To DU men: if artifical wombs existed would you carry a fetus to term?

[joshcryer]

Say we had the technology to have artifical wombs. We already know how to coerce eggs into acting as sperm, to an extent: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthenogenesis

So theoretically same sex couples could have children (while I imagine lesbians could carry a baby there could be health benefits to not actually carrying and having the fetus exist in an artifical womb). Males could have the same benefits that females do in being able to carry a child, and all in all the reproductive consequences would be groundbreaking.

My question is whether or not males here would actually carry a fetus to term (assuming they wanted a child), or if the idea is just totally foreign to them. I personally think it would be cool, to be able to have a baby. Men are not averse to childcare, in my opinion, it is just a cultural thing. The Aka males, for example, spend 49% of a childs life with the child (to the point of even having the child suck their nipples for comfort! That was a new one to me when I learned of that!). And I think they are just as capable of caring for a fetus. The only think lacking is the right technology or plumbing for this to be the case.

Why *wouldn't* you want this?

[xchrom]

1. i'm not paternal -- at all. -- or maternal -- contrary to popular opinion.

[joshcryer]

15. LOL, I went to the site in your sig. Beautiful. Simply beautiful.

Second, for a young woman who has never engaged in sexual intercourse, having anal sex allows her to preserve her virginity (i.e., maintain an intact hymen) until marriage.

I've used that line before, too. :P No, it didn't work.

[xchrom]

71. ok -- i'm in stitches here -- you are a bad boy -- isn't that site wonderful?!?

people are so wacky.

[dsc]

2. If I found a good husband why not?

I wouldn't want to be the first one but if I knew it worked, yep.

[joshcryer]

5. I think it'd be awesome dsc.

I'm trying to think of downsides, but I can't.

[MasonJar]

3. I said weeks ago that men should have to carry babies to full term

if they are going to insist women do it. Science needs to come up with a method asap.

[joshcryer]

8. Science is always behind when it comes to male reproductive rights, imo.

I mean, for real, where the hell is male birth control already. Sheesh

[Donnachaidh]

12. not JUST carry -- deliver in the natural manner as well.

Carrying is only part of the experience.

[joshcryer]

14. Pfft. Not fair.

I don't think anyone would do it if it required a complete plumbing overhaul. Think progress, darnit! No more labor pains, no more hormonal crap.

[Donnachaidh]

21. pfft? I'm sorry - then you think carrying a fetus is a game?

You only want the "fun" part? Gee, and here I was thinking this was a serious debate. :eyes:

[joshcryer]

23. If we had artifical wombs I would bet a lot of females would use them, too.

Technology, progress, it makes things easier, it makes things better, you know?

[RC Quake]

95. Absolutely!

I'm infertile and the number 1 priority in my life was to have a child. Also, since I'm getting my reproductive organs yanked out next month, this would be great!

[RedCappedBandit]

99. Serious debate?

then perhaps the fact that it would be impossible for a male to give birth to a living child should be presented.

[rasputin1952]

25. But some pretty wild hormonal challenges that would have to

be monitored and adjusted on a nanoscale to keep the fetus alive and viable...not to mention a form of cesarean or other surgery to deliver the child...w/o a birth canal delivery would be kind of "interesting".

While this might make for some halfway decent fictionalization...the big question is why go through the effort, since the way to reproduce has been doing pretty good for eons..:)

It might be easier to look into budding, and other than the natural notion to cringe at that, it works fine for some forms of life...:D

[joshcryer]

32. Think handy bag. :)

There are a lot of ways to go about doing this, but with stem cell research we ought to be able to perfect the perfect uterus and placenate, place it in an organically friendly bag, and caring for the baby would be like nursing babies now. Only on a much more refined scale. It's actually not requiring of super magical technology, just the ability to keep a given organ alive.

But sure, hormonal changes could be used, who knows. I think any approach would attempt to minimize them, though.

[rasputin1952]

43. Well one of the aspects of being female is being able to

have the body create and maintain specific levels of hormones that keep the fetus alive. Besides, a 'handbag' approach would kind of make the whole thing kind of sci-fi...why not just have some jars w/amniotic fluid in a lab?

Like I said, this might make for some great fictionalization...but what would really be the purpose, except to have a minuscule %age of the population try this?

Call me old fashioned, but part of the "good" of procreation is the process it takes...:D

[joshcryer]

47. 'cause lab babies are boring. And we nurture our offspring from the onset.

So artifical wombs seem like the least scary way to go about it. If technology were to ever go in that direction I'm sure it'd start off as lab experiments, but I doubt it'd catch on if the sourgate couldn't spend the term of the pregnancy 'with' the child.

[rasputin1952]

49. LOL...Gotta love the cut and dried...

:D

[joshcryer]

51. :P

:P

[jbnow]

46. The hormonal part would just be

tricky the first few months, after that the fetus would demand and the body respond-men and women both have male and female hormones and babies are the boss once the pregnancy is underway.

Way back in January 86 Omni had an article about male pregnancy saying it was absolutely possible and they'd already done it with small mammals.

The fertilized egg can be implanted on the intestine, as sometimes accidentally happens with women. That's not a big problem with the pregnancy itself but there would be a pretty high chance (I vaguely remember it being 10 to 20%)of bleeding to death after delivery. The uterus is good at stopping the bleeding after the placenta detaches, the intestine is not.

The article talked a lot about the hormonal issue and about prior experiments with animals. He assumed that it would be tried on humans by some rogue doctor, not because it should be but just because it could be.

[joshcryer]

48. Wow, that's awesome. I'm going to have to read more about this.

So males and females have similar hormonal mechanisms? What? Maybe guys could have pregnancy level hormones. It'd certainly make the technology easier to attain (consider the artifical womb seeping off of the males hormones).

[uppityperson]

67. Hormones. Females are closest, hormonally, to males, pre-menstrual.

PMS is the natural state of males, hormonally.

[rasputin1952]

54. I would think that the intestinal tract would be a pretty tough

place to mature a fetus.

All kinds of things come into play, not the least of which are intestinal flora and fauna. Then we get back to delivery, the most obvious, birth via the colon/anus as the birth canal is kind of odd; cesarean would be an option. Physiology plays an important part as well, the female hip structure is designed w/a larger opening to accommodate birth, and although the cartilage in the pubis is more able to articulate, there is still a lot going on during birth, to include a separation of cartilage bone.

I'd kind of have some trouble introducing my son/daughter as "this is _____ he/she was born an asshole...:(

[jbnow]

98. Not inside the intestines of course!

It would be implanted outside of it in the peritoneal cavity. It's a bad situation when it happens (in a woman) and if discovered is ended promptly. The longer it goes the greater the risk of catastrophic hemorrhage for the mother. It's also bad for the baby because the uterus is nicely built to expand, unlike the constricted environment outside of it.

I haven't read about it for many years now but the pregnancy is often lost very early...the placenta just doesn't attach well.

But you know whatever mode of delivery too many kids are indeed born of assholes.

[rasputin1952]

100. LOL...I can think of a couple in DC...

that were born assholes...:D

[jbnow]

104. Not inside the intestines of course!

It would be implanted outside of it in the peritoneal cavity. It's a bad situation when it happens (in a woman) and if discovered is ended promptly. The longer it goes the greater the risk of catastrophic hemorrhage for the mother. It's also bad for the baby because the uterus is nicely built to expand, unlike the constricted environment outside of it.

I haven't read about it for many years now but the pregnancy is often lost very early...the placenta just doesn't attach well.

But you know whatever mode of delivery too many kids are indeed born of assholes.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

68. I passed a kindey stone once, does that count?

I've heard that the pain is about the same, and again, no thanks, once was enough. The only time I have ever hurt so much was when I was a kid and thought I was Billy Baddass and told the dentist to yank all my wisdom teeth at once. Big mistake.

[Purveyor]

4. NO! Kids are great as long as they are 'somebody elses'... eom

[AnneD]

6. Hubby has forgotten to

get a train ticket for me when we travel....And you think I'd trust him to carry a fetus? I love him but not in this life time.

[joshcryer]

9. Haha!

I *have* read of women who've been pregnant and had children without knowing they were pregnant. :P

[AnneD]

93. Actually....

I was over 4 months before I knew. I had stopped having periods for almost 6 months-and I was a regular gal. Doc said not to worry I was going through menopause early. They did a D&C anyway. Things got back to normal but then Sept, Oct, Nov I had progressively lighter periods. They stopped in Dec. I figures it was the same thing I had before, but after my finals I got a home pregnancy kit. I didn't even have to wait 45 seconds. Well, try getting an appointment around Christmas and New Years. I told her my history and when I was examined, she did an ultrasound because I felt further than 1-2 months. I was 5 mos. I was so shocked. I hadn't had any sickness and she had not even begun to move. The only symptom was exhaustion-which I credited to taking a full load in Nursing School and working full time.

When they asked me if I wanted to know the sex, I said the pregnancy was enough of a shock, I didn't want ANY more surprises. The good thing about it was I had a short pregnancy and I really didn't look pregnant until 7 mos.

Oh, and for all those PC morals police, I enjoyed 1 Margarita once a week and she turned out fine (upper percentile). In fact, I looked forward to my weekly because it was the one night we both got a good night's rest.

I hate to think what would have happened had I not gotten that kit and just figured it was the 'change'. It was a change all right.:spray:

[ret5hd]

7. Hella no!... But i might line me up one 'a those recreational abortions!

I hear they're hella fun!

[joshcryer]

10. Bah, just throw the artifical womb in the garbage.

Simple. :)

[Colobo]

11. I'm very parternal, and I love children, but

I don't see the point in doing something nature didn't intend for me to do. Let whoever winds up being the love of my life do it; her body will surely be suited for such task.

[joshcryer]

13. C'mon, whatever happened to chivalry!

Many animals in the animal kingdom take care of eggs or babies just as much as the female. Consider birds, where we have cases of males taking care of the egg just as much (if not more!) than the female. I don't think this would be any more unnatural than us primates typing on keyboards. :)

I'd happily take care of an artifical womb, and if it was portable we could share the duties and in general the 'pregnancy' could be far more rewarding.

[Madspirit]

16. 1000s of babies

There sure are a lot of babies out there needing homes...and older kids, without us figuring out a way for men to become pregnant. <g> Adopt a kid.

Josh...you attach too much emotion to children that aren't. I don't mean to be cold about it but the world is full of unwanted kids. Don't force women to have babies they don't want. This isn't about you and your baby-loving ways. It's about women's rights to choose.

I have no doubt a young man like you, sensitive and child loving, will be a dad someday. Just hold on. Be patient. It will happen. You don't have to control my body. You can find a woman who wants to have a child with you and you can both fall in love and voila!

You almost seem urgent about this.
Lee

[joshcryer]

19. Not at all. I just wanted to throw a theoretical out there. Don't read in to anything I say.

I plan to adopt regardless.

Have no idea where "controlling your body" comes in to this. This is about male reproductive rights. :) Women get hormonal birth control, men don't. Women get second chances (ie, choice), men don't. Women can have children, men can't. If technology can give men that choice, what harm is there in that?

[Madspirit]

26. Good for you!

Adoption is good. I just see you in every abortion thread. If technology can do it and you want it, go for it...<g>
Lee

[joshcryer]

29. There actually have been at least 3 a week.

Sorry for spoiling yours this time around but I really have been avoiding them. :D

Really, I have!

Also, I find it impossible how someone this day and age can chose *not* to adopt.

[dsc]

22. I can't speak about Josh

but for a gay couple this would be a literal Godsend. In many states there still is no practical way for a gay couple to jointly adopt. This would negate the need for that since the child could have the DNA of one parent and be carried by the other. That would make the child both parents.

[joshcryer]

24. I think it would be progress in every sense of the word.

Why *shouldn't* men have that choice?

[Madspirit]

27. I Know Gay Men

I know some gay men who had babies...completely sharing parenting...with lesbians. There's one way.

...but if this would be a godsend for gay men or anyone else...I will support it.
Lee

[dsc]

33. That could work but would be impractical for most people

I think most people would like to avoid sharing parenting with people that they don't live with. While I certainly know that those arrangements can work, I don't see setting oneself up for it immediately.

[joshcryer]

36. One point you did make is DNA, which I think holds a lot of weight.

I think it makes the argument far more persuasive, because, and I've been part of this type of litigation, when it comes to custody DNA is gold.

[durrrty libby]

17. Hahahaaahaha Your question is a riot

[joshcryer]

20. Isn't it? ;)

[WritingIsMyReligion]

18. Hell, I'm female, and I shudder at the idea of carrying a fetus to term.

I don't exactly blame men who don't want that, though more power to those who do!

[durrrty libby]

30. I carried 3, and it is an amazing experience.

They growed up good. hehe

My baby is an engineering student

If their dad had carried them, they would be 3 freaks ( or worse)...guaranteed.

:freak: :freak: :freak: :freak: :freak: :freak:

[Beelzebud]

28. Nope, call me old fashioned...

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

31. Oh Absolutely In A Heartbeat, If It Was Between That Or Abortion.

No problem with the concept whatsoever.

[joshcryer]

34. What do you mean?

What do you mean "If It Was Between That And Abortion"?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

39. If The Woman Pregnant With My Child Wanted An Abortion And That Was The Alternative.

If she wanted the child as well, then I'd consider the OP point moot really.

[joshcryer]

41. Well, intact removal is a bit harder than that.

I wasn't *exactly* arguing this, but if we were looking at *early* abortions I'm sure a zygote removal could be performed and replaced in the womb, and I would see nothing against that (I don't think a mother could have any right in claiming that the zygote is hers to destroy if the procedures are similar).

But we're talking slightly different things here, because removal at later stages becomes increasingly more risky, and I don't think you'd be justified in removing the fetus at that stage.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

55. Well If You're Not Talking About Transplanting, Then I Don't Know What Circumstance I Could Answer

yes to.

If you meant just from the get go, then I could see how that could be beneficial for same sex male partners. But I couldn't foresee a circumstance where from the get go it would be necessary for heterosexual couples. If my wife and I wanted another child, of course she'd be the one carrying it as nature intended. The only reason I'd see for doing it outside of nature is if it were for same sex male couples, where nature doesn't come into play, or for when the mother refuses to carry the child and opts for an abortion, but the father wants the child to live.

[joshcryer]

59. Well, transplantation is definitely a thing I hadn't considered.

And it brings up moral arguments that I think are outside of the scope of this discussion. :)

Interesting POV, though.

[donco6]

35. Only if it fit on the couch next to the TV. n/t

[joshcryer]

37. LOL, yes!

That'd the ideal, no? :D

[donco6]

40. And it only made noise during commercials.

:)

[Lars39]

38. Are you prepared to die, leaving your other children to be raised

by someone else? Are you prepared to be permanently impaired by the stroke you suffered during labor?
Are you prepared to have an epesiotomy? List could go on...

[joshcryer]

42. Artifical womb wouldn't be complete sex overhaul.

I think that's extreme and I wouldn't think anyone would do it except under some very peculiar circumstances (consider people who wish to change their gender; change their sex too).

I think artificial wombs are a bit more realistic than true sex changes.

[Lars39]

44. I see.

No risk at all for the user.

[joshcryer]

50. What's wrong with that? Wouldn't you prefer no risk reproduction?

I don't get the statement.

[Lars39]

65. Seems to be all fun and games, glossing over the very real risks

that pregnant women have.

[dsc]

45. oh please

I am not saying pregancy is without risk but this isn't the 1700's where people routinely died in childbirth either. The odds of a healthy woman dieing in childbirth is miniscule. Those of permanent health consequences while greater than those of death are still very low.

[in_cog_ni_to]

53. 515,000 women die every year in childbirth or pregnancy complication. That's not miniscule...

IMCPO.

[Lars39]

56. Thanks for finding the stat, in_cog_ni_to.

What does IMCPO stand for? :shrug:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

58. In My Consitutionally Protected Opinion.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

57. In The U.S. It's Only About 300-1000 Per Year. n/t

[joshcryer]

62. 11:100k

Hmm, seems prevlant in black women, older women, and women in poverty. Seems education is a factor, and prenatal care is a factor.

Looks like developed country females have a same or better chance of dying from accidental electrucution or alcohol poisoning. Walking down the street is far more dangerous. If the abyssmal health system of the USA could be fixed the rates would be significantly lower.

[in_cog_ni_to]

85. ONLY? ONLY? unbelieveable. 529,000 women die every year AROUND THE WORLD, from pregnancy

complications. Women are women wherever they live.

No Decline in Deaths in 20 Years

Complications Are Costly
Complications before delivery account for more than 2 million hospital days of care and over $1 billion each year in the United States. These figures would be even higher if they included complications that occur during and after delivery.


In the United States, 2–3 women die of pregnancy complications each day. From 1900 to 1982, deaths from pregnancy complications in the United States declined dramatically. In 1982, deaths began to level off, and there has been no marked decrease since that time. Yet studies indicate that as many as half of all deaths from pregnancy complications could be prevented if women had better access to health care, received better quality of care, and made changes in their health and lifestyle habits.

The leading causes of pregnancy-related deaths today are hemorrhage, blood clot, high blood pressure, infection, stroke, amniotic fluid in the bloodstream, and heart muscle disease. Antibiotics and infection control have helped to prevent many pregnancy-related deaths over the past century.

CDC also is working on additional science-based strategies that aim to prevent even more of these deaths.<snip>

That's 1095 women every year just in the U.S. alone! I don't see that as ONLY 1095 dead women. 1095 women is a LOT of women. 2-3 A DAY die in the U.S. 529,000 worldwide. That's outrageous.:(

http://www.cdc.gov/nccdphp/publications/aag/drh.htm

[dsc]

61. I will donate 100 to planned parenthood

if anything like that number die in the entire industialized world by pregancy. No way. I doubt even 1/100 of that die in the US each year.

[in_cog_ni_to]

79. Women are women wherever they live. It's now 529,000 deaths.. Here's the link to Planned Parenthood:

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/

The 515,000 deaths I quoted earlier was from a 2002 report. It looks like things have gotten even worse. The number is now up to 529,000.


Why do so many women still die in pregnancy or childbirth?

Q: Why do so many women still die in pregnancy or childbirth?

Question and answer archives
Submit a question

A: Every minute, at least one woman dies from complications related to pregnancy or childbirth – that means 529,000 women a year. In addition, for every woman who dies in childbirth, around 20 more suffer injury, infection or disease – approximately 10 million women each year.

Five direct complications account for more than 70% of maternal deaths: haemorrhage (25%), infection (15%), unsafe abortion (13%), eclampsia (very high blood pressure leading to seizures – 12%), and obstructed labour (8%). While these are the main causes of maternal death, unavailable, inaccessible, unaffordable, or poor quality care is fundamentally responsible. They are detrimental to social development and wellbeing, as some one million children are left motherless each year. These children are 10 times more likely to die within two years of their mothers' death.

Women need not die in childbirth. We must give a young woman the information and support she needs to control her reproductive health, help her through a pregnancy, and care for her and her newborn well into childhood. The vast majority of maternal deaths could be prevented if women had access to quality family planning services, skilled care during pregnancy, childbirth and the first month after delivery, or post-abortion care services and where permissible, safe abortion services. 15% of pregnancies and childbirths need emergency obstetric care because of risks that are difficult to predict. A working health system with skilled personnel is key to saving these women's lives.

WHO is committed to achieving the Millennium Development Goal of reducing maternal deaths by three-quarters. This year's World Health Day on 7 April, aims to raise awareness of maternal, newborn and child health, and highlight these issues as a priority for governments and the international community.

Launched on World Health Day, The world health report 2005 – Make every mother and child count, calls for greater access to live-saving care and interventions. It also advocates a "continuum of care" approach for women and children that begins before pregnancy and extends through childbirth into the baby's childhood.

http://www.who.int/features/qa/12/en/index.html

[joshcryer]

83. What can Americans do to help the statistic abroad?

In some developed countries you have a better chance of dying from lightning than from pregnancy.

[in_cog_ni_to]

86. Family Planning AID?

529,000 women is a LOT of dead women. 1095 die each year in the U.S. alone. 2-3 a DAY die from pregnancy complications. That may seem like a small number to a MAN, but to me, a female, it's an astonishing number for THIS developed country.:(

[joshcryer]

90. 20 million people die yearly from the flu. 60k in the USA alone.

Not to water down the deaths of these women as I think better medical care could be provided, from everything to state subsidized abortions to better education and so on. In any case, putting some statistics on a pedestal doesn't help matters, and as I showed it doesn't really 'prove' anything.

Medical care would help solve both issues, though.

[madokie]

52. what're you talking about, as soon as that thing started bleeding the first time

I'd be getting something done about that so I guess my answer would be no. Giving birth is one of the reasons I have a lot of respect for women they're a lot braver and tougher than I'll ever be. ;-)

[JVS]

60. Wouldn't artificial womb mean it isn't in anyone's body?

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,648024,00.html

I'm not in. Artificial reproduction is against my religious beliefs.

[joshcryer]

63. edit: n/m

Sorry, didn't read the whole thing properly.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

64. Fuck NO!

I don't even want my sperm to be responsible for bringing another "miracle" to this planet. The last thing this planet needs is another "me" running around. BTW, I'm 56 and still have no intention of bringing another "me" into existence.

[MrSlayer]

66. Um, No way.

The very idea is appalling.

[webDude]

69. Check this out! : "Milkmen: Fathers Who Breastfeed"

http://www.unassistedchildbirth.com/miscarticles/milkmen.html

[joshcryer]

74. I've read about this, it's freaking awesome.

I don't see what freaks everyone about about this sort of thing. :)

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

70. Does that include the backaches, vomiting, hemmorhoids, and pain? Hell, no.

Actually, and truly, as a male, I'm always amazed that so many women voluntarily choose to endure pregnancy.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

72. Genesis 3:16

"Unto the woman He said: 'I will greatly multiply thy pain and thy travail; in pain thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.'"

Blame it on Eve LOL

[JVS]

82. Verbum domini

Thanks be to God!

[omega minimo]

73. If artificial intelligence existed would you support womens rights rather than badger them to death?

"The only think lacking is the right technology or plumbing for this to be the case."

[joshcryer]

75. I thought we'd agreed not to reply to one another?

Or is this some sort of double standard you're exhibiting?

[omega minimo]

77. Do any other topics interest you?

Or is this some sort of vendetta you're exhibiting?

[joshcryer]

80. I could ask you the same question...

This topic has little to nothing to do with the topic you fervently disagree with me on (even though I'm 100% pro-choice).

[omega minimo]

88. yeah right

[bonito]

76. Only if I had to n/t

[Monk06]

78. If it's good enough for sea horses, it's good enough for me. Babies without wives. Bonus deal!!!!!

:hide:

[joshcryer]

81. Haha

But wives are so good... :/ I'd take one.

[JVS]

84. Your dream of fathering a hockey team could now happen

And they'd all be about the same age too!

[Blashyrkh]

87. No.

[bliss_eternal]

89. If the choice issue was the metaphoric dead horse...

...would you kick it, yet again---just for shits and giggles? :eyes:

[joshcryer]

91. I just need to wait for more comments like this.

It'll get kicked automagically. ;) (Just watch.)

[bliss_eternal]

92. I'm sure we can all expect...

...more threads like this from you. :boring:

[KansDem]

94. I'll have to fall back on the GOP chickenhawks' favorite excuse for not serving in the military

"I have 'other priorities'"

[AnnieBW]

96. I could carry a kid with difficulty

so yeah, I'd sign up for it in a heartbeat. As long as I could get a sperm donor - my husband also has problems in that area.

[chaska]

97. Anyone who has thoroughly investigated Peak Oil would have serious misgivings about...

bringing any child into the world.

[Warren DeMontague]

102. Yeah, well, if there are no kids, then it won't matter either way.

Fuck that- ensuring that my kids & grandkids have a planet to live on is one of the main reasons I bother to get up every morning and stroll down to give-a-shit lane.

[Warren DeMontague]

101. Who needs artificial wombs? What's the point of stacking the supreme court with Religious Right

Knuckle-draggers... if we can't force WOMEN to be the artificial wombs, against their will?

:eyes:

[misanthrope]

103. Not just "No" but "Hell no!"...

...To quote Paul Simon, "The planet groans everytime it registers another birth."

The very last thing that is needed now are more human beings. And when one considers the tragedies waiting to unfold in the coming decades, condemning another soul to those terrors is tantamount to sin in my opinion.