"Illegal Alien" Really?

[grantcart]

Mr. David Zephyr's well argued recent thread "Illegal Alien" set forth a clear argument on
how the term is insensitive and really not DU 'worthy'.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8371323


Much of the debate on the thread went to the semantics of the question but I think that in addition to the well articulated points that Mr. Zephyr addresses there is another substantive issue that the use of the term, and the use of the people, reflect.

The term is overflowing with cynical exploitation that is common to the right wing.

It is as cynical and exploitive as many of the other terms that reactionaries have been so successful in using to frame a debate. Once you have accepted the terms then the moral implications are right behind.

One example. Abstinence education. No abstinence and no education but it cynically exploits young people who have the misfortune to grow up under the yoke of religious guilt. Studies shows that it doesn't work. The cynicism comes from the fact that those that stomp their feet about it now were sexually active in high school and in some cases are sleeping with the woman interviewer giving them soft underhand pitches like Representative Souder did. http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0510/37411.html


I just returned from the store. I passed illegal aliens picking strawberries and once at the store I purchased illegal alien lettuce, illegal alien apples, illegal alien broccli. I stopped on the way home and had an illegal alien hamburger at a fortune 500 restaurant.


When Arizona was booming and Phoenix was the fastest growing city in the US buildings were built with illegal alien hands. Now that the times are bad the cynical power elite in Arizona wants to make a demonstration of action by passing a bill that will be laughed out of the court so that they have ammunition for their primary fights. And yet no one in Arizona is arguing that those buildings and houses that were built by illegal aliens are illegal and should be torn down. Where are the investigations by the Attorney General from the state of Arizona to deprive business the profits that they obtained from being apart of an illegal operation?

If you go to Yuma Arizona and stand at the border at 6:00 AM about 5,000 day workers will be brought in white busses (behind the busses they pull their own latrines on a trailer as required by law) in a well organized legal operation where guest workers pick crops and tend the fields, and at night they go home. You see Yuma is ground zero enforcement point for illegal immigration and with the thousands of border patrol, ICE agents and Customs agents working and living in the area it is impossible to use undocumented workers, they are in open fields within the sight of those agencies. So a legal solution is found and just like magic these workers are now 'legal'.

Once the right has succeeded in using the term 'illegal alien' then it follows that it is the workers that are at fault because they are 'illegal'. By yielding to the use of the term you are automatically put in a defensive position trying to justify something that you concede is 'illegal'.

The only reason that these workers don't have the documentation is because there is a sufficient number in the pool coming across that the employers who need, in some cases need in others exploit, them are confident in a regular supply.

Now if you use the term 'illegal alien' then you have to accept the fact that you are apart of an illegal conspiracy. If you really believe that these workers are morally wrong then you should stop buying your food at the supermarket. You should find local farms in your area and visit them and find some that never use undocumented workers.

You will find that your diet will be reduced to a few crops that can be easily planted and harvested by machines.

You will probably end up eating most of your food from your own garden.

Your new home? The restaurant you go to? And so on.

Undocumented workers are contributing to the quality of our lives every day and deserve a path to citizenship as a part of a wholistic solution to illegal immigration.

The term 'illegal alien' is a cynical right wing term and while it might survive a semantic test it is not DU worthy.

[BrklynLiberal]

1. kick

[lumberjack_jeff]

2. I reject pejoratives applied to people based on attributes outside their control.

re: Illegal Alien

a) it's not a pejorative
b) choosing to cross a border in violation of the laws of the government that operates inside it, is within their control.

Their own government are the ones exploiting them. They systematically refuse to educate 10% of their population, then treat them as a cash export. Mexico gets 5% of their GDP from the $21 billion that illegal workers send home each year.

[grantcart]

3. The fundamental exploitation by the Mexican government starts long before

they reach school age, it lies in not reducing Mexico's high birth rate.

Other third world countries with the identical GNP and education levels have dramatically reduced their birth rates while Mexico does not.

If you accept that they are the main cause of the problem then you are faced with the moral imperative of not eating the 'illegal' food that they produce at low prices.

You have the control not to partake in the benefits of the "illegal alien" part of the economy.

As a first step it will mean that you will have to stop buying all of the fresh produce at your supermarket.

Now if you use the term 'illegal alien' and continue to buy the fruit of their hard labor you sustain the same level of cynical exploitation that the Palin's of the world do when they hoist on their children abstinence only contraception while at the same time having sex before marriage.

If the are 'illegal aliens' then the fruit of their labor is also 'illegal' and you would be morally bound not to eat it.

[lumberjack_jeff]

9. Silly.

I can no more isolate myself from the illegal/exploitive economy, than you can isolate yourself from the carbon-producing one. If the only way I can morally eat is to send all the illegal workers home, then let's get on with it. It's almost dinnertime.

Yes, I acknowledge that I probably contribute to the problem of cheap illegal labor by virtue of purchasing the goods and services from the owners who profit from it, but I won't compound that culpability by silence.

[grantcart]

13. You compound the culpability by accepting the benefits of the undocumented worker

and putting the onus on the legality of the system on them.


That is the fundamental definition of cynical exploitation.


If there involvement is so ubiquitous that you are compelled to purchase products that they produce then they are only illegal in a cynical way.

The mass expulsion of agricultural workers to Mexico would have only one result: We would then be in the situation of importing a sizeable portion of our produce from Mexico rather than growing it here.
.

[lumberjack_jeff]

17. The onus of legality fell to them when they crossed the border.

Don't infantilize their choices. They are not powerless in the face of the irresistable draw of Lumberjack's open wallet at the vegetable stand.

In 1980, there were very few illegal workers. Citizens and legal workers picked the crops. Tomatoes were $0.39/lb. Spare me this "think of the lettuce!" hyperbole.

Going to a legal workforce would yield several results, among them; increased mechanized picking and increased wages and safety standards for agricultural workers.

[EFerrari]

30. So, tell me, what happened in 1980? Did Mexican mothers suddenly

start giving birth to sociopaths en mass?

Please spare me this "blame American policy on Mexico" bulleria.

[CreekDog]

55. what about the children?

you act like undocumented children don't exist.

but i would trade you for them in a heartbeat.

[lumberjack_jeff]

63. I know you would.

In the search for cheap arugula, loyalty to your countrymen means little.

The children born in the US are citizens. Like all US child-citizens, they are entitled to foster care if their parents break the law.

Children who are brought here by lawbreaking parents are not.

[CreekDog]

64. Entitled to Foster care if their parents break the law

:wtf:

just go away. :eyes:

[lumberjack_jeff]

66. Excellent reading skill. n/t

[CreekDog]

68. no, i get it completely

you want to create orphans.

[lumberjack_jeff]

69. No.

I prefer illegal aliens raise their children in the parent's native country.

But people born here are US citizens to whom I have a responsibility. If it is in the child's best interest to stay, then we help.

[CreekDog]

88. yes, you will make the children citizens orphans if they stay

kicking their parents out.

the only want to stay with their parents is to have them give up their (the children) own country.

your position is indefensible.

[sabrina 1]

75. Wow! Your xenophobia knows no bounds!

Children who are brought here or anywhere else are innocent of any wrong-doing. In a civilized society that is.

The world you envision is a dark, frightened, pathetic world, where even children must suffer because YOU must feel protected. 'Home of the brave'! Right!

[CreekDog]

54. silly? no, you're craven

not liberal either.

[nomorenomore08]

24. Yeah, they should just stay in their own country and starve to death!

:sarcasm:

[lumberjack_jeff]

25. No, they should rob a local bank.

:sarcasm:

I guess if I need money, and the only way I can imagine to accommodate that need is to break a law, best to break someone else's law. What's the worst that can happen? I'll get sent home.

[nomorenomore08]

26. Robbing a bank =/= crossing the border unauthorized.

The former is a felony, the latter is a civil infraction, i.e. NOT A CRIMINAL OFFENSE. Treating "illegals" as if they were felons simply for being here is grossly out of proportion, and smacks of racism.

[lumberjack_jeff]

29. What is the point of controlling immigration

if the penalty for the "infraction" isn't deportation?

I don't think the laws against bank robbing would have much effect if the robber got to keep the money.

[nomorenomore08]

33. The only way to "control" immigration from Mexico is to reform the system

so that undocumented immigrants can become legal residents. Regardless of the law, if people are desperate enough, they WILL cross the border. And there are already 10+ million of them here, and the vast majority aren't going anywhere. Many have lived here for years, if not decades, and many have American-born children.

But yeah, they're ILLEGAL, I get it. No other considerations matter because they're ILLEGAL. And the law, no matter how misguided or unjust, trumps all.

[Mike K]

84. There would be no sensible reason to cross the border

illegally (other than criminal intent) if the laws against employing undocumented workers were enforced. So your premise is flawed.

As far as those who are already here, so long as they are leading peaceful, productive lives and are not taking jobs away from American citizens I have no problem with legitimizing them. But if there are illegals here who are depriving your fellow citizens of jobs, regardless of how long they've been here or any other consideration, do you feel they should be allowed to simply enter a country illegally and dispossess a citizen? Do you think that's okay?

What do you suppose would happen to you if you sneaked into another country, Switzerland, for example, and displaced some Swiss citizen by working for less than the standard wage? I say you'd be lucky if all you got was deported.

Right now there are American citizens imprisoned in Iran for doing nothing more than accidentally crossing the border while hiking. They are held as suspected spies. But we here in the U.S. are led by our government officials to regard all of the possibly twenty million illegals who arrive here by the thousands every day and night as prospective fruit pickers and nothing more. Meanwhile we are the most likely target of terrorism in the world and any one of the arriving illegals can be the guy who plants the next bomb or releases a bio-weapon.

[Luminous Animal]

86. Crossing the border is not a crime. It is a civil infraction on par with jaywalking.

[EFerrari]

41. You keep comparing immigrants to violent criminals.

That's just weird. These people are here to work. If they wanted to steal your lunch and do you in, you'd be dead already. lol

[Mike K]

70. Then we should be maintaining a viable guest worker program.

The reason for Arizona's action is the failure of government to facilitate such a program and thereby eliminate the flow of illegals into and through their state.

So don't try to portray opposition to illegal immigration as being motivated by racism or any other sinister purpose. Your beef is with those politicians who are on the take from major employers of undocumented workers.

And for your information, a significant number of illegals are violent criminals. In fact seventeen percent of the populations of federal prisons consist of illegal aliens -- which does not speak for the individual state prisons.

[EFerrari]

71. I disagree with your premise. Immigration is DOWN in Arizona.

The reason for SB1070 is to throw red meat to the Republican base.

Do we need reform? Sure we do. No group of working people should be subjected to the abuse that undocumented workers from Mexico take every day.

And no, a significant number of undocumented workers are not violent criminals. That's right wing bullshit fabricated wholesale. Study after study shows that immigrants do not commit any more crime than any other group.

[Mike K]

77. If the illegal alien population in Arizona is down it's because

Arizona is ramping up to do something about it.

Re: the illegals in federal prisons, a cursory Google search turned up a figure of over 55,000 in the year 2,000 alone. I can only guess what it is today. And those figures are from the General Accounting Office, not some "right wing" source. http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d05646r.pdf

Do you know the cost of confining one individual in a federal prison? And those numbers do not include the state prisons.

[EFerrari]

81. Nope. Working people starting going in the other direction

even before the crash because jobs dried up.

And do you know how much it has cost you to drive these workers north? How much do you pay for bases in places like Peru, who is not being threatened by anyone except their own people protesting their rancid, US backed government? How much do you pay for all the bases we have in Latin America, for all the "military aid" we send, how much do you pay out to USAID to manipulate those governments so corporations can rape those countries and make life so impossible for working people that they have to flee?

The same multi-nationals that ream those people ream you. You pay for the dislocation of those people so Harris and Chiquita and Dole and the mining companies and the sweatshops can get sweet deals. And that's BEFORE they cross the border.

[lumberjack_jeff]

78. Yesterday, someone posted a link showing that deportations were up.

This year, ICE expects to deport 150,000 felons.



There are about 10 million illegal aliens in the US. Is a felony rate of 1.5% of the population per year "equal to any other group"?

[EFerrari]

83. You might want to read this link:

http://immigrationpolicy.org/special-reports/myth-immigrant-criminality-and-paradox-assimilation

There are others. In fact, immigrants commit fewer crimes than other groups.

[treestar]

45. What's the point of restrictive laws if they can't be enforced?

If they were enforceable, we would not have so many.

And the point of the OP was, we reap the benefits.

So make sure you go and buy your vegetables at top prices from somewhere you can be sure had nothing to do with the latest group of impoverished immigrants.

[lumberjack_jeff]

48. I think I'll become an H-1b lawyer

Since DU are the champions of internationalization of labor, I'll be embraced with open arms, and bathe in the reflected sympathy for our working brothers and sisters.

... after all, they're only taking the jobs of lazy overpaid americans. Computer stuff is, after all, jobs americans won't do, and I do so like my cheap gadgets.

[EFerrari]

72. I wouldn't quit my day job. n/t

[lumberjack_jeff]

74. You have one? Lucky you. n/t

[Mike K]

79. Why do you suppose they are not enforceable?

The fact is you're wrong. The government could maintain a viable guest worker problem that would end the illegal alien problem and keep the price of vegetables at the same or closely similar rate. The reason government doesn't do that is graft. Bribery.

As to your bottom line, I wouldn't mind paying a few bucks more a week for vegetables if it would improve the lot of the documented, government approved guest workers who pick them under controlled and inspected conditions -- as it should be but isn't.

So how about telling us why you believe the immigration laws can't be enforced.

[CreekDog]

53. what do you call undocumented children?

or adults whose parents brought them here when they were children?

[lumberjack_jeff]

65. Illegal aliens.

When american parents bring their children along for a "(walk) 50 miles through the wilderness of a hostile country" during the act of committing a crime, we call them child abusers.

[CreekDog]

67. .

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

:wtf:

[Luminous Animal]

85. It is a civil infraction not a crime. Do you also accuse jaywalkers of being child abusers?

[Richard Steele]

96. Consider your opinion 'duly noted', nondonor..

nm

[T Wolf]

4. Even worse is the shortcut - illegals. As if that was the sum total of their meaning and

existence.

Parallel to the Democratic vs. Democrat thing.

An adjective is a descriptor. A noun is a definer. Big difference.

Think Jewish as compared to Jew.

Words and context and meaning do matter.

[Lance_Boyle]

5. I think the admins get to decide what language is "DU worthy."

"Illegal alien" is a legal term, not a cynical right wing term, and I will happily continue using it to describe those who cross the border illegally.

[grantcart]

7. No the admins get to decide what is permitted.

Using the term is not cynical until you use the term, pat yourself on the back for being a moral beacon to the world and then go to the supermarket and buy the fruits of 'illegal aliens' knowing full well that you are benefiting from a system that you do not approve.

Unless you take yourself out of the 'illegal alien economy' then your use of the word is 100% cynical.

It is exactly the same type of cynical actions that Rep Souder takes when makes a video about abstinence education while having an affair with the interviewer.

If it is illegal then stop buying their produce. Once you realize how obiquitous it is you will realize that it is impossible.

[Kali]

11. Around here (border region, SE AZ) the official term is "Undocumented Alien,"

not "Illegal Alien"

Not sure that IS a correct term anymore.

[Zywiec]

32. It is the correct term even now

Illegal Alien:
A foreign national who (1) entered the United States without inspection or with fraudulent documentation or (2) after entering legally as a nonimmigrant, violated status and remained in the United States without authorization.


http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.eb1d4c2a3e5b9ac89243c6a7543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=515cfb41c8596210VgnVCM100000b92ca60aRCRD&vgnextchannel=515cfb41c8596210VgnVCM100000b92ca60aRCRD

[Kali]

39. border patrol uses the term Undocumented Aliens and the abbreviation, UDAs

I'm not that hung up on the particular term - although it sure seems to generate a lot of new law-and-order types where one would expect more compassion. Rather than legal justice there is this concept of social justice. DU seems a little lacking of late.

[CreekDog]

56. What was the correct term for black slaves when the Constitution was ratified?

don't ignore the elephant in the room.

[Statistical]

34. Technical term per US Code is "unathorized alien".

Undocumented sounds like someone just left their documents here.

Everyone in the US is either an alien or a citizen.

The alien group is broken down into Authorized Alien and Unauthorized Alien.

If you have permissions from the government to be here (for whatever reason) you are an Authorized Alien, if not (for whatever reason) you are an unauthorized Alien. Obviously citizens are neither because they don't need permissions to be here.

Authorized Alien has lots of sub categories.

Technically someone on a student visa, or tourist Visa is an authorized alien. If their authorized status expires and they are still here they become unauthorized.

A permanent resident is another form of authorized alien. They are not a citizen but there is no expiration on their authorization.

[jp11]

6. It fits for describing someone who is not a citizen and is here without permission of the government

when those are the two primary things you are trying to convey about them, illegal immigrant works as well. The thread you reference is full of semantic arguments from both sides so I won't beat that horse any more.

[grantcart]

10. It fits a system that cynically exploits them

In Yuma for example the same workers doing the same thing are given papers and are magically legal.


Undocumented workers reflects both their status and the moral ambiguity of a system that invites and encourages them while exploiting them at the same time.

[Kali]

8. I have less problem with the term

than the attitude that somehow all that prevents them from being "legal" is a simple choice or procedure. As if obtaining the correct documentation was somehow like some middle class citizen going on line an renewing a drivers license.:eyes:

My main problem is using terms like legal and illegal gives false credence to the wish/belief that these people are hardened CRIMINALS. Breaking all kinds of IMPORTANT LAWS. In need of serious PUNISHMENT.

And I thought it was the right that was so into the big Daddy, rules and bootstraps bullshit. Man, there is a lot of it here.:puke:

[lumberjack_jeff]

12. "the attitude that somehow all that prevents them from being "legal" is a simple choice or procedure

Heh.

So you're saying that our choices should not have legal ramifications? Damn! Who knew it was that easy?

[Kali]

15. huh?

No, I am saying a hell of a lot of people seem to think that all a migrant has to do is "get the proper paperwork." As if anybody would go through what many of them do just because they didn't want to hassle with some paperwork. And yet, that is the only "crime" - a simple civil offense for having no documents. For that they deserve to be treated like shit. Because they actually had the fortitude to get here and work their asses off, we play games with their lives over fucking papers.

And as if they had the proper paperwork everybody would be hunky dory with them then. Sure.

To see "liberals" on this site be so concerned with the law IN THIS ONE AREA sure is interesting. No, it is fucked.

[lumberjack_jeff]

18. Yeah. Sometimes complying with the law is hard. n/t

[Kali]

36. Life is hard.

For some, life is so hard that walking across a desert in order to come work their asses off in a hostile place where the some majority of the population sees them as sub-human because they are committing a civil offense in order to work and live there isn't whole lot of choice.

Isn't it nice you aren't faced with that? Are you so selfish and greedy that you can't share a small bit of the comparative wealth that you enjoy simply by the luck of being born on one side of an imaginary line? Is the LAW, this particular LAW so very important to you? Really? That is so sad. I wonder how much help you would have been during the run up to the civil war? What if you were faced with a desperate run-away slave? I mean he would have had a choice to stay and work for his OWNER instead of running off looking for some vague concept of freedom enjoyed by good LAW-abiding white CITIZENS.

Bah I am so disgusted by your type of thinking! Good citizen! All through history "good citizens" have obeyed and supported disgusting inhuman policy. Stay proud of your traditions.

[CreekDog]

58. why are you allowing yourself to be part of breaking legally entered treaties with Native Americans?

surely complying with that can't be so hard.

why aren't you?

law breaker.

[yodoobo]

23. I'd own a Ferrari if it weren't for the paperwork.

I think reducing this argument down to an issue of paperwork is disingenuous no matter what side of the argument you stand.

[Kali]

37. If you needed that car to live and take care of your family, or perhaps built it with your own hands

and some stupid bureaucratic rule kept you from "owning" it I bet you would feel differently.

Because wishing for a ferrari is the same thing as taking care of a hungry family:eyes:

It IS an issue of paperwork. You got 'em and supposedly you are good to go (bullshit - neither of us really believes that do we? there is still the issue of racism) you don't have them and you are ILLEGAL - not wanted, subject to indefinite imprisonment without due process and/or deportation. Paperwork and the luck of the draw as to which side of the line you got hatched.

[lumberjack_jeff]

43. Did you know the unemployment rate in Mexico is 4%?

You'd think differently about how stupid the "bureaucratic rules" are if illegal workers were competing for your job.

[treestar]

44. Disingenuous

Most people are self employed, surviving by having marginal businesses. If they are not counted as employed, the rate is much higher, in the 30s, I believe.

[lumberjack_jeff]

46. Exactly like me.

Self employed in a marginal business, therefore not unemployed.

... but I live in a country with a 9.5% OFFICIAL unemployment rate.

[Luminous Animal]

50. Do you know that they count people who roll on broken glass

to entertain tourists as employed? Yes, they do.

[lumberjack_jeff]

62. They have the 13th largest economy in the world and are home to the worlds wealthiest person.

Americans who panhandle in lieu of seeking nonexistent jobs are not considered unemployed either.

Mexico has nearly the worst gini index of any country and have the largest proportion of their population earning under 50% of the median income.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_pop_bel_med_inc-economy-population-below-median-income

I have also recently been told from an expat friend in Mexico that 6th graders are given a pass-fail test which determines whether they are entitled to further education. (I have yet to verify this, but he told me it was in the english-language newspaper Atencion and verified by the consul at his local embassy)

Their economy sucks because it is designed to suck. So long as half the population is kept desperate, Carlos Slim will be kept rich, because the castoffs will find their way to the US and send the money home.

We're enabling these abuses, by demanding cheap lettuce, and accepting the most soft-headed kind of benevolence; "They're a hard-working bunch that simply want a better life. I think they should have a human right to your job."

[Kali]

59. bwahahahhaha

do you think you could live on the daily "wage" of the lower scale "employed" person in Mexico? And I don't buy that figure in the least!

terrapins and lumberjacks, hope yuou all enjoy your entire pie, since you aren't inclined to share

[yodoobo]

47. I would steal and kill if it meant saving my kids from starvation.

But I would feel pretty bad about it.

[Luminous Animal]

52. Kill? Really? You would deprive someone else of life and liberty?

I'd steal in a heartbeat but, unless someone is directly threatening me, I wouldn't kill.

[yodoobo]

61. like I said...i would feel bad about it

But if its my childs life or someone else...

[Caliman73]

14. Excellent post.

I don't think that any of us likes to hear how we contribute to the problems that we decry. There is a thread on the forum about the brutal conditions in a Chinese factory which produces various products for Apple, yet people talk about Apple as if it is a wonderful company and how magical their products are.

We all benefit in some way from the labor of people who are here working without the proper documentation or who are exploited by American corporations in their own countries. Unless you are completely self sufficient, from growing your own food to making your own clothes and building your own home with materials from your own land. To target them and blame them for our social, economic, and political problems is hypocrisy.

recommended..

[grantcart]

tks

[grantcart]

49. tks

[political_Dem]

16. I applaud your efforts. Thank you for posting this in the name of humanity and civility.

Your post was excellently put when approaching this topic.

[guardian]

19. How about using

* foreign national
* Mexican citizen (or Ethiopian Citizen or whatever country)
* Mexican national (or other country national)
* foreigners

if the legal term "illegal alien" bothers you.

[lumberjack_jeff]

20. None of the terms you suggested distinguish between legal and illegal presence. n/t

[a la izquierda]

21. thanks for some sanity...

though I KNOW it falls on deaf ears and blind eyes. There are some folks here who I suspect would kick me while I was down because I believe the way you do.
And they call themselves Democrats.

[cliffordu]

22. Fucking right. K&R

[David Zephyr]

27. K&R.

"Undocumented workers are contributing to the quality of our lives every day and deserve a path to citizenship as a part of a wholistic solution to illegal immigration.

"The term 'illegal alien' is a cynical right wing term and while it might survive a semantic test it is not DU worthy."

-----

Needed to be said. I like your term: "A wholistic solution". That takes courage, honesty and a sense of humanity. I hope we can get there.

[WillyT]

28. To Paraphrase Moose-Girl...We Are All "Illegal Aliens" Now !!!

Has a nice ring to it... don't ya think?



:shrug:

[Mike 03]

31. It is not a worthy term, any more than calling someone "retarded" or using any

slur term for an amputee. It is a term that has outlived its usefullness, in need of a better term.

But as history shows, the new term will soon become a slur and outlive its usefullness too. We just have to keep up.

[lumberjack_jeff]

35. At risk of understatement, I disagree.

A person with a developmental disability can't change and didn't choose to be that way.

An illegal alien can and did.

[Kali]

38. did they CHOOSE to be born in the wrong country?

How WISE of you to have been born on the correct side of the border.

[lumberjack_jeff]

42. I wanted to be born in Kuwait. To the royal family. Yeah, that's the ticket.

Oh well. I guess I'll *have to* sneak in.

This is one of the dumbest and most unintentionally egotistical things I've ever read; eg "everyone who wasn't born here was born in the wrong place".

Generally, A person is a citizen of the place they were born. You can't extra-legally sneak into the place of your preference and whine that "illegal" is a rude thing to be called.

[Luminous Animal]

57. You want to preside over a slave state, do you?

The U.S. has a long history of exploiting the Mexican citizenry and Mexico's resources that continues today with NAFTA. The corrupt Mexican government colluded with the corrupt U.S. government against the desires of the labor population of both countries. And while wages of labor in the U.S. have declined since NAFTA's passage, it is nothing compared to decimation of livelihood for many Mexican citizens. So yes, a Mexican national has the misfortune to be born next to the biggest bullying super power on the continent that advocates for the free flow of capital but forces labor to commit a civil infraction or subsist on the edge of starvation.

[Kali]

60. yeah that is the same thing

wishing to be obscenely wealthy vs working like a dog to at least be able to feed your family

sneaking into the place of your preference, like some kid slipping into an amusement park

yeah I'm sure so many just sneak through, slip across (ever walked 50 miles through the wilderness of a hostile country?) to be constantly subjected to the likes of your arrogant, uncompromising, attitude everywhere they look. I am sickened by it just reading your words.

[Mike K]

73. Did the starving Ethiopians choose to be born in their country?

How about the victimized Tutsis of Rwanda. Did they choose to be born there. Add to this list those slaves in the Sudan who sell for around two hundred dollars apiece. Did they choose to be born there?

So what is your solution to the problem of unfortunates in many parts of the world? Invite them all to just sneak into the U.S.?

Consider yourself lucky to be born here rather than there. And consider yourself lucky to have a home with a lock on the door. But if you'd like to change your luck, start leaving your door unlocked and let the word get out.

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mike K]

80. Kali,

Keepers at NYC's Bronx Zoo have found it necessary to position plexiglas barriers beyond the bars of some cages in the primate exhibit because the monkeys therein are known to defecate into their hands and throw feces when they see something that upsets them. The monkeys do this when they are frustrated because all that a monkey in a cage can do when he doesn't like something is throw shit.

Ignorance and stupidity are metaphorical cages. Personal insults and empty ad hominem comments are analogous to handfuls of shit to be tossed out in place of intelligent, reasoned, logical arguments.

[TriMera]

40. Rec. Well said. n/t

[suffragette]

51. K&R

Well said, grantcart.

[grantcart]

82. thks

[sonias]

87. Well said grantcart!

No human is illegal. The better term for people living in our country in violation of our immigration laws is "undocumented immigrants".

They are humans, they are immigrants and they contribute greatly to our society and economic engine.

:applause:

[MellowDem]

89. Wow.

"They are humans, they are immigrants and they contribute greatly to our society and economic engine."

At whose expense and whose benefit? That's the question. They contribute greatly to the profits of corporations and to the depression of wages in many industries, not to mention labor standards. They are the posterboy of libertarianism. Why have free trade and a free market without free labor? Yeah, free labor, that's the ticket to a better life for the working class!

But I guess as long as they make products here cheaper (just like China makes products in WalMart cheaper), it's all A-OK, right?

[sonias]

90. "At whose expense and whose benefit?"

At no ones "expense" and to all our benefit, essentially. Immigration is good for our country because it's a whole generation of new young people to contribute to our society. Yes they start at low paying jobs that not many American's want. But within one generation their kids start to move up in economic class. They are not making cheap shit in America. They are cutting your lawns, working in agriculture, washing your dishes in restaurants, working in hotels, constructing homes and doing all sorts of other manual intensive jobs.

And yes it is a product of NAFTA and globalism. The new economic world order is pushing labor to seek those jobs, no matter what borders are crossed.

In Texas for example

Comptroller's report from 2006
Undocumented Immigrants in Texas:
A Financial Analysis of the Impact to the State Budget and Economy
December 2006

This is the first time any state has done a comprehensive financial analysis of the impact of undocumented immigrants on a state's budget and economy, looking at gross state product, revenues generated, taxes paid and the cost of state services.

The absence of the estimated 1.4 million undocumented immigrants in Texas in fiscal 2005 would have been a loss to our gross state product of $17.7 billion. Undocumented immigrants produced $1.58 billion in state revenues, which exceeded the $1.16 billion in state services they received. However, local governments bore the burden of $1.44 billion in uncompensated health care costs and local law enforcement costs not paid for by the state.

-- Carole Keeton Strayhorn, Texas Comptroller

Keeton was a Republican and I know this study is a bit dated but I bet the report would show they contribute more today. And note she didn't use the term "illegal" herself.

[MellowDem]

91. Ah, so your cool with having a slave underclass...

to mow lawns etc. etc. I know that illegal immigrants are, overall, an economic boon to the US, but who benefits from this boon, and does it make it right? It's the companies that profit the most, though consumers benefit from cheaper products. And yes, illegal immigrants make cheap stuff or do stuff cheaply. It's the whole point. You must love WalMart then.

And this was the red alert from your post right here:

"Yes they start at low paying jobs that not many American's want."

Whenever I see this comment in an illegal immigration debate, I know the other person has no idea what they're talking about. The reason that those jobs are low paying is because they are saturated with illegal labor. Americans want jobs that are good paying, not jobs that they can't get paid shit for because they're competing with illegal labor. Illegal labor, once again, is a libertarian businessman's wet dream. You seem to be ignoring this. It's similar to back in the days of slavery, when poor whites who wanted work could never go work in the fields of the rich aristocracy, because how could they compete with slave labor? They had higher expectations than that. Illegal labor does the same thing to legal workers. It's a sort of second-class citizenry. And the business interests of the Republican Party love it for its economic benefits to their businesses.

I could care les if a Republican who wants illegal labor to continue streaming in doesn't use the term "illegal" herself. She knows her interests, and her interests are in keeping a steady stream of illegal immigrants coming to perform illegal labor for businesses. Businesses LOVE ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION! I don't know how much clearer I could make it!

[sonias]

93. Have you ever been an immigrant yourself?

I have no idea what I'm talking about? I live in Texas for Christ's sake. I grew up on the border of Texas and Mexico - I know plenty of about the immigration debate. I lived it almost every day of my life.

Have you ever mowed grass as a job? I did - not that easy. And just because the low paying jobs are saturated with people willing to work for a low wage doesn't mean those jobs would pay more if there was no illegal labor. Has Congress raised the minimum wage much in 20 years. Get real.

No one is arguing that businesses don't love illegal immigration and cheap labor. I believe the whole point of the OP was not to use a demeaning term of "illegal alien". You're the one who can't seem to understand a bit of civility on the issue. You're reeking with distrust and distaste for people who are migrating into this country to support their families. Nothing wrong with that. The U.S. is responsible for the widespread destruction of many Latin American economies thanks to NAFTA. If the world's largest economic power and its corporations were creating jobs in the U.S. while at the same time killing jobs in Latin America, what did you expect the people to do? Sit home and starve?

The real problem is the power of corporations - we agree on that. Just don't take it out on human beings.

[MellowDem]

94. I've lived all over...

including in Houston, Chicago, Kansas City, Baltimore, Cincinnati. I've worked two minimum wage jobs in Chicago where I was the only legal worker that wasn't management, one as a dishwasher and another in the fast food industry. I was 16 and 17 years old working with 30, 40, and 50 year olds. I never stated a distate for illegal immigrants themselves. I liked them as co-workers, they're just like anyone else. That would be your projection. I have worked doing lawns, by myself as a kid starting at 12 all the way through college. Except when I moved to Texas, where all the lawn mowing done was by illegal labor. I couldn't get a job as anything above minimum wage for the summer, because I was competing against middle-aged illegal labor that had these jobs full-time. If I only graduated from high school and wasn't going to college, I'd be pretty shit out of luck in those industries. Those industries that legal workers used to do, but I guess they got "lazy" and just don't want to do them anymore. Yeah, that's it.

The workers I saw didn't look like they worked in great conditions, and something tells me that there were all sorts of labor rights violations going on. But damn was it cheap. $20 for professional lawn care two times a week, which is needed in the summer because of how fast the stuff grows in the heat down there.

The US isn't responsible for the destruction of Latin America with Nafta. Nafta effects the US and Canada and Mexico only, and has had little real economic impact, though people love to blame it for every ill in the book. Latin America isn't all that bad really. Neither is Mexico. But the US has a higher standard of living, that's why people come here. To blame it all on the US is a simpleton exuse as to why illegal immigration is A-ok. Mexico likes the status quo. They benefit a lot from illegal immigration. The only people who don't benefit are American and Mexican workers, especially blue collar or poor Mexican and American workers. People come to the US illegally mainly from Mexico and Latin America because it's easy to and practically encouraged and it's very easy for them to get work. There are plenty of other very desperate people out there from countries much worse off than Mexico, but you never see them because they're not right next door.

I wish I could buy the idea that of the hundreds of thousand of illegal immigrants coming here, their families are about to starve. But I think the reality is more that the majority just want a better life and more pay. Hell, who doesn't? But illegal labor does something funny. Maybe they have a better life with more pay, but then they depress wages and labor standards and cause other workers to have a worse life with less pay. That's the problem of illegal labor.

I think the solution is going after businesses. But this silly shit over the term "illegal" is just that. It's a legal term. It is illegal and it has real, negative consequences, so trying to downplay it just seems like something businesses would like to do.

No one seems to care that every other country out there enforces their borders much more strictly than us, including those oh so liberal European countries. It's because they care about their citizens, working conditions, and labor rights. Not corporate profit. The same European nations that once were imperial powers, ones that you would seem to want to blame all the world's problems on. Yet, they don't let that excuse keep them from not allowing corporations to exploit millions of illegal immigrants for their own profit.

[sonias]

97. Thank you for you detailed answer

Obviously you and I are not going to agree on this topic. I'm not going to move your position and you're not going to move mine. So I suggest we disrespectfully disagree.

:hi:

[MellowDem]

98. Well, you have been very understanding

and I know where you are coming from, but we will just have to agree to disagree. Thanks for being polite about it. :-)

[NJmaverick]

92. K&R

[cliffordu]

95. Kicketty