The oil spill may become Obama's Katrina and it may also become his legacy.

[Kablooie]

From everything I'm hearing, the disaster is continuing unabated. The impression is that the government is just sitting around watching BP futz about and BP has no idea what to do. The government has questioned some executives and is slowly gathering some experts to ask for help but everything is passive while the disaster continues actively to grow.

Why aren't we hearing of Obama ordering the government to take over the situation? Why don't we hear them asking for help from other countries and corporations that might have useful equipment or techniques?


This may become Obama's legacy because he seems to be taking a hands off policy. It's almost as if they are saying, "It's BP's problem, let BP fix it."

If he doesn't put some fire under fixing this soon, and it may already be too late, he will have to take the blame the same as Bush did for Katrina. Katrina ended Bush's rise to power and if Obama is not careful, this could do the same for him.

[SwampG8r]

1. i will check in later to see how many

names you get called by the openminded

[breadandwine]

39. This - IS - Obama's Katrina.

The subtext of his whole approach is

NO WE CAN'T.

Obama isn't doing JACK SH*T.

Obama announced a commission to study the situation recently.

If he were Bush we would be howling from the rafters by now.

Obama also isn't nearly as computer literate compared to the people who energized his campaign.

He literally doesn't know what's going on the way the rest of us do.

He's getting his information feeds from the corporations and he's busy with them because they give him campaign donations.

Including BP.


This is definitely Obama's Katrina.

He failed and is publicly perceived to have failed and he's doing nothing.



Here's his new mantra:



No we can't.
No we can't.
No we can't.
No we can't.
No we can't.
No we can't.
No we can't.
No we can't.
No we can't.
No we can't.
No we can't.
No we can't.
No we can't.
No we can't.
No we can't.
No we can't.
No we can't.
No we can't.
No we can't.
No we can't.
No we can't.
No we can't.

[saigon68]

46. DRILL BABY DRILL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9D3epQL704

[pnwmom]

84. This is nothing like Katrina. Evacuation is a relatively simple situation that the

National Guard and military have a great deal of experience in -- but Bush didn't even try to handle it for several days.

The Gulf disaster has no precedent and no pre-existing solutions. Nowhere in the world has an oil disaster occurred in the scale that's happening in the gulf right now. It isn't a question of money, it's a question of knowledge and time. No matter how much money we spent, we can't instantly solve this problem. All we can do is try one thing, then try another.

We should have never been in this situation, but we are, thanks to years of lax regulation before Obama became President. Clearly, his willingness to consider more drilling was wrong. But, just as clearly, he isn't Superman. He can't pull a solution to this disaster out of the air.

[truedelphi]

91. Sorry but those who have been looking into oil disasters have been saying since the

Exxon Valdez that the other oil drilling nations seem to know exactly how to take care of problems, quickly and efficiently.

BP was granted an exemption form the same agencies that are used a dozen times a week to stymie the crowd trying to produce clean and cheap energy from alt sources.

BP got an exemption, and now that its rig has split apart killing people, and now that this gusher rises out of the ocean floor, it is obvious to those who have studied the problem for decades that expertise outside of BP USA should be called to help out.

Instead, Obama appears afraid of losing his BP campaign contributers.

mayeb no one in the world can do anything about this, but an attempt should have been made to pull together the rela experts fromoutside this country. Obama could have issued a call to arms of the brightest, most efficient and quickest response teams. Since Scottish government and oil drillers seem to know more than the American drill types, they should behere helping. Upon invitation of the PResident.

Instead, the way Obama has handled this only convinces the 60% of all Dems who realize that he is the serf of CorpoRATe Interests and that that is really what is going on here.

[pnwmom]

92. How do you know that our allies aren't working with us to find a solution? n/t

[truedelphi]

95. The experts from other lands are not being allowed to come over here and do a thing.

BP is in charge and BP is handling this mess in its usual slip shod way.

And Obama for his part has done little other than see to it that his Coast Guard keeps our news teams from having video footage of the disaster.

The man has the power of the Executive Order. Which he should be using as I type this to

1) Pull BP off the mess

2) get some real expertise working on the problem

3) see to it that the $ 1,000 a day per oil unit is assessed against BP. This would already bring them to penalties of over a billion dollars. Instead, our bought and paid for Senators and congress people are on C Span applauding BP for offering some fifty million per affected state. Whooppee!

Can anyone say "campaign contributions?"

[pnwmom]

96. How do you know that the experts aren't consulting with ours? They don't have

to be actually on the site to help. But how do you even know they're not on the site?

[truedelphi]

97. because the experts would be coming up with real solutions and not

the half baked solutions that are currently being employed by BP.

[pnwmom]

103. You have more faith in "experts" than I do. Can you tell me about a similar situation

that has occurred where this expertise would have been developed?

From what I understand, this situation is unprecedented.

[truedelphi]

126. Yes, this situation is unprecedented. But unprecedented does not

mean surprising. Our bureacrats constantly use the powers of the various agencies to hassle the little business person. Some of the stories I have heard lately of various local alt fuel entrepreneurs and how the Dept of Energy has this fine and penalty for them to face, or that fine and penalty to face, while meanwhile the good folks at BP were given this exemption that allowed this Hell on Earth to occur...

When Rolling Stone sent a reporter to check on the Exxon Valdez spill in the eighties, that reporter included a description of how advanced the nation of Scotland was in terms of having:

One) a game plan. In other words, The Government of Scotland didn't go into "MY GAWD A SPILL! Now what do we do?" mode because they had a plan. And that allowed them to have a fast response time.

Two) They had better equipment, as their nation was not in bed with the corporate interests to the degree that we are here.

The fact that we have a government that continually offers exemptions such as the one that allowed BP the ability to create this blunder means that although it is unprecedented, it is not surprising. Obama has wanted to go for "Clean Coal"" and "Clean Nuke power" and "Drilling Off Shore."

If he was as progressive as he appeared to be in October 2008, then instead of just blithely sailing into this mode of action, he would have deployed a commission to see how to best undertake these matters. Instead, almost as if there really is a hand of God operating, we had first the Massey Coal disaster, that killed people. Then we had a toxic nuke water leak, contaminating drinking water supplies in the east, and now we have this massive oil spill.

I have no idea if experts can fix this or not. But the fact remains that this government is turning its back on offers to help, from nations where the experts are more independent than our experts. Maybe no one will be able to come up with a solution. If that is the case, then I will forever hold responsible this Administration and its exemption policy for the Big Players. But when Obama wants my vote in 2012, he better have a very good answer for why the brave and sensible alt fuel people are choking on regulations so they can build cars that operate on vegetable fat, while the Big Player of BP got its guldarn exemption and destroyed the Gulf of Mexico.

[pnwmom]

128. How do you know the government is turning down offers to help? n/t

[truedelphi]

133. From reading the news...

Here is a story about how our State Dept is turning away offers of help --

In fact they are not even telling us which nations have offered us what.

The URL for it is here

http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/05/06/us_n...

U.S. not accepting foreign help on oil spill
Posted By Josh Rogin Thursday, May 6, 2010 - 10:52 AM Share

<snip>When State Department spokesman P.J. Crowley refused to tell reporters which countries have offered assistance to help respond to the BP oil spill, the State Department press corps was flabbergasted.

"As a policy matter, we're not going to identify those offers of assistance until we are able to see, you know, what we need, assess the ongoing situation. And as we accept those offers of assistance, we will inform you," Crowley said.

Reporters pointed out that the Bush administration identified assistance offers after the Katrina disaster, so what is this, a new policy? They pressed Crowley, but he refused to budge.

Then they mentioned Iran's offer of assistance, through its National Iranian Drilling Company. Crowley said there was no Iranian offer of assistance, at least in any official capacity. The reporters kept on it, asking why it was taking so long to figure out what was needed in the first place? That's the Coast Guard's decision, Crowley explained.<snip>

[gateley]

136. You make some valid points, but I'm highly suspicious that instead of going

full tilt, BP's main objective is to 'save the oil' and are attempting measures that will do that and curtail the volcano. But I think they began with the minimal efforts and have gone from there. Maybe other people in the field whose incentive is to stop the damage rather than not lose profits, would have been a better choice.

[truedelphi]

125. Here is a story about how our State Dept is turning away offers of help

In fact they are not even telling us which nations have offered us what.

The URL for it is here

http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/05/06/us_not_accepting_foreign_help_on_oil_spill

U.S. not accepting foreign help on oil spill
Posted By Josh Rogin Thursday, May 6, 2010 - 10:52 AM Share

<snip>When State Department spokesman P.J. Crowley refused to tell reporters which countries have offered assistance to help respond to the BP oil spill, the State Department press corps was flabbergasted.

"As a policy matter, we're not going to identify those offers of assistance until we are able to see, you know, what we need, assess the ongoing situation. And as we accept those offers of assistance, we will inform you," Crowley said.

Reporters pointed out that the Bush administration identified assistance offers after the Katrina disaster, so what is this, a new policy? They pressed Crowley, but he refused to budge.

Then they mentioned Iran's offer of assistance, through its National Iranian Drilling Company. Crowley said there was no Iranian offer of assistance, at least in any official capacity. The reporters kept on it, asking why it was taking so long to figure out what was needed in the first place? That's the Coast Guard's decision, Crowley explained.<snip>

[bobbolink]

109. "If he were Bush we would be howling from the rafters by now."

:(

That says it alll.... for so many here, it is about party, NOT country.

:nuke:

[ProSense]

2. "This may become Obama's legacy because he seems to be taking a hands off policy. "

This is simply nonsense.

The attempts to reframe the Obama's Katrina meme is ridiculous.

[caledesi]

15. Ditto! nt

[Feron]

65. I'm a Katrina survivor and this is absolutely comparable to K.

Obama is a company man just like Bush and with the same shared contempt for ordinary people.

Certainly I don't expect Obama to morph into an Aquaman/Superman hybrid and plug the leak singlehandedly. However he does have the power to expedite Corps of Engineers permits that are necessary for building protective sand levees and by refusing to toe BP's line.

Not to mention accurately reporting the oil flow and bringing in trained boom layers if necessary to lay boom correctly. There are many things he can do that may not even be huge by themselves, but extraordinarily help in the long run.

Watch a press conference sometime and you'll notice no difference between BP's spokesman and the gov't representatives.

[pnwmom]

70. Your being a Katrina survivor doesn't lend you any expertise on oil disasters.

The two situations aren't comparable at all. The government -- through the National Guard and the military -- has always had experience in evacuating victims of disaster. The Federal Government has never had an expertise in drilling or drilling disasters. We've never had an oil gush of anything near this magnitude and our military certainly isn't trained to handle it -- neither is Homeland Security. The only boom that might turn out to fix this problem could be the boom of an atomic bomb.

[Lorien]

3. Hands off, government is bad, corporations do EVERYTHING better than

"we the people" can...or so that seems to be the message. BP had their chance. Now it's time to call in experts from Norway and everyplace else they can be found and take care of the problem. Stop the gusher, clean up the mess, and send the bill to BP. We need strong leadership on this issue NOW, not just a strongly worded statement and finger wagging.

[Skidmore]

34. "We the people" also are the corporations--all sizes.

We provide the labor and the management, and quite often "we the people" stand by silently and watch wrongdoing and only cry out when a disaster happens. Whistleblowing comes at a cost in this nation--your career/job and income. I've been a whistleblower and understand full well the dynamics, including the experience of coworkers who, even when wrongdoing was exposed, still averted their eyes and kept their mouths shut. SO when "we the people" is invoked, I cringe with the awareness that the government and the corporations are flip sides of the same coin--and we are present on both sides.

[glitch]

62. Exactly. Government must never be allowed to even have the appearance of competence.

Reagan decreed it, it must be made so.

[gimama]

4. Thank YOU for posting

I *DON'T* get it.. WHY hasn't he shown REAL leadership? WHY is bp still in charge?

Do the President's little girls get to see this on the teevee?
I HOPE(!) DUers are calling/emailing the WH, & congress, expressing/demanding.
I'm done for this night..
to dream of the Waters,
PINK! & black..
but I remember when the Sea was the color
of my true love's eyes.
Both gone forever.

[Kablooie]

6. He's handling this like he did the health insurance bill -- and with the same result.

[ProSense]

9. "health insurance bill "? Seems you're only interested in distortion. Here

If you're interested.

(NOAA) Response to date

• Total response vessels: more than 1040
  
  
• Containment boom deployed: more than 1.43 million feet
  
  
• Containment boom available: more than 370,000 feet
  
  
• Sorbent boom deployed: more than 560,000 feet
  
  
• Sorbent boom available: more than 1.28 million feet
  
  
• Total boom deployed: nearly 2 million feet (regular plus sorbent boom)
  
  
• Total boom available: more than 1.65 million feet (regular plus sorbent boom)
  
  
• Oily water recovered: more than 8.37 million gallons
  
  
• Surface dispersant used: approximately 600,000 gallons
  
  
• Subsea dispersant used: approximately 55,000
  
  
• Total dispersant used: approximately 655,000
  
  
• Dispersant available: more than 340,000 gallons
  
  
• Overall personnel responding: more than 24,700

EPA Response to BP Spill in the Gulf of Mexico

[Kablooie]

30. First that's recovery. I'm talking about stopping the source.

And there may be a hell of a lot being done but if they are, they aren't letting anyone know.
The public needs to feel that they are doing everything they can if we are to keep our confidence in government.
And as a member of the public, I have not recieved that message from anywhere.

Of course I don't want feel good lies told to us but if they are doing something they need to publicize it.

[boston bean]

49. Private fishing vessels from the area., boom and dispersants, whoop dee freakin doo!

That is a list of three things.

[blindpig]

88. BP is in charge because Capital trumps Government

He is, as someone said upthread, a company man. All presidents are, it's part of the job description, in the wee print, campaign contributions seal the deal.

[SoCalDem]

5. An expert from National Geographic society "explained" a lot on tv yesterday

1. Decades of deregulation and "voluntary" regulations has led to the government ceding exploration/ cleanup/ etc to the private companies.

2. By paying lease fees (when we can even get them to do that), they were more or less given carte blanche to drill baby drill, and then to clean up if pressure got high enough or a spill became well known. (actual payment of cleanup costs via litigation would drag on for years and years, and in the end they often ended up paying out a miniscule amount of any original award)

3. There have been spills as long as these has been oil drilling, but only recently has the press/internet been available to the masses

4. The equipment is so costly and so specialized that there is no reason for the government to have duplicated/ updated as time went by, and many of the pieces of equipment are proprietary and they would not be willing to "share" anyway.

5. Most of the scientists tend to cluster where the money is, and that's working for the actual companies, not the government.

6. There is no warehouse full of specialized submarines etc , just waiting for a president to call them to action and to clean up a spill. It just does not work that way. About the only thing a president could do is to mandate that financial help is available and to direct FEMA to help out, but other than that what do people expect him to do?

[Lorien]

8. I expect him to call in experts and equipment from other Nations if need be

Norway has a huge amount of experience with offshore drilling. Surely they have plans and equipment for dealing with gushers like this one. It's a National disaster and deserves to be treated like one, instead of acting as if it's nothing more than a workplace mishap.

[Cetacea]

10. He should go before the American people and say just that

It will bolster the view that he cares and smear the right-wing wet dream of small government.
As it stands many people from all walks are beginning to question his seemingly lack of interest.

[Bluebear]

16. Bush went on prime time TV at the drop of a hat for his bullshit

I really am surprised that our President has not done the same either to:

Say that the oil leak is not as bad as people fear, and assure us or;

to say that a possible catastrophe looms and that the following steps (A B C) must be taken immediately.

All I recall from April 1 is Obama explaining that oil drilling is safe and should be expanded, and, post-disaster, that he is really really angry with BP.

[SidDithers]

58. Thank you. #6 is the key point. Good post...nt

Sid

[ljm2002]

61. You ask, "what do people expect him to do?"

I expect him to take charge. He needs to assign top people in government and top scientists and top engineers and people with practical knowledge in this area to run the show, and to direct BP to cooperate. He needs to have his team evaluate cleanup methods and pick the top 3, or 5, or 10 methods and start doing them. He needs to mobilize the army of people that are ready, willing and able to help with cleanup and deploy them now. He needs to knock heads together until the scientists and engineers come up with a plausible way of stopping the damned gusher, and then he needs to gather resources and make it happen. He needs to be seen every single day being actively involved in managing this disaster.

That is what I want and expect. That is what leadership is about. This is not a private oil gusher, it is a national environmental catastrophe and it deserves a response that is commensurate with the scale of it.

Instead he remains aloof and unengaged. Yes, I know there is a lot going on in the Gulf right and there are ships etc. doing some cleanup. But BP still calls the shots, the Coast Guard and sheriffs and police still block reporters from the beaches, scientists are still removed from areas where they were studying the underwater plumes of oil. And there is no indication publicly of daily involvement by the President, which signals to me that he does not share the same sense of urgency that most of us are feeling.

This is not a time for cool and calm. That time has come and gone. Now is the time for decisive action. I know the technical hurdles are great. So? There were great technical hurdles in drilling that deep in the first place. Let's have a little of that "Yes, We Can" attitude! Let's have a little less presiding, and a little more executing.

Please, Mr. President. Please.

[dana_b]

107. Yes, I heard that the government actually can't do much yet

it is still in BP's hands and our government don't have the power to do anything unless BP asks us to. It's bullshit though. If effects us so we should have the right to deal with it.

[bighart]

112. Isn't that what Bush said about Kartina?

Can't send in the federal response team until there has been a "formal" request made?

[dana_b]

113. Yep, he sure did!

f***ing b.s. excuses! It's hurting people - we need our government to be able to step in and help those folks asap.

[lonestarnot]

114. Allow the dutch to contribute their knowledge and two clean-up vessels that they have offered,

rent a mile diver from Japan, China or Russia. Anything is better than what appears to be the case.

[JDPriestly]

7. Because the government has no clue as to what to do.

Why in the world would the government hire experts on oil rig management or on oil rig emergency responses? Or even have a list of people who are experts in these areas. The government does not have experts on every imaginable emergency situation.

An earthquake, a flood, a hurricane, a tornado -- the government has a plan of action. FEMA intervenes.

An oil spill of this magnitude. One that has never happened before.

One that the oil companies assured the government would probably not happen. No way the government has people sitting around ready with plans for a response. Don't expect the impossible.

This is not comparable with Katrina.

The levees in New Orleans were known to be vulnerable. The Gulf Coast has been hit by hurricanes before -- perhaps many times. I lived through the tail end of a hurricane on the Gulf Coast myself.

But an oil spill of this magnitude at the depth of this well? No. The government is clueless. And if they did have a team on the staff that was qualified to handle this spill, it would be a waste of money.

Get real. Please.

You do not know what Obama is doing and what is really going on. Neither do I.

But experts on how to handle this situation are not a dime a dozen. Nobody wants to pretend that they can take this on and then just make the situation worse.

Nobody, I repeat nobody, really knows what to do here. They are facing a brand new situation. The well is incredibly deep.

[Lorien]

11. Oh, come on. We send space shuttles up regularly and we can't plug a gusher?

And if we're really that helpless, well then you can bet that countries with Nationalized offshore oil fields DO have plans and equipment to deal with just such an emergency. It's time to call in a few grown ups and tell BP to stand aside.

[sandnsea]

12. A phone number for you

By all means, line up the "grown ups" and tell them to call.

Submit alternative response technology, services or products: [phone]

[CC]

13. If the countries with Nationalized offshore oil fields

do have plans for something like this don't you think they have ALREADY been talking to Obama and Obama to them? Just because you don't see them talking on the teevee news doesn't mean it isn't happening. Besides what makes you or anyone else so sure that the countries with nationalized offshore oil fields have anything sitting around that could stop something of this magnitude? Are they just naturally more prepared than the US, or smarter than the US, are their oil companies (nationalized or not) any less greedy that ours? Where are these super prepared countries that have all the answers and equipment? I haven't seen any including Norway on the teevee yelling that they have the answer and can fix it. Not even for billions of dollars that they could use to fatten their treasuries and economies. Go on and help the repukes tag the results of republican dismantling of the federal government and its rules/regulations on Obama because he can't magically fix the consequences of what has been done over the last 30 years.


I have a feeling there is no one that has any knowledge of how to fix this so everyone is scrambling while trying to figure it out on the fly and that should scare everyone, worldwide.

[Electric Monk]

17. They do. Their plan is require a proper BOP in place before opening the spigot.

Blow Out Preventer. Google it. Norway, Brazil, etc etc. It's not rocket science.

I blame Cheney's energy task force.

[CC]

21. And that will work after the fact how?

I'm not saying that things shouldn't of been done different, better, safer etc. I was asking who has something that will work on it now, after the fact. I am reading comments that mention Norway having an answer and other countries with nationalized fields having the answer. I just can't see tagging Obama with it as his legacy and failure.



I blame Cheney, Bush 1 & 2, Reagan and every other repuke that the went in to government to dismantled it so they and their friends could get richer.

[pnwmom]

25. I have talked to some fluid mechanics engineers who say there may be no

effective solution -- short of a nuclear bomb.

For all we know, other countries would take that measure, if necessary.

[BzaDem]

35. It takes months and years to plan for a shuttle mission, and we have an entire agency for that.

We do not currently have an entire agency to deal with solving this problem given the depth and water pressure. Your analogy is apt in once sense -- dealing with anything at that depth can sometimes be as hard as launching men into space (or at the very least can certainly be on a similar level).

I am not going to blame Obama for not snapping his fingers and having magic dust settle to solve a very intractable problem. You can blame him for allowing the drilling in the first place (to the extent that he could have blocked it), but it is silly to the extreme to blame him for not solving this problem at the snape of his fingers.

[Skidmore]

36. Our space program has been a government program. BP is not

government entity, but a private corporation.

[lonestarnot]

115. It has been said that we know more about space than our own planet where the oceans are concerned.

[Angry Dragon]

24. You just explained what the problen is

A leader needs to talk to the PEOPLE. No one in this country knows what is going on. He needs to tell the people what he knows and not let it be up to bp to let the people know. There is a mess in the gulf. Tell the American people what the plans are and who is in charge and why.

[sabrina 1]

27. 'The levies were known to be vulnerable'

And so were BP's practices, its equipment, it has paid huge fines for violations of safety regulations, just as Massy Energy had. Please don't minimize the role of government in this disaster.

Even I knew BP's record from several years ago, just from reading the news. They've always had a horrendous human rights and safety record. The government probably knew far more.

And there ARE Experts in this field, apparently not employed by BP though. There are companies that do safety checks, eg composed of experts who really know this field better than anyone.

What I want to know is why this government ever gave a go-ahead to anyone, to dig deep into the earth's surface, under the ocean, without having any clue what that might do to the earth itself, and especially to the ocean and coastlines should a disaster occur. And despite the many predictions, and past experiences with such disasters, they had no plan in place for the next emergency.

Kevin Costner was able to work on a plan for an oil spill, why could our Navy eg, not have been charged with defeloping a plan to help in such an emergency? They get enough taxpayer money to be able to spend time on actually defending this country and I'm sure they would love to do it.

It seems the Government blindly trusted a company that has a bad record of disasters and just said 'go ahead' and we'll keep our fingers crossed.

I'd also like to know who advised Obama to lift the ban on Offshore drilling and to make the claims he made, that things were now different than 30 years ago when the ban was put in place, because of all the 'new technology' which, he said meant that 'oil rigs were safer than ever' dismissing all the environmentalists as if they were children. Where did he get that information? Because it couldn't have been more wrong.

And why the sudden flip-flop on Offshore drilling? Had the WH just been told of all the oil that was being discovered at the bottom of the ocean? Because now, contrary to everything we've heard in the past, there is great excitement about the amount of oil to be found offshore and deep in the ocean. That WOULD explain the flip-flop.

While Obama's defenders for that now disastrous decision tried to claim that he was 'calling the bluff of the Right because no one would want to drill offshore as there is not enough oil there', Obama himself never made those claims. I'm thinking his change of heart had something to do with the discovery of oil offshore, way more than was thought to be there up to now.

Anyhow, there are lots of experts in this field. I'm not sure where you got the idea that there is no one for the government to call on. When they finally do though, there will be other excuses made.

[indepat]

57. Surely this administration knew the Federal regulatory agency in charge was corrupted and not

performing its assigned mission, yet it was not cleaned out, just as most of the agencies wholly corrupted by the previous administration had not been cleaned out. junior's entire agenda, all his actions and policies, were holistically corrupt, so anything continued by this administration, everything ratified, are huge mistakes imo. :P

[sabrina 1]

72. Absolutely. Every left-over Bush appointee and staff member

right down to janitors (who could be spies lol!) should have been removed. That's what we voted for, it is not what we got! Just more of the same.

[indepat]

77. And it is and will continue to bite this administration squarely in the ass

:P

[Electric Monk]

14. I blame Cheney's energy task force. This is their legacy.

Letting them save a few bucks on BOPs to help their short term bottom lines is why this BO wasn't properly P'd.

/Blow Out Preventer

[Kablooie]

32. Their policies may have enabled it but Obama is responsible for fixing it.

Bush didn't cause the Katrina disaster but he was responsible for fixing it.

[Dr Fate]

79. What steps did Obama take to reverse Cheney's legacy?

If any. Whatever it was, it did not work.

[Poll_Blind]

18. I kind of think Obama would probably behead BP executives on national TV than let...

...this particular episode (and the growing magnitude of it) be pinned all on him. Very early days yet. I could be wrong.

PB

[TheKentuckian]

20. Early days? We're at a month here of a 100% man made disaster

If its early then its at least starting to get late.

BP has got this ain't going to play much longer and clearly drilling has to be over until at least such a time as we can deal with a debacle of this scope and larger.

[Poll_Blind]

22. I have a feeling this is going to be going on a long time. n/t

PB

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[icee]

26. I agree with you, There is a hidden text with Obama. He is

simply going through the motions of being President. I don't get it.

[pnwmom]

28. Why are you assuming there is some good solution other countries have and we don't?

Most other countries are probably relying on preventative measures -- as we were. But our fail-safe method failed.

Some engineers say that the only solution may turn out to be a nuclear bomb.

[Kablooie]

31. The Scandanavian countrys spend a lot more effort and research on oil industries.

[SidDithers]

59. Can you support that claim?...nt

Sid

[Kablooie]

63. No.

[pnwmom]

67. That doesn't mean they have a solution to a problem of this magnitude --

other than the nuclear one. A problem of this magnitude has never occurred in the history of drilling. The Scandinavian countries might be relying on preventative measures and their citizens might also have a terrible surprise someday.

[Kablooie]

33. You are way off base. He's extremely capable but perhaps too cautious at times.

[Angry Dragon]

23. +1000

[TexasObserver]

29. His "let's see what happens" approach is not working.

This incident has exposed the president's weakness in this regard. He has a tendency to let things spiral out of control, as if events fix themselves.

It's been a month. He's got to get his head out of the clouds and focus on this problem. If he does nothing, then nothing will happen. He's the president. He's got to act like a president when faced with a disaster.

[BzaDem]

37. You are assuming that some other approach by Obama WOULD actually work.

What evidence do you have to back up your assumption?

Is it possible that maybe Obama and his team have evaluated the situation and are actually doing their best, given the intractable nature of the problem of working at such a depth and pressure?

[TexasObserver]

38. No, I'm saying that he's the president, and that means he's required to act.

I'm not bound by your conditions and assumptions.

[BzaDem]

40. But you talk as if somehow "acting" would actually help the situation.

You could be required to do something and still not be able to do it (no matter how much you wish this weren't so).

[TexasObserver]

42. That's because it would.

Your inability to understand that appears to be your sticking point.

He's the president. The buck stops there. The public understands that, even if you don't.

[BzaDem]

48. According to your logic, we should blame Obama for too much snow.

After all,

"He's the president. The buck stops there. The public understands that, even if you don't."

:rofl:

Leaving your fantasy land for a sec, back in reality, the President is actually constrained by factors beyond his control (even if you really don't like to acknowledge this). So, while you may repeat over and over again that Obama can somehow do something that he isn't currently doing to make the situation better, just because you say it doesn't make it true. The fact that you can't provide any evidence to back up the idea that Obama could do better than he is doing underscores the difference between your view and the reality of the situation.

[boston bean]

50. Are you saying this catastrophe is an act of nature, like a snow storm? nt

[TexasObserver]

53. When you can articulate a cogent point, I'll respond further.

So far, you haven't.

[Swamp Rat]

55. The buck DOES stop there. Obama said so himself.

[Usrename]

56. He actually IS acting. He's acting as an enabler.

He has allowed the same criminals who caused this catastrophe of Apocalyptic proportions to remain in charge of the crime scene.

What kind of law enforcement is that?

I know, you don't have to explain it to me, fascism is the new black. I understand that. But that don't make it right.

[SidDithers]

60. Act how? What, specifically, do you want him to do?...nt

Sid

[pnwmom]

68. Are you saying he should just send a nuclear bomb down there?

Because that's what it could come down to. I think he's better off letting the oil industry try and fail at everything they can think of first.

This has never been an area the Federal government has had any expertise in -- unlike rescuing survivors of natural disasters, which is an easy job by comparison to this.

[TexasObserver]

81. No. If I had wanted to say that I would have said that.

I'm very good at choosing the words I want to use. The only people who mention using a nuclear device are the ones who have absolutely no clue what they're talking about. If you do nothing else today, learn to stop using that idea. It makes you look foolish.

A leader has to lead, not stand around watching, waiting to see if someone else is going to act.

[pnwmom]

86. Oh really. The person who told me is a university professor with an expertise

in fluid mechanics, who is familiar with an incident that Russia handled with a nuclear bomb.

You are deluding yourself if you think this isn't being seriously considered.

[TexasObserver]

87. Unlike you and your alleged source, I'm knowledgeable.

No one is going to use a nuke on this problem.

[pnwmom]

89. So what are your qualifications? I certainly hope you're right. n/t

[lamp_shade]

41. YOU WISH !!

[ima_sinnic]

44. what a stupid thing to say. Why would anybody "wish" Obama were "done in" by the leak?

The only people who would wish that would be stupid, racist freepers and teabaggers.

I haven't followed the OP's history or posts, but nothing in this thread suggests s/he is one of those.

People like me donated money and worked for Obama precisely to get somebody COMPETENT in office, someone we PRESUMED would actually work for We The People and actively work to overturn his predecessor's injustices, crimes, and incompetency.

What we are getting instead is one corporate collusion after another. We want desperately for the leak to be fixed, and also for BP to pay whatever it fucking takes, whether or not that bankrupts it, who cares--the important thing is that the disaster is stopped and also mitigated -- there are many BOLD things that Obama could do, but instead he APPEARS to be sitting around acting as BP's mouthpiece when necessary, even shielding them from public wrath. Since politicians care so much about appearances, he is smart enough to know the PR value of letting it be known when he's "done something"--and we haven't heard that he has done that much. He's called a "commission"--big whoop--and as far as I know, HE'S STILL PLANNING TO PUSH FOR MORE OFFSHORE DRILLING.

why shouldn't we be fed up?

[lamp_shade]

47. That loud noise you just heard? Me laughing! I stand firmly by my comment.

[Bluebear]

90. Idiotic.

[Kablooie]

64. You're right. I'm a strong Obama supporter but I have criticisms of him also.

[pnwmom]

69. What are the "bold" things Obama could do to stop the oil from gushing?

Other than sending a nuclear bomb down there? I know engineers in fluid mechanics, and there are no wonderful options out there that aren't being tried.

[ima_sinnic]

78. hello? he could seize BP's assets. He could tell them to step out of the way

since they're getting nothing done and trying to obfuscate and withhold information, and find people who DO know what to do, or have better ideas.
Yeah, sure, EVERYthing is being "tried." How do we know that? Because BP said so?
The fact that BP is being so secretive should be all it takes for Obama to go into action.

[pnwmom]

82. Seizing BP's assets -- though I'm all for it -- wouldn't magically give us a solution

for the oil gushing. An oil disaster of this scale has never happened before.

Obama has pulled together a group of experts who are looking for a solution. But they don't have one yet -- new science and engineering takes time -- and in the meantime, there's little that can be done other than the kinds of things BP has been attempting.

[Aramchek]

43. Obama made it happen! Obama made it happen!!!!

[FrenchieCat]

45. IT'S ALL OBAMA'S FAULT!

Impeach!

[boomerbust]

51. Since

Louisiana, Mississippi, Texas, Alabama, and Florida hate the over reaching Federal Government this might be a good time for them to form their own nation. Now is the time Mr. Perry.

[boston bean]

52. Oh please, you are saying they deserve no federal response.

Well as far as I know people who live in that area do pay taxes.

And they were victims of our government giving permits and blowing off inspections to these criminals.

I guess it's good that you can atleast see the federal gov't is doing nothing.

[Zoeisright]

80. I don't think they DO deserve much of a response.

It's about time they paid for their repuke loving stupidity. And they are paying.

[DatManFromNawlins]

98. Go buy a clue

This oil spill is happening in FEDERAL WATERS, under FEDERAL regulations. BP, Transocean, and Haliburton are primarily responsible, and next in line is the Administration.

[gleaner]

54. Thank you for your post ...

You took the basic facts that many people simply don't want to admit and connected the dots. I agree with you. I don't know how they will ever stop it, and this would be with dynamic leadership not what passes for it these days. This is still our country, though. It is not a corporate frill or entitlement; however the government is letting a corporation destroy a very vital part of it. I'm afraid the Gulf of Mexico will never come back. It is for all intents and purposes dead. The government should be doing more than trying to pretend that there is nothing amiss happening while Obama smirks and postures and people who support him are still trying to convince us what a great victory that stupid health care bill was. Obama is a do nothing loser, but he is killing the planet that the rest of us have to live on. Now, like you, I will sit back and wait for the shrill pipings of people who want to call me names because I disagree with their party line. Know what? I don't give a rats ass. Holler away. It is not going to save the Gulf or any of the people living close enough to the disaster to suffer the physical effects from the disaster that doctors are already beginning to see. K& R.
:kick:

[Kablooie]

76. I disagree.

Obama is not a loser and has already had some notable achievements. All have been compromises but in US politics thats all we can ever expect. Sometimes the compromise is more than we would like but that's not Obama's fault.

The problem is that he carefully considers things before making decisions which in most cases is good, but sometimes a quicker response is required.

He also tends to let the people involved have a crack at solving an issue before he throws his weight into the battle. In this particular case it seems not to have been the best approach.

He has a hell of a lot of challenges and I think for the most part he gets them resolved but always on his own, somewhat lengthy, schedule.

[gleaner]

83. You are entitled to you're opinion,

but I couldn't disagree more. In the case of the environment in particular we are talking about a living thing. Saying that you have to wait and see is the equivalent of wondering how long it would take to smother someone with a pillow while standing there to watch them do it. I don't think you would do that. I think you would jump in and fight to free the other person. You don't "consider carefully" while someone dies a preventable death. The effects the oil catastrophe is having on the Gulf are not isolated to that area. When the oil catches the gulf stream or the hurricanes start, it will move all the way up the eastern seaboard to Canada. The storms will blow the oil and debris from it onto land where the people will get sicker. Family businesses which deal with fishing, shrimping and tourism are gone. There is no way to replace that type of livelihood. If nothing continues to be done the people on the east coast will have to come to California to go to the beach. Long trip.

Also I don't see too much of "note" that Obama has done. I do appreciate your civility and the fact that you thought your post out carefully and made your points count. Thank you. It does facilitate discussion of areas which need to be discussed. Let's agree to disagree on this one. You have your opinion and I have mine. The problem is not either one of us. It is the die off of the Gulf of Mexico and the need to stop it as quickly as we can. The first thing is to get BP out. Letting them into the situation is like letting a fox into a chicken coop.

[Kablooie]

106. I agree that Obama has really screwed up on the oil spew. He will come out of this damaged.

As will a lot of America for a long, long time in the future.

[gleaner]

131. Definitely ...

We had an oil spill in California in the 60s that was small by comparison and it nearly wiped out the beaches and sea life around Santa Barbara. It took years, but it is now a beautiful place again because much of the damage was reparable.

My greatest fear with the BP oil spill is that we do not have the technology to stop it, and the longer we wait the less likely it will be that we can save anything in that area or bring it back to life. Our land, our beaches, our seas and the life that depends on them belong to all of us. How will people tell their children or grandchildren that not only was it destroyed, but we let it be destroyed and let the corporation responsible behave like the thugs from Blackwater when they took over New Orleans after Katrina? Sometimes I am glad that I am old enough that in the natural course of things I will never know what the future holds. Right now it seems pretty grim.

[amborin]

66. agree; and despite the tragedy, new permits were granted for the gulf:

[Radical Activist]

71. People with no clue about what's happening often assume that nothing is happening. n/t

[Kablooie]

73. That's why it could be to the government's advantage to publicize their actions.

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tammywammy]

85. +1 n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

75. This is Obama's that time the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor.

[tranche]

93. This is Obama's Magnetic Field Reversal!

[greencharlie]

94. I fail to see how the best minds in the field...

can only come up with the idea to ram old tires, rocks and mud down the hole to stop the gusher. And it took them a month+ to think of it?

[WeDidIt]

99. This is Obama's Magical Mystery Tour n/t

[WeDidIt]

100. This is Obama's White Album n/t

[WeDidIt]

101. This is Obama's IV

[politicasista]

102. In a way, the Tennessee Floods was Obama's Katrina

it was FEMA involved and we had visits from Homeland, Commerce, HUD, and Small Business Administration.

Although many people (some of same Tennesseans who were screaming about "Big Gov'ment", "Socialism," et al.) wished that the president visited; however, the mayor did not feel slighted by the Administration saying that FEMA is doing a good job and Obama was getting briefed everyday.

[johnaries]

108. Actually, Gov Bredesen praised FEMA: "before the first drop fell"

Governor Bredesen was very pleased with the response from FEMA and from Obama. Not "Katrina", at all. Google is your friend.

[politicasista]

134. Oh. Ok

Google seems unsafe, but do remember that Bredesen was pleased with the response from FEMA and Obama. Personally, I was spared but some others we know were not.

Katrina like the Oil Spill happened on the Gulf Coast. Don't see how it compares with Katrina? Or me is missing something. :shrug:

[Rex]

104. It will not be Katrina, it will be bigger people worked

very hard to rebuild after Katrina, how do you rebuild a coast that is dead and won't be coming back for decades? Different kind of fish imo.

[Bluebear]

105. Dead fish.

:(

[Rex]

124. It will be a global travesty, the coast will never be the same if they can't

can't stop it.

[Major Hogwash]

130. It already IS a global travesty - the oil is in the "loop current", moving into the Atlantic Ocean

When "oil plumes" were found a mile deep or so last week, they were estimated to be as long as 10 miles long, 2 miles wide, and 300 feet thick - oil globs clinging to each other like a big, wet, shoestring deep in the Gulf of Mexico.
Dozens of them.

Those oil plumes are already starting to drift around the cape, or the horn (if you prefer)of Florida around and into the Florida Keys.

They not only need to stop the output from that broken "geyser" of a pipe - they need to suck up those oil plumes. Now, today.
Before the ocean currents along the eastern coastlines carry those oil plumes even farther up the eastern seaboard.

Once out into the Atlantic, they won't be able to reach those oil plumes to suck the oil plumes up into recovery ships because the water is much colder there, the oil plumes will sink farther down into the depths of the ocean, and the currents will carry them towards Europe!! As they approach Europe the wave action will begin to stir them causing them to begin to break up into smaller plumes that will rise to the top a little faster, and will cover their shores, just like what is happening here in the Gulf.

We are talking about 30 days of 3 million gallons of oil spewing into the Gulf.
This is a much larger disaster than the Exxon Valdez - 10 times larger.
So far!!

This leak is like a break in the geographical plate of the continental shelf, the oil is pressurized from the ocean floor itself!!!
That's why it is streaming out so fast.

It's like a volcano underwater -- of oil!!

[Rex]

132. Yeah I know, I am just trying to stay as positive as I can.

This looks like it will end badly for us all.

[Nikki Stone1]

110. In the long term, this will be worse than Katrina

BP needs to be banned from any and all offshore drilling.

[lonestarnot]

116. Way worse I'm afraid.

[EFerrari]

117. BP needs to be put out of business and ditto for any elected official

that continues to support them.

[Nikki Stone1]

120. Amen!

The cleanup should be done in such a way as to put them into complete bankruptcy.

[Bluebear]

127. +

[johnaries]

111. NO. There is NO comparison.

Katrina was a natural disaster, but we still had plenty of warning. In fact, a USN ship followed the hurricane to shore and remained ready to supply aid, but Bush never gave the order to allow them to help.

BP was a sudden man-made disaster. There was no warning. Further, BP promised to "fix" the problem. Obama dispatched government resources to help BP, but BP lied to us about... oh, EVERYTHING.

There is no comparison between Katrina and the BP fiasco. This has been stated and explained over, and over, and over again.

STOP spreading this lie. It's been discredited even in the M$M. To keep trying to perpetrate it does not speak well for you or your credibility.

[EFerrari]

119. The flooding in NOLA was a manmade disaster, not from the hurricane.

The Army Corpse of Engineers knew the levees were not built to spec and NOAA even threatened one of their techs that kept trying to warn people about it.

[johnaries]

121. What a ridiculous argument.

Why didn't the levees hold? Because of Katrina. Further, as you pointed out, everyone knew that there was a potential for the levees to fail.

In contrast, the Deepwater Horizon was completely unexpected. In fact, it should not have happened at all.

No comparison.

[EFerrari]

122. No, the levees were short-footed, fyi. They should have held had they been built to spec.

And yes, there were warnings about deep water rigs.

Oil industry failed to heed blowout warnings
17:57 10 May 2010 by Phil McKenna

The warnings were there a decade ago. Yet little has been done to address the risk of systems failure in deep-sea drilling operations.

As a consequence, millions of litres of oil have now spewed into the waters of the Gulf of Mexico. Why wasn't preventative action taken earlier?

The blast which tore through the Deepwater Horizon drill rig was caused by a blowout – a high-pressure ball of gas, mud and oil that shot up from the oil reservoir. Such sudden spikes in pressure should be controlled by a device known as a blowout preventer (BOP). In this case, however, it failed completely. With no other systems in place to prevent it, oil was free to pour from the open well head into the water.

And yet the risks posed by deep-sea operations – and specifically the potential impact of the failure of key systems – have long been understood. In 2000, the US Department of the Interior's Minerals Management Service (MMS) published a report warning that there were several difficulties connected with deep-water well control, that experience in this area was "limited" and with many rigs having very high oil production rates, a blowout could be "a potential show-stopper" for deep-water drilling in general. That may yet prove to be the case.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18881-oil-industry-failed-to-heed-blowout-warnings.html?DCMP=OTC-rss&nsref=online-news

I'm sorry, this doesn't make me happy in any way.

[johnaries]

123. Still, there is no comparison between the two. If you notice

Obama has started a huge restructuring of MMS. Which helps points out the difference between the 2 responses.

Bush ate McCain Birthday Cake, did photo ops, and pretended everything was ok.

Obama is taking action. Have you not been following the big "upsets" recently in MMS? You should really try listening to NPR. It's a Big Fucking Deal.

[Greyhound]

129. Since you apparently only woke up after Katrina, somebody should tell you that

New Orleans was drowned because the levies were inadequate when built, neglected for decades, and we were warned that they would not hold against a storm half Katrina's size when it hit. IOW, we knew that a storm was inevitable, we knew the levies would not hold, and we did nothing to prevent it and nothing for days afterward while people died needlessly.

We knew that working a mile below sea level is nearly impossible, we knew what minimum safety measures were required and we knew that BP/TO/Halliburton (and virtually every other energy company drilling off our shores) were not taking those measures. IOW, we allowed corporations to risk the utter devastation of an entire ecosystem so that they could squeeze a little more profit from us, and when their huge gamble turned up snake-eyes, in what has become his typical pattern, Obama left the perpetrators in charge of the clean-up, and guess what, they're going to clean up.
:eyes:

[Imagevision]

118. Obama knows if he sets new standards for BP? he'll have to do it to them all

[spanone]

135. ...