Is it possible to be pro-Union AND pro-illegal immigration?

[apples and oranges]

:shrug:

I don't think the two are compatible, but that's just me.

[Orrex]

1. I think that the answer has a lot to do with your screen name

[BrklynLiberal]

2. yes....but I am not sure the correct term is "illegal" immigration.

[apples and oranges]

4. OK. Pro-Union and pro-undocumented workers?

[Obamanaut]

29. So, if a person robs a bank has he made an undocumented withdrawal?

Illegal immigrant or illegal alien are much more accurate.

[Cant trust em]

3. I'd tend to agree.

But that's different than being pro-Union and pro-immigration reform.

[tekisui]

5. I don't think anyone is pro-illegal immigration.

People maybe pro-amnesty, or pro-immigration reform, which is not pro-illegal immigration. My problem is with a system so flawed it refuses the reality some 12 million immigrants a year. And, that in no way has a thing to doing with one's position on unions.

Everyone in the US should have the right organize, regardless of where they came from.

[Captain Hilts]

6. Folks in the trades often are. It keeps labor costs down. Construction, elder care, lawn care...nt

[tekisui]

9. You do have a point there.

[Cant trust em]

7. I was just thinking that.

Who out there thinks that our current non-system is a good thing?

You know, besides the people engaging in worker exploitation.

[treestar]

10. Exactly, if they organized together rather than allowing themselves to be

divided and conquered, things would be better.

[Upton]

11. Doesn't pro amnesty

equate to being pro illegal immigration? For if you give the millions of illegals already here amnesty, doesn't that just invite more illegal immigration?

[tekisui]

23. Not necissarily.

Any program of amnesty should be coupled with reform of the system to account for the numbers that immigrate here already.

[Buenaventura]

16. illegal is such an awkward term

unions were illegal ... still are for some

[William Z. Foster]

26. important point

Ironically, it is those who are taking the anti-immigrant position who are pro-"illegal" immigration, since it is the anti-immigrant racism and prejudice that has caused the situation.

Those of us arguing for immigrant rights want to end the "illegal" situation.

Whenever you have a situation where millions of human beings "are illegal," there are two choices - get rid of the stupid law or get rid of human beings. That is what people are being asked to choose between.

[treestar]

8. Of course. Scapegoating the illegal immigrants is meant to divide and

conquer the workers.

Of course they could never unionize together and demand their rights. We have to just set ourselves up as more deserving than they are do to the place of our birth. :sarcasm:

[DatManFromNawlins]

12. Nice way to dodge the question

And by dodging, you prove the OP's point.

[treestar]

27. What is that point?

that it is impossible to have an international union? Why?

[LaydeeBug]

13. pro-illegal immigration is a loaded term, but if *I* were a union recruiter...

I'd start hiring some bi-lingual workers to help organize the influx of tired, poor and huddled masses seeking a better life. here.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

14. I am.

:shrug:

[William Z. Foster]

15. impossible to be otherwise

What sort of pro-Labor position would lead a person to call the cops on a fellow working class person?

What sort of pro-Labor position would support divide and conquer tactics used against the working class?

What sort of pro-Labor position would criminalize workers escaping low wages and moving to higher wages?

What sort of pro-Labor positions would call for punishing a sector of the working class that is organizing at a much higher rate than other sectors?

What sort of pro-Labor position would demand that the working class roll over for outsourcing of jobs?

what sort of pro-Labor position would call for giving the wealthy, the owners, freedom to cross borders to exploit workers, but deny workers freedom to cross borders to escape that?

No sort of pro-Labor position would support any of those things.

[apples and oranges]

18. Undocumented workers are exploited. They don't get health care or

a fair wage. That is the total opposite goal of a union.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

21. The goal of pro-union people should be to get them to unionize.

Are you familiar with the phrase "workers of the world unite?"

[William Z. Foster]

28. here is what surprised me

I often hear so many people say "when, oh, when will those stupid sheeple rise up and take to the streets?"

During the week that Los Angeles was seeing it's largest political demonstration in history I heard people saying that.

Why has there not been massive support from liberal and progressive people for the immigrant rights movement? It is mind-boggling.

The signs that said "give us a chance, we will show you a miracle" were poignant. Why are so many Democrats deaf to that message, to the calls to action and for resistance?

[William Z. Foster]

25. that's funny

In farm work in the Midwest, immigrants are among the few who are getting health care.

The solution to the problems of fair wages and exploitation is to organize - immigrants are doing that. Native born Americans have not been. The very topic is controversial right here among Democrats, progressives, and liberals.

Employers don't, and cannot know who is documented and who isn't. How do they know whom to exploit? In the system we have ALL workers are exploited and wages are ALWAYS being depressed. That is how the owners win - that is the only way to survive. They can hire the same people to do the same work much cheaper on the other side of the border than on this side - and that is what they are doing. Small family farms and other small businesses cannot, however, only the largest corporations and wealthiest people have that freedom.

Immigrants did not cause that system, they re fighting it harder than any other segment of the population is here. We should be thanking them for having the courage and wisdom we lack.

If immigrants were being exploited more here than they were in the home country, they would go back. Since they are by definition the most motivated, resourceful, courageous, intelligent, and ambitious people in the hemisphere, I think they have a much better idea as to what they are doing than you do. Your posts suggest otherwise. That is in and of itself invokes a racist stereotype.

Too many liberals look upon people of color as they would pets, and the way they contrast their views to the right wing views parallel the contrasting philosophies about pet treatment. Right wingers think pets should be treated with fear and discipline. Liberals think pets should be managed with love and kindness and sympathy. But in both cases, they look at people of color as though they were pets. Worse than pets, actually. No one would ever say the things about dogs and cats here that people routinely say about human beings - poor people and immigrants especially - with such relative impunity.

[Buenaventura]

20. your questions are mine …

unfortunately, i suspect that the sort of "pro-labor position" you question might be that of the AFL-CIO. not my position.

[Bluebear]

17. Nobody is "pro-illegal immigration".

Some, however, choose to support programs such as amnesty or paths-to-citizenship which don't ignore the millinos of those here who are undocumented.

[proteus_lives]

19. No, it's not.

[hunter]

22. Undocumented workers need a kick ass union and documents.

Employers who create crappy low paid working conditions for everyone by hiring undocumented workers ought to be thrown in jail, their businesses shut down, and their stock holders ruined.

What's your question?

[William Z. Foster]

31. false idea there

No one is doing that, or virtually no one.

The anti-immigrant hysteria has nothing to do with legality, and there is no reliable way to know a person's status that is consistent with the law and with the Bill of Rights. Nor do any of us want to give more power over us to employers.

The only way an employer can be free from harassment is to turn away brown job applicants. You can hire as many Eastern European farm workers as you like, and no one asks for any frigging documentation or stops them randomly on the street or "sees" any problem.

How do we know which white workers are "legal?" Perhaps they are guilty of much worse crimes in many cases than merely having paperwork that is lapsed or has not yet arrived. The only way to "catch" all criminals is to force all of us to prove that we are legal in all ways, according to and dependent upon the various police agencies - and that makes us all "guilty until proven innocent" and invites a police state.

If, among the immigrant community, there are those whose paperwork is not up to snuff, and if this justifies the things people are proposing to "solve" this "problem," then why stop there? Let's have federal paramilitary swat teams descend on all workplaces and force all employees to take drug tests on the spot. Bet we would catch a lot of people who are breaking the law all of the time that way.

"There are law breakers out there! We must do whatever it takes! All must be detained and questioned! Raid all job sites, question all people, investigate everyone! It is not human beings I am opposed to, it is illegal human beings and we know there are millions of them out there! If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear!"

Should work become a privilege, subject to authorization for each of us by Homeland Security? Should all employers become de facto agents for Homeland Security? Do you think this insanity will stop with the immigrants?

[hunter]

34. You're right.

Employers shouldn't be ICE agents.

But employers who abuse workers because they can, because their workers are fearful and afraid because of their immigration status, those employers need to be shut down hard.

We really can solve this problem by improving working conditions and pay for everyone in the lowest paying most miserable jobs, and by offering easy residency permits for anyone who finds work here.

The USA is an utter failure if we don't actually believe everyone who works contributes to the common good. If doing honest labor for a paycheck doesn't contribute to the common good then why the bloody hell is anyone working? Tell everyone to go home and shut the doors.

[William Z. Foster]

35. that is always true

"Employers who abuse workers" is always a problem, and we are all being abused to one degree or another. We need to organize, not always look to calling in the cops to solve social problems. The country is going "call in the cops" crazy right now, and that is very dangerous.

To improve pay for farm work is going to require much, much more public support and rebuilding the infrastructure, and getting the speculators and investors out of the food system. The biggest problem is that 90% or more of what consumers are paying for food does not go back to the farm and the farming communities. It goes into the pockets of Wall Street hustlers, the banks, the brokers and traders, and the marketers in the form of various giant corporations. You don't solve that by going after immigrants nor after the employers - mostly struggling small family farms - and you can't do that with CSA or organic or farmer's markets and other consumer choice models.

[blondeatlast]

24. Does the name "Cesar Chavez" ring a bell with you? nt

[OutNow]

30. Justice for Janitors

Of course you can be pro-union and pro-undocumented worker. And for those who say - well, no one is in favor of illegal immigration - I have some news for you. No worker is illegal. Workers who cross borders to escape economic deprivation are doing what they must to survive.

The SEIU is not a perfect union, but does a good job understanding the current situation. They react by organizing the unorganized. Justice for Janitors is one approach used by the SEIU. If you really want to understand the convergence of unions and immigrants this is a good place to start.

¡El pueblo unido, jamás será vencido!

[tonysam]

32. No. The latter undermine the former. n/t

[hunter]

33. That's not true.

It's unethical employers who are using undocumented workers to undermine unions.

But any fearful population of workers will serve the same purpose, citizen or not.

When the U.S. economy goes really bad, just watch, people are going to turn against people from other states.

Illegal immigration won't be a problem when there's no jobs.

It happened in the Great Depression, and it can happen again.