We are ALL complicit.

[Kali]

Unless you are living without a car or any petroleum products (is that even possible?) you are a part of the cause. I know I prefer to pay $2 or 3/gallon for gas as opposed to 5 or 10. I know my whining and demands for my right to drive a vehicle played a part in this disaster.

[RandomThoughts]

1. Some of it is due to stolen free will though.

Because people were not educated at what was happening, and instead told to buy big cars and not think on anything but price, they did not have information to make a choice, so fault goes to those that manipulated the information.

There are ways people can do better, but many of the advances that were shelved in the 70s were not spoken of on the news, or even in some politics, many of the problems were lied about, and many people were able to either stay ignorant, or in willful ignorance, so their is less blame for some. And might even be able to say some credit for those that tried to move in better directions with what they did know.

[stray cat]

8. People know they use oil and want it cheap and don't want prices increasing across the board

because of freight charge increases.

[wildbilln864]

12. Harry Anslinger....

& Dupont really screwed us all IMO! :banghead:

[patrice]

2. Unless you have done/are doing whatever you can to end this slavery, you/we are complicit.

And, yes, the definition of "can" is relative, but there probably is something(s) that almost each and every person CAN do and if everyone would, things would be different.

There's just this childish, oversimplified, displaced idea of how things happen in this country that is used to justify a lot of copping out. All of us participate in that in the ways that serve "our own interests" best. And the only way you can DEMAND change from others is if you are doing your part to change yourself. I'd like to get to that place where we can make those kinds of demands on TPB, but it must begin with individuals accepting their own responsibilities for what IS possible in their own lives.

[JoeyT]

3. I'm pretty sure it isn't possible to live and not use a petroleum product.

Even if you're being careful to buy organic locally grown produce...SOMETHING has to run the tractors that break the soil up and the truck that takes it to the market.

While we're all complicit, I don't think it lessens BP's blame either. There's plenty to go around.

[stevenleser]

28. You are exactly right and I think that is part of the OP's point

I doubt that anyone in the civilized world is completely free of responsibility.

[pipi_k]

36. Not only that, but...

there are literally thousands of products made from petroleum.

There is absolutely no way to avoid coming into contact with oil products, using them, or causing them to be used.


So in that way, yep, we're all complicit, but there's also no way to avoid it.


I don't think the people who are running around saying we should all "do what we can" really get it. IMO, unless the whole world decides to stop using oil, the protests by a few thousands of Americans and the impact on Big Oil is like trying to melt a glacier by peeing on it.

[LakeSamish706]

4. Nope, that doesn't excuse the short cuts that PB took that directly caused this

disaster. We may be indirectly responsible, but we didn't take risks to cause this problem.

[spanone]

5. not so. if bp didn't do their job on the cheap, this could have been prevented..

[glitch]

6. Broadbrush provides cover for the criminally negligent and lumps Hummers with Schwinns

(yes schwinns: plastic parts and petroleum based tires)

IOW lazy, ineffective and shallow non-analysis.

PS We could have enforced regulations.

[stevenleser]

30. I think the OP's statement goes deeper than that.

There shouldn't have been a need for any rigs at all. We could easily have been at a point where we use renewable energy by now. The oil embargo in the mid 1970s should have put us in emergency mode to get there. It would have been doable in 25 years. Its still doable in 25 years or less.

But you are also right that the difference in complicity is huge. There are some of us who deserve a $1 fine and some who figuratively deserve the death penalty.

[glitch]

34. Agreedish.

I do stomp a little hard when I see the "we are all guilty" meme used because that sticks easier in the psyche than the complexity.
If someone can only take away a little information from a complex issue I would rather that little bit be more useful. For example, your last line is perfect (well, maybe lose the "figuratively").

[Cerridwen]

7. No, we're not. Do you understand the dynamics of power *over*?

I have as much power as a slug in my garden. The CEO of BP; though one person; has magnitudes of power over me and others.

No, we're not equal in power *over* others and those who think so have been pwned by the PTB to think so.

You think you and 20 of your friends have the same amount of power *over* as AIG and 20 of "its/their" closest friends?

Catch a clue. The dynamics of power *over* mean you and I count for squat. They, on the other hand, can make mincemeat of you and me; won't break a sweat and will continue on as though you and I don't exist.

[stray cat]

9. You have power over whether you use oil or anything that used oil to transport or manufacture

all of us together make up the whole.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Richardo]

39. What would that be?

Name something in this society that does NOT use a product of oil at some in its production, delivery or sale.

[Kali]

19. a slug can fuck up a good portion of a new garden so I would say it had a certain amount of power

but I wasn't actually trying in any way to proportion out the responsibility, just that our collective insatiable demand for petroleum is a part of it. I see all these posts ranting at bp and the govt - justifiably for sure, but not much self-awareness about our part in it all. I confess to posting that in a moment of emotional reaction to the whole thing.

[FedUpWithIt All]

25. BP has power because people need their oil. n/t

[Jennicut]

11. We are complicit in that we are used to a certain way of life, which has led

to us needing to find oil even in harder to get to places. But BP did cut corners. Is off shore drilling safe for the environment at all? It is a question we need to ask.

[Individualist]

13. Fail. Unrec.

[Subdivisions]

14. Oil, and the increasing lack thereof, is going to deal with us. n/t

[laughingliberal]

15. Another moral equivalency post? nt

[sendero]

16. You are an idiot..

.. we are not.

[Kali]

18. why do you call me an idiot?

[HCE SuiGeneris]

31. Laziness, and an apathy towards involvement in controlling the direction

of one's destiny through active governing, has led us to this point. The Supreme Court installed the Chimp and Cheney, and we did nothing. The 911 commission was nothing but an obfuscating kangaroo court that protected the rich and shat upon the real heroes... and again, we lapped it up.

The Iraq war was shoved down our throat. we knew it was based on lies. Did we do anything? Fuck no.
This is a nation of lapdogs, waiting to be kicked. It's pathetic.

[sendero]

33. Because I'm sick and tired of this false ..

... analogy.

I spend money so I am responsible for the credit crisis?

I eat so I am responsible for animals raised for food cruelly?

I smoked a joint once so I am responsible for drug cartel violence?

I buy my wife a diamond ring so I am responsible for the violence associated with SOME diamond mining?

No, I am not. There is nothing inherently wrong with using petroleum products. Even if you do not drive a car at all, you use them every single day. What is wrong is businessmen rolling the dice where it is heads they win and tails everyone else loses, and that is the dominant business model in America today.

I am not responsible for that, REPUBLICAN ANTI-REGULATION MORONS ARE, and I believe in giving blame where blame is due.

[inna]

41. +1

well said

[county worker]

17. What caused this disaster was people not taking responsibility for the safety of drilling.

This is about the 3rd or 4th post like this I've seen since the spill. My question is what do you get out of guilt tripping people?

[laughingliberal]

22. It helps with letting the oil companies off the hook. Like, "What could they do? We demanded it.

We all may very well use products which require petroleum but BP killed 11 people (this time) and destroyed an entire Gulf for the forseeable future for want of a half million dollar piece of equipment. The moral equivalency argument is bullshit.

[kas125]

20. WRONG... Some of us have been working, protesting,

writing our reps, going to meetings, telling everyone we know for years how evil BP is. They've been polluting Lake Michigan and the area where I live forever and we've been fighting them for as long as I remember. It's only now, when what they've done is on television that anyone cares what the hell BP has been doing for years and years to KILL our world.

[Vickers]

21. Ridiculous. K&U n/t

[KonaKane]

23. Complicit doesn't mean culpable. Your insinuation is offensive.

I have no choice in the matter, but the society in which I live is based on petroleum. It was so before I was even born. To try and lay this crap on those of us who simply operate as we must in our everyday lives to keep food on the table and a roof over our heads, is offensives beyond belief.

I have done numerous things in my life to try and put a dent in our dependency on oil. I've become politically involved. I've gone without a car for several years of my life (which I posted on another thread). I've conciously reduced my daily activities that consume petroleum. So kindly take your pedagogical self righteous hyperbole and cram it up your ass for me.

[greyl]

24. To wildly varying degrees, yes. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. You are onto something (and it is not popular)

though at a far more deeper level you hit the nail in the proverbial head and didn't even notice, or perhaps you did.

Here

(is that even possible?)

What you hit there is the fact that the base of our civilization, no... not the US, a GLOBAL, WORLD spanning civilization, depends on oil for everything.

So we are at a point where people do not realize just how much into this they are. Look I will give you an example that most people don't think about. You eat right? Well those crops depend on the green revolution which has allowed us humans to go well beyond the carrying capacity of the planet. But they are fully dependent on oil.

We are at peak oil, and we, as a civilization, will have to make some really big changes or we are in deep doodoo land.

Oh and the reaction as to personal responsibility, as infinitesimal as it may be, or not... that is a debate we can have... is not to be unexpected. I've been getting it too. Some people like to call that blaming us when we are just acting like individuals...

Of course the funny one has been the... people who hate the system, but provide "free market" solutions to this. In reality the changes needed are so damn large and unfathomable that just the "free market," whatever remains of that, will simply not do.

But yes, we do have some responsibility, alas moving away from this is not something you or I can do... but our civilization will have to, or it WILL collapse.

[William Z. Foster]

27. no choice

People have no choice. There is no public transportation system.

[inna]

29. blame it all on the workers, shift responsibility away from those who actually are in charge right n

ow.

way to go.

[G_j]

32. yes, but perspective matters, a reminder,

http://www.energybulletin.net/node/13199


The US military oil consumption
by Sohbet Karbuz

The US Department of Defense (DoD) is the largest oil consuming government body in the US and in the world

“Military fuel consumption makes the Department of Defense the single largest consumer of petroleum in the U.S”

“Military fuel consumption for aircraft, ships, ground vehicles and facilities makes the DoD the single largest consumer of petroleum in the U.S”

According to the US Defense Energy Support Center Fact Book 2004, in Fiscal Year 2004, the US military fuel consumption increased to 144 million barrels. This is about 40 million barrels more than the average peacetime military usage.

By the way, 144 million barrels makes 395 000 barrels per day, almost as much as daily energy consumption of Greece.

The US military is the biggest purchaser of oil in the world.

In 1999 Almanac edition of the Defense Logistic Agency’s news magazine Dimensions it was stated that the DESC “purchases more light refined petroleum product than any other single organization or country in the world. With a $3.5 billion annual budget, DESC procures nearly 100 million barrels of petroleum products each year. That's enough fuel for 1,000 cars to drive around the world 4,620 times.”

..more..



http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN20416568



FACTBOX-US military fuel spending
Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:58pm EDT

U.S. military fuel consumption dwarfs energy demand in many countries around the world, adding up to nearly double the fuel use in Ireland and 20 times more than that of Iceland, according to the U.S. Department of Energy.

From the start of the Iraq war in 2003 up till 2007, U.S. military fuel consumption has slipped by about 10 percent, but costs more than doubled due surging oil prices.

Following are the latest figures on the cost and amounts of fuel purchased by the U.S. military over the course of the Iraq war:

U.S. MILITARY FUEL SPENDING:^

2003: $ 5.21 billion

2007: $12.61 billion

Percentage increase: 142 percent

U.S MILITARY FUEL CONSUMPTION

2003: 145.1 million barrels

(397,500 barrels per day)

2007: 132.5 million barrels

(363,000 barrels per day)

Percentage change: -9.5 percent

2007 U.S. MILITARY FUEL CONSUMPTION EQUALS

- 90 percent more than Ireland's annual consumption

- 38 percent more than Israel's annual consumption

- 20 times Iceland's annual consumption

- 1.7 percent of U.S. annual consumption

AVERAGE ESTIMATED CRUDE OIL PRICE PER BARREL:

2003: $32.50

2007: $72.50

CRUDE OIL PRICE CHANGE SINCE BEGINNING OF IRAQ WAR:

March 19, 2003: $ 29.88*

March 19, 2008: $103.25*

Percentage increase: 245 percent


<snip>

[TransitJohn]

35. +1 Sadly, DU loves to vilify others and not look at things rationally

thanks for the post.
:kick:

[joeybee12]

37. Yep, those of us who take the bus when we can. who carpool, WHO DO OUR SHARE

to use LESS are jsut as guilty as greedy little you and OBama who doesn't have the word CONSERVATION in his dictionary, or if he does, it's written over by the words, CORPORATE GIVE-AWAY.

[Richardo]

38. Just because I use petroleum does NOT make me complicit.

I have an expectation that those involved in the extraction, transportation and refining of petroleum products be required to do so safely and cleanly. That they choose (are are allowed) NOT to do so has nothing to do with me.

Sorry, I don't buy in to the group-guilt thing. I'm responsible for my own actions, not anyone else's.

[NeedleCast]

40. Daily Guilt Thread

Nope, still not buying the group-think, group-guilt mentality.