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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-10 04:14 PM
Original message
Thoughts on the Obama Administration’s Efforts to Control the Gulf Oil Spill
I’ve been disappointed by President Obama on many occasions, especially for what I see as excessive adherence to the mirage of “bipartisanship” and subservience to corporate interests. Yet despite that, and despite widespread criticism from the left of Obama’s handling of the Gulf oil spill, I am not fully convinced by some of the most serious criticisms – though I do agree with some of the important criticisms of his administration’s handling of this crisis.

I’ll start with some of the criticisms that I tend to agree with, and then I’ll discuss the most important criticism of all, which is that the Obama administration is leaving BP in charge of plugging the oil gush rather than taking a more direct active role in the effort.


The use of toxic dispersants to clean up the spill

Initially the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) claimed that it had no authority to tell BP what dispersants it could use in its efforts to clean up the oil spill. Then on May 20th they reversed course, telling BP that it had three days to stop using a dispersant that EPA data suggested was unnecessarily toxic. The EPA has also noted that “the long term effects on aquatic life are unknown”.

In fact, many or most scientists believe that dispersants shouldn’t be used at all, since the dispersants may be just as or more toxic to marine life as the oil itself. It seems to many that BP’s use of dispersants is more for public relations purposes – they prevent visible slicks of oil from washing up on shore – than for limiting the damage to marine life. Regarding a statement by Samantha Joye, professor of marine sciences at the University of Georgia:

The hazardous effects of the plume are two-fold. Joye said the oil itself can prove toxic to fish swimming in the sea, while vast amounts of oxygen are also being sucked from the water by microbes that eat oil. Dispersants used to fight the oil are also food for the microbes, speeding up the oxygen depletion.

According to Richard Charter, a foremost expert on marine biology and oil spills:

There is a chemical toxicity to the dispersant compound that in many ways is worse than oil. It’s a trade-off of trying to minimize the damage coming to shore, but in so doing you may be more seriously damaging the ecosystem offshore.

And equally disconcerting is the fact that “The exact makeup of the dispersants is kept secret under competitive trade laws”.

And to top it all off, it now appears that BP may not comply with EPA’s order to stop using their toxic dispersant. From an article titled, “BP says “NO” to EPA on switching dispersants: Who’s in Charge?”

We’re about to find out how this "BP is responsible for the spill and cleanup, but we’re responsible for oversight" concept works, because BP is apparently defying the Environmental Protection Agency’s order to find and use a different, less toxic and more effective dispersant.

All of this raises some very important and disturbing questions: Why did the EPA first claim that it had no authority to tell BP what dispersants it may use? Do they think that BP owns the Gulf? Do they think that they have no authority to regulate the pollution of our environment by private corporations, even in the face of a major crisis? What is the rationale for giving BP three days to stop (How long can it take to stop doing it)? What possible right does BP have to keep the makeup of chemicals that they spew into our oceans secret? It seems to me that all of this suggests an inappropriate subservience of our government to a private corporation.


Interference by BP against other organizations attempting to get information

BP has estimated that approximately 5,000 barrels of oil per day are gushing into the Gulf – and our government accepts those estimates. But independent scientists have estimated much higher rates, on the order of 5 to 16 times the BP/U.S. government estimates. Yet BP will not allow independent scientific measurement:

“The answer is no to that,” a BP spokesman, Tom Mueller, said on Saturday. “We’re not going to take any extra efforts now to calculate flow there at this point. It’s not relevant to the response effort, and it might even detract from the response effort.”

It’s not relevant to the response effort? Perhaps it is and perhaps it isn’t. I would certainly think that it could be relevant to future efforts to hold BP financially accountable for the disaster, however. And why should we take BP’s word that independent measurement might detract from the response effort? That doesn’t seem plausible. In any event, why should it be BP’s decision?

A similar issue is the question of who should be doing lab testing. BP has sent water samples to be tested at a Texas lab that does a lot of other work for BP. It has been pointed out that this represents a conflict of interest – that the Texas lab may be inclined to withhold findings that could be detrimental to BP’s financial health because of the ongoing business relationship between them.

In a matter as serious of this, what excuse is there to allow a potential conflict of interest to interfere with accurate testing?


Who’s in charge of plugging the oil gush – BP or our government?

The Obama administration has been widely criticized for not doing enough to control the damage, and particularly they have been criticized for allowing BP to be in charge of the attempts to plug the oil gush. Rob Kall, who runs OpEd News, and whose opinions I generally respect quite a bit, said “It is clear that administrators throughout the government have responded either incompetently or with bad faith, protecting or collaborating with BP.” James Carville said: “They're naive! BP is trying to save money… The government seems to be going along with it!...” Several others, including Chris Matthews, have said that our government should nationalize BP.

I don’t know whether nationalization of BP is legally possible. But it doesn’t seem to me that nationalization of BP is necessary. What is necessary is to nationalize the effort to contain this crisis. This crisis could catastrophically adversely affect the health of the Gulf of Mexico, the Atlantic Ocean, and a multitude of humans who depend on them for generations to come.

As has repeatedly been pointed out, there is no reason to trust that the private corporation that caused this catastrophe is more interested in resolving the crisis than they are in their own financial liability and profits. They have repeatedly been caught in lies. Moreover, there is a huge potential conflict of interest here: It may be that they are proceeding way too slowly with efforts to stop the oil gush because they are primarily worried about the possibility of permanently shutting down a source of oil that could reap tremendous profits for them. Indeed, it would be ridiculous of our government to trust them on this.

Yet there is one potentially legitimate reason for our government to give BP wide latitude in responding to the crisis: The response to this crisis involves highly technical issues. If BP is more capable of handling this situation than our government, or any other organization that our government might put in charge, that would be a good reason to let them handle it – with close monitoring by our government, of course. Indeed, that is the claim of White House Press Secretary, Robert Gibbs. In response to reporters’ questions, Gibbs said:

There's nothing that we think can and should be done that isn't being done. Nothing…
There are no powers of intervention that the federal government has available but has opted not to use.

That was also the response of Coast Guard Commandant Thad Allen:

He (Allen) and Coast Guard Adm. Mary Landry, the federal onsite coordinator, direct virtually everything BP does in response to the spill – and with a few exceptions have received full cooperation, Allen said….

Allen, the incident commander, said the main problem for federal responders is the unique nature of the spill – 5,000 feet below the surface with no human access… "Access to this well-site is through technology that is owned in the private sector," Allen said, referring to remotely operated vehicles and sensors owned by BP. Even so, the company has largely done what officials have asked, Allen said.

I could find nothing to refute these claims – though little to support them either.


Conclusion

There has been widespread disagreement on DU and from the U.S. left in general as to whether the Obama administration is doing everything it should to address one of the most severe environmental catastrophes our country has ever faced. Those who defend the Obama administration can and do point to many efforts that it has made. Among other things, they point out that it has sought advice from a team of independent scientists on how to stop the oil gush, it has made plans to appoint a special panel to study the issue, and it has tried to push Congress to greatly increase BP’s liability for the damage they’ve caused.

The most important criticism of the Obama administration’s efforts to control the crisis is that it has virtually delegated control of the situation to the private corporation that caused the crisis. This criticism should be taken very seriously, especially because BP has substantial potential conflicts of interest regarding the effort to stop the oil gush, which could cause it to sabotage its own efforts. There is very good reason for our government to be highly suspicious of them.

Yet, of all the criticisms to this effect that I have read, none has proposed an alternative solution to allowing BP substantial leeway in dealing with the crisis. That begs the question: Is the Obama administration justified in relying so heavily on BP’s supposed expertise in this matter? Critics have suggested that it should be relying much more on input from other oil companies, rather than from BP alone. Obama’s defenders have suggested that we don’t really know to what extent the Obama administration has relied on expertise outside of BP. It seems to me impossible to come to a definitive conclusion on this issue at this time.

I have expressed serious disappointment with the way President Obama handled the Wall St. bailout, health care reform, and the withholding of information from the American public on Bush administration torture of terrorist suspects. I’ve criticized his continuation of the Afghanistan War. I’ve expressed bitter disappointment over his failure to hold the Bush administration accountable for its war crimes. I’m very disappointed about his administration’s efforts to privatize primary education in our country, as repeatedly pointed out by madfloridian. I am chilled by the recent revelations of William Greider, whom I greatly suspect, of Obama’s behind-the-scenes efforts to privatize Social Security. And it is relevant that prior to the Gulf oil spill, Obama announced his decision to approve offshore oil drilling that he had specifically denounced during his campaign for President. To me, all of these things suggest excessive reluctance to challenge powerful corporate interests. For all these reasons and more, I believe that Americans should be wary of the Obama administration’s relationship with Big Oil.

However I see no definitive evidence that the Obama administration’s heavy reliance on BP to stop the oil gush isn’t necessary to a large degree because of the lack of viable alternatives for handling a highly unique crisis for which there is little or no precedence. This is without question a very complex and difficult issue.

I am very concerned about the Obama administration’s heavy dependence upon BP for the resolution of this crisis. Our government should not put its trust in private corporations to do what is right for our country and its people – especially a corporation that has already proven its bad faith. But it also appears to me that for the time being our government will have to rely heavily on the private sector to address this crisis – at least until it develops sufficient expertise of its own.

That should be the intermediate- and long-term plan. We have long had a Public Health Service that features the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) to address our nation’s public health needs. There is no reason why we shouldn’t have a comparable agency to address our environmental health needs. Until we do we'll continue to run the risk of being held hostage to private corporations that wish to use our planet for their own private waste disposal.
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Lerkfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-10 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
1. I rec'd this very thoughtful thread only to have it come to zero
so sorry about that. It deserves to be reccommended.
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Ruby the Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-10 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. K&R
I wish I could rec this over and over. I would just sit for the next hour and click.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-10 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. eh?
We should let BP go about its ways because who else would clean up this mess?

And we should lay off Obama because he wasn't ready for this?

I don't think so. Nope, not gonna do it.

BP is rightly under attack, and so is the incompetent government. Obama is heading up the govt.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-10 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. That's not what I'm saying
I'm certainly not saying to lay off Obama. His feet should be held to the fire, as should BP's. BP should be watched very closely, and so should our government.

I'm just saying that BP should be used for whatever they can contribute. They've had some ideas for stopping the oil gush. I would be very hesitant to say that we shouldn't let them try those ideas, unless there are scientists saying that they shouldn't be tried because they are likely to be harmful or because there are better ideas that should be tried first. I haven't heard that -- yet. Better to let them try something and risk failing than to do nothing -- unless we have credible scientific opinion saying that it shouldn't be done. I believe that our government needs to hear from as many credible scientists on this issue as are available. If the only ones offering opinions on how to stop this are the oil companies, then what else can you do but let them try their ideas? -- though certainly I would accept the opinions of independent scientists over those of the oil company who created this problem, all other things being equal.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-10 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. I say this, again
From the day it went down the CG and BP said it was a minor spill.

The next day it was 1, 000 gallons. The next it was 1,000 barrels.
Then it was 5,000 barrels for weeks.
Suddenly, a scientist finally gets a look at the scene, and only because a liberal congressman, Markey, gets BP to let a camera feed go live. Weeks late. Where was the Obama administration? Eh? Where were they when Markey stood tall?

So, a scientist gets a look, and, oh shit, the lie becomes all too evident.
But the lie is still repeated.!!!

I could go on. I am tired. Look, T4C, we have been around. Its time to call the bs for what it is, and we quit eating any of it. Send it back, and order the unvarnished truth.

We still don't have the truth.

Please, I beg you. Raise hell!! They hear us when we raise hell!!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-10 04:26 PM
Response to Original message
2. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-10 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. you didn't read it
Edited on Mon May-24-10 04:39 PM by HughMoran
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Ruby the Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-10 04:31 PM
Response to Original message
3. Well done!
K&R

My two biggies and you nailed 'em both. The chemicals they are dumping into the water and the blocking of access to independent scientists to find out what in holy hell is going on down there.

On these, I hold the administration responsible. They have every right to tell BP to stand the fuck down, give the proper academia/government resources access to this site and to not drop one more ounce of Corexit into the Gulf.
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-10 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
6. Great post and thanks for including the links
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freddie mertz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-10 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
8. K & R. Back up to 5.
This is so very reasonable and balanced.

Thanks for the effort, and I hope more will actually READ IT THROUGH before knee-jerking it.
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-10 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
9. Fair analysis
I've said much the same WRT to expertise and alternatives.
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Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-10 05:28 PM
Response to Original message
11. Why do you feel the need to so excessively highlight your myriad criticisms of this administration?
Do you feel that your premise that the administration is doing all it can will not be taken seriously unless you point out how critical and disappointed you've been with this administration so far?

That says alot about this web site and the "left" that you referenced so frequently in your piece, does it not??

My comment is not a criticism of your piece in any way. I just found your repeated need to highlight your critiques interesting.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-10 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. DU's version of 'street cred'
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-10 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. He doesn't want to be thrown under the bus as a kool-aid drinker.
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inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-10 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #11
19. Why do you feel the need to be so excessively defensive of this administration?

And why do you feel the need to rely on ad hominems and attack the messenger instead of discussing the points that the author makes?



K&R to the OP for the well-thought through and informative post.
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Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-10 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #19
27. lol And why am I not at all surprised that you would be the only person to try and twist what I said
You really need to find something else to do with yourself.
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inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-10 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. You don't even make sense. Bye.
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Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-10 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. You must have been looking in the mirror when you typed this.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-10 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #19
33. Thank you Inna
Another reason why I think that my previous criticisms of the Obama administration are relevant is that if Obama had been a more progressive president, and especially if he hadn't broken a number of his progressive promises, I think that liberals in general would be giving him more benefit of the doubt with regard to his handling of the Gulf oil crisis.

Anyhow, I didn't feel attacked by what Number23 said.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-10 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #11
21. I think that what you have to say about this is generally correct
I have been very critical of the Obama administration. Yet I believe that in response to the current crisis some have been too quick to criticize, without thinking hard enough what could have been done differently. I also think that many have been too quick to give Obama a free pass. So yes, if I point out my past criticisms (which I believe have been reasonable) it would make some things that I say here more credible.

Also, I think that what I've had to say in the past about this administration have relevance to the current crisis. I think that all politicians should be judged not only on the basis of current actions, but on how all of their actions come together to make a complete picture. For example, I certainly think that Obama's recent announcement that he planned to approve offshore drilling that he campaigned against should color the way that we look at the current situation -- should cause us to view with a critical eye the question of whether he is being too subservient to BP's interests.
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Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-10 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #21
28. Thanks for this.
Judging by your links, I would say that your criticisms are definitely reasonable and well thought out, qualities sorely lacking on this web site. (See Post #19) I also think that this particular OP is balanced, well written and reasonable as well.

I just think that it is sad that a space in the arena of political discussion has become so rabid in its reflexive need to castigate the President that even well-thought out and beautifully explained positions in support of presidential policy have to have three times as much evidence of criticism in order for the support to be taken seriously. And this on a "Democratic" web site, too...
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 05:21 AM
Response to Reply #28
38. Thank you. I need to clarify something
I don't think that the "reflexive need to catigate the President" is prevalent here. It exists to some extent, but I don't think it's prevalent. The good majority of criticism of Obama that I've seen on this site has been justified IMO -- though not always well explained.

While I acknowledge that noting my past criticisms of Obama was likely to make my semi-justification (or ambivalence) of his current policies more credible in some eyes, I also feel that they have relevance to the current situation, for which reason they warrant mention. As noted, many of us liberals have been very disappointed in many of his policies, and especially his broken campaign promises. If not for those many disappointments, we would probably judge his actions in the current situation much more leniently. As I tried to convey in the OP, though I believe that it cannot be proven that BP's heavy involvement in trying to solve this crisis has been harmful, I nevertheless believe that it should be viewed with deep suspicion -- for a number of reasons, including the fact that Obama has been too subservient to corporate interests on a number of occasions in the past. I just don't think that we have enough information on the situation at this time to fully judge it, but I do believe that suspicion of BP's actions are well justified.
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Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #38
52. "I don't think that the "reflexive need to catigate the President" is prevalent here."
On this point and the point that much of the criticism of the President here is "justified," we will have to agree to COMPLETELY disagree. :)
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-10 06:00 PM
Response to Original message
14. Fair enough.
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-10 06:06 PM
Response to Original message
15. On the BP thing, he's being too laid back.
He's giving the appearance of not being on top of events and people are starting to perceive a power vacuum which Jindal appears to be using to his advantage; something he couldn't do if Obama would just step up to the plate. The idea of waiting till BP gets another well drilled in August is far too long to wait for the health of the Gulf and the people living on the Gulf.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 07:43 AM
Response to Reply #15
39. I agree.
I have never cared for what seems to me to be an excessively laid back style, which includes what I consider to be excessive efforts to obtain "bipartisan" consensus on everything, even when it is crystal clear that Republican Congresspersons will not be satisfied no matter what he does.

To be fair to him, I think it's fair to say that due to a whole lot of residual racism in this country, in order to be politically viable he had to be very careful not to appear as an "angry black man". Exhibiting anger at the opposition party may be fine for Harry Truman or other white presidents, but if a black president comes across as angry it would scare some people. That said, I still don't like it. There is an awful lot to be angry about, and I don't like to see a U.S. president acting so laid back about such serious issues.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-10 06:22 PM
Response to Original message
17. The minute the Feds "take over"
Edited on Mon May-24-10 06:24 PM by Karenina
BP gets to externalize MUCH of the costs to the taxpayer. They're trying to secure a judicial venue in HOUSTON as I type.

The Nation is (supposedly) governed by LAWS. Like CERCLA.
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-10 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. They (BP) will dump the expense on the taxpayer any way.
Edited on Mon May-24-10 06:24 PM by cornermouse
One way or another. Directly or indirectly. They have the lobbyists. We don't.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-10 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #17
30. It would be great if BP is penalized severely for this.
I'm afraid that the probability of that isn't very high, though. :(
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-10 06:25 PM
Response to Original message
20. What efforts?
Oh, you mean the mix-message jawboning coming from DC? Rotsa ruck with that.
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-10 06:30 PM
Response to Original message
22. Obama's "indep't panel" on oil spill: look who's on it: Poppy Bush's William Reilly:
No Subpoenas, and:


http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2010/05/22/the-epas-history-of-william-reilly/

Perhaps most telling, though, are the lessons in a report for President Poppy Bush on the Exxon Valdez spill completed under Reilly and then-Transportation Secretary Samuel Skinner’s guidance two months after the spill (that’s a picture of Reilly at the cleanup site–the picture above is Reilly at the Kuwait oil fires during Poppy Bush’s Saddam war). I expect he’ll write something similar for Obama’s commission six months from now.

•Preparedness must be strengthened. Exxon was not prepared for a spill of this magnitude–nor were Alyeska, the State of Alaska, or the federal government. It is clear that the planning for and response to the Exxon Valdez incident was unequal to the task. Contingency planning in the future needs to incorporate realistic worst-case scenarios and to include adequate equipment and personnel to handle major spills. Adequate training in the techniques and limitations of oil spill removal is critical to the success of contingency planning. Organizational responsibilities must be clear, and personnel must be knowledgeable about their roles. Realistic exercises that fully test the response system must be undertaken regularly. The National Response Team is conducting a study of the adequacy of oil spill contingency plans throughout the country under the leadership of the Coast Guard.

•Response capabilities must be enhanced to reduce environmental risk. Oil spills–even small ones–are difficult to clean up. Oil recovery rates are low. Both public and private research are needed to improve cleanup technology. Research should focus on mechanical, chemical, and biological means of combating oil spills. Decision-making processes for determining what technology to use should be streamlined, and strategies for the protection of natural resources need to be rethought.

•Some oil spills may be inevitable. Oil is a vital resource that is inherently dangerous to use and transport. We therefore must balance environmental risks with the nation’s energy requirements. The nation must recognize that there is no fail-safe prevention, preparedness, or response system. Technology and human organization can reduce the chance of accidents and mitigate their effects, but may not stop them from happening. This awareness makes it imperative that we work harder to establish environmental safeguards that reduce the risks associated with oil production and transportation. The infrequency of major oil spills in recent years contributed to the complacency that exacerbated the effect of the Exxon Valdez spill.

•Legislation on liability and compensation is needed. The Exxon Valdez incident has highlighted many problems associated with liability and compensation when an oil spill occurs. Comprehensive U.S. oil spill liability and compensation legislation is necessary as soon as possible to address these concerns.

•The United States should ratify the International Maritime Organization (IMO) 1984 Protocols. Domestic legislation on compensation and liability is needed to implement two IMO protocols related to compensation and liability. The United States should ratify the 1984 Protocols to the 1969 Civil Liability and the 1971 Fund Conventions. Expeditious ratification is essential to ensure international agreement on responsibilities associated with oil spills around the world.

•Federal planning for oil spills must be improved. The National Contingency Plan (NCP) has helped to minimize environmental harm and health impacts from accidents. The NCP should, however, continue to be reviewed and improved in order to ensure that it activates the most effective response structure for releases or spills, particularly of great magnitude. Moreover, to the assure expeditious and well-coordinated response actions, it is critical that top officials–local, state, and federal–fully understand and be prepared to implement the contingency plans that are in place.

•Prevention is the first line of defense. Avoidance of accidents remains the best way to assure the quality and health of our environment. We must continue to take steps to minimize the probability of oil spills.
•Studies of the long-term environmental and health effects must be undertaken expeditiously and carefully. Broad gauge and carefully structured environmental recovery efforts, including damage assessments, are critical to assure the eventual full restoration of Prince William Sound and other affected areas.
Again, I include this not because I think Reilly is a bad choice: Obama seems to have found one of the rare remaining Republicans who cares about the environm
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-10 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #22
29. "We therefore must balance environmental risks with the nation’s energy requirements."
It's been a long time since that report was written.

Any report now that failed to mention that we also must consider in the balance the damage to our planet from adding more greenhouse gases to the atmosphere should not be taking seriously.

Thanks for the information.
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hay rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-10 06:32 PM
Response to Original message
23. Endured my first "Obama's Katrina" conversation today.
It was mercifully short and came from a very predictable source. My brief remarks were 1) I don't think the federal government has the necessary expertise to do very much more on its own, and 2) I think the Deep Horizon disaster will be viewed in part, and with some justice, in the context of Obama's recent decision to expand offshore drilling.
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-10 06:32 PM
Response to Original message
24. K & R nt
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-10 06:33 PM
Response to Original message
25. k&r
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backtomn Donating Member (424 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-10 06:36 PM
Response to Original message
26. Sorry to burst your bubble, but......
The government has no idea how to handle this issue, that is why they are letting BP handle it. Here is a quote from the head of the Coast Guard.........Admiral Thad Allen: "To push BP out of the way would raise the question, replace them with what?"

Apparantly, it is convenient to continue blaming them and to use them as a whipping boy. Other than that, there are no new ideas.

Hold BP accountable (as well as the owner of the rig) and maybe we can ask scientists for some ideas, but we can quit waiting for the government to fix this.

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indepat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-10 08:31 PM
Response to Original message
34. I'll say this only once or perhaps a few dozen times more: every one of junior's
initiatives, actions, and policies were solely designed to implement an extreme RW PNAC agenda of pre-emptive war et al and as such were wholly corrupted from the git-go. Moreover, most governmental agencies, including the military, were tasked with implementing that extreme ideology rather than performing their congressionally-mandated missions and further, were stuffed with ideologues to get the job done. Therefore, every initiative, action, and policy continued/ratified by this administration is likely to have been a self-defeating mistake which will likely come back to metaphorically bite them in the ass, as will the failure to rid agencies of entrenched ideologues at an early date, as this unprecedented catastrophe in the Gulf demonstrates. Please make my day by proving me wrong. :D
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-10 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. Oh, yes. Boy, do I agree with that.
There is a piece of this that isn't about Obama himself in any way at all. Any one would have to deal with the shambles left in Bush's wake.

But the piece of this that belongs completely to this administration is the failure to fumigate our regulatory agencies. If it is indeed a failure and not just a co-opting of the rot there.

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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-10 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. I think you're right on target about the need to rid our agencies of entrenched ideologues.
I would have liked to see much more clearing out of Bush personnel -- and policies.
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-10 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
36. Rec'd if just for the thoughtfulness and gut-wrenching honesty n/t
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 07:54 AM
Response to Original message
40. I agree with everything, except -
I just don't trust BP one whit. And I think Obama's making a mistake IF he's doing that. I'm not sure he is, and I'm waiting for his press conf Thursday to see.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #40
42. I don't trust them either
But that doesn't mean that they don't have some areas of expertise that can help out in this crisis.
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 08:16 AM
Response to Original message
41. In the end, it's mostly semantics
Obama, personally, doesn't know diddly about oil wells or drilling. Within the government, right now, there are people who know more, but not more than the experts at BP. The organizational structure of BP is established and functions. Conceivably the best way to "use" that structure is to leave it in place. The concept of "taking charge" or "nationalizing" at this point is as much semantics as it is a reality. All the same people will be involved, it will just be a matter of who has what title.

There are 3 aspects to this problem, and each of them calls for a slightly different set of semantics and titles.

1) Plugging the hole.

This is going to be in essence an oil industry task. Obama himself can sit in the room and make the "tough choices" but he probably isn't the best person to be making them. Maybe someone from the Army Corps, I don't know. But I"m dubious that BP is interested in much more than getting the hole plugged soon.

2) Clean up/Containment

There is an interest in keeping BP involved and responsible here. However, especially because "local knowledge" can be so important, both in terms of containment and in terms of clean up, it might be better taken out of BP's hands, and merely sending them the bill. I don't envy the guy that DOES have to "herd the cats" on this effort, because it will involve multiple govenors and municipalities. But to believe that BP is some how uniquely qualified to handle this is dubious at best.

3) Information/coordination.

Item 2 needs infomration and that must be coming from "credible" sources and it must be timely. Truth is, credible information about #1 needs to be disemminated so that people can make reasonable plans about the near and long term future. I'm not sure who is best at this, the government has innummerable "public affairs" offices. But again, my guess is that BP doesn't have any corner on this capacity and may in fact be the least capable.

In the end, a better job of #3 would have, and will have, the effect of reducing the speculation and complaints about 1 and 2. Empowering local leaders to at least participate in #2 would take some pressure off as well. A touch of honesty right up front about the likelyhood of any of these "quick" fixes to actually stop the flow of oil wouldn't have hurt either.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #41
50. I agree with what you are saying but want to add this:
Obama doesn't know much about the oil industry. And therefore, maybe before he went all "Let's drill offshore, Baby," he might have checked to see what the worst case scenarios might be and start taking measures to fill in the gaps.

Now even if he had done that, it wouldn't have changed the fate of this Oil Spill. This Oil Spill occurred a mere eighteen days after his "Drilling offshore" speech.

but it would have let us as citizens believe in our President. As it stands now, it appears to me that although he came into office after what was the Worst Administration to hold office ever, and as that Worst Admin held office for eight years, yet he didn't bother to check things over. Most of us do major reviews if we take over possession of a used car from someone not known for expertise in car mechanics.

So shouldn't Obama be taking the time to demand that his agencies' people review what needs to be done in terms of overall safety for the citizens and the planet especially with regards to nuclear power and the oil industry? And to shore up any loopholes and gaping problems?
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. The fallicy of looking forward
I tend to agree with you. And I think the problem is related to his attitude about "looking forward, not backwards". When you take over a failing program, it is often necessary to review what has transpired to date in order to see what corners were cut and what can be done to "right the ship". A "top to bottom" review is in order for most departments. You don't HAVE to overturn everything you find that you don't like. But you should at least CHOOSE to not fix things, instead of just closing your eyes and moving on.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-26-10 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #51
54. Not to accuse you of plagiarism, but I posted about the guiding philosophy of
Pres Obama being so "Let' s move forward, not look back" and basically said what you said, maybe three or four days ago...

Maybe great minds think alike!?!
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-26-10 07:33 AM
Response to Reply #54
55. So we're in violent agreement
I've never thought that the solution to past mistakes was to ignore them.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-26-10 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #55
58. Yep, we violently AGREE
Edited on Wed May-26-10 04:32 PM by truedelphi
:-)

If we had a decent media, they would pick up on our President's words of wisdom and analyze them as you and I have. This is not a statement to be proud of: "Forward thinking good, review of recent past BAD."

It reminds me of something --

Oh yes, the inane mottoes offered up to the citizenry in "Animal Farm."

"Four legs good, Two legs bad."

But there is one thing our President doesn't have to worry about -that any one in the news will attempt to do decent rational analysis of things he says.

They will pick on him for putting mustard not catsup on his sandwich, but not whether or not there is any logic in his statements remains off the the Big Media's purview.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-26-10 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #50
56. Yes, definitelty
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 09:43 AM
Response to Original message
43. I don't agree with your conclusions this time.
By leaving the disaster to BP we conceded to their definition of a good result. Since as a corporation BP are required to maximize profit and externalize costs their definition of a successful result may have been to focus first on salvaging the project and saving as much oil as they can. From what we've seen this is obvious that's what they've been doing.

If we had taken charge (see the definition of maritime jurisdiction http://www.gc.noaa.gov/gcil_maritime.html on jurisdiction) we could have defined OUR desired result: plugging the hole ASAP and saving the Gulf as quickly and as much as possible. And by taking charge we could have contracted the necessary skills if we didn't have them (the Federal government is well experienced in this) directed the action to a result WE DEFINED and not had to have relied on a foreign corporation focused on their own entirely different result. to run the catastrophe response.

As a sovereign state we did not have to rely on a corporation (with their own entirely different allegience and desire) to direct the response.

This was an epic mistake. If Obama had relied on real science advisiors rather than engineers (they should be in charge of plugging the hole, not in charge of what determines the scope of the response) perhaps he would not have made it.

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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #43
44. I didn't mean to give the impression that we should allow BP to be in charge
I fully agree that, as noted in the OP, there are huge potential conflicts of interest.

What I am saying is that it appears that BP (along with other private oil companies) probably has areas of expertise that could be very useful in attempts to resolve this crisis. The tricky part is to find a way to utilize that expertise without relinquishing control.

As for "We could have defined OUR desired result...", do we know that that hasn't been done. Do we know whether or not the Obama administration has done everything it should to contract the necessary skills. I'm not sure. I suspect, as you do, that it may have given too much control to BP. But I'm not sure, because I don't know what stones it has left unturned out of subservience to BP. Do we know that Obama hasn't "relied on real science advisors"? If we know that, how do we know it? Most important, are there ideas that credible scientists have on how to handle this that aren't being tried? If so, why haven't we heard from these scientists?

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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #44
45. Obama did put together a scientific commission mid-May
But that was after reading about a letter signed by many scientists objecting to the lack of information coming from BP. Don't have a link but it may've been NRDC or PEER. Still, creating a team was a necessary move but there are still a lot of complaints on BP's transparency, even coming from the White House. My point is they should have been called in immediately and given authority over the entire response, including the Coast Guard.

IMO every attempt by BP until today has been an effort to salvage the hole either for later use or to siphon off the oil (rather than immediately plugging the hole with this kill shot, which they are finally attempting more than a month into the catastrophe). It is my opinion, my only evidence is seeing them lie repeatedly about the volume of the spill, looking at what they have admitted to doing to resolve it, and understanding that as a corporation BP is legally obliged to their shareholders to maximize their own profit and our government is legally obliged to protect their resouces and citizens.

Knowing their different motives and desired results, they should clearly be two different entities. And their difference should be very clearly stated.

Do we agree that BP should not be in charge, that the government can hire the expertize it needs and that scientists working for the government (coordinated Fed, State and international), including ecologists and ocean physicists, should be in charge and clearly communicating their actions with citizens?
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #45
46. Yes, we basically agree on what you say in the last paragraph of your post
The only thing is that, as pointed out by a poster in this thread, there are semantic complexities to the term "in charge". When one lacks the required expertise, one might be "in charge" (as the Obama administration claims to be) formally, while in practice those with the most expertise are "in charge".

I don't know the extent of expertise on this subject in the outside world. I'm not convinced that the Obama administration hasn't availed itself of all the expertise that it can, though I suspect that it hasn't. I certainly share your suspicians of BP. Transparency with the scientific community and public should be demanded.
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #46
47. It's a start, I'll take it!
I have read that both the Russians and Iranians claim to have successfully dealt with similiar situations. I would like to believe our government is not politically opposed to gathering information from them as well.

You really don't agree that corporations are legally required to maximize profits and that governments are legally required to protect resources and citizens? And that both entities would have different motives and goals?
Or are you saying that is a given but it isn't proven that BP is in charge of the response.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. I do agree that BP is probably more interested in maximizing profits than in the consequences of
Edited on Tue May-25-10 12:37 PM by Time for change
this disaster to our country or the world.

I've read numerous times that corporations are legally required to maximize profits. But I'm not certain to what extent that applies. Does that mean that they are required to kill people and ruin environments to maximize profits? How obvious can their killing of people be, with no clear excuse, before that would over-ride their responsibilities to maximize profits? Surely there must be a limit to their legal repsonsibility to maximize profits. I'm not sure to what extent that has been spelled out or tested in the courts.

I do agree that BP and and the American people (who are supposed to be represented by our government) have different goals, which is what I meant when I referred to the "conflict of interest" in the OP. That is a major problem, and is a predominent reason why BP shouldn't be "in charge". Yet to the extent that they have expertise in matters that are unavailable elsewhere (and I don't know to what extent that applies) certain responsibilities may have to be delegated to them.

Ultimately, the phrase "in charge" means that the entity that is in charge has veto power over the actions of everyone else. The Obama administration claims to be "in charge", though to what extent that is true is unclear. In certain respects, as noted in the OP, they have appeared NOT to be in charge. To the extent that is the case, it should not be allowed to stand.

Edited to add: that there are also probably a number of areas on which the goals of BP and the American public coincide. Certainly, from a public relations standpoint, they very much want to be seen as being responsible and caring and competent. To that extent, certainly they must want to successfully do something that would cause them to be seen as resolving this crisis. And who knows, there are probably human elements within BP who actually care about minimizing the damage to our environment and its marine life.
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. They are aware of the benefits of PR and spending money on it as long as it appears to
Edited on Tue May-25-10 01:24 PM by glitch
benefit the bottom line, even spending nominal amounts on real projects to improve their image. The minute it's no longer perceived as necessary clean public image projects get dropped. Their benign actions are minimal while their real actions have always bordered on sociopathic, sometimes crossing far over that border (see http://truthout.org/slick-operator-the-bp-ive-known-too-well59178 and http://www.chelseagreen.com/content/greg-palast-bp-lied-then-and-theyre-lying-now/ Palast's articles on BP and the Valdez spill, the safety measures they repeatedly ignored in the refinery explosion that killed 15 and injured over 170, and now this).

I do think there is a limit to their legal responsibility to maximize profits but I believe that limit is not defined so they will constantly test it, and as long as no one holds them accountable that limit will never be defined.
They have no internal regulator.
If they did there would be no such thing as mountain-top removal, or coal mine disasters, or refinery explosions, or tritium leaks, or stiffing Alaskans on Valdez, or lawyers fighting OSHA http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/business/energy/6695722.html, or not putting a $500k blowout preventer on a billion dollar oil rig.

They skirt the line because there are no costs and few benefits to them to toeing it. Shareholders for the most part turn a blind eye until something really, really bad happens like Bhopal or the WR Grace asbestos suit. IOW something that directly affects their profitability. There are numerous examples, and not all corporation behave this way, but the extractive ones have been encouraged to do so. The admission that the regulatory agencies were waiving environmental reviews rather than execute the law and continue to issue permits in the wake of this disaster makes this point better than I can. The thing speaks for itself.

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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-26-10 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #49
57. I basically am with you on all that
I've discussed this problem in a similar vein on several occasions:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=6205149
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=2809763
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=3339647
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=6769019

So I certainly didn't mean to give the impression that our government should trust to BP's good intentions. Nor do I at all think that they should be "in charge" of anything relating to our environment. Ensuring a safe and healthy environment is a government responsibility, not something to be left to private corporate interests. It's just that I question the recommendations to take BP out of the picture when nobody is able to recommend a specific alternative solution for dealing with this crisis.

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Dr.Phool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 09:48 PM
Response to Original message
53. The video BP doesn't want you to see: Cousteau
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x538198


It shows the effects of the dispersants. Breaks it dow into small toxic droplets below the surface. Out of sight, out of mind.
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