizenship"

Crazy assumption, eh? Brown people wouldn't want that or something?

Yes, Id like to think any laborer who contributes to country & economy they live in would want to integrate and benefit from the very fruits of their labor. Maybe Im wildly off base....but I don't think so.

[el_bryanto]

67. You can't imagine someone wanting to work in the US for a couple of years

earn a nest egg, and then go back home to Mexico?

That doesn't seem that hard to imagine to me.

Mexico may not be quite as awful as you think it is.

Bryant

[Oregone]

74. Well, give them the option at least and let them decide

As long as its all through legal channels, no sweat off anyone else's back.

You are bringing up a rare scenario to argue against the idea of allowing *necessary* but lower class laborers a path to citizenship. Sorta odd.

[el_bryanto]

78. No - i am arguing that we use the mechanism in place

After fixing it and simplifying it. We have an immigration policy right now - it's just broken. It needs to be fixed. once that channel works, than that should be the way people who want to live here permenantly should travel.

Bryant

[Oregone]

82. Fixing it by allowing labor demand to be legally met?

And by ensuring such immigrants aren't virtual slaves, but potential citizens?

[el_bryanto]

84. Exactly - two paths

If you want to be a citizen - apply for citizenship.

If you just want to work - apply for some sort of fairly administered guest worker program.

I think that if you are in the guest worker program for a while, decide you want to stay, your years of service should get you some advantage in applying for citizenship, but that you then have to go through the process of applying for citizenship.

Bryant

[Oregone]

89. Ah....so you want to import cheap labor when you need it and ship em back when all used up?

"apply for citizenship" if you are a wealthy and skilled professional we need, who we will take care of

"apply for some sort of fairly administered guest worker program" if you are a poor laborer we need, but don't want to take care of at all

Hey...this is big-Ags wet-dream. Way to go.

[el_bryanto]

93. Perhaps I am expecting too much out of you

But I would have thought that "fairly administered" was pretty clear.

I also don't know what you mean by taken care of - if by that you mean social services, well, if they are in the country legally they should have access to those services, whether citizen or guest worker.

Also I would assume that fairly adminstered keeps big agriculture out of their current abusive practices. They will have to provide a living wage of some kind; not starvation wages.

Bryant

[Oregone]

98. "if by that you mean social services, well, if they are in the country legally..."

Great, so then you will give them Social Security and Medicare after all their hard work, and let them pull tax free from their 401Ks, and let their children get college aid?




.....and if so...why not just allow em to be citizens?

[el_bryanto]

107. Nope - no social security or medicare

They can get 401ks through their employers if they offer it. I would guess that children born in the US under this program could apply for college aid? I guess I'm imagining if they want to stay here that long they should probably apply for citizenship.

If they want Social Security and Medicare and all the privileges and duties of American Citizenship, let them apply for citizenship - which, once again, I think should be easier to obtain that it currently is.

Bryant

[Oregone]

116. Yep....poor importable slaves don't deserve that.

Ship em back out when we are done with their wrinkly, broken bodies!

[el_bryanto]

125. You really are determined not to understand aren't you?

If a guest worker is here legally he is here under the law and therefor entitled to the laws protection; i.e. he isn't a slave but an employee. If he feels like the guest worker program isn't serving his interests he doesn't have to sign up for it.

Right now all over the world there are people working for American capitalism, particularly in south east asia and china - they don't happen to be within our borders, but they supporting our economy. Do we have a moral reponsibility towards their wrinkly broken bodies?

Bryant

[Oregone]

134. What a load of crap

"he isn't a slave but an employee"

There is a fine line between employee and slave in a capitalistic economy....and most of what separates that is socialized intervention on behalf of the government (including Medicare and Social Security). You essentially want a class of laborers that exist below the standard level, and receive less social benefits from the government. These are second class citizens and a step back-wards from economic emancipation.


"but they supporting our economy. Do we have a moral responsibility towards their wrinkly broken bodies?"

Id like to think so, yes. Not legally, no, because its outside the jurisdiction of the US. But the US can definitely influence their well-being by creating trade agreements that protect workers rights and require safety nets to be provided.

[el_bryanto]

137. In fairness I don't they should pay Income tax or payroll tax either

If they want to be part of society and take on them the privilages and the duties of citizenship, let them apply for citizenship.

In your mind does citizenship involve any duties?

Bryant

[Oregone]

143. "In your mind does citizenship involve any duties"

Other than paying ones taxes to fund the services you receive, according to your ability, no. But I think non-citizens should have to do the same...so basically....no. Citizens don't have duty, but they manifest themselves by their contributions to their country, as their country inspires them to (and the "better" the country, the more inspirational manifestations you will see).


"If they want to be part of society and take on them the privileges and the duties of citizenship, let them apply for citizenship"

They are just second class humans, and the government will be ok keeping them that way. There is no reason to give a productive laborer with limited benefits and rights citizenship once they are already complacent and working. Thats how this would pan out.

Unless this magic guest worker program had a fast-trek there, that jumped them through many hoops and fees (that they would undoubtedly already be jumping through to get into the program in the first place), then Id most assuredly be against it. There is no reason to bottleneck productive, law-abiding laborers that are already contributing to a country.

[el_bryanto]

146. Again we come back to the central premise

Under a capitalist system any guest worker program will be corrupted by capitalism. American Agribusiness isn't going to give up the right to abuse workers, so any attempt to make them legal will be undercut by Agribusiness.

We have a duty to provide full citizenship rights to anybody who makes it to American Soil in order to protect them from American Capitalism. Without full citizenship rights they will be abused.

I'm sorry, I just don't see things that way.

Bryant

[Mike K]

159. One who migrates as a guest worker is not a slave.

In case you don't know what slavery is, ask an African American. Their forebears didn't apply for permission to come here and work for a wage. And once they got here they weren't able to return home if they wished to.

A guest worker program is neither a good idea nor a bad idea. It is an expediency. The only reason it might seem like slavery to you now is because there are no effective laws governing conditions affecting guest workers. A guest worker program should not allow the kind of exploitation that presently exists in many areas.

[Oregone]

199. More reasons its like slavery...

It treats the laborers like dispensable machines to be done away with when finished with. It creates a 2nd class human in the American society with less benefits and rights than the normal citizen, and no right to stay. Maybe we will be lucky enough to ensure they get their own water fountains and bathrooms.

[Better Believe It]

36. How does that compare to Congress rewarding the illegal behavior of Wall Street and

corporate America in general?

The so-called "illegal" workers are contributing to our society and are not responsible for the attacks on the living standards of "citizens". 100% wealthy "American citizens" control the wealth and politics of the United States and are totally responsible for this economic crisis.

Want to deport someone or put them in jail? Start with them. We should give the "illegals" amnesty. They haven't hurt me or committed any crimes against working people!

Targeting minorities, in this case "illegals", is an old racist tactic designed to divert attention away from the people who are really tearing this country down, the Wall Street and corporate tycoons. The rich always scapegoat others when they run into trouble.

And the right-wing and neo-fascist organizations encourage and benefit from that scapegoating.

It's not just happening here. The flames of anti-immigrant hysteria are being whipped up all over Europe. Recognize it for what it really is and what it represents.

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kali]

37. reward illegal behavior?

maybe it gives hard working, desperately poor, economic refuges a chance to better themselves, their communities, and this country all at the same time:think:

sounds like a better "rewarding of 'illegal' behavior" than how we dealt with boosh et al or the banksters - and a lot cheaper in terms of lives lost and money spent.

[Mike K]

63. Then who's next?

Every impoverished Haitian, Rwandan, Ethopian, Salvadoran, Guatamalan, Chechnyan, and on and on?

You apparently assign no value to your citizenship that you wish to give it away so easily. This nation's economy is already on the brink of collapse. How many bottom-feeders do you suppose we have the capacity to sustain?

Have you taken any homeless illegals into your home? Or invited them to pitch tents on your lawn? I doubt it.

[Kali]

87. "Have you taken any homeless illegals into your home? Or invited them to pitch tents on your lawn?"

Uh, you MIGHT want to search on some of my posts regarding migrants I have "encountered" before you step into that pile.

bottom feeders...nice
enjoy your stay

[Mike K]

145. Let's see some details.

And I'm not interested in migrants you've "encountered." How many have you taken into your home and demonstrated real Christian charity toward?

[Kali]

155. eh, you have no clue about me or what you are talking about

you can search if you like, I've taken care of a number of migrants - enough that I don't remember the number - more than ten, less than 100, I guess.

you believing me is not important, but the fact that you tried to pull this line of attack was kind of funny considering that I HAVE taken them in.

oh, my charity is Atheist charity

bye:hi:

[Mike K]

160. So you claim.

And who are you? Saint Paul?

[Flaneur]

111. Bottom feeders? These people come here to work.

[Mike K]

138. Bottom feeders? Yes.

Who do you think are coming here, the Mexican elite?

And how many jobs would you say are available for every illegal bottom-feeder from every impoverished country in the world who wishes to come here?

And where are they all going to live? Are you willing to take some of them into your home? Or will you at least allow them to pitch tents on your lawn and feed them if they can't find any work -- and maybe pay for their medical and/or maternity care?

Or are you just talking?

[hughee99]

177. Why not make them CITIZENS?

They live here, why shouldn't they have a voice in how the country is run?

[Mike K]

183. Suppose some poor homeless wretch climbs in your window

while you're out and when you come home he refuses to leave because he now lives there and should have an opinion on what's for dinner?

[hughee99]

190. If the poster I was replying to has no issues making them legal,

why would he or she have any objections to making them citizens?

[Freddie Stubbs]

5. Yes, but their home country should foot the bill

[Kali]

58. you know, this is actually an interesting idea

I know you are just being snarky, but flesh this out a little more...it might be a small part of a bigger solution.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

77. Maybe... IF the person goes back to "their home country" after graduating.

Otherwise, how did the "home country" benefit?

[Upton]

8. No way...

when did it become okay to reward someone for breaking the law?

[Oregone]

16. A ton of black people broke the law in the 60s. Damn government rewarded them with civil rights.

"There are two types of laws: just and unjust....."

[Upton]

23. They were REAL citizens

something the illegals are not. They've broken our laws....they should be treated accordingly.

[Oregone]

28. According to what document?

Depending on where you look, they were only 3/5ths of a real citizen


So when citizens break the law, its ok to reward them? Thats the main difference from being born on one side of a line or the other?

[Upton]

44. We have a struggling economy

millions out of work...we don't need a bunch of illegals here competing for jobs and raking in government aid..

They want to immigrate to this country..let them do it the LEGAL way.

[Oregone]

46. The legal avenue supplies insufficient labor to meet agricultural demand

The legal avenue needs to be changed. You are arguing from a corner that depends on a broken system.

[Upton]

59. I see...

is this another one of those.."illegals only work jobs Americans refuse to do" arguments? I'm not going for it.

Make it a serious crime to hire illegals. It will force the agricultural industry to pay a livable wage to attract American workers. In this economy, they'll get all the pickers and so forth they need..

[Oregone]

100. Thats a separate argument

And while I agree with doing that, the immigration system should still allow the supplementation of labor if demand is not met. You really need to do both.



Only an insane immigration & labor policy would ultimately not aim to provide the necessary workforce if it was within their control to do so.

[Mike K]

170. You are quite right.

What is needed is a sensible and viable guest worker program which provides for decent working conditions and a minimum wage.

[Oregone]

197. Ah. A 2nd class human program

Give us your work and piss the fuck off program

[Flaneur]

112. Raking in government aid? Show me.

[11 Bravo]

102. In the 60's they were still considered 3/5 of a real citizen? Fuck, I must have slept through ...

more of high school than I realized. But I will complement you on being a remarkable constructor of straw men. Are you a professional, or merely a gifted amateur?

[Oregone]

104. Yes, in the 60s

1860s....


Gifted...just gifted.


Im being funny...pointing out how unjust law has been at times to those who base their arguments on nothing but law

[11 Bravo]

122. Aaaah, ya made me laugh, ya bastard!

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

11. Passive-aggressive continuation-of-other-thread push-poll FAIL.

By the way, when the inevitable lock comes, I participated in it, mmmkay? Wanted you to know that.

[pinboy3niner]

15. Ditto. IBTL. nt

[racaulk]

42. Not surprising, considering the OP. n/t

[blondeatlast]

92. From LoZoccolo? No way.

Left or right doesn't matter, LZ just lives to disrupt.

[racaulk]

130. And did you notice that he hasn't made a single reply in this thread?

That's also very typical of LZ.

:eyes:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

14. Yes.

Illegal immigrants should be given amnesty. Those with the skills and desire to go to college should be afforded the opportunity to do so.

[Oregone]

19. I disagree. They exist to work cheaply, and go home without any safety net when we say so

They are better than slaves, because you don't have to pay for their housing

[Elder Hippie]

17. We must push for a living wage FIRST!

Sorry, I don't mean to hijack your thread, but it seems to me that we must URGENTLY push for these people to be paid minimum wage. THAT is way more important than college aid.

These people are HUMAN BEINGS and right now they are little more than slaves. I see businesses who hire illegals just because they don't have to pay them much as being just like the plantation owners in the south who owned slaves.

MINIMUM WAGE FOR ALL!

ANYTHING LESS IS SLAVERY!

[LanternWaste]

27. As I don't believe that anyone's education should be predicated...

As I don't believe that anyone's education should be predicated on imaginary border lines, I'll go for the Yes vote.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

33. Yes, support the dream act

http://dreamact.info/

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

41. Orrin "Blow Up Your Computer" Hatch is behind this???

Pinch me. :wow:

[Zywiec]

47. Only after government money has been spent for citizens

My daughter is in college and we got zero!

[Oregone]

50. You should of been more poor or she should of gotten better grades

This poll is in response to an immigrant who got a 4.09 GPA in high school, who was denied aid.

[amandabeech]

56. Maybe Canada could take her.

You have excellent universities up there and she is an excellent student.

[Oregone]

80. I went to school in the states so I don't know

It is cheaper in Canada...that's for sure.

I was very poor and had a higher GPA than this girl in question, so my education at a private university was mostly paid for.

My kids will be able to pick schools in either country with dual citizenship. They won the lottery, when they were born, on a technicality about lines drawn on a map.

[Better Believe It]

53. So you're saying that if your daughter was here illegally that would guarantee help?

Well, tell me exactly how that works.

You know, the exact government regulations along with credible links.

Thanks.

[Zywiec]

83. Was there a misunderstanding?

Here was the question: "Should illegal immigrants be eligible for government-sponsored college aid?"

My answer was: "Only after government money has been spent for citizens"

If we have so much money to give out for college, let's give it to the citizens first, and then anyone else that may need it.

Is that hard to understand?

:shrug:

[Oregone]

90. It is that hard to understand

It doesn't address the question of why this person is illegal or if they should be in the first place. If their legal status changed, this entire debate would be moot.

[Better Believe It]

164. Fair enough. The answer is there is plenty of money for all who want to attend college.

I assume you're talking about college loans. And now that the government rather than a 3rd profit making business in not making those loans, more money is available on better terms.

Don't be hoodwinked by those elements who pretend that we barely have enough money for "citizens" benefits, much less anyone else.

The problem is not deficits and lack of money for college help and other government assistance for working people.

The problem is that less than 1% of this nations population now controls more than 50% of the nations wealth!

And our small slice of the pie will be made even smaller with lower wages, fewer job benefits, mandatory private health insurance and big cuts next year in social security, Medicare and Medicaid.

We're suppose to get mad at and all bent out of shape about undocumented workers while the rich line their pockets and celebrate at our expense!

[Mike K]

55. Anyone who believes that illegal immigrants should be

entitled to government aid should take an illegal into his home as a permanent guest -- or shut the hell up with that pious nonsense. Any form of U.S. Government aid should be reserved for citizen of the U.S. And there is a legal way to attain that citizenship.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

61. Sigh II, the Sequel.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=8330937#8331069

[pinboy3niner]

69. I don't think you're psychic, either. Prescient, maybe. But not psychic.

You kill me! :rofl:

[Upton]

66. Agree 100%..

[harun]

73. Plenty of people do, as house keepers and care givers.

Just because you don't show compassion to non-citizen humans doesn't mean others don't.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

76. I would much much MUCH rather have a 4.09 GPA college freshman in my house than Mr. K. -nt

[Mike K]

144. I'm not talking about those who are financially able to bring an

illegal into their home to function as a live-in servant. I'm talking about ordinary people who invite illegal immigrants into their homes for no reason other than Christian kindness. Are you one of those people? If not, how many to you know?

Somehow I don't think you are one and I strongly doubt that you know any.

[MODem75]

71. Yes.

[lumberjack_jeff]

72. Government aid for illegal residents should be limited to;

a) acute medical care
b) k-12 education
c) public safety (police and fire)

[grantcart]

75. How about a poll for allowing children of illegal immigrants who have been here for 10

years or more to be allowed to apply for citizenship when they are 18?

[Oregone]

85. Because we like simple black and white debates

My initial reaction is that perhaps this person shouldn't be "illegal" in the first place...but thats too complex apparently

[Deep13]

91. Sounds reasonable. nt

[Unvanguard]

131. Then people would think of them as actual human beings and not dirty Mexican criminals

and we wouldn't want that, would we? :eyes:

[Mike K]

158. You are presuming that everyone who understands

the ultimate consequences of permissive immigration policies thinks of illegal immigrants as dirty criminals. While some are criminals most are simply unfortunate. But the world is filled with unfortunates, which is what you and I would be were it not for borders and immigration laws. I don't think of illegal immigrants as dirty criminals. I think of them as illegal immigrants whose presence here is potentially detrimental.

If I wish to migrate to Denmark, which I am giving thought to, there are steps to be taken. I don't just get on a boat and go there, or sneak across the border. So why should U.S. immigration policy be any different?

My grandparents migrated here from Holland and Germany -- after first applying for permission. When they got here they were sequestered at Ellis Island for several days, where they were interviewed and examined for diseases. Dozens of others were sent back because they had TB or other conditions. My maternal grandmother was quarantined at Ellis for eight days in a crowded ward because she had contracted influenza on the ship.

After discharge from Ellis Island they were given applications for citizenship, one requirement for which was learning sufficient English to accommodate their basic needs. After several months, and upon proving the ability to financially care for themselves, they were given a test and finally sworn in as citizens.

Quite a few who came here were sent back for one reason or other, typically being arrested for crimes or vagrancy. So there is nothing really new about the "new" Arizona law. It is simply a sad but expedient reality.

A boat can only hold so many passengers, then it sinks.

[Unvanguard]

171. So what are the terrible consequences of educating other people?

That costs money, too, right? And takes up space and resources. And the boat can only hold so many.

Maybe only the rich white people should have access to education. That would solve all our problems!

[Mike K]

148. It's a nice thought.

But it's also incentive to jump the fence.

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blondeatlast]

132. Tex Payer money? Well,,Tex doesn't need to pay for their education--but I don't mind

doing so through my taxes.

You guys just get better and better.

[DevonRex]

86. If they were brought here as children and have called the US home

for years, they should be allowed US citizenship. As kids they had no choice about where their parents moved.

[Oregone]

96. Your value as a human is directly dependent on what dirt your ass hits on your way out the vagina

[DevonRex]

124. It's insane, isn't it? And, it also seems to depend on whom you love.

[blondeatlast]

129. That's a great assessment of the attitude of some here. And they will tie themselves in knots

denying it, but at its heart, that's what matters to them.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

142. ...while gnashing their teeth at the fact that those who WERE born in the US ARE citizens, period.

And deriding the Constitution for giving them dirty Mexicans citizenship just because they're born here.

[pampango]

150. Damn, that is well said!

Of course, as a progressive, I have to make clear that everyone has equal value regardless of race, gender, or sexual orientation as those are all birth characteristics over which one has no control and should have no effect on one's "value".

I think you'll agree that one's choice of "what dirt your ass hits on your way out the vagina" is more a matter of "personal responsibility" ("you live with the choices you make in life") and, as such, should affect one's "value". ;) I chose to be born in the US. I think that reflects highly on my wisdom. It is natural that I be valued more than someone who does not display the same "wisdom" as I did.

[Mike K]

173. Once again, you're right.

Some people are born tall and some are short. Life can be beautiful and it can be cruel.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

185. So it's OK to deny somebody a college loan if they're short? -nt

[CBR]

205. +1 Exactly!!!! nt

[racaulk]

208. Yes!

That certainly seems to sum up nicely the rationale of some posting in this thread. :thumbsup:

[treestar]

94. Yes, if they were brought here as kids

They had no say in their presence here.

I think they should just get to be legalized if they are here illegally because they were brought here as kids.

They didn't make the decision to come illegally.

[HereSince1628]

109. Yes, I think This is a really hard on kids...I couldn't blame a child for a parent's

decision, and it's unconscionable to expect, and actually demand, that a minor child refuse to follow migrating parent(s) so that they don't become "illegal."

[lynne]

99. NO. eom

[HereSince1628]

101. Sure, as soon as they get naturalized...

I'm not suggesting that 25+ year old adults with "interrupted" access to college don't go back and get degress, but I think that the children of illegal immigrants really get punished for a problem that they didn't create. How exactly does a minor child choose to not follow their parents migration? Really?

Majority for many states is 21 years old. 18 year olds need access to college. There ought to be a decent path into citizenship AND access to the benefits of citizenship. I'd have no problem at all with the child of an illegal coming forward and in return for getting amnesty for any immigration issue, enroll in a program that puts them on the path to naturalization and college support. A college educated person is going to give a LOT more to this country than someone sent back to the bajada.

[tammywammy]

110. There's not enough aid for US citizens,. n/t

[slackmaster]

114. Qualified "Yes"

Academically qualified illegal immigrants should be eligible to apply for college aid that's left over after all qualified legal residents have gotten theirs, provided that they also start the legal naturalization process.

[X_Digger]

121. If education ever becomes a right, then yes, aliens will be eligible.

See Plyer v Doe

A State can't deny services to those in their jurisdictions based on residency status.

“The illegal aliens who are plaintiffs in these cases challenging the statute may
claim the benefit of the Equal Protection Clause, which provides that no State
shall ‘deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.’
Whatever his status under the immigration laws, an alien is a ‘person’ in any
ordinary sense of that term… The undocumented status of these children vel non
does not establish a sufficient rational basis for denying them benefits that the
State affords other residents.”

This was a case about a Texas law denying public education to illegal immigrants, or making them pay a fine, and was struck down.

[Unvanguard]

128. Yes, absolutely, and blaming children for their parents' behavior is reprehensible.

It's a basic issue of human rights and equal opportunity: everyone deserves the chance at a decent education.

[MellowDem]

133. I expect when I go to Mexico...

(or any other country) illegally I shall be treated as a full citizen, and be given the benefits that any other citizen can get, cause I'm human! Not illegal! :rofl:

The thing about open borders is that for it to work, it has to be two-way, or else it will just be taken advantage of by coporations. Until there is a one world government, good luck having open borders!

[Oregone]

136. What if Mexican companies invite you and *need* you to be there to work for decades for the country?

[MellowDem]

149. They don't "need", they "want" illegal immigrants

because they want cheap labor. If they aren't illegal, they don't want them any more or less than anyone else. So if there was open borders, and I essentially became a Mexican citizen upon entering Mexico, it would make me no different from the other unemployed Mexicans. But those same companies are eyeing China right now, because they work for even less! If they could, they would ship desperate illegal Chinese to Mexico to work in their factories so they don't have to pay to move the factories over there.

Legalizing all the illegal immigrants here is just a temporary salve that doesn't even adress the main problem. It's exploitation of labor and the poor, whether legal or illegal. Illegal immigrants are just easier to exploit. But even if everyone here was "legal", it would allow companies to just import incredibly cheap labor. Hell, I can see companies paying for thousands of poor people's trips to the US to work in sweatshops and factory towns in the US! If you don't have very strong labor laws or don't enforce them, open borders is just a return to libertarian labor capitalism. And if other nations don't have strong labor standards etc. etc., then open borders won't work at all.

[BellaLuna]

140. The real answer is somewhere in the middle there

It depends on the circumstances of the student. A blanket yes or no makes no sense without knowing the history of the student.

I'd rather see a high achieving undocumented person get assistance before some privileged low achiever who is only in school because his parents expect him to be.

[ceile]

147. Nice flamebait.

:eyes:

[profile this]

151. Why

Why do they call us "dirty" mexicans? All the mexicans I know shower everyday.

[Kali]

198. walking across 50 or 100 miles of desert makes one dusty?

or maybe it has to do with field work all day long

also brown = dirt, at least in childish crayon drawings - sort of like the fantasy world some of the people in this thread apparently live in.

Just "get" some paperwork and "be" legal then all will be ok...except for many of the real and imaginary problems that are also thrown up as excuses to dehumanize poor people are still there whether they have papers or not even if it was so fantastically EASY to just get papers.

[profile this]

209. If you ask me

That's something to be proud of. Walking through the desert for a better life and working in the fields to feed their families.
There is no shame in that.

[SargeUNN]

152. Just pass the DREAM ACT

the Dream Act is a perfect example of how we can do this and help our nation resolve some of the illegal immigration problems. The Dream Act requires them to complete their education at above acceptable levels in a timely fashion as well as keeping within the laws of the land. It is one part of real resolution of the problem in a way that we in this nation will benefit and keep talented people who will contribute to our nation.

[Mike K]

169. And where are all these schools and teachers coming from?

Not to mention the cost of sustaining all these students.

And not to mention all the existing American citizens who will be pushed aside to accommodate the beneficiaries of the Dream Act.

I respectfully suggest you re-name this the Pipe-Dream Act.

[SargeUNN]

179. You show your lack of knowledge of the Dream Act learn about it

http://dreamact.info and then get back to me when you know more.

[SargeUNN]

157. to be honest this poll is bad

it really doesn't have enough depth to it and leaves out such real solutions as the Dream Act. The one who started it really needs to have more knowledge of the situation before starting it, so I didn't vote on it. It is goofy.

[Forkboy]

161. "The one who started it really needs to have more knowledge of the situation before starting it"

That applies to all his posts. :)

[Forkboy]

162. Looks like you're gonna need another mod appreciation thread soon.

[mmonk]

165. I'm going to go against the flow here.

There have been immigrant children in my city that have been here since they were 3 or 4. Basically, this city, state, and country have been the only home they have known since before they can remember. They have gone completely through the school system and played by the rules (the status of their parents noted). They have made good grades and been involved in school activities. I don't think they should be punished. Just my two cents.

[Better Believe It]

166. Support undocumented immigrants, not the Wall Street and corporate crooks responsible for the crisis

Undocumented workers didn't fire us, send us to war, got trillion dollar taxpayer bailouts, export millions of jobs to cheap labor nations, destroy 8 million jobs, deny us medical care or played casino capitalism with our pension money.

100% certified U.S. citizens did that to us!

[Name removed]

176. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blondeatlast]

178. I admire your tenacity--but really, don't you have anything better to do?

And do you have any idea of what your avatar really means in regard to DU, because I remember it very, very well--my avatar WAS removed?

[Name removed]

181. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

189. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bluebear]

192. "An illegal!!!" "Their country!!!!1'" --- yeehaw, what a progressive soul

[Name removed]

182. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Biker13]

187. A Resounding No!

[Jenny_D]

188. I voted no, but...

I think a child who has been here a number of years, grew up attending American schools, graduated from an American high school with a decent GPA and has no criminal record should have an expedited path to citizenship when he/she reaches the age of 18.

[ismnotwasm]

191. Sure

It they are to the point of college I think anyone should get a shot. In addition, open up avenues of citizenship for the college bound with additional visas and help them out. It would pay off in the long run if not the short.


I like that idea than certain others, such as laws promoting and legitimizing racism and/or paying out the ass for useless fucked up wars.

[Catherina]

194. Should America be destroying the economies of other countries

and continue to let its citizens reap the benefits of that dishonesty?

I forgot. We're "special". We get to steal, kidnap and kill with impunity and then hide behind walls to enjoy the loot.
NAFTA deliberately killed the Mexican corn industry. Where's the sense of responsibility? Where's the outrage over their righteous claim that "¡Sin maíz no hay país!”

90 of maquiladoras are owned by US Fortune 500 corporations that displace Mexican citizens and force them to work for slave wages without benefits or labor unions. Where's the outrage?

Sure, keep blaming the victims of US economics run amuck. Make it out like it's their fault they need to leave their country after our corporations trash their livelyhoods.

This thread is sad.



excerpts from articles)

February 1, 2008
200,000 protestors take to the streets in Mexico City to protest NAFTA
Rally organizers for the march from the Angel of Independence to the Zocalo estimated that more than 200,000 people took part to demand that the Agricultural Chapter of NAFTA be renegotiated. Marchers also demanded that the privatization of the energy sector be halted, and that the new Social Security law be repealed

http://www.commonfrontiers.ca/Gallery/Mexico%20City%20March/index.htm

Protest Against US Agricultural Giants Destroying Mexican Workers

[proteus_lives]

200. No.

[Owl]

201. No.

[-..__...]

203. No.

A few years back in the MA legislature, a bill was filed that would have granted in-state tuition fees at state universities for illegal aliens.

Backers/supporters believed that passage of the bill was a near certainty... in fact, it almost did look that way.

Taxpayers, voters, legal residents of the Commonwealth (United States), were furious, so much so that the potential backlash in the next election was enough for the legislature to vote against the bill.... I know I contacted my reps to express my opinion. And should the matter be brought up again, I'll continue to oppose any such measure. The same goes for issuing a drivers license to illegals (which has
also been an objective/proposal floated around).

If they want the same benefits, entitlements, privileges as a legal resident/citizen of this country, then at least show the courtesy and respect to play by our rules.

[rollin74]

204. NO

[FLAprogressive]

207. No.