The President is doing the right thing on keeping BP in charge

[AllentownJake]

Why do I think that?

Simple. There is no way to fix this mess for 90 days till a relief well can be put in place. That is my belief, I hope I'm wrong, but why should the administration take over and replace an impossible task for the people that caused this to an impossible task for the US Government at taxpayers expense. If the administration takes it over, BP says "we could have fixed it" and than the debate comes in. Nope let the free market ass clowns own this.

There is a mechanism, that the administration better use and that is the fine for oil spills. There is no cap on the fine. Rather simple thing to do, fine the fuck out of them for each barrel spilled and use the money to compensate victims of the spill.

Did the Government do stupid things. Yes. The well should have never been drilled without adequate safety mechanisms. The employees at the MMS should have probably not been watching porn all day. At the end of the day though. BP, Haliburton, and TransOcean are the ones involved in the drilling, not the US Government.

So for political, economic, and ecological reasons let BP continue to twist in the wind with the impossible task they created.

[dipsydoodle]

1. Yes they should stay in charge

as they are best equipped to deal with the issue and despite some fuck ups I'm sure they're doing their best.

Anyone wishing them harm in their efforts or even complete failure should really get a life.

[boston bean]

2. Sorry, not at the expense of an entire ecosystem. I don't give a shit about any political reasoning

I wish people would stop framing the argument by insinuating that people who want more gov't control are only talking about how to seal the gusher.

BP should not be in control of the clean up of our ocean and shore line. They have no right and no special expertise to be barking out the orders on that front. As a matter of fact, they are making it harder to get things done, so they can cover up their crime.

[babylonsister]

3. You don't give a shit about the politics of this, yet you think the

government has more expertise than BP? What could possibly have led you to that conclusion? If they knew what to do, they'd be doing it. That applies to everyone involved. It is in No One's best interests to not fix this, they just don't know how.

[boston bean]

4. In organizing a clean up effort, I most definitely do think they have way more experience than BP

to keep the oil off our shores and commanding a vast, rapid response.

Why does BP have to be in control of that?

It does NOT make them any less liable for cost, that has been debunked over and over again.

Why is the government not doing everything it can to save the ocean and the coast line.

Instead, they bend over for BP and allow them to continue using Corexit.

I suggest you start asking yourself some really hard questions as to why that is?

Are you saying, NO ONE KNOWS HOW TO SUCK UP OIL FROM WATER?? Are you saying NO KNOWS HOW TO STOP IT FROM HITTING SHORE???

Obama could be a hero by coordinating a massive clean up response. The oil is gushing, we can't just focus on the site of the gusher. What if it gushes for 2 more months. Are we suppose to just sit back and say, well, BP has the expertise and the only way to minimize this catastrophe is stop the gusher and not worry about any clean up.

[BeFree]

5. If they did that...

..ask themselves hard questions, then they would see how BP is screwing them.

And how the government is allowing BP to screw them.

So, don't expect that to happen.

[madokie]

6. What exactly do you think the government could do?

Where exactly do you suppose they find the expertise to deal with this?
I'd like to see it stopped but I don't think it is right to expect President O to wave his hand and poof the gusher is gone

[boston bean]

7. The gusher may gush for another 2 months. I expect a massive response to keep the oil off the shore

and to try and the save the Gulf.

Do you really think BP is the go to for that?

[madokie]

12. Personally I don't think anyone is going to keep the oil off our shores or be able to reverse the

damage thats already done. But thats just me.

This should be a hard lesson learned and if it isn't then I'll start being more PO'd at everyone involved. Like the pukes who pushed for deregulation that caused this to be possible to begin with, the dems who were with them on that too but not our President Obama

[boston bean]

14. yes, let's not try and all learn a hard lesson.

I refuse to let this be a political opportunity. Just the thought of it is abhorrent to me.

How can you live with yourself??

Yeah the Republicans are fuck ups. So let's not do everything we can to save the gulf and its coast!

PUKE!

Even Obama isn't doing what you are doing. He is for more drilling. Drill Baby Drill. He isn't holding anyone (repukes, or corps) responsible in an effort to cover his ass politically, so his hands are clean. Well his off hands approach is covered in gunky crude.

[AllentownJake]

36. Sometimes you are fucked

by the irresponsible actions of others. I don't think anything can be done about this till a relief well is placed.

Booms, disperants, oil eating bacteria. Oil gusher of this size? Not going to make a dent or save a damn thing.

Plugging the hole, not likely.

This really isn't a political thing, they fucked up. There is no way to fix their fuck up. I don't want them to weasel out of it by blaming the government after it is painfully apparent there is nothing that can be done.

[laughingliberal]

78. There are those who disagree that nothing can be done until the well is capped.

This article talks about one who worked on the huge spill in Saudi in 1993. I find his reports about the run around he's gotten from BP disturbing. I think it's BP cheaping out.

According to Pozzi, that mishap, kept under wraps for close to two decades and first reported by Esquire, dumped nearly 800 million gallons of oil into the Persian Gulf, which would make it more than 70 times the size of the Exxon Valdez spill.

But remarkably, by employing a fleet of empty supertankers to suck crude off the water's surface, Pozzi's team was not only able to clean up the spill, but also salvage 85 percent of the oil, he says.

"We took out of the water so it would save the environment off the Arabian Gulf, and then we put it into tanks until we could figure out how to clean it," he told AOL News.

While BP, the oil giant at the center of the recent accident, works to stanch the leak from the sunken Deepwater Horizon rig, Pozzi insists the company should be following his lead.


http://www.aolnews.com/nation/article/could-cleanup-fix-for-gulf-oil-spill-lie-in-secret-saudi-disaster/19476863

[AllentownJake]

80. What was the depth of the spill

I think we forget part of the problem is that this is in deep water and appears on surface in unpredictable places.

[laughingliberal]

88. We don't know details due to confidentilality agreements with Aramco.

But the priciples of cleaning oil from the surface would not change, I would not think. I also see the use of dispersants may be a hindrance to the cleanup efforts. We have seen the reports which say the dispersants may factor into keeping the oil from rising to the surface where it could be pumped off and cleaned.

I find it interesting one of the BP execs Pozzi contacted threatened to sue him. For what? Offering help? Or was BP part of the spill in Saudi? Inquiring minds want to know...

[AllentownJake]

89. Who knows

All I know is BP wants this to end as much as you and I do.

[laughingliberal]

92. I'm certain they want to cap the well as much as anyone else.

I am not so convinced about their commitment to the cleanup. I think they have an agenda of hiding as much of the effects as possible and saving as much money as they can. If this is not the case, they need to take a look at their communication style because it is certainly the impression they are leaving.

[AllentownJake]

93. Well of course

but there really is no effective clean-up effort until the damn thing stops gushing oil.

[laughingliberal]

99. That may be true but I am not convinced it is.

I believe the damage can be mitigated if not eliminated.Keeping as much oil away from the shoreline as possible should be a priority and although the size of the spill makes it a daunting task, more effort in that direction might go a ways in showing some good faith on BP's part. I believe the damage can be mitigated if not eliminated.

[SusanaMontana41]

123. I'm with you, bb. The politicization of this tragedy sickens me,

and it matters not who is doing the politicizing. If a national ecological catastrophe can't bring us together as Americans, what will?

[Chan790]

150. I live with me just fine.

Mostly because I don't like in fairytale land where I propose doing magical things that simply aren't possible.

I'm a realist, so shoot me. We're not going to at this point save the gulf, the wildlife, the shoreline, the coast or prevent 100,000 people across the southeast US from developing tumors and/or cancer resultant of this over the next 20 years...it's not possible, it's too late. That ship has sailed. The only question left open and on the table is "Do you want to own this mess or do you want BP to own this mess?"

I want BP to own this mess. I want people pissed off and knowing who fucked up, who FUBARed the repair, who half-assed the clean-up and prevention. I want this to make people question the future viability of oil as an energy source and mock anybody who would use the words "drill, baby, drill" unironically.

Sorry, it is a political opportunity...willy nilly, whether we want it to be or not, it is a political opportunity. Any opponent of offshore drilling or sensible energy policy would have to be a motherfucking idiot to not seize upon it as such, as a means to shove demand for a sensible energy policy down the throats of the pro-carbon-fuel morons.

[dgibby]

24. Thank you!

That is exactly what I've been saying for at least 2 weeks (ps,prepare to be trashed and/or ignored for this pov).

The Director of Homeland Security for Jefferson Parish was on CNN this am, and that is exactly what he said, too. He told CNN that 2 weeks ago, they told BP they found a large amt of oil 20 miles off shore, and requested boats and booms. They got no response.

When the oil was 13 miles out, they went back to BP. Once again, no response. Last Saturday,out of sheer desperation and in an effort to prevent the oil from reaching the coast, he made the decision to commander the boats BP had sitting idle.

Up until that happened, BP had refused to listen or cooperate with them. Now they have representatives at the Parish Emergency Management Headquarters, working WITH them.

Amazing what a little LEADERSHIP will do, isn't it?

[laughingliberal]

73. That's how I see it.

Leaving BP to attempt to cap the well is fine with me. The relief well may very well be the only thing that works for stopping the gusher. But there are quite a few around who have massive experience in clean up and keeping a lot of the oil from reaching the shore. The stories of various experts in this area being rebuffed and given the run around by BP when they contacted them and offered their services is disturbing. I still contend this is more about BP trying to cheap out to protect profits.

[seabeyond]

47. from what i am hearing there are quite a few experts (scientists) in the clean up process

they do know what is going on and they are a part of the clean up. that is what i have been hearing last handful of days from different sources.

[AllentownJake]

54. They are as dumbfounded as anyone else

Remember, this was not supposed to happen...therefore, no one did any planning if it did.

See financial crisis.

[seabeyond]

56. i was listening to a oceanologist this morning saying they agree, doing nothing with marshes and

wet land is the best answer. they would do more damage trying to clean it up than leaving it alone.

how many people yelling about somethng being done, realizes this. i didnt know. i was surprised. and totally counter to what we would expect. people just have to listen and be informed instead of simply being angry.

[ljm2002]

83. But I'm sure even they would agree...

...that it is best to keep the oil out of the marshes in the first place.

The more oil that can be sucked up out of the water, the less reaches the shore and the quicker the recovery is, regardless of the methods used, or not used.

So there is plenty of things to be done in terms of cleanup while the relief well is being drilled.

[laughingliberal]

95. That's where I think the efforts are less than vigorous. nt

[seabeyond]

98. i have heard the complaint on du. i have not heard it from the many experts that i have listened

to. what i think.... really isnt relevant to fact. i have to know that the effort is less than vigorous and that means these same people i am listening to that would be in the know, havent said, .... yet, so far, from what i heard

[seabeyond]

97. i dont have the information on what is being done in that area, so i cannot make any kind of

statements, opinions or allegations. the point is, until i hear from different sources, different expert opinions and knowledge, i really dont have a place to make demands. what if they are doing what they need to do out at sea, cleaning up? i dont know. i hear duers yell about it, but like with this, it doesn't mean they are any more informed than i am. i have to have fact, before i am going to criticize. i am working on getting the info now.... after listening to duers making demands, not informed. i have listened to a couple days of scientists talking about the clean up and the disperser that they are using is not what the scientists want. but in all that talk, i have not heard criticism or demand that the actual clean up is not being done or an issue with it.

another interesting thing the oceanologist said about this particular area, that is an upside, is the tide line is minimal. so it is only a small distance the ocean rises and recedes, leaving much of the marsh alone. if it was more like east coast where distance was greater, would do much more harm. i thought that was interesting

the down side is hurricane season is coming.

[nadinbrzezinski]

110. Yet LEGALLY they have to

WRITE, CALL, your Reps and make sure they pass EMERGENCY legislation to change the 1990 law. Until that happens... guess who's got that ball?

Pesky law I know.

[old mark]

8. There is plenty of time to fix blame later - Now, the leak must be stopped.

BP has the ONLY tools capable of doing this. To bring in outside "experts" will take longer than letting BP stumble along trying to stop it. Remember this thing is almost A MILE below the surface of the ocean - the US had NOTHING that will work in that depth of water, not the navy, not researchers, nobody.

Obama can stand on the Louisiana shore and command the leak to stop, but it won't do any good.

Make BP stop the lead and make them pay for every dime of damage for however many decades it takes.



mark

[boston bean]

11. What about the clean up response.

If it keeps leaking, are we only to focus on keeping the boot on the neck of BP to get it under control.

Meanwhile millions of gallons of oil gush and roll toward the shore, and toxic dispersants kill the gulf.

FFS there is a way to minimize the effect of the spill. The focus should not be on only capping the well.

There are millions of gallons of crude and dispersant in the gulf already. It is already rolling ashore.

God people cannot be this stupid, can they?

[dgibby]

35. Why yes, yes they can.

The idea that Obama/govt. can't do anything to stop the leak (I agree), and therefore, can't do anything about cleanup and containment (I strongly disagree), is the dumbest argument ever!

I swear to gawd, sometimes I think this talking point has been taken right out of Frank Luntz's handbook. Meh!

Anyone who thinks that BP's focus is on protecting the Gulf's ecosystems is either terribly naive or terminally stupid.

BP's focus is 1. CYA, and 2. Stopping the leak. Everything else is a distant third.

[AllentownJake]

57. Never said BPs focus was that

What I'm saying is a Nuclear bomb has gone off and the radiation is heading towards an area.

Nothing can be done once the bomb goes off.

I don't think there is anything that the government can do to reduce the damage that is about to be done.

When I say impossible task...I mean impossible task.

[old mark]

63. BP's idea of the cleanup involves their many many lawyers stalling and denying

claims for damages. If it ever stops in the first place.
The "cleanup" for the Exxon Valdez spill is still going on - since 1989.


mark

[ljm2002]

85. The OP clearly stated...

...that BP has to cap the well, but there is still much to be done in terms of cleanup.

Yet this and several replies continue to focus on capping the well.

I think most of us understand that capping the well is difficult and there are limited sources of expertise in this area, not to mention the specialized equipment that can work at depth.

That does not address the other half of the equation, which is the cleanup efforts. That does *not* require only BP, and they should *not* be in charge of that effort.

IMO

[AllentownJake]

113. I'm talking about now

Not later. I think people think I want to do nothing. I think that until the hole stops leaking oil, not much can be done and there is little that can be done to prevent the oil that is out there from doing damage.

This is going to be one hell of a mess to clean up.

[ljm2002]

115. Well that's where we disagree...

...I think it would be folly of the first order to delay cleanup efforts until the well is capped.

[MyNameGoesHere]

9. So the agents of change want to keep doing what we have always done

with oil leaks? Isn't insanity doing the same thing over and over again and getting the same results but hoping it will work better this time? We been drilling offshore since 1930 and this is the best agents of change can come up with? Stay the course?

[jaxx]

13. What's your solution? A workable one.

Not a demand that it all be fixed yesterday.

[MyNameGoesHere]

19. Well other than throwing my hands in the air in surrender

an saying nothing can be done... That is the consensus right? I mean the world is full of morons and not a single person or group could possibly figure out a solution right? So maybe we just keep doing what we keep doing and we can add to this map.

http://www.cedre.fr/en/spill/spill-cartography.php


If we try really hard we could probably cover it completely.

So what would I do?

Immediately issue statement, or get approval from congress saying the US government is taking charge of all efforts in the Gulf leak.
Churchill ordered and begged for any and all vessels to get 200000 men out of Dunkirk. Surely Obama could beg, borrow, or commandeer some ships capable of skimming/recovery?
IMMEDIATELY convene a committee of experts to come up with alternative solutions. I mean every asset that has a remote possibility of finding a solution.
Convene grand jury to indict the heads of BP, Transocean, and MMS for crimes against humanity. They did it to Hussein for setting oil fields on fire. To me these guys are just as guilty/
Order immediate halt to all offshore drilling pending REAL inspections of operations and disaster planning. If companies do not have at lease 2 plans and a backup for catastrophic failures, they are shut down.
Ban foreign entities that do not comply with inspections from imports.
Create a Manhattan project to reduce fossil fuel consumption by 50% in 5 years. At the end of 5 years start penalizing companies that have not reduced or changed to alternative energy with heavy taxes/fines.

I would not go to a fund raising event though, that is just stupid.

I know a lot of this may or may not help. But goddamn it is about trying. Not surrendering because we always do it this way.

[jaxx]

21. Ok, some of that makes sense.

I'm all for regulating the shit out of them.

[laughingliberal]

117. Good post! eom

[ShamelessHussy]

10. surrendering your authority to a corporation is what got us into this mess

who is looking out for we the peoples interest if not our gov, BP?

[eilen]

15. Well now, that is pretty disingenuous

What the fuck did the government know about outer space? How about NASA? They didn't leave that to some blood-sucking, oil spilling mercenary corporation.

Way to cop out on the responsibility of protecting the country and our ecosystem.

I hope that isn't what he plans to run on. "As leader of the largest, richest, most innovative country in the Western World because I can't figure out how to find the technology and talent the planet can offer to fix this problem?"

Don't we have an Army, Navy, Airforce and Corps of Engineers, NASA as well as fund research at several universtities as well as MIT, RIT, etc? Do we not have favorable relationships with Nations who have expertise with deep water, cleaning up oil etc? Are you really telling me that there is nothing the leader of the free world can do about this? Really? Is he on the par of say Castro when it comes to availability of resources and expertise?

Mien Gott we are doomed.

[Selatius]

16. You're asking for a Pyrrhic Victory. Politically, we win, but at devastating cost to the environment

These are the kinds of battles we should avoid fighting. What good is standing up for the environment if we fight in such a way that we destroy exactly what we're trying to protect in the name of victory?

[AllentownJake]

27. I don't think you understand

NOTHING CAN BE DONE.

[dgibby]

41. I disagree.

Nothing can be done by the Govt about the gusher, short of bombing the hell out of it.

Plenty can be done about cleanup and containment by the Govt if someone who is in charge would only DO it. You know, lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way!

[AllentownJake]

48. They are going to stop the oil?

Really, how are they going to stop it? Oil booms? Chemicals?

I think you are over estimating human ability to stop a mess they created.

This is like trying to stop radiation after it left the nuclear reactor.

[dgibby]

55. No, they won't be able to stop ALL of the oil reaching the coastline,

but it IS possible to mitigate some of the damage, or are you saying that it's an "all or nothing" situation, that since we can't prevent all of the oil coming ashore, we should just nothing?

Wouldn't that be like saying, well, since my kitchen is on fire, the fire dept should just let the whole damn house burn to the ground?

Your response to a drowning person would be what? Sorry Bud, even though I have this life ring in my hands, I can't do anything for you because you're already in the water?

Or to the person who's just been hit by a car, just throw up your hands and walk away because the accident's already occurred?

[AllentownJake]

59. How are they going to mitigate some of the damage?

Seriously, how do you determine which area to protect.

You are dealing with an oil spill miles off shore and it is nearly impossible to determine where it is headed. Sure you can save a few marshes, but you aren't going to be able save even 99% of them.

What resources do we have in preperation for this.

You are talking some bomb shelters. Fine we build one or two bomb shelters and save a few people.

If you think they can predict the weather let alone ocean currents in time to move things around...you are crazier than I am.

[laughingliberal]

101. No one said it would be easy or cheap

What if they spent as much obtaining a fleet of tankers to the Gulf as they spent lobbying Congress to avoid regulations? I'd bet on a lot of oil being captured before it reached shore.

[DevonRex]

105. The point is, doing something difficult and expensive won't work,either.

So do we do something difficult and expensive just to show we're doing something? That's just a waste designed only to placate the masses.

Jake is right.

[laughingliberal]

114. I'm not sure I agree and there are experts in the field who don't, either.

I think we don't know how much good can be done without making the effort. It's not like BP can say this has all been tried before and failed. It sounds to me like the effort in Saudi after the Aramco spill was pretty effective. It also sounds like, from what I've read, BP doesn't want that getting around.

[DevonRex]

116. Well, LL, I hope you're right and that something can be done.

I just can't see how BP losing billions in oil revenue and billions in cleanup costs is a plus for them. To me, logic would dictate that if BP could stop the flow and start getting their oil instead of having it leak all over the place, then they would. And if there were top scientists who could help them do that, they'd pay them top dollars to do it.

[laughingliberal]

120. Stopping the leak would benefit their profits as well as all of us.

I am certain they are doing all humanly possible to stop it. The cleanup is a different matter IMO. If they can keep covering the extent of the damage by dumping Corexit rather than bringing in a fleet of tankers to start pumping the oil out of the water and cleaning it, that saves them a lot of money. We are talking about a company who has put the forseeable future of the gulf at risk and killed eleven people for want of a half million dollar piece of equipment. Why would we think they would not be scrimping on the cleanup?

[DevonRex]

124. I'd like to know more about what's going on with the "cleanup."

I confess I'm not as conversant on that part of it as I'd like to be. Day 10 of a migraine. Well, truthfully I had a couple of days of relief but I had a brain MRI yesterday that started it up again, with all the clanking and knocking and buzzing going on.

I did manage to read your concise reply, though, and it was really helpful. Thank you.

[laughingliberal]

131. Oh, you poor thing! Hope it gets better. MRI? I hope nothing serious?

I think we'd all like to know more about the cleanup. The efforts to block the media are disturbing and contribute to the impression of a coverup.

[DevonRex]

136. Thanks. Ironically, the MRI is to find out about all these migraines.

So it gave me a migraine. :shrug:

I'd lean to the side of they're using bad stuff because the worst is already happening or going to happen anyway. And it's an even more frightening notion.

Just looked at some pictures of all the dead sea life on the bottom and it doesn't give me much hope.

Thank you for the well wishes. I didn't realize how much I needed them until now. :hug:

[laughingliberal]

139. Sigh, that's medicine for you (old nurse, here)

Had meningitis at 20, horrible headache. Went into the hospital and they did a spinal tap which made the headache much worse. I truly hope they find an answer and it's a good one.

:hug:

[BeFree]

17. BP is king?

Long live BP?

Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzttt!!!

I bet you the teabaggers would support any crusade to exterminate any logical, socialistic response.

[patrice]

25. Yes and we are a country of fools. All of this hoo-haa about how "Free" we are is BULLSHIT. Most

people don't even know that they are slaves to Royalty and that's not a figure of speech, not a metaphor, not a symbol. It's a plain FACT.

[inna]

151. now, that's pretty interesting, haven't thought of it in those terms until now...

+

[tiny elvis]

18. bp in charge means bp in charge of coast guard and louisiana police

this is not speculation
you are watching disaster capitalism in action
corps and banks cause disaster and their paid enablers hand them the power to make the disaster go away
in the giant bank robbery the power handed them was all the money in the world
in the gulf disaster that power includes police
whether a disaster is intended or a surprise, the procedure is the same
now wherever the oil goes, police instantly become enforcers of arbitrary corp edicts
in light of bp taking control of coast guard and police, your position amounts to
/>

[Cetacea]

20. I don't believe that BP will be in charge after thursday.

They had enough time to protect their trade secrets. Enough. The gulf and coastal areas should be declared a National Disaster and we should have a massive amount of forces there as well as NASA.

[AllentownJake]

129. NASA has been working on oil spills?

I love NASA and I can see the similarities of space exploration, but I don't think NASA is holding back some miraculous secret.

[laughingliberal]

133. Perhaps they 'know people...'

;)

[AllentownJake]

134. Well shit get them down here nt.

[scheming daemons]

22. The minute the feds take over, BP has a powerful argument in court that they aren't liable

"Sorry, judge. We would've had it fixed much earlier if the feds hadn't taken over. How can you hold us liable when it was taken out of our hands?"

[AllentownJake]

34. Yep

and they will have a parade of "experts" that will be paid to say how everything was fine till Obama got involved.

[boston bean]

44. that is noit true you need to read the air pollution act

BP is on the hook whether the fed takes over the clean up or not.

Plus isn't it coommon sense to minimize the damage. Less cost to clean it up.

Your argument is a political calculation and it's abhorrent.

[AllentownJake]

45. No my belief is there is nothing can be done

It isn't a political calculation.

Just because a problem is created doesn't mean there is a workable solution.

I can read all the theory in the world. Neither BP or the government can stop this thing.

Neither BP nor the government have the resources to prevent what is coming a shore or into the oceans.

What is so hard for you to understand that is my belief.

If I believe that, than letting BP take the fall for a problem they created makes perfect sense.

If I thought the government could do a damn thing, I'm on your side. I don't.

[dgibby]

49. Not if Obama declares the area a Federal Disaster Zone.

This argument has been refuted ad infinitum, yet you cling to it like a drowing man to a life raft.

So, let's be clear here. Your argument is that it's better to ruin the Gulf's ecosystems and economy because the Govt might lose some future court case? This, despite the overwhelming evidence of the criminal malfeasence of BP in this disaster, and their criminal past,as well.

Is that what you're really saying? Really?

[AllentownJake]

51. My argument is we are fucked

Honestly, what is so hard to understand I believe that a catastophre of this size cannot be managed by anyone.

Sure set up protection zones around what exactly?

What do you do with the first tropical depression?

How do you propose clean-up exactly.

This is going to take years to clean up if ever, and there is nothing anyone can do about that.

Sorry.

[dgibby]

74. Your mind is made up.

You have decided that we are doomed, that nothing can be done, and that it would be futile to try.

With all due respect, trying to have a discussion with you at this point in your thinking is equivalent to beating one's head against a brick wall, and to tell you the truth, a colossal waste of time and energy.

I'm done. You win. We're all gonna die. BOHICA!

[AllentownJake]

87. I asked you how you prevent this

Your answer is there has to be a way.

I say how?

You say something.

I'm not the smartest guy in the room all the time. If you can tell me how you mitigate a deep sea oil volcano that cannot be stopped from having a disastrous effect on the area when the government in the past has outsourced smaller environmental catastrophes to Haliburton and other entities. I'm willing to listen.

The US Military is equipped to kill things, not stop oil. The industry believed this would never happen, and therefore never built the equipment to deal effectively with it.

The science surrounding dealing with toxic sludge in the ocean, not very developed (if you can develop a science for toxic sludge clean-up).

I'm sure there is something that can be done to make it look pretty and make us feel good we tried (such a generational thing in my opinion, this notion of trying), but you sound like my relatives telling my dad to get chemo when the doctor said it wouldn't help him.

I'm looking at the situation from the prospective of there are something you can't fix.

[dgibby]

103. Here:

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/dgibby

I've posted this in various iterations for at least 2 weeks. I'm not going to do it again.

As I said, you've made up your mind. Nothing anyone has offered has satisfied you. When you're open to solutions, I'll be glad to discuss this with you. Now is obviously not the right time.

[laughingliberal]

102. Makes about as much sense as saying a person I hit in my car is critical means I off the hook. nt

[patrice]

23. Yes, BUT how about the use of coagulants instead of disperssants? Regulators could mandate

that, couldn't they?

[AllentownJake]

30. I think that is minor

This is like pancreatic cancer for the gulf region. There is going to be a giant mess to clean up. The issue is that the stopping portion...nothing can be done.

Everything you are seeing is an operation.

[freddie mertz]

26. Cannot agree, Jake.

Government's job is to defend and protect the country.

BP's is to get the oil and make a profit.

Doesn't make sense for them to be in charge. They should, however, be presented with the bill.

[AllentownJake]

28. Nothing can be done

Seriously, the best idea they have is golf balls. When you stop hearing statistical probablities of success in an operation, the operation is pretty much destined to fail.

We are arguing over who gets to treat a dying cancer patient.

[freddie mertz]

71. This is seriously defeatist. Yes, they are fools and we should have stopped this long ago.

The effort must continue of the gulf and perhaps the entire ocean is doomed.

We know that relief wells can work.

Too bad we didn't pass a law on that one.

[AllentownJake]

91. Once the Genie is out of the bottle

I don't think anyone has the resources or knowledge to deal with this. Hopefully, I'm wrong.

[freddie mertz]

107. I have to ask: Do you have a family, children?

I'm trying to understand your rather blasé acceptance of the inevitability of failure here.

You realize what this could lead to, right?

[AllentownJake]

108. Acceptance of what you see as a reality

has nothing to do with what you want.

I don't know whether this idea what we want and what we see diverge is American or simply a human issue.

I see this for what I believe it is.

[freddie mertz]

121. You are fucking depressing me with this.

It's bad enough the way it is...

Sheesh.

[AllentownJake]

125. I get that a lot when someone asks me

What do you think about something I think will not end well.

I'm pretty right most of the time.

[harun]

106. That sums things up nicely. Only way I would go against that

reasoning is if BP gave one hell of a good argument why they know how to stop the flow better that the U.S. Government could. And to that I haven't heard a word either way.

[oldlib]

29. I agree.

The U.S. government does not have expertise in all areas, especially stopping an oil pipe line breakage at a mile from the surface. BP has the capability to operate at that depth and should, with our government control, be in charge of the stoppage and cleanup.

[AllentownJake]

32. That isn't my opinion

My opinion is we are fucked and there is nothing the government nor BP can do about it.

[Ganja Ninja]

31. I can't for the life of me figure out what people think Obama ...

is going to do when he takes charge. Even if he took charge the government has no means of doing this any faster than BP.
Right now BP is getting help from the other oil companies in the gulf. Will that continue if Obama takes charge?
Who's responsible for the oil and the damages after he takes charge?

[AllentownJake]

33. Exactly

Anyone who thinks BP wants this PR disaster is insane. They are fucked, they know they are fucked.

The government taking charge just means blame gets put on the government. There is nothing anyone can do about this.

I swear this is like talking to relatives when my Dad was dying who insisted there must be something that could be done differently to save him.

[Ganja Ninja]

37. American's are so use to getting what they want.

We think all we have to do is throw a fit and things will happen.

[AllentownJake]

38. Trust me

I have seen it all the time. This country is the land of denial. A few relatives went crazy when the doctor told my dad his best bet was hospice after they found pancreatic cancer that had spread to his lungs, liver, and kindeys.

Surely there must be a way...nope.

Samething here. There is a hole in the ocean floor gushing oil. There is no way to minimize the damage or to stop it in a short period of time.

Best bet, make the fuckers pay for cleaning it up, punish law breaking, and establish regulations that ensure that another idiot can't do it again.

[Art_from_Ark]

153. WTF?

I mean really, :wtf:

This is not something like a new car or a new computer that we wanted for Christmas and didn't get, for crying out loud! This is a disaster that has the potential to cause horrible ecological damage over a very extensive area, and the company responsible for this mess, which has a reputation for cutting corners and firing staff who "want to save the world", is being entrusted with stopping the disaster because they "have the expertise and Uncle Sam doesn't" even though they've already failed 5 times or more to stop this spewing oil geyser. If they are the only ones in the world with the "expertise" to stop this, then we are screwed.

[HughMoran]

39. After watching the incredible machinations of the robots last night in preparing for the 'top kill'

I have to agree, there is nobody else who knows this BOP like they do and could even attempt the top kill. And if the top kill fails, which they probably will, I want BP to fail, NOT the US government and Obama. It's their dime and their expertise, let them do what they can until the relief well is ready.

[AllentownJake]

40. Wow agreement

This is an odd day.

[dgibby]

62. Yes, it is,

because I almost always agree with everything you post, but we're polar opposites on this one.

Until the relief wells fail or the seabed cracks open and starts leaking around the well, I am not going to give up trying to mitigate the damage.

I respect your opinion and your right to express it. I just strongly disagree with your assessment of the situation.

I'm not sure it can be fixed, but we haven't tried everything possible yet. When nothing works, then, and only then, will I even begin to think about quitting.

[PufPuf23]

79. Love you Jake but maybe this agreement should be a clue nt

[AllentownJake]

82. Here is the thing

I don't think they can stop the gusher underwater without a Nuclear weapon or a Relief Well. I know it may take a few attempts for them to get the relief well working.

I don't think we have the resources to do damage control. I know our culture, if someone in authority says that can't happen we don't prepare for it. I don't think the government nor any entity in existence has the resources to prevent the oil from going where the oil is going. That coupled with the fact in the past 20 years anytime there has been a mess with oil, Haliburton does the clean-up effort. The government even outsources that to them during Military campaigns...regardless of party in power.

For publicity sake I believe they might be able to save a few miles of beaches and take pictures of the great job they are doing. Other than that, I think the area is fucked, therefore I don't care who is in charge of managing phase one of the response. It is fucked regardless.

[PufPuf23]

90. We agree as to the scale of disaster and there is no good end regardless

Where we differ in opinion, is in the politics of the situation.

POTUS Obama will be blamed as the event is on his watch. Politics compounded damage to the Democratic party by his worst case timing of supporting offshore drilling and a piss-poor appointment in Salazar.

If the disaster was federalized, the same entities (BP et al) would be doing the work but with more oversight and added expertise and resources and less ability for the perps to cover their asses.

I wrote about how the NEPA process failed elsewhere in this thread. IMO some of the perps are Feds and they can be identified by following the trail of the NEPA process. I would wager there will be whistle blowing scientists in abundance unless stiffled by the Feds.

[nadinbrzezinski]

111. IT IS federealized

the IC, aka incident commander, is Thad Allen, Coast Guard Commandant.

This for some reason is NOT sinking in

[William Z. Foster]

154. no it isn't

No matter how many times you repeat this, it is still false.

It is not sinking in, which is what you are hoping for, because things have gone too far and people are starting to question the whole stinking racket of "partnerships" between government and corporations. People are starting to wake up. People are rejecting this idea that we must trust the very perps who cause the disaster, and that we must continue to apply the same anti-government pro-corporate thinking that created the dangerous situation in the first place.

You argue strenuously against the very concept of federalizing the disaster response, and then when that doesn't work turn around and claim that it is federalized.

Many here, sadly, have either forgotten or never knew what a true federalized response would look like. Were that not true, these talking points you continue to post over and over again would get no serious consideration from anyone.

What you are saying is true in a bizarre and chilling way - the response is in a sense both federalized and privatized, because the line between where corporations end and government begins has been so blurred. That is not something any of us should be accepting, let alone promoting. Yet you are - relentlessly and aggressively.

So keep pounding on your theme here, but don't be surprised if it doesn't sink in as effectively as it did when you were pounding it on behalf of Wall Street and promoting the bail outs.

[corpseratemedia]

42. PROTECTING the country's shores and ecosystems is the provenance of the govt.

if there is a direct immediate threat to the people and chain of life and property, the govt. must step in and do whatever it can to guard and protect them.


i keep reading this argument that only bp has the knowledge to cap the leak. fine...ok only private industry does...but who should have the ultimate authority over protecting our land? Over what bp does and doesn't do near our shores? Especially when an untrustworthy oil co, with a tattered history and anti-environmental arrogant leadership defies epa requests?



Let's not forget...this is cheney's masterpiece. But NO dem should have ever got on board the offshore drillbabydrill bandwagon, esp. with the knowledge of totally lax and inbred drug and porn infested oversight. If * had responded the same way, some of the same cheerleaders here would be howling for impeachment, esp. since more offshore oil drilling permits and environmental waivers were OKed after O's moratorium.

This is a national emergency. Protecting as much as our gulf from oil coming on shore is part of what our govt. must be doing right now...the chain of life doesn't care who will keep them alive sooner or at all.

[Ganja Ninja]

46. How are we going to protect the coastline all the way from Texas to North Carolina?

Building berms to protect the marshes would be a daunting task and would probably kill them as sure as the oil. They would have to remain in place for years. The birds living in them will still have to use the oil filled gulf to feed. The late summer storms will likely breach any protective devices they use. I'm afraid we're demanding the impossible.

[AllentownJake]

50. Yep

That is what is going on.

First you have to predict wind currents, than you have to predict ocean currents, than you have to predict human factors.

Nevermind if a minor tropical depression comes into the gulf and fucks all your efforts up.

The weatherman fucks up whether it is going to rain today on a routine basis in the morning in my area...how the hell are they going to predict where oil is coming in an area of this size.

[ljm2002]

104. Let's just take one suggestion...

...namely, tankers to suck up the oil and water and separate out the oil and put the water back. Yes the water they put back will not be pristine, it will still have some oil. Reports are this can alleviate 85% of the oil at a given site where this is tried.

Now I know there are underwater plumes, etc. But every bit of oil that is recovered, is oil that does not remain in the ecosystem.

So is everyone here saying, nah, we shouldn't do it. Only BP has the expertise to do that (which of course is simply not true). If the government does it BP won't have to pay (which of course is simply not true). If the government gets involved in cleanup then BP won't be to blame anymore (which of course is simply not true).

Whatever happened to that American "can-do" attitude?

Yes, the situation is totally FUBAR. But not mobilizing every resource to mitigate the situation is foolish if not downright criminal.

[KharmaTrain]

43. Changing Oily Horses In The Middle Of A Stream...

For all the whiz bang ideas and foot stomping, you are unfortuately spot on...this gusher will continue to flow until a relief well is set to relieve the pressure. Everything else BP, or anyone else, for that matter can do is just a shot in the dark...and even then there's no assurance that a "junk shot" or "top fill" will completely shut down the flow. If there's a saving grace here is that the gusher is in the deep ocean...had it been on the shelf the destruction would have been more widespread. Not good, but you find the little good bits where you can.

This is BP's baby...they cause it, they're on the hook to fix it and then to clean up. I expect the government to become more active in the clean-up as warranted, but the liability is fully BPs and any attempt to "nationalize" them or somehow push them aside gives them an out in having to assume that responsibility. It was telling the other day when the BP CEO walked the oil stained beach...the look of "holy shit" was all over his face. While I would hope it would be about the economic and social impact his company's negligence is having on the local population, but I believe its more about how screwed his company is in trying to weasel out of any liability here.

Again...this situation is three-fold...stopping the gusher (a real clean-up can't begin until the flow is cut back), organize the clean-up, then we'll deal with the blame...criminal and commercial. Just as when you have a flood in your house, you're not worried about whose doing to pay to clean up while you're still waist deep.

There's compelling evidence already of BP's negligence and criminality...time will add more to the bill and the list of charges.

Cheers...

[blindpig]

52. BP and the government do not, at least should not share the

same priorities.

BP, as a capitalist entity, is only concerned with it's bottom line, in this case avoiding liability. Thus the massive use of toxic dispersants to minimize the public perception of this disaster. The government has the commonweal as it's responsibility, theoretically anyway. Yet it seems that the government is abrogating it's responsibility by deferring to BP's agenda, as great an indictment of how capitalism really works as ya never want to see.

BP should be expropriated without compensation, the workforce and facilities employed under government scientists instead of BP bean counters.

[AllentownJake]

53. We are 40 days into this

Government Scientist come in much later. Right now, there is a disaster. The government is about as clueless on how to stop it as BP is.

This disaster is something we will probably be cleaning up for the next 20 years.

[seabeyond]

58. not only the govt but the private section of scientists too. they are involved in finding answers

and solutions also

[blindpig]

61. Yes, but not under oil industry auspices. n/t

[seabeyond]

64. whih is exactly the point. it is people from all areas discussing and looking for answers

and not all of them are under the oil tarp. what can and cannot be done is being talked about. people are being listened to. and people whose only concern is the best for the coast line have their opinions out there for us to see and hear and be informed with.

[blindpig]

68. Yeah, seems like BP don't want no ecologists hanging around

unless they are on the payroll.

I have nothing but contempt for biologists who sell their souls to the murderers of biodiversity.

Yes, it is absolutely necessary that a wide range of analysis be brought to bear, something BP fears greatly. This is a holding action for them, if they can keep independent observers out of the area long enough the dead turtles, birds and fish will sink, out of sight, out of mind.

[seabeyond]

72. i listened to a program this morning with scientists in LA being a part of it.

i am not seeing BP able to keep only their scientists at hand. as i say, there are scientists from private, govt and i guess thru you BP on this.

[blindpig]

60. No

The government should allow BP to continue to run this operation as an exercise in CYA? No way in hell. Use the BP equipment and personnel as necessary, all management decisions should be made with the commonweal as the guiding principle and that sure as hell ain't in BP's charter.

[AllentownJake]

65. The minute that happens

Responsibility shifts.

I think this is an impossible task, why would I shift responsibility.

[blindpig]

69. Fuck the politics

BP is using it's position to minimize the greatest environmental crime in history, that's reason enough.

[AllentownJake]

76. It is going to happen regardless

When I say I think they have opened pandora's box and there is nothing that can be done to mitigate or prevent damage. I honestly mean that.

If you have a different opinion, than I understand your position.

[blindpig]

84. I fear you are correct about not mitigating this disaster

The issue is allowing BP to conduct a coverup under government auspices regardless of how effective it will be. Of course it will all come out in the end, but in the meantime there will be laws, bills, regulations and fines proposed, these must be informed by reality, not corporate perception management.

[AllentownJake]

86. The government and BP will conspire to suppress information

For now it is in both of their best interest. When the cost of the disaster start to mount, the prisoners dilemma will take over and BP and the government do not trust each other.

[DevonRex]

132. Exactly. They will both have to do what prevents the worst case scenario

from happening. BP's worst case scenario would be not getting any of the oil from this operation and going bankrupt to pay damages.

The government's worst case scenario is to be seen as liable for the disaster. That's a pretty easy one to handle with putting the facts out when it becomes necessary and good to do so.

In other words, BP's situation will be much, much worse in terms of believability. Which is good for us in terms of liability for damages to be pinned on BP.

The question I have is whether the US can at some point seize BP's assets to help pay for this disaster. And how long would it take to litigate it in court? And at what point would such a case need to be made? I say bleed them for what they're worth as long as we can in terms of getting this under control. Maybe let them get on their feet a bit more. And then file suit to seize their assets. Those assets need to be worth something in order for us to recoup some of our losses.

And if I were in charge, some of that money would go to the fishermen.

[swilton]

66. No way to fix this mess for 90 days

Those are BP's talking points...Their credibility is questionable vis a vis involvement in previous catastrophes, though not of this magnitude.

There are other experts out there and they should be solicited - this is a national disaster that affects the eco-system that protects us all - it should be treated as a national emergency and every molecule of expertise within and outside of BP should be summoned to resolve the leakage problem as well as protecting the ecosystem.

Go ahead and let BP toy around with stopping the leak - whether or not that can be done can be decided by petroleum engineers.

But they need to call in tankers to capture the leaking oil ASAP - protecting the environment for the human and non-humans who depend upon it should be the top priority. They also should be investigating other mechanisms to separate the seawater from petroleum.

[AllentownJake]

67. Actually BP is trying every crazy idea they can come up with

They didn't invest 5 years of marketing as a green company to watch it go up in smoke overnight.

90 days is not a BP talking point. It is a reality based community talking point.

I don't know why people believe that when someone believes something can't happen they prepare for it happening.

[joeybee12]

70. Another sickening post...might as well be arguing with teabaggers

now.

[AllentownJake]

77. Let me put it this way

What resources does the Federal Government have to deal with this. They outsourced all the oil clean-ups in the gulf during the war.

What do you propose that the government is going to do, sprinkle pixie dust?

I'm not arguing that BP or the government is better.

I'm arguing we have done something that cannot be undone.

[PufPuf23]

75. I disagree - The disaster should have been federalized long ago

We had many here at DU argue that this could not be done but now we know that is not the case.

The MMS provided cover to BP et al when this and other deep water projects were given Categorical Exclusions under NEPA. The failure in permitting that has allowed the disaster is far more corrupt than watching porn, taking gifts, or partying. Competent scientists were ignored and scientists compliant to corrupt federal management allowed failure of NEPA. This is how we get politicians that end up Chairman of Halliburton and then Vice President with secret oil meetings and wars for oil based upon lies.

An EIS would have included a "no action" alternative, cumulative impact assessment, identification of adequate safety mechanisms, monitoring requirements, etc. Scientists preparing an EIS for drilling a well a mile under water may well have concluded that "no action" because of the risk and scientific unknowns that needed to be resolved before the specific project. At the very least, state of the art best management practices for risk (such as pre-drilled relief well(s), sonic shut offs, pre-staged skimming tankers, etc.) would have been identified and required. The EIS for each deep water well should have been tiered to a higher level programmatic EIS for protection of the coast, marine habitats, and to mitigate ecologic, social, and economic impacts of worst case disaster.

Early federalization would not have meant BPs specialists , ROVs, and other assets were excluded; rather the operations would be more transparent to the government and public and controlled by the feds. Other assets and talent would be more readily procured and inserted to work with BP in the attempt to stop the gusher and mitigate the damage. Decisions could not be made behind closed doors by the perps. The longer the POTUS waits to federalize, the more time for BP to hide the magnitude and otherwise obscure their actions and liabilities.

The government was involved in the drilling by allowing the action without adequate science, safeguards, and monitoring. The economic damage is going to far exceed the market capitalization of BP, Halliburton, and TransOcean. I found it ironic that the National Guard was sent to Arizona rather than not already a strong presence in the gusher disaster.

Politics should not be a consideration.

[amborin]

81. at this point, it makes sense to let BP handle the 'top kill' attempt & relief wells

since they have as much motivation to shut this down as we do


but the disaster management should be a massive fed response, currently sorely lacking

[florida08]

94. Best thread I've seen in a while

Thoughtful discussion with differing points of view. Jake at this point I think you're probably right. Had the government known what to do to begin with, the damage could have been minimized. We should have had tankers out there taking the oil out as it surfaced while BP worked on sealing the open pipe. A coordinated effort in theory could have worked. That's why others here believe the government should take over now because BP has had most of the control and nothing is getting better. Shouldn't have happened in the first place but here we are. The government should have been involved in oversight from the moment of the explosion imho. Real hands on operation with knowledgable people calling the shots and not BP.

The horse is out of the barn and everyone is now seriously looking for him..over a month later! Too little too late. The dispersant is making it worse. Bigger environmental mess. Don't think the top kill will work either. Not sure how seriously BP or the government took this in the beginning. Government assumed BP could fix it because BP lied and said 'sure we have backup procedures to contain any problem.' Oops..not true in this case. I agree at this juncture. Let this be on their heads. Am sure they would love to pass the responsibility onto the government. I just hope there is some actual changes in how fast we are to trust these people in the future..if there's one left.

[ima_sinnic]

96. the immediate task at hand of "fixing the leak" is BP's, but overall disaster mgt should be federal

People's livelihoods have been destroyed--how is BP going to "help" them?
There is vast ecological damage that needs remediating--that is NOT BP's "expertise"
Who should be interfacing with the media? Why should BP have any say in who can photograph what on what beaches? BP is just a contractor--the beaches belong to the people.
Nobody's reassuring us that stringent safeguards and regulations are in the works--NOW--and that deep housecleaning is going on at MMS. Nobody's firing Salazar for even the appearance of corruption, conflict of interest, and incompetence.

I mean, hello, all it took for Van Jones to "resign" was a signature on a petition calling for impeachment of Bush or something -- the "scandal" that "diverted attention" from "more important things" or some crap. I couldn't believe how quickly Van Jones "resigned" for virtually nothing.

Yet the scandal of a corrupt MMS in the face of a disaster of this magnitude doesn't even earn a "stern rebuke"? WHY THE FUCK NOT?

So fuck whoever's "in charge." Because until that SOB Salazar is fired and things brought out in the open, including a total shakedown of MMS, the obsession with "drilling permits" chilled until REGULATION and SAFEGUARDS are in place, and remediation/compensation for ruined lives made available, whoever's "in charge" isn't doing SHIT.

[DevonRex]

100. AJ, you are exactly right. Once again your common sense has come through.

We often disagree on political matters. But on matters like this you have a clear-headed approach that gets right to the root of the problem.

[TheKentuckian]

109. I disagree. BP can only be counted on to not be responsible

The government should have direct oversight, command, and control of the situation and all resources brought to bear.

BP in control has more chance of making a bad situation worse than better because other than shutting off the gusher at what they deem a reasonable cost our primary interests are divergent.

See a more detailed explanation of my thoughts on this here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x314265

[LLStarks]

112. I dunno. Everything feels so free marketish. nt

[Strelnikov_]

118. One action I would advise is to request $2 B and contract

to start at least four more "bottom kill" bores. Two are currently being drilled.

A recent deepwater blowout, as I recall, required seven relief well tries before success.

Also, this is a difficult formation leaving little room for human error. A blowout could easily occur at one of the relief wells. Therefore, all wells should be mutually supporting and depth staggered to remain out of the hydrocarbon (danger) zone until it is clear penetration is required.

The Government could take these actions independent of BP, and sort out the costs later.

[Peacetrain]

119. Cup of coffee coming your way...

Not often you and I have been in agreement lately.. ;)..

[AllentownJake]

130. Stop it you are scaring me nt.

[Peacetrain]

135. Cookie maybe?

Don't worry we will be ripping each other apart tomorrow.. hey even in the trenches the opposition would share a cigarette.

Besides we are not really the enemy.. just the French and the English so to speak fighting the same battle against the same enemy.


"En garde, mon ami!"

[AllentownJake]

138. I'm sure by August we'll be singing the same tune

GOP stupidity has a tendency to do that.

[PurityOfEssence]

122. You should be in the administration, since ass-covering is the primary concern

A REAL leader would marshall everything in sight, bring in every company, introduce competition between these groups, loosen restrictions on European Skimmers that aren't up to snuff, threaten, cajole, inspire, exhort and stick his neck out.

His response hasn't been HORRIBLE, but it's been far too submissive and trusting, and it reeks of ass-covering. This is an ecological DISASTER, and it's time to fuck politeness and political safety; it's time to do everything possible to clamp this gusher off and contain the mess.

I don't give a tinker's cuss for how he "plays" this and, much as I appreciate the no-win nature of this predicament, I'm more concerned for the environment than for his political laurels. Discussions of that topic make me seethe.

[AllentownJake]

126. A nuclear bomb has gone off

You aren't going to stop the radiation. Deal with the consequences of the radiation the best you can.

[PurityOfEssence]

140. By that metaphor, they're STILL going off, and the method of stopping this is the question

The clean-up and dispersant issue is also a bit different: how clean is clean?

Has BP done everything it possibly could have done, regardless of expense, with all the tools of all the companies that could help? Is it a good thing to reinforce the primacy of corporations by standing on the sidelines wringing one's hands and making flaccid demands that sometimes get flatly ignored?

Sparring with assumptions is much of what politics is all about. We really can't "punish" them by taking them off this; it would be attacked as nationalizing and socialism and all that, but we CAN stand over their shoulder, bring in other companies' people and equipment to help, not just let them use dispersants we don't like, and keep the heat on them. To a certain degree, we're doing most of this, but there could be more, and cringing in the face of a corporation is also NOT a good idea.

This is not a simple situation with simple situations, and some of the heat Obama's taken for being submissive is not justified; that's life, though: he's reaping the harvest of his corporatism, and that's just too bad.

This is not a "thing that's happened", it's a thing that's very much still going on, and we SHOULD climb onto the bridge and grab some binoculars.

[KonaKane]

127. The administration doesnt have the technology to fix this. What do you suggest?

[AllentownJake]

128. That is my question

by the time the technology is developed they will have a relief well.

The time for the technology was before they drilled.

Nobody plans for something that isn't supposed to happen.

[KonaKane]

147. Right. I'd rather be pissed off about something they could actually solve

rather than something they cannot. Take Afghanistan, I really want us out of there and the executive branch could do it tomorrow if they really wanted to.

[Nikki Stone1]

137. Once the government takes over, BP can legally claim any results are the government's fault

I actually agree with Obama here. This is a good move on his part.

[inna]

141. Unconscionable.

Yeah, let BP dump millions of gallons of toxic, carcinogenic, mutagenic poison in the Gulf with impunity - while they claim the trade secrets privilege.


"So for political, economic, and ecological reasons let BP continue to twist in the wind with the impossible task they created."

Jake, excuse me, but are you completely out of your mind??? What BP is doing right now approaches the level of environmental/ecological terrorism at this point. They are POISONING the Gulf and creating an ecological CATASTROPHE.



Oh fuck. :banghead: Never mind. I'm just absolutely incredulous... INCREDULOUS at some of this stuff lately. :banghead:

[AllentownJake]

143. What do you think can be done?

Honestly, do you think the President has the ability to magically make this stop?

Do you think we have the resources to stop this just sitting around and we won't.

As a long time auditor who has been called in on some idiotic things in my life here is one thing I know.

People do not prepare fo something they did not think was possible of happening.

Here is the scary truth, BP opened a Pandora's box. The government nor BP do not know what can be done to stop it short of a solution that takes 3 months to implement.

[Individualist]

148. +1

[William Z. Foster]

142. why have a government?

Why have any government at all?

Your argument undermines and sabotages the very concept of government, the purpose of government. The same logic you are using here could be applied in every case. There would be no purpose for government anywhere - other than as a police force to keep us all in line for the benefit of the corporations, and as an occasional referee between two competing corporations that were having a dispute.

It has been shocking to watch so many Democrats abandoning the traditional positions of the party, the principles and ideals of the political left and liberalism and progressive politics. But now people are making arguments that take us back much farther than that. Monarchies were more progressive than what people are advocating regarding BP and the disaster in the Gulf.

If people have given up on these two statements, I do think all is lost. Given up? It is worse than that. The last few days we have people contradicting and arguing against the sentiments in these two statements.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed."

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

We are seeing Democrats who are now arguing in favor of some sort of corporate neo-feudalism.

[AllentownJake]

144. If the Government had the ability to do something

Yes your argument is valid.

I'll ask you this, in the Iraq War, when there were oil fires who was responsible for putting them out....we subcontracted it.

Our government is not equipped to handle this, whether it should be or not is an entirely different argument.

Let us deal with the here and now, our government is not able to plug the hole in the ocean floor anymore than BP. Nor is it equipped to clean up this mess anymore than BP.

Our Military is designed to blow shit up, not clean up oil.

[KonaKane]

149. Why assume the government knows everything? I can assure you it does not.

I want a government. Moreover I want an effective, socially just government. One that does the right thing for the right reasons. But its pure nuts to expect the government to do something about an incident it simply does not possess the technology to deal with. What do you expect from them in that case?

[William Z. Foster]

152. it is?

Its pure nuts to expect the government to control, direct and mange an operation and see to it that the public interest is protected?

Since when? Since BP's public relations team kicked into overdrive and Democrats started falling for their line, that's when.

Nationalization of the response to this disaster would deprive us of no technology, no expertise, and no equipment. To think that it would is to undermine and sabotage the very concept of government, to deny the very purpose of having a government. That is an argument for privatization, and politically it is the extreme libertarian position. It is coming from BP's public relations department. To hear government officials repeating the BP public relations line, and then have it repeated again and again here is new - and it is a thing of nightmares, our worst nightmares, and I fear that there will now be much more of the same to come.

A line has been crossed. Democrats are being led by the nose to make the most extreme anti-government arguments, to deny any role for the federal government in protecting public interest and promoting the public welfare.

I have offered numerous examples of government involvement to protect public welfare when at the time the government did not have the equipment or expertise to tackle the problem alone. That is not the role of the government - to be merely another competing corporation, or partner to corporations, and a weak one at that.

Only the federal government has the power and authority, as well as the duty and responsibility, to take charge of the response to an emergency of this magnitude. This is the main reason to have a government at all. Clearly. Take those two things away, and we may as well drown it in the bathtub and stop kidding ourselves about it. I never thought that this could possibly be controversial, other than with an extreme libertarian fringe.

Yet people here are arguing that the government is not the appropriate tool for the job, and that the operation must therefore be privatized. People - Democrats! - are arguing against the very foundation and purpose of government.

The libertarian extremists, the right wing think tanks, and the corporate public relations people have won. They have won the most important battle, achieved their greatest success.

[William Z. Foster]

145. so BP is in charge, or BP isn't...

So hard to follow this as the talking points keep evolving day to day.

The line between corporations and the government has become so blurred, that the people arguing both sides of this - that it should not be federalized, AND that it already IS federalized, are right - in a way.

It is both!

Here is an interesting thread about the information site people are sending us to (to either prove that the government is in charge, or to prove that the government should not be in charge - depending.)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8434270

That "government information site" people are prompting as a rebuttal to the critics of the response to the disaster? Even THAT has been privatized.

So the message machine cranking out the information used to deny that this is a privatized operation is itself privatized.

[Swamp Rat]

146. Just got back from Venice, LA. - I did not see much going on.

Most boats were moored.

All helos were on the ground except one.

One small pile of booms.

Very few personnel, except workers going to and leaving Conoco, Halliburton and BP blds.

Where the fuck is our help?