My driver's license required no proof of legal residence or birth certificate to obtain

[CreekDog]

I was talking about it with some friends from childhood who said they never showed one either. They did remember we had to prove we took driver's ed to get our permits. :D

For the three of us, our driver's licenses are not proof of legal residence in the United States. The largest groups at my high school were Asian (40%), White (40%), and Hispanic (15%) and this was in the late 80's.

So for us to go to Arizona, it would seem that the law will require us to carry proof of legal residence. In fact, when I float down the Salt River, I purposely don't bring any ID at all because I don't want to lose it.

But the idea that I should bring a passport or birth certificate to hang out in Arizona --or that my friends from high school should,
that's just un American.

Almost as upsetting is how many people here defend the concept of being asked for one's "papers" (to prove legality) when walking around a State in the US.

:rant:

on edit: since some are doubting that I didn't need to show proof of legal residence:

"Since March 1, 1994, new applicants for licenses have been required to present one of 20 documents - ranging from passports to birth certificates to work-authorization cards. No longer accepted for identification are easily forged foreign birth certificates, U.S. baptismal certificates or out-of-state driver licenses."

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19951203&slug=2155868

[ET Awful]

1. I honestly don't remember what I had to provide in CA, that was over 20 years ago.

BUT, in MA, all I had to do was hand them my CA license and I was good to go.

[davidinalameda]

25. not me

when I moved back to WV, they wanted everything but the kitchen sink

[Luminous Animal]

84. When I moved to California in 1979, all I had to do was surrender my

Delaware license. No birth certificate or any other ID to prove my citizenship.

[Riftaxe]

2. What state does not require proof of residence?

just interested, because for the last 20 years in various states i have always had to provide that information for a drivers license.

[CreekDog]

3. California didn't until 1994 and Arizona didn't in 1994

I've had both CA and AZ driver's licenses and neither required me to even prove who I was.

[JuniperLea]

11. It was a long time ago...

But my pterodactyl and I were asked for a birth certificate when we applied for our learner's permit when we took driver's training at Bedrock High. And when I was divorced and legally changed my name, I had to give them my divorce papers. And when I got a passport, I had to give them the driver's license, the birth certificate, and my SS card... I need to update it with my new/old name again.

[CreekDog]

14. Well, we did not and our cohorts from the late 80's and early 90's say the same

There are LOTS of people in the USA that never proved legal residence to get and keep their driver's licenses.

[JuniperLea]

23. California must be way different... very strange...

To apply for an original driver license if you are over 18, you will need to do the following:

•Visit a DMV office (make an Appointment(s) for faster service)
•Complete application form DL 44 (An original DL 44 form must be submitted. Copies will not be accepted.)
•Give a thumb print
•Have your picture taken
•Provide your social security number. It will be verified with the Social Security Administration while you are in the office.
•Verify your birth date and legal presence If your current name no longer matches the name on your birth data/legal presence document, see “True Full Name” and “How to Change Your Name” for more information.
•Provide your true full name
•Pay the application fee
•Pass a vision exam
•Pass a traffic laws and sign test. There are 36 questions on the test. You have three chances to pass.(Sample Test)

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/dl/dl_info.htm#two500

[CreekDog]

28. Those are the requirements *NOW* :o)

And back then, the DMV cared more about if you knew how to drive than if you were here legally.

[JuniperLea]

30. There must have been a gap...

As I said, I had to provide exactly the same items back in 1975. And when my kids applied for theirs, in the 80's and 90's, they needed the same items. I recall specifically getting birth certificates and SS cards from the family files for them to bring to the DMV.

[CreekDog]

35. Not in the 80's and not until March 1, 1994.

Not in the 80's and 90's. Maybe you were proving somethinng else, like age or something:

Since March 1, 1994, new applicants for licenses have been required to present one of 20 documents - ranging from passports to birth certificates to work-authorization cards. No longer accepted for identification are easily forged foreign birth certificates, U.S. baptismal certificates or out-of-state driver licenses.

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19951203&slug=2155868

[RaleighNCDUer]

36. Maybe you just don't look trustworthy.

:evilgrin:

Proof of residence is not the same as proof of citizenship. All I needed was my address on a check, and a phone bill to prove I was a NC resident. Of course, that was 15 years ago. Never been asked for more than my old license since then when getting a new one.

[pinboy3niner]

46. HI, IL, NM, UT, and WA

Under AZ driver licensing requirements, Arizona DOT, Motor Vehicle Division, identifies 5 states "that do not verify lawful presence" in the U.S.: HI, IL, NM, UT, and WA (WA verifies only for credentials labeled as "enhanced").


Arizona DOT, Motor Vehicle Division

http://mvd.azdot.gov/mvd/formsandpub/viewPDF.asp?lngProductKey=1410&lngFormInfoKey=1410

[jberryhill]

53. The AZ DOT may identify that, but

The statute doesn't refer to the AZ DOT regs, it refers to the underlying facts.

And there are broader exceptions than those listed.

[pinboy3niner]

77. AZ DOT is recognizing underlying facts

If that is what the facts are, they're good for SB 1070 as well as for DOT. AZ has already determined which states verify--which is precisely one of the criteria that is sufficient, alone, to meet SB 1070's proof of lawful presence requirement.

[jberryhill]

82. AZ DOT is not going to be enforcing SB 1070, so their determination is not controlling /nt

[pinboy3niner]

90. What "broader exceptions"?

In the case of a valid state-issued DL, the ONLY criterion is "if the entity requires proof of legal presence in the United States before issuance." Period.

[NotThisTime]

74. MA 26 years ago... supplies baptismal record and life insurance policy taken out at my birth

That was it....

[pampango]

87. New Mexico allows illegal immigrants to get drivers licenses as a public safety measure. n/t

[cbayer]

4. You didn't have to show any proof of citizenship or legal status on renewal?

Not long ago, I researched this and there was not a single state in the country issuing driver's licenses without proof of legal status or citizenship. If there is such a state, I would be very interested in knowing about it.

:hi:

[CreekDog]

12. Nope...never

In fact, I went off to school in Arizona in 1994 and got a license there. When I came back to California, they asked me for a birth certificate (that requirement started in 1994), however I did not have one (was probably in a box somewhere). Well it turns out Arizona screwed up and while I was gone my California driver's license was never cancelled. So to save me the hassle of getting my birth certificate, California DMV simply treated my return to California as a renewal.

I've never been asked by the State of California to provide proof of legal residence or birth to get or renew my driver's license.

So I asked a couple of my friends if they did --and they both said they did not.

It's not my imagination --it was simply not a requirement for us until the mid 1990's and if you had your license by then, you were grandfathered in.

[atreides1]

26. I didn't when I first got a license

But I did have to provide a birth certificate when I moved to Virginia, to change my Arizona license.

[CreekDog]

29. I got an Arizona license in '94 and didn't need proof there either

:hi:

[MgtPA]

38. PA didn't require any proof on renewal. All I needed was the old license and the form I received in

the mail from PennDOT.

[jberryhill]

56. What do you mean by "not long ago"

Some of us are old, you know.

[cbayer]

76. Over the last 4 years or so. I know for certain that there were still states 5 years

ago that did not require much more than a utility bill to prove residence. But since that time, every state has implemented some kind of requirement for proof of legal status.

That is for new licenses. I don't know much about renewals.

And yes, some of us are old!

:hi:

[cherokeeprogressive]

5. I did. Originally in 1977 and again when I moved back to CA after being gone in the Navy for 10 yrs

[arcane1]

6. I had to provide a birth certificate in VA in the 80's

It made sense at the time. How else could the state know that I'm using my real name, etc?

Plus, there your driver's license ID number is the same as your SSN. I always hated that part.

[CreekDog]

17. Because the DMV didn't care if you were a citizen or not back then

They cared more about if I passed driver's ed! :rofl:

It was a different time. And when I got my license, I had no SS card either and California unlike most states, never used the SS# on theirs.

[Riftaxe]

21. In New Hampshire currently you can opt

not to have your SSN on your drivers license, but the license number is just a random number/letter. A very good change :)

[ET Awful]

85. MA used to do that with the SSN too. Then they changed it so you could

have either a random number or your SSN, now you can no longer have your SSN as the license no.

[laconicsax]

7. Oregon just changed the rules.

http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/DMV/news/id_news.shtml

Even if you've had your driver license or ID card for years, or even decades, you must bring documents that meet new state requirements each time you renew or replace your card.

All applicants for Oregon driver licenses, instruction permits and ID cards will be required to show DMV documents that provide:

* Proof of U.S. citizenship or lawful presence in the country – such as a government-issued birth certificate or U.S. passport, or foreign passport with U.S. immigration documents. DMV will electronically verify U.S. immigration, naturalization and other U.S.-issued documents that non-citizens and naturalized citizens use to prove lawful presence in the country.
* Proof of Social Security number – such as a Social Security card, employment document or tax document. DMV will electronically verify that your Social Security number, name and birth date match the records at the Social Security Administration.
* Proof that you are not entitled to a Social Security number, if you do not have one and are not eligible for one – such as immigration documents that do not include permission to work in the United States.
* Proof of full legal name – such as birth certificate, or a combination of documents that create a link proving current full legal name, such as a birth certificate and government-issued marriage certificate.

[peace frog]

8. I've been driving for 40 years...

and I had to prove my US citizenship when I renewed the license last year. Thankfully I have a passport or I would've had to pay for a certified copy of my birth certificate and produce another form of proof of local address to be renewed. PITA.

[bik0]

9. In Ohio it requires a SS card...

That's all. It takes a birth certificate to get a SS card.

[jberryhill]

24. SS card is NOT proof of citizenship /nt

[CreekDog]

27. neither is a driver's license

and like I said, mine was granted without any such proof.

[jberryhill]

40. Correct...

As noted below the AZ law has a built-in presumption for AZ driver's licenses, and AZ driver's licenses only.

CA will not cut the mustard.

[CreekDog]

83. +1

for stating it so clearly.

[pinboy3niner]

49. In AZ, it IS presumptive proof of legal presence, IF . . .

. . . it is issued by a state that verifies legal status before issuance. According to AZ, all but five states verify legal status. Those five exceptions are: HI, IL, NM, UT, and WA.

See Post # 46.

[CreekDog]

66. then if you have one of those driver's licenses, they don't fulfill the law's requirements

will folks need a passport in that case?

or "certified" birth certificate to avoid being hauled in?

[pinboy3niner]

72. A passport would be as good as gold

An I.D. issued by a local government entity would do, IF they verify legal presence--and even then, an AZ cop probably would have to contact the issuing agency to confirm that they verify. The common "Certificate of Live Birth" should be fine, but it would be a real shame that anyone in this country would need to carry it. FEderal/military ID would be good, too.

Remember, the AZ law may never go into effect. At least five lawsuits are pending already, and the U.S. Attorney General is reviewing the law and may well end up challenging it, as well. It doesn't take effect until July 29, and the courts may stay or enjoin its implementation while lawsuits are being adjudicated.

[CreekDog]

75. A passport to visit Arizona?

f--- that.

[pinboy3niner]

80. LOLI I hear you

Passports are not specific to a destination, so it wouldn't be "for Arizona".

I think the law probably will never actually go into effect, and the courts will throw it out as unconstitutional--but there's no guarantee of that, se we end up spinning our wheels here, trying to sort it all out and pin it all down.

If you're seriously concerned about this, you might want to keep up with the Arizona Republic newspaper online. They'll be providing a LOT of info about the law and anything related to it:

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/

[CreekDog]

79. and those 5 states? people from New Mexico have to bring a bc or passport?

:wtf:

no way. noooooo wayyyyyyy.

[pinboy3niner]

92. That's how those idiots wrote the law

What they really want to do is purge the state of as many undocumented residents as possible, and intimidate the hell out of those who remain (including American citizens and legal residents who have certain types of surnames or "look" a certain way).

[no_hypocrisy]

10. To get or renew a license in NJ, you have to show 3-4 different documents,

each given a certain number of points. I think the total should be 14. Birth certificates, passports, bills that are mailed to your residence, checks with your residence stamped on them, etc.

[CreekDog]

13. You don't in California...I just renewed my license in December

I didn't have to show anything.

[cherokeeprogressive]

15. Not even your old driver's license? n/t

[CreekDog]

18. Nope, not my CA driver's license in '87, not my Arizona driver's license in '94 and not CA in '96

none of them.

in fact, see my post #12.

i have a mind like a steel trap so i actually remember this stuff pretty freaking well.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8377843&mesg_id=8377924

[slackmaster]

33. CreekDog is correct. I doubted it but checked it out.

I got my CA DL in 1976 and in fact did present a certified copy of my Kansas Certificate of Live Birth, but it was overkill.

That copy of my KS birth certificate has come in handy a few times, like when I got a passport.

[amborin]

22. i lost mine; and had to show IDs to get new one

[jberryhill]

16. A CA driver's license is Not good enough

Under the AZ statute, an AZ driver's license is presumed to be valid proof, but that's it.

No, your driver's license does not prove citizenship (as it dawned on me one night years ago at the Canadian border)

A passport is about the only photo-id which does.

[slackmaster]

32. Actually, a CA Driver License is considered to be sufficient by the state of AZ

Whether or not it actually does prove your origin is irrelevant. They accept it anyway.

http://mvd.azdot.gov/mvd/formsandpub/viewPDF.asp?lngProductKey=1410&lngFormInfoKey=1410

[jberryhill]

41. I have no idea what your link is supposed to demonstrate

The AZ "papers please" law presumes an AZ driver's license is sufficient for the purpose of that law.

There is no presumption in the AZ "papers please" law relative to the driver's licenses of any other state.

Yes, you can DRIVE there, but your license from any other state is not presumptive evidence of US citizenship for the purpose of the law under discussion here.

Your link is to the ID requirements for obtaining an AZ driver's license, and is irrelevant to what is "proof of citizenship" when you are asked to pull over and prove it.

[slackmaster]

44. I think you should read the law before commenting on it

It spells out what constitutes proof of lawful presence. AZ already had an established standard for that.

Your link is to the ID requirements for obtaining an AZ driver's license, and is irrelevant to what is "proof of citizenship" when you are asked to pull over and prove it.

You haven't read the law. It has nothing to do with proof of citizenship.

The law is bad enough as it is. Don't exaggerate it.

[jberryhill]

54. I did read it...

It says:

----
1. A valid Arizona driver license.
2. A valid Arizona nonoperating identification license.
3. A valid tribal enrollment card or other form of tribal identification.
4. If the entity requires proof of legal presence in the United States before issuance, any valid United States federal, state or local government issued identification.
----

Your point is that AZ DOT has regs relative to point 4 for the purpose of issuing an AZ driver's license.

My reasoned response is "whoop de doo" to that, since the law doesn't incorporate those AZ DOT regs, and there are more than those exceptions listed by the AZ DOT for issuing a license.

[slackmaster]

58. If you are still clinging to the absurd idea that a California DL won't be sufficient...

...to prove lawful presence in Arizona, you are either delusional or being intentionally obtuse. The topic has been discussed ad nauseum.

Good day.

[jberryhill]

64. I really don't recall making personal comments about you

The difference is simple.

You think a cop will read it in light of some state agency determination made for other purposes.

I am reading the text of the statute and telling you a cop can read it any way he wants, because the AZ DOT has not been delegated the job of interpreting this statute.

Do you understand those two things?

[pinboy3niner]

50. Sorry, that's WRONG

Under the Arizona law, a driver's license issued by AZ and 44 other states constitutes "presumptive proof" of legal presence in the United States. The five exceptions are: HI, IL, NM, UT, and WA.

See Post # 46.

[slackmaster]

51. The problem here is that people are expecting the AZ law to make logical sense

As CreekDog and others have pointed out, even a California Driver License does not necessarily prove that the holder is in the country legally RIGHT NOW. But as the law is written, Arizona will accept it as proof of lawful presence.

[pinboy3niner]

88. Ah, Slackmaster, my friend

Looks like we get to work together again on this--but I see you've already been carrying the bulk of the load, trying to inject some sanity and reason.

Apparently, some here believe that AZ is going to train all of its peace officers in all of the details of driver licensing of all 50 states, including when each state first began to verify lawful presence, and how to determine when an individual--who may have renewed his/her license umpty-ump times--first obtained an original license. I guess they COULD do that--if they wanted to suspend all criminal law enforcement and other tasks to accomodate such a massive demand on their resources.

Normally, we approach this with a great deal of patience. But does it feel like it's getting old now, the patience wearing thin?

You're solid on the law and the facts, and my hat's off to you for hanging in there as you have. Especially when we're dealing with a law that very well may never take effect, and we may just be spinning our wheels for nothing.

I haven't had a chance yet to finish reading the last of the thread, so I'm going to do that and see if I have time for more . . .

Don't :banghead: too much--we need you around here.

:toast:

[jberryhill]

52. No, That's a DOT standard for issuing driver's licenses not THIS LAW

Here is the law:

-------

For any lawful contact made by a law enforcement official or a law enforcement agency of this state or a law enforcement official or a law enforcement agency of a county, city, town or other political subdivision of this state where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States, a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of the person… A person is presumed to not be an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States if the person provides to the law enforcement officer or agency any of the following:

1. A valid Arizona driver license.
2. A valid Arizona nonoperating identification license.
3. A valid tribal enrollment card or other form of tribal identification.
4. If the entity requires proof of legal presence in the United States before issuance, any valid United States federal, state or local government issued identification.

----------

Delaware did not require that of me.

Delaware took my UTAH driver's license, oddly enough.

[slackmaster]

59. If you think the state of Arizona has a separate list of acceptable state DLs, please produce it

:hi:

[jberryhill]

61. It's a question of basic statutory interpretation, slack...

Regs don't trump statutes.

[pinboy3niner]

67. NO, it IS the Arizona standard, and your text was before amendment

Here's the actual text, as amended by House Bill 2162:

Sec. 3. Section 11‑1051, Arizona Revised Statutes, as added by Senate Bill 1070, section 2, forty-ninth legislature, second regular session, as transmitted to the governor, is amended to read:

START_STATUTE11-1051. Cooperation and assistance in enforcement of immigration laws; indemnification

A. No official or agency of this state or a county, city, town or other political subdivision of this state may limit or restrict the enforcement of federal immigration laws to less than the full extent permitted by federal law.

B. For any lawful stop, detention or arrest made by a law enforcement official or a law enforcement agency of this state or a law enforcement official or a law enforcement agency of a county, city, town or other political subdivision of this state in the enforcement of any other law or ordinance of a county, city or town or this state where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien and is unlawfully present in the United States, a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of the person, except if the determination may hinder or obstruct an investigation. Any person who is arrested shall have the person's immigration status determined before the person is released. The person's immigration status shall be verified with the federal government pursuant to 8 United States code section 1373(c). A law enforcement official or agency of this state or a county, city, town or other political subdivision of this state may not consider race, color or national origin in implementing the requirements of this subsection except to the extent permitted by the United States or Arizona Constitution. A person is presumed to not be an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States if the person provides to the law enforcement officer or agency any of the following:

1. A valid Arizona driver license.

2. A valid Arizona nonoperating identification license.

3. A valid tribal enrollment card or other form of tribal identification.

4. If the entity requires proof of legal presence in the United States before issuance, any valid United States federal, state or local government issued identification.


HB 2162
http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/hb2162c.htm

_____________________________________________________________________________

NOTE that under Item 4, a DL from a state that requires proof of legal presence is presumptive proof. The DOT provisions merely recognize which states AZ has identified as meeting that proof requirement. Since AZ has determined that 44 other states verify, they meet the the test not only for DOT purposes, but for the purposes of SB 1070 as well. They verify, which is precisely what Item 4 requires.

AS TO NUANCES of when various states actually BEGAN to verify: AZ cannot train law enforcement officers in all of those nuances. For enforcement purposes, DL's of 45 states (including AZ) have to be recognized as satisfying Item 4, while DL's of the other five identified states do not satisfy it.

So, even if your license from a verifying state was originally issued BEFORE verification began, it won't make any difference--as long as it's one of the AZ-recognized verifying states, you're good.

(Ed. to delete struck text indicated by color in original.)
__________________________________________________

[jberryhill]

78. Is there legislative history on this point

I was quoting the text after amendment. The issue with point 4 is whether your statement "not only for DOT purposes, but for the purposes of SB 1070 as well" is actually controlling. There is no reason to read the statute as if the DOT determination is controlling for the purpose of SB 1070.

[pinboy3niner]

86. Your text is pre-amendment

The way you can tell that you do not have the final text as amended by HB 2162 is to compare your opening phrase, "For any lawful contact" with my subsection B:

"B. For any lawful stop, detention or arrest . . . ", which replaced the lawful contact criterion.

Which states do/do not verify is a matter of FACT. Do you really think the enforcement agencies are going to re-do the work of DOT (which is within DOT purview) and review the driver licensing requirements of all 50 states to come up with a DIFFERENT finding of fact?

For legislative history, I suggest you contact the Legislative Council of the Arizona State Legislature.

[FarCenter]

19. Maybe they havn't caught up with you yet....

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/dl/dl_info.htm#renewbymail

Birth date verification and legal presence requirements

The issue of identification reliability, integrity, and confidentiality is of prime concern to all citizens. Eligibility for government services, issuance of various licenses, assessment of taxes, the right to vote, etc., are all determined through evaluations based on identification documents. It is critical that identification documents be authenticated and accurate in identifying each individual. The California driver license and ID card have been declared as primary identification documents in this state by the California legislature.

State law requires every applicant for an original California identification (ID) card and driver license to show verification of birth date and proof of legal presence within the United States to help safeguard the accuracy and integrity of departmental documents.

If your current name no longer matches the name on your birth date/legal presence document, see "True Full Name" and "How to Change Your Name" for more information.

Only the original or a certified copy of one of the following documents is acceptable:

•US Birth Certificate (certified copy from state or local vital statistics office)
•US Certificate of Birth Abroad or Report of Birth Abroad
•Federal Proof of Indian Blood Degree
•USCIS American Indian Card
•Birth Certificate or passport issued from a US Territory

•US Passport or US Passport Card
•US Military Identification Cards (Active or reserve duty, dependent of a military member, retired member, discharged from service, medical/religious personnel)
•Common Access Card (only if designated as Active military or Active Reserve or Active Selected Reserve)
•Certificate of Naturalization or Citizenship
•Northern Mariana Card
•USCIS US Citizen ID Card
•Permanent Resident Card
•Temporary Resident Identification Card
•Canadian Passport/Birth Certificate
•Non-resident Alien Canadian Border Crossing Card
•Valid foreign passport with a valid Record of Arrival/Departure (form I-94)
•"Processed for I-551" stamped in a valid foreign passport
•Permanent Resident Re-entry Permit
•Refugee travel document
•Certified court order or judgment issued from a court of competent jurisdiction. Must contain name, birth date, place of birth, legal presence status, and judge’s signature.
•Certification from California Department of Corrections or California Youth Authority
•Employment Authorization Card
•Valid I-94 stamped "Refugee," "Parole or Parolee," "Asylee," or Section 207, Section 208, Section 209, Section 212d(2), HP or PIP
•Valid I-94 with attached photo stamped "Processed for I-551 temporary evidence of lawful admission for permanent residence"
•Notice of Action (I-797 Approved Petition) – must indicate approved extension of stay or change in status that grants temporary or permanent residency, or indicates that an original, duplicate or renewal Resident Alien card is forthcoming.
•Immigration judge’s order granting asylum
•Mexican Border Crossing Card with valid I-94
•U.S. Border Crossing Identification card with valid I-94

[CreekDog]

20. Do you read what you post? Applicants for "original California driver's license"

next time "read" before lecturing me.

my original license was granted in 1987 prior to the requirement.

[FarCenter]

71. The link also has procedures for mail and on-line renewal

CA must have your SSN on file, and they have checked it out with the Feds.

Or you may be part of a very small group which hasn't yet had the 10 year "grace period" expire.

[slackmaster]

31. AZ doesn't really care whether or not your DL actually proves anything

Here's a list of what the state accepts, by legislative fiat and irrespective of whether or not the document has any real substance. Anything under "PRIMARY" is sufficient in the state's eyes to establish lawful presence in the USA:

http://mvd.azdot.gov/mvd/formsandpub/viewPDF.asp?lngProductKey=1410&lngFormInfoKey=1410

[CreekDog]

34. and even so, having to prove it is un-American

when you're just walking around a US State.

[Still Sensible]

37. I grew up in Arizona and had to bring a birth certificate

to get a drivers license the first time. It was not required for renewals.

[CreekDog]

45. not required for my AZ license in 1994

:hi:

[Still Sensible]

91. It was probably because I had to prove I was 16

certainly in 1971 it was a proof of age requirement, not a proof of citizenship.

[Bitwit1234]

39. WHAT state today does not require a birth certificate to get

a driver's license. Maybe 20 years ago. But I bet all states require it today. And to get and ID you need a birth certificate.

[jberryhill]

42. Plenty

Hint: not everyone with a driver's license in the US is a citizen of the US, or born in the US.

If you are here on a work visa, a student visa, etc., you can get a driver's license.

If you overstay your visa and thus become present here illegally, you will still have your driver's license.

It is perfectly possible to be illegally present in the US and have a driver's license.

[slackmaster]

47. Hawaii, Illinois, New Mexico, Utah, and Washington, according to the state of Arizona

http://mvd.azdot.gov/mvd/formsandpub/viewPDF.asp?lngProductKey=1410&lngFormInfoKey=1410

[jberryhill]

55. You have to specify "according to the state of Arizona DOT"

Because the list is broader than that, and the law doesn't incorporate the AZ DOT regulations.

Substantively, the law says what it says, without reference to anything the AZ DOT has determined (and incorrectly determined).

[slackmaster]

57. It's still clear you still haven't read SB 1070

Because you continue to misstate what it says.

[jberryhill]

63. I quoted it in this thread, slack

You think that number 4 is controlled by the AZ DOT regs.

You don't seem to understand that as a matter of basic statutory interpretation condition 4 is not trumped by the AZ DOT regs.

You have this idea that "what Arizona thinks" is summed up by any and all agencies in it. That's not how statutory interpretation works. The law states that acceptable ID is state ID where lawful presence was required as a condition.

You are reading it as if it says "as determined by the AZ DOT" tacked onto the end of it.

A finding by the AZ DOT does NOT control the reading of this statute. I understand your point better than you think I do.

[etherealtruth]

68. I was granted my first driver's license in 1978

I had to have parental consent forms signed and show proof I had passed my school sponsored driver's ed program. I have had driver's licenses in Virginia and Delaware (in the 1990's) ... I had to show my current driver's license (from my state of origin) and proof of residency (my proof: documents related to the purchase of houses). Had I not chosen to apply for an enhanced Michigan driver's license my birth certificate/ citizenship would have never been "proven."

Let me assure you ... many of us have driven for 20 years and have never shown a birth certificate.

[kiva]

43. In Colorado, 1971, I needed a birth certificate.

In fact so did my two older brothers, that puts it back to about 1964 at least.

[yodoobo]

48. Mine did

But that was a long time ago so maybe the requirements are looser now.

[Michigan-Arizona]

60. Michigan

Back many year's ago hubby & I both had to show our birth certs. to get our driver's license. When we moved to Arizona a few year's ago we had to turn in our Michigan DL(Arizona cuts off the corner to make it non usable) to get one for Arizona.

[Dappleganger]

62. Be glad you don't live in FL.

They use Real ID requirements, now. There are more people driving on the road today with expired licenses than ever before because of it.

[Lugnut]

65. I got my learner's permit in 1961.

I had to provide a copy of my birth certificate to get it here in PA.

[Fla_Democrat]

69. gathergoget.com

For me, my age, and license expiring in 2011..

Florida law requires identification, proof of date of birth, proof of residential address, and proof of social security number (if issued, Chapter 322, Florida Statutes, requires the Department see proof of social security number for the issuance of driver license and identification cards) from all customers before a driver license or identification card can be issued. The name assigned to the social security number must match the name that will appear on the Florida driver license or identification card. If you have recently changed your name, update your records with the Social Security Administration before you apply for your license or identification card.

Each U.S. citizen renewing or applying for a new driver license or identification card in person after January 1, 2010 must submit:

(You will not be required to present these document for subsequent renewals unless your information - last name, address etc - changes)

Primary Identification

Gather one original or certified copy of the following documents:

* Certified United States birth certificate, including territories and District of Columbia
* Valid United States Passport or Passport Card
* Consular Report of Birth Abroad
* Certificate of Naturalization, Form N-550 or Form N-570
* Certificate of Citizenship, Form N-560 or Form N-561



NOTES

A birth certificate must be issued by a government agency. Hospital birth certificates cannot be accepted.
Please come prepared to present one of the listed identification documents as proof of citizenship or legal presence.
When necessary, marriage certificates, court orders, or divorce decrees must be provided to tie the name on the primary identification to the name the customer would like to place on the driver license or identification card.


Proof of Social Security Number

Gather one original or certified copy of the following documents that show your social security number:

* Social Security card
in your current full name
* W-2 form
* Pay check
* SSA-1099
* Any 1099
* None - see note below

2 Proofs of Residential Address

Gather TWO different documents from the following list showing your residential address: (internet printouts or faxes of these documents are acceptable)

* Deed, mortgage, monthly mortgage statement, mortgage payment booklet or residential rental/lease agreement
* Florida Voter Registration Card
* Florida Vehicle Registration or Title
Print a duplicate registration at www.gorenew.com
* Florida Boat Registration or Title (if living on a boat/houseboat)
Print a duplicate registration at www.gorenew.com
* Two proofs of residential address from applicant's parent, step-parent, legal guardian or other person with whom the applicant resides, along with (see next)
* A statement from a parent, step-parent, legal guardian or other person with whom the applicant resides, combined with two proofs of their residential address (see above)
* A utility hook up or work order dated within 60 days of the application
* Automobile Payment Booklet
* Selective Service Card
* Medical or health card with address listed
* Current homeowner’s insurance policy or bill
* Current automobile insurance policy or bill
* Educational institution transcript forms for the current school year
* Unexpired professional license issued by a government agency in the U.S.
* W-2 form or 1099 form
* Form DS2019, Certificate of Eligibility for Exchange Visitor (J-1) status
* A letter from a homeless shelter, transitional service provider, or a half-way house verifying that they receive mail for the customer. The letter must be accompanied by the Certification of Address Form (see next)
* Certification of Address Form combined with a letter from a homeless shelter, transitional service provider, or a half-way house (see above)
* Utility bills, not more than two months old
* Mail from financial institutions; including checking, savings, or investment account statements, not more than two months old
* Mail from Federal, State, County or City government agencies (including city and county agencies)
* Transients – Sexual Offender/Predator/Career Offender: - FDLE Registration form completed by local sheriff’s department

[Tailormyst]

70. I had to show a bunch of things including my birth certificate

back in 1990.

[CreekDog]

81. i didn't, the point IS NOT that you did, the point is that not all of us did

and thus to travel to Arizona, our driver's licenses don't verify our legal residence.

a lot of states still don't require such proof.

[David Zephyr]

73. K&R.

!

[The Backlash Cometh]

89. You must not live in Florida.

It's a pain to renew your license. You have to be armed to the teeth with paperwork.