I believe that humans are, by nature, communal, compassionate beings...

[Ardent15]

...and that a system like capitalism enables the relatively few people who are sociopaths to take control of other humans' lives.

The best-functioning societies in human history were certain tribal, communal societies. Yet we are conditioned, brainwashed, programmed, and trained by the sociopaths from the day we are born to be selfish, to oppose our own interests as communities of human beings.

So no, it's not "human nature" to be destructive and greedy, IMO. That's the nature of sociopaths, of people who charm and scheme and lie and con, who DO NOT deserve a place at our table, because they inevitably take more than their fair share. And they know what they are doing is wrong; they just don't care.

At the end of the day, humans who are not sociopaths feel better when they help others. People shouldn't have to worry about being selfish, because everyone is helping each other in an ideal society. But of course, we don't have that, because we have allowed sociopaths to take over, and the more they are empowered, the weaker we are.

Therefore, we have to work to help each other, to stop empowering those who don't care about others, and to stop buying the social and political propaganda about human beings.

Well, that's the end of my little rant about human nature for now! :)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

1. lol

[HCE SuiGeneris]

4. Pray tell, what is it that amuses you so?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

8. Where to begin?

the idea that good human behavior is natural human behavior, while bad human behaviour is not natural human behavior...

The idea that communal tribes are any less violent, greedy, or bad than modern civilization...

The OP's expressed humanistic ideas in this thread, in comparison to the ridiculously misanthropic stuff he's posted at other times...

[Ardent15]

11. I appear misanthropic because humans have let our worst characteristics to take over...

And if you really believe that human beings are naturally bad, then I guess you can rationalize and justify anything.

[William Z. Foster]

23. right

Class permeates everything doesn't it?

Your antagonist calls it "misanthropic" when you attack the behavior of the ruling class, but silly and wrong when you defend the working class. That betrays something about the other poster - they see the people in the ruling class as more human - more valuable and important - than the people in the working class. That is consistent with the political ideas expressed by them elsewhere.

[Ardent15]

28. Yep-it's part of the mentality that I was attacking...

..in my OP

[HCE SuiGeneris]

19. Our envelope of culture differentiates us from the other herds, to an extent.

My take from the OP is that he is proposing that we are able to nurture a culture that leans towards the ideals/behaviors espoused by his sentiments. Materialism and Capitalism do not foster a healthy environment conducive to attaining the ideals that were touched upon.

I think there is merit in what he says.

Thanks for stating your viewpoint and your frame of reference.

[William Z. Foster]

22. silliness

That which we call "good" is that which promotes survival, not just for each of us as individuals but for the group. Clearly, humans are a cooperative species, and clearly humans will sacrifice themselves for the group. That seems to me to be no more controversial than saying that humans use language, or have two feet.

You cannot describe or define us, nor explain history in the absence of this basic understanding.

[G_j]

36. it only makes sense

that you would defend your type.

[Mika]

2. Too bad you can't go to Cuba (assuming that you are American).

You would love it there. Seriously.


:hi:

---

[CBGLuthier]

3. You are wrong about human nature.

Sorry, but its true, people are bastards to the core.

[arbusto_baboso]

10. Actually, they're bastard-covered bastards with bastard filling.

Occasionally, though, we'll do the right thing.

[William Z. Foster]

26. depends

If the only people we ever encountered were the managers, owners, bosses, landlords and investors, one would think that people are bastards to the core, and that this is "human nature." Since these people are the "winners," and since the more ruthless they are the more likely they are to win, we can come to see this as the best of "human nature." Plus, they get to control the discussion and set the rules for the rest of us.

It is people who are from the class of managers, owners, bosses, landlords and investors who are the ones always saying that "people are bastards to the core." They judge by themselves and by the company they keep, and also this reflects the way they look at their tenants, their employees, and their marks and victims. They have to see their victims that way to justify their own behavior toward other people.

[Greyhound]

5. I think it is the nature of a small number (5%?) of people to be destructive,

and for a larger minority (20%?) to be as you describe.

The remainder just want someone to tell them what to do.

[Ardent15]

7. And that 5% has the power

Because they want it.

[Greyhound]

35. They made and own the game, and they change the rules to suit themselves

whenever they feel too many have figured it out.

Do you remember that Rove(?) quote about creating and then recreating reality? I'm afraid he told us the truth.

[William Z. Foster]

29. 12%

I saw an excellent study by Pew Research once that made a persuasive case that it is about 12% of the population primarily motivated by greed and gaining power over others.

Unfortunately, we lavishly reward that 12%, they are the "winners," and they control everything including the discussion everywhere. They punish all of the people and the behavior that is not self-serving. controlling and domineering. They loom large, while the rest of the population may as well be extras in the background of the movie - "Predators Rule the World.... so shut up or else." Their disproportionate representation - and this holds true for DU, where a large number of people are from the upper 10% income bracket and are landlords, owners, bosses, investors and managers - can lead us to think that their behavior and attitudes are "human nature" when that is actually not at all true. Were it not for the fact that the everyday common people periodically rise up and overthrow the tyrants and predators, the human race would not have survived. The "smart" people, the "winners" are driving the human race toward extinction right now. Many right here do not see this, or do not want the rest of us to see this, because they are themselves from that group of domineering and controlling people.

There are just as many apologists for and promoters of colonialism, imperialism and Capitalism here among progressives and liberals as you will find among conservatives, and the liberal and progressive apologists for the system are much better at it, much more clever then, say, someone like Palin, and so they can do far more damage.

[Greyhound]

34. Interesting.

I think you might also find this interesting.

This is http://www.ponerology.com/psychopaths_1.html">an introduction to the theory of Ponerology. In essence Doctor Łobaczewski has developed this to explain how we got here. I also liked http://www.enotes.com/chalice-blade-salem/chalice-blade">The Chalice and the Blade Our History, Our Future By Riane Eisler, here is a brief synopsis.

These theories explain, IMO, most of what is wrong with the world, and jibes qith what seems to me to be your assessment as well.

[William Z. Foster]

37. thanks Greyhound

I do think that we are paying far too little attention to misogyny, and that misogyny and racism are closely associated with the mentality of the colonizers, imperialists and bosses.

[Dr Morbius]

6. I believe humans are as much devils as angels, and relying upon...

"human nature" to make things better won't work. At the same time, seeing human nature as evil only sees half the story.

Humans are evil creatures. Humans are noble creatures. Society should bring out our best characteristics and discourage our worst. Unregulated capitalism does the opposite: restrict our nobler selves and encourage selfishness and greed.

[Ardent15]

9. In order for capitalism to survive, it must expand

Problem is, resources are depleted the more it expands, so it's a self-destroying system.

[Chulanowa]

12. You're partially right

"The best-functioning societies in human history were certain tribal, communal societies."

This was - and is - true. The downside is, those societies were in intense, often violent competition against rival tribes and clans. Individually, a tribe in the Amazon or New Guinea is prosperous, healthy, and happy. However the relations between that tribe and its neighbors is largely one of warfare.

"So no, it's not "human nature" to be destructive and greedy, IMO."

Not in such words. However we are extremely self-absorbed creatures who have doubled the lifespan we evolved to fit. It's human nature to look out for yourself, first, your relatives second, and anyone else only if it provides benefit to you or yours. We are short-sighted, behaving like most mammals - we gorge, rather than save.

Fact is we're pretty basic model animals. The only difference between us and your average pig is that one, nothing eats us, and two, we can talk and try to convince ourselves we're special.

[canetoad]

13. I think you need to watch

Dr. Phil some more.

[demosincebirth]

14. Humans are, basically, selfish and self-centered. We have to be taught other wise, as children.

[Oregone]

15. I think humans are scum

Beautiful scum, that is.

I'm far more disappointed that the dolphins didn't evolve in the proper way to kill off humans. They are who truly let down the earth

[fishbulb703]

16. Humans are, by nature, apes. Apes attract mates through resources. EOM

[onestepforward]

17. I agree.

In general, we have lost our connection with each other and to nature. It has been replaced with electronic distractions like TV, the internet, games, etc. In my neighborhood, the only time that everyone comes outside to talk with each other is when the electricity goes out.

It is highly beneficial for the human species to help and support each other. We all need help at some point in our lives and no one is truly independent.

[Beam Me Up]

18. Yes, I've had this perception, too. We're constantly being told who and what we are.

It is the rare individual who confronts him/herself and looks at the conditioning and begins to ask the most important questions for him/herself. Who am I? What am I? What do *I* really think, feel, sense, perceive, believe to be true, etc. -- aware that even the language(s) we're given to make sense of all this, even to ourselves, is a part of our conditioning.

Imagine stripping away or transcending all that prevents us from coming into a direct and immediate contact with the awesome mystery of being that we are. Very few even suggest that such a thing is possible -- not because it is impossible but because revelation is liberation.

[TexasObserver]

20. Cooperation and Conflict are equal pillars of human nature.

We are born to cooperate and we are born to compete for resources. The power struggle begins with sibling rivalry and continues thereafter.

Capitalism has always existed, will always exist, in some form or another. It exists because those who control resources can barter for others to do their bidding. Demand exists for things, and that demand fuels capitalism. People who gather power tend to abuse it, and that never changes.

[William Z. Foster]

21. self-evident

You are correct, and I think it is self-evident.

We wouldn't be here were this not true. We can certainly see that the degree to which people deny this or suppress it is the degree to which we are being placed at great risk.

[GeorgeGist]

24. Certainly you jest ...

as nature has made obvious.

[alfredo]

25. Altruism is what holds our society together. A mother wouldn't give up so

much to ensure the survival of her child if humans weren't altruistic. There would be no heroes who have risked their lives for others. There wouldn't be those who give up high paying jobs to be of service to others.

Libertarians do not believe in altruism.

[immune]

27. Maybe that should read tribal, communal societies

that were culturally Matriarchal. A little more nuturing and a little less warlike? Could it be that unbridled testosterone may turn out to be one of the major stumbling blocks to peace? And sometimes it seems like many of today's wimmins have more testosterone than their counterparts.

[Starry Messenger]

30. Excellent rant Ardent15

:thumbsup:

[Cerridwen]

31. I have a word for you. That word is -compete-.

I've always been assured that if you want to learn about a culture, you should learn its language and idioms. If you want to learn about "our" past, study the history of our words.

I found the etymology of the word compete:

compete
1610s, from M.Fr. compéter "be in rivalry with" (14c.), or directly from L.L. competere "strive in common," in classical Latin "to come together, agree, to be qualified," later, "strive together," from com- "together" (see com-) + petere "to strive, seek, fall upon, rush at, attack" (see petition). Rare 17c., and regarded early 19c. as a Scottish or Amer.Eng. word. Market sense is from 1840s (perhaps a back formation from competition); athletics sense attested by 1857. Related: Competed; competing.

com-
prefix usually meaning "with, together," from L. com, archaic form of classical L. cum "together, together with, in combination," from PIE *kom- "beside, near, by, with" (cf. O.E. ge-, Ger. ge-). The prefix in Latin sometimes was used as an intensive. Before vowels and aspirates, reduced to co-; before -g-, assimilated to cog- or con-; before -l-, assimilated to col-; before -r-, assimilated to cor-; before -c-, -d-, -j-, -n-, -q-, -s-, -t-, -v- assimilated to con-.

petition (n.)
early 14c., "a supplication or prayer, especially to a deity," from O.Fr. peticiun (12c.), from L. petitionem (nom. petitio) "a request, solicitation," noun of action from petere "to require, seek, go forward," also "to rush at, attack," ult. from PIE base *pet-/*pte- "to rush, to fly" (cf. Skt. patram "wing, feather, leaf," patara- "flying, fleeting;" Hittite pittar "wing;" Gk. piptein "to fall," potamos "rushing water," pteryx "wing;" O.E. feðer "feather;" L. penna "feather, wing;" O.C.S. pero "feather;" O.Welsh eterin "bird"). Meaning "formal written request to a superior (earthly)" is attested from early 15c. The verb is c.1600, from the noun.

Okay, I got tired of trying to recreate the formatting from the original source, but I bolded the parts I wanted to emphasize.

Notice anything?

The early form of compete and competition, look very little like the definitions and uses in today's English.

They were once words describing coming together; working together; achieving together; requesting together.

It would only be around 14c that -compete- would be used in the way in which we know it today.

What changed? The meaning of the word, obviously. How did it change? What was the cause, the use that created such a 180 of the meaning?

This is just one word. So many of the words and the meanings attributed them today looked very different at their beginning and during "Western Civilization's" beginning. It's just one word. Interesting that the word has to do with coming together for a common goal.

Today it is a word used to justify heinous business practices, aggressive and otherwise unacceptable behaviors, and is valued as a human "trait" benefiting survival and creating success. And it has nothing to do with its original meaning.

What other human "traits" have been adopted and elevated to the most "admirable" of human qualities and then are attributed to "nature?" How many human "traits" have been used and their "biological origins" traced to justify the most horrific of acts?

Cui bono



eta: Oh yeah. And I added the K and the R.

[frustrated_lefty]

32. I resolutely disagree.

Since we're giving voice to our personal rants on human nature, here's mine.

I think all small things in this world, children included, are born with a starving nature to do nothing but insure their own well being.

As the child grows, one of the most significant metamorphoses which occurs is in their perception of "self" and "other." Brother, sister, mother, father, morph into an extension of self, people you protect possibly even more than you protect yourself. Friends may be included within this Venn diagram of self. You have read of soldiers throwing themselves upon a grenade to protect their platoon, another extension of "self." It almost sounds conceited, but at some level there is a realization that if "this person" dies, my sense of "self" loses all meaning.

Applauding the tribal wisdom of protecting the tribe makes sense, but falls short of what I hope is an evolutionary process. As the loss of a fellow tribe member weakens me, so does the loss of a foreign tribe member. The sea-life we depend upon is yours and his and hers and mine. We cannot afford to restrict our thinking to the tribal.

What confounds this is that corporate scoundrels are willing to pursue profit at the cost of all of us and their offspring.

Our evolution as civilized beings depends on our ability to expand our notion of "my people," and halt the "other" in its tracks, from killing our children.

[SoCalDem]

33. Humans (and all life) has a survival mechanism, built right in

The qualities you listed are generally reserved for kin. the more "evolved" a society is, the more likely they are to expand their generosity, BUT any misfortune usually takes them right back to "kin-first", and to hell with everyone else.

It's not good or bad..it just is.