Have to vent. Just came back from a board meeting for a grad school program at our state college...

[newtothegame]

Today's students lack even the most basic necessities, like real-world knowledge, real-world skills, work experience, etc. Even worse, these kids are graduating with $50k+ in student loans for a BACHELOR'S DEGREE, from a STATE COLLEGE.

Instead of colleges spending money on classroom-to-work programs, here are some great ways colleges spend money today:

-Paying millions for the purchase and installation of artwork that I could make in my garage for free if asked to

-Encouraging students in their completely obscure and useless degrees. For instance, "Religious and Ethnic Identity amongst Homosexual Bobbin Boys in the Late Baroque Period." (and yes, this was very similar to an actual thesis of a classmate of mine in grad school)

-Retaining professors through tenure that:
1) Are in academia because they were too scared of the real world
2) Gave up on caring about teaching years ago because they don't need to care. I'm on the board for a grad program here in town, and we have professors that refuse to use email with their students or with other professors and will NEVER have to use it, and there is not a damn thing anyone can do about it, even if we have a 100 enthusiastic and willing professors ready to take their place.

ed for sp

[Dont TS Me Brah]

1. absolutely true. Agreed! nt +1000

[musette_sf]

9. nice username

[Starry Messenger]

2. Wow, you got everything in there except for "ivory tower elitist" n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

7. Yeah.

Even went on the "abstract art is dumb, my three year old could do that" tangent.

[Cant trust em]

14. Philistines of the world unite! nt

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

I like the "just got back from a board meeting at the grad school" part...

"Well, I just finished building my ship in the bottle at the crusty old Dean's office, when suddenly..."

[Dont TS Me Brah]

18. you must be artist then Mr. pornsyrup.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

22. No. I'm just literate.

[newtothegame]

46. So you're saying that $5m worth of art on a campus WOULDN'T fund 4-year educations..

for 100 students.

Seriously, if the college asks me, I'll make the the metal thing out on the front lawn in my garage. And I'll do it for free. That's $5m. $50k for 4 years education=100 students that can now attend college. Nice corporatist attitude you got there though; how's it feel to be in the super-rich?

[Ignis]

47. "Kandinsky?!? Looks more like Vomitinsky to me!"

:rofl:

[EFerrari]

54. . . .

:rofl:

[Cant trust em]

13. I knew I didn't have to go there because someone else would.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

16. +1

[donco6]

62. Yep.

Why bother with grad school? It sounds like a trade school is what this guy really wanted.

[Tailormyst]

63. And latte machines, I bet they spend money on those too!

[liberalhistorian]

64. LOL, you beat me to it!

Maybe OP is in his garage painting pictures of ivory towers, instead. Snicker.

BTW, as the daughter of two (now retired) teachers, I've been meaning to tell you that I absolutely LOVE your sig line!

[Starry Messenger]

68. Thanks LH!

:D And thank you to everyone else who responded to me! The OP sounds like some of the IT guys I know in CA. They consider themselves uber-"utilitarians" and would gladly shovel everyone into the techo-serf system they willing prop up. They consider themselves to the the elite vanguard of future-tech and then turn around and accuse others of being classist. It would be funny, except these themes are also being supported by the guy in my sig. :(

[Cant trust em]

3. What is an exactly is a classroom to work program?

I'm not familiar with this.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

5. Sounds like a tech school.

[newtothegame]

10. It's anything that creates actual EXPERIENCE for these kids.

So that prospective employers see some value in the degree they just spent 4 years and $50k+ obtaining.

[sandnsea]

15. They're called internships

And if the employer doesn't understand the value of a degree, then that's an employer who probably needs to develop their own training program and hire high school drop-outs.

[Cant trust em]

17. Is there something specific you can offer, or is this just a term you made up? nt

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

19. English, please. We don't speak Talkingpointese. -nt

[liberalhistorian]

65. So you think the only purpose of college is to get

a job and make money, period? You don't see any VALUE at all in expanding intellectual knowledge and curiosity and learning to analyze matters and think critically on a wide variety of subjects and problems? You don't think employers see the value in that instead of just rote inside-the-box learning? You think they don't see the value of people who have a range of knowledge and can apply that knowledge and think critically? You have a problem with learning not just for a job but for knowledge's sake as well?

[Tailormyst]

67. Yes it's called Vocational Technical High School

Most communities have them. Or you could try the local Agricultural High School.

There are also lots of certificate schools that prepare one just for a job.

Colleges try to prepare the mind for a life beyond just a mundane job.

[sandnsea]

12. I would call it an internship

Since the OP is about college.

[Cant trust em]

21. I hope the OPer is familiar enough with the idea of internship before posting...

about what higher ed lacks.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

4. Lulz.

Sounds like the typical "college stupids is dumb" anti-intellectual crap we get from the RW. Oh, theses are too academic. Colleges should be run like businesses. Let's do away with tenure.

Blah blah blah.

[newtothegame]

20. This is why DU is more amusing than helpful alot of the time...

Instead of offering real-world ways to lower the costs and raise the quality of education, most on here just say "Make it cheaper."

You offer no hope, encouragement, or light at the end of the tunnel for these kids, but you sure as hell will shoot down any idea that tries.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

24. I have far more respect for these kids than you do.

If you actually talk to most of them, you'll find they think your ideas are disgusting and laughable.

[newtothegame]

25. I do. I'm an adjunct professor, teaching non-profit management. I bet I talk to them a bit more...

than you do friend.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

26. I'm an astronaut.

[newtothegame]

30. I'm sorry I've angered you so much. Actually, I'm kind of amused :). Is that evil?

Find some happiness. Hug a puppy, something.

Warm hugs and kisses,
newtothegame

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

32. You're not half as amused as I am.

[Dont TS Me Brah]

34. lol... yeah that sums it up.

[JVS]

28. Non-profit? Who the fuck needs that in real world? You're teaching them to manage failures!

They should fire you and only let you come back when you can teach them how to profit.

[newtothegame]

31. Yeah I have a feeling that's coming. nt

[liberalhistorian]

66. HA! Good one!

Actually, if he really does teach non-profit management then I'm very surprised he feels this way and is so anti-intellectual. Frankly, you can have both in a college education; intellectual breadth and knowledge AND good experience. It shouldn't be an either-or proposition.

[izzybeans]

29. Why aren't you pissed about the exploitation of adjuncts then? That's the biggest scandal in

higher learning.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

50. We associate/adjunct profs knew what we signed up for

Those of us in the techie fields in particular are teaching by choice.

[izzybeans]

51. That's nice for you I guess.

As a former adjunct, the majority of my colleagues were not adjuncts by choice, but circumstance. I went back to the private sector because I prefer being payed while being jerked around.

I agree with your post below btw. Very well put.

[lolly]

58. You mean we knew what we had no choice about?

Or, do you think we all turned down one of the thousands of unfilled, well-paying tenure track jobs currently available?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

59. If you were headed down the academia path, you should have understood ahead of time what it meant

to be an associate/adjunct and that tenure was far from guaranteed. Its not like it is a well kept secret. Its is a totally foreseeable consequence of the choices we made. We should not be whining about it anymore than the recent grads who chose unmarketable degrees.

[Posteritatis]

35. And yet you assume a thesis is the entirety of a degree. (nt)

[Cant trust em]

42. I'm glad you brought up non-profit management.

I work in development and though I have a lot of good skills from my 7 years of experience there, I want to break out of that. Once you get into development, it's easy to get pigeonholed as a fundraiser. I'm going back to school for public policy and when I get out I might go back into non-profits, but more from the program side.

[newtothegame]

44. Agreed. Fundraising is a great transition into sales as well. nt

[Cant trust em]

45. and vice versa.

My old director of development came from sales and immediately turned around the department for the better.

[izzybeans]

27. Getting rid of everything that adds real value to education is the answer?

Business schools are a huge drain on education. There is nothing learned in them that can't be trained at company expense. how 'bout that? There are plenty of models of educational finance in this world to choose from. We don't need to turn our children into robots. College teaches them to live in the world as critical citizens, regardless of their chosen field of study.

But you really weren't making a case for improving schools, you were just attacking colleges and professors with well worn tropes.

[liberalhistorian]

70. Bingo. Couldn't have

said it better.

[surrealAmerican]

85. Tuition is too high at state schools because ...

... taxes (which had made up a larger portion of the schools' budgets) have been cut or redirected to places the state deems more necessary. Public art and tenure are a drop in the bucket. Even if schools had no tenure and no art, tuition would remain high.

[izzybeans]

6. .

:rofl:

I didn't know David Horowitz posted on DU.

The only thing you point out that is worth discussion is the debt students leave school with. The reality is that new entrants are entering the workplace better educated and better prepared than ever before.

Why don't we just put them all on an assembly line and insert shit directly into their brains. Automatons of the world unite!

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cant trust em]

11. Yes. Students typically lack work experience.

Isn't that why they're students?

[Sanity Claws]

23. I think some colleges have lost their way

I think many colleges have forgotten their mission of educating students. I have seen colleges use their funds to expand when I think they should work on reducing tuition.
I am shocked at the amount of debt students graduate with. I don't see how they can possibly pay it back.

IMHO.

[Toucano]

33. My professors never used email.

Everything turned out okay.

If that's your biggest gripe about those particular professors, you should let it go.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

36. Actually, there are two principle factors in the rise in college tuition

1) Administrative bloat. All colleges have far more administrators than they did thirty years ago, and they all want to have a staff. Then each staff member figures out a reason why s/he needs a staff. The little buggers multiple in a tree-like pattern.

2) Colleges' attempts to lure students with fancier facilities. When I was in college, our dorm rooms had two beds that converted to couches, two dressers, two built-in desks with three shelves and a bulletin board each, and two small closets. That was it. The bathroom and phones were down the hall. There were no TVs unless students chose to bring one from home. The gym was...a gym. The student center had a cafeteria, a coffee shop, a game room, a mail room, a bookstore, the only TV lounge on campus, and a bunch of multi-purpose meeting rooms.

[Cant trust em]

40. 3) rising cost of health care for staff. nt

[JerseygirlCT]

81. Oh, I'm seeing this now, for sure!

My son is at the same college his parents attended. So the comparison is even more stark. I can't count the number of people who seem to fill the administration of the school now. Mostly nice folks, but wow. And the dorms are now air-conditioned (!), and many are basically apartments. (Which we parents get to pay for on a year-round basis, of course, rather than just the school year).

My dorm was much like yours. We felt lucky, my freshman year, when the heat and hot water were working!

And in the 30 years between the old and the new, tuition has increased 8 fold. The number keeps astounding me - and hurts!

[Gaedel]

86. Parkinson's Law

Staffs in government and academia will grow exponentially over time without regard to workload.

[frazzled]

37. I think the problem may be ...

that no college should have someone of your outlook and critical thinking skills on its board.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

38. LOL

If it makes you feel better, I don't think that any college does.

[readmoreoften]

39. I've got an awesome idea! Let's ban ethnic studies!!!!11!!!!

And who cares about homosexuals in the 18th century! Why study them? Everyone knows they didn't exist!!!! Yes, indeed, arts and the humanities do little to directly feed the corporate beast, so let's get rid of them. :sarcasm:

[ProgressiveProfessor]

49. My issue is with the whining after graduation

I fully believe that students should be able to take such classes and graduate with degrees in same, but only if they sign a no whining pledge. Its their choice and choice has consequences. If you get a degree in a field with no market value, that is your choice but please do not complain about your lack of employment opportunities and the debt you took on afterward.

[EFerrari]

53. I have garbage in my basement I'd donate to the school for free!

:rofl:

[leftstreet]

41. UnRec n/t

[Cant trust em]

43. I will agree with you in one sense...

That students should have a few years of work experience before entering graduate school. That of course depends on the field, but I'd say that in general its important to have some basis on your proposed field of study from the outside before coming back to academia.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

48. As a prof I feel some of your pain, but you need to take a more balanced approach

Yes many graduates have poor job prospects, but that is their choice in terms of majors. Same with thesis topics. However, not everyone goes to college to increase their potential marketability. I see it as the student's choice, but remind them of their choices when they whine about lack of jobs. This also has serious gender impacts that many ignore. Women flock to the poorly paid fields while men continue to dominate the better paid and more sought after technical areas.

I agree about expensive artwork...I would rather see student projects highlighted rather than paid outside work. I feel the same way about architecturally significant buildings that are more expensive than good looking functional buildings would be. There too I feel the college should leverage students and staff and not go outside at higher costs.

I believe one of the best things a college can do is to involved the students in areas appropriate to their areas of study. Internships, CO-OP programs etc are excellent ways for students to see the real world, how what they are doing relates to it, and even determine if this is what they want to do in the long term. Its one of the better investments a college can make.

Profs are a very mixed group. I retired from the *real world* and returned to academia when my wife has rising in her career. As a result I have taught and lectured all over the world. When we returned to the US, I continued to teach as a way to keep busy. I am intentionally not tenure track and turned down a tenured appointment recently at another school. However, I am yet to see the level of conceit or laziness that you describe. Though some of my colleagues are odd (to say the least), all of them care about their field and their students. The flakes and fakes are rare.

[burnsei sensei]

52. I would also like to add

the bonuses and raises university presidents pay themselves.
And the raises and additional perks given to the new managing class, so in evidence in higher learning.
The mission of education has been diluted.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

55. God forbid the tykes might want to think for themselves and not join the Rat Race.

[entanglement]

56. Adjunct gripes about tenured faculty, stop the presses n/t

[Berry Cool]

57. There is no such thing as a degree in

"Religious and Ethnic Identity amongst Homosexual Bobbin Boys in the Late Baroque Period." That's the title of a thesis, maybe, but it's not the title of the degree earned for writing the thesis, and surely you know that.

Don't take easy potshots. Knowledge for its own sake, not just "job training," still matters and if it can't be found on a college campus, where can it be found?

This is not to say colleges are perfect, it's just that you're taking easy potshots.

"College is too expensive"...well, tell us something we don't already know.

"Colleges have all kinds of art I don't understand"...well then, get educated; sometimes it's the art, but sometimes it's YOU.

"Kids graduate from college not knowing anything practical"; well, college is not just about the practical. But if they learn nothing practical in college, at some point one has to question why they didn't notice they were being taught nothing practical before they graduated.

I consider my experience in dealing with red tape one of the most useful aspects of my college education. Every semester the first two years, I had to walk back and forth between a financial aid office and a bursar's office, collecting and presenting paperwork to persuade two different offices, with then-un-networked computing systems, that my bills were paid for, so they would let me register. It was great experience for later life.

[newtothegame]

74. Art is not the problem. I love art...

$5m art that could have paid 4-year tuition for 100 kids IS the problem, especially when the metal sculpture is something just about anyone with free time could have done for free in their garage.

If I put a red dot on a piece of paper and call it 'Anger,' are u saying it's fine for the university to pay me $5m for that "art" instead of sending 100 underprivileged kids to school with that money?

[aikoaiko]

60. Take heart: Public undergrad tuition is free in Georgia if you enter with and maintain a 3.0 GPA

Plus you get $300 a semester for books.

In my department, we mandated a semester internship for everyone earning a BA. The BS has research requirements.

People who don't use email are few and far between, and becoming fewer. Really, how many professors at your university don't use email? Of course, using email is not required to provide an excellent education. We did it for a long time without it.

[seabeyond]

61. i dont get this. i really do. not. understand. i see my kids education above and beyond what my

generation learned in so many ways. all ways. they are learning sooner and more than we ever did. the demand that they know this stuff so beyond us. and continually i hear about these kids total lack of academics.

i want to know wtf the parents were doing that they allow their kids, with opportunities to learn, not learn. because the academics are offered. if these kids are so damn illiterate, it has to be the parents encouraging them to put hands over ears and not listen in class.

[depakid]

69. Sure am glad I didn't attend that institution!

[knitter4democracy]

71. I agree that the costs are exorbitant, but the rest is just whining.

Art needs to be encouraged for a healthy society to prosper. If you want, I can look up the data that shows teaching kids art raises test scores, but the reality is, you wouldn't believe me anyway, most likely. Art is necessary and one of the oldest of human activities.

Profs are profs for many reasons. If they don't want to work with students, there are ways to make that happen in every college/university system. I have heard of grad students having trouble getting a hold of professors and such, but the biggest complaint I've heard is that the profs are too busy to help get their thesis comments back in time. That doesn't sound like entitled, rich guys hiding from their work to me: it sounds like more profs are needed to carry the load.

As for the so-called useless degree, I have one of those. I'm an English major, and if you talk to any business people, they always say that my English degree's a waste of paper. I've heard that a million times. Funny how I was offered a job in almost every place I temped in college, though. One manager told me it was because I knew how to read, write, and communicate, that he couldn't teach the new business grads that but could teach me the business part of the job I'd need to know. Education isn't about getting the skills to get to work: it's about learning how to read, write, and think critically. If you can do those and work hard, you can do almost anything.

As for school-to-work programs, those exist on the tech level, and as for universities, it's called internships. Look it up. They exist.

[newtothegame]

73. I have no problem with art; I collect some favorite artists.

What I do have a problem with is public universities spending millions on metal sculptures that I am willing to create for them in my basement for free using scrap metal from the junkyard. That money could pay for 4-year degrees for 20 kids!

[knitter4democracy]

75. Universities are some of the last real patrons.

It's not like most artists are swimming in money.

As for metal sculptures you could make yourself, I suggest that you try it, if you're that good at it. There's a sculpture that is still outside the lab where my dad worked at Michigan State that many have said looks weird or whatever, but it's become a symbol of the lab in many ways, something that the physicists and engineers ended up liking more than they thought they would. You never know--those sculptures might end up doing more good than you realize. If you can make your own and have your own creative outlet that way, then you should go for it.

By the way, I hear that kind of thing a lot as a knitter. The, "Oh, I could knit that fancy sweater if I wanted, but I just don't want to," or the, "I can buy it cheaper at the store, so why would you knit that?" kind of comments get annoying. We create to create because we're human. If you really think you can make that yourself, I suggest you do so.

[JerseygirlCT]

80. And +1 nt

[JerseygirlCT]

79. THANK YOU

And exactly.

Another "useless" English major here. Work skills are what you learn on the job. Strong communications skills - that old useless reading and writing stuff - is what you need to go learn those other things.

I don't buy the college to learn a job stuff. I buy college to learn. And to learn how to learn.

All those esoteric academic pursuits? Those are the things that enrich our culture and our lives. And the things that those outside academia will not likely ever have the time to pursue.

[branders seine]

72. damned egghead elitists!

Them and their so-called "art" and education!

You're right though about student preparedness and the cost of education.

[lonestarnot]

76. Small in the scheme of things, but an example.

Poor kid being ripped off before he even gets there to the tune of $175 for orientation for the following: registration (he does himself on-line at the university), lunch, (he could brown bag), parking (I could drop him off), tour (I could do for him as alumni). That's it. $175.00 for that bullshit. When I called Crow's office to complain, he's always in a meeting or out to lunch. Yes, ASU, the university of the ripped off, run by bigots.

[marions ghost]

77. What crap

A thinly veiled assault on universities in the name of cutting costs. If you want to insult professors, do it directly.

This is a wingnut perspective trying to pose as concern with rising costs.

[WinkyDink]

78. Academia IS the real world, just not YOUR world.

No place for thinkers and philosophers any more in this make-money world.

And don't bother with the "no can do" "argument"; a man who can understand Henry James and Plato can learn to become a plumber or auto mechanic.
And his imprecations might be on a more learned level!

[skip fox]

82. There are other sides to this.

I'm a tenured prof. and know many. Maybe 8 percent take "on the job retirement," as I put it. To me and many of my colleagues they are like petty theives, stealing their paycheck every month from the state.

I teach a state university and when I started maybe 50 percent were not earning their pay. But we've gotten far better over the past 3 decades through good hires, an emphasis on professionalism, etc.

Unpopular majors might not be for every university, but the need for philosophy, ethics, religious history, etc. are central to our civilization. Are we all supposed to be engineers?

[knitter4democracy]

83. I'm not supposed to be.

I grew up in a family of engineers and am the lone English major in our immediate family. I understand how they think, for the most part, but my brain doesn't quite work that way, so I'm happy where I am--teaching English to kids who don't like English class.

We have gotten better at weeding out the bad professors, and we have gotten better at opening up internship possibilities on the high school and college levels. I understand the costs issue, as I think it's exorbitantly expensive these days, but the other complaints just don't work with reality.

[Bluenorthwest]

84. I'm sorry you did not get tenure, and that you are afraid of

competing as an artist. That is what I get from this. And of course, a whiff of academic homophobia. If this was not the internet where you could lie, I'd like to find out if your pal whose thesis offended you has had more or less happiness in life than you, and also more success. Is that person, for example, holding tenure?
It is wildly amusing that you teach people to run non profs, and also to hate the arts, which seem to generate one hell of a lot of non prof jobs. Y
And I love your endorsement of an almost Soviet way of building our schools. Comrade, why be burdened by the distractions of corrupt, western art forms?
I'd also like to know the name of the 5 million dollar sculpture, the campus it sits on and the artist who made it. Then, please, post an example of your metal art. Please.
Tell us what sculpture you are talking about.