Placing the Blame as Students Are Buried in Debt

[The Straight Story]

Placing the Blame as Students Are Buried in Debt


Like many middle-class families, Cortney Munna and her mother began the college selection process with a grim determination. They would do whatever they could to get Cortney into the best possible college, and they maintained a blind faith that the investment would be worth it.

Today, however, Ms. Munna, a 26-year-old graduate of New York University, has nearly $100,000 in student loan debt from her four years in college, and affording the full monthly payments would be a struggle. For much of the time since her 2005 graduation, she’s been enrolled in night school, which allows her to defer loan payments.

This is not a long-term solution, because the interest on the loans continues to pile up. So in an eerie echo of the mortgage crisis, tens of thousands of people like Ms. Munna are facing a reckoning. They and their families made borrowing decisions based more on emotion than reason, much as subprime borrowers assumed the value of their houses would always go up.

Meanwhile, universities like N.Y.U. enrolled students without asking many questions about whether they could afford a $50,000 annual tuition bill. Then the colleges introduced the students to lenders who underwrote big loans without any idea of what the students might earn someday — just like the mortgage lenders who didn’t ask borrowers to verify their incomes.
....

She recently received a raise and now makes $22 an hour working for a photographer. It’s the highest salary she’s earned since graduating with an interdisciplinary degree in religious and women’s studies.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/29/your-money/student-loans/29money.html

$100,000 for a degree in religious/women's studies?

[jdlh8894]

1. Is this the same lady

who had a full ride to another college but just HAD to go to NYU?

[msongs]

2. people choose to take out expensive loans and act surprised they have be paid back. hmmm nt

[jdlh8894]

4. Especially when they get the loan

w/o collateral.How do you repossess a degree?

[Raspberry]

3. A degree in Religious & Women's Studies?

Sorry, that's where my empathy for her ends. If she had majored in engineering or accounting or something she'd have been able to take her pick of offers. What did she expect? Academia is about the only place where she could use that combination, and without a grad degree, that's a pretty useless field of study.

Fair or not, that's the reality.

[izquierdista]

11. Hold it right there....

People with "useful" majors are having difficulty finding a job too. And there are no "useless" fields of study if from them you have learned to conjecture, reason, research, write, argue, calculate and analyze -- you know, gotten an education.

[Raspberry]

13. I have no problem with

someone who has "gotten an education," unless they expect that education to land them a job. All the wonderful skills you enumerated in your post are valuable indeed, except that plenty of people have them. People with degrees that employers are looking for. Especially in this job market, you have to have what people are willing to pay for--and not very many employers are looking for religious and women's studies majors.

[izquierdista]

18. Employers are looking for tools, not people

Employers too often make the mistake of hiring for a specific set of skills and not finding out whether the prospect actually got an education. I'd much rather hire someone who is educated and can learn than someone who managed to learn a few tricks by rote after much, much repetition. In that latter category I would put Palin and McCain, both people who squeaked out a degree, but have never evidenced being able to think.

[Raspberry]

22. So--

if you were hiring an engineer, would you be willing to start from scratch and spend many years teaching them EVERYTHING, on the basis of having a degree in a useless field--because, let's face it--haven't many of those people also just learned "a few tricks by rote?" Or, would you look for a person who was educated in a field of engineering and appeared to be able to grow and adapt within a job, while at the same time providing you with a little return on your investment?

[izquierdista]

26. There are far more categories than necessary

And given the number of assignment changes in a career, the employee often finds himself far, far from the curricula he studied in school.
There is one employer that is willing to take people with aptitude and teach them everything -- the military. Translators go from no knowledge of a foreign language to a translator in that language in 9 months.

[lumberjack_jeff]

25. Yes. That is what employees are.

You sell your hours doing the employers tasks. The benefit of an education is when you become a more effective tool.

[Raineyb]

94. No people are not tools (unless you area referring to an asshole) otherwise

they are people. Hammers, computers,screwdrivers and the like are tools.

Perhaps you should learn the difference.

[lumberjack_jeff]

100. Wake up.

As a piece of the capitalist system, you are a tool in someone's quest for profit.

You need to separate what you are from what you do. Many have bought into the idea that our passions, interests and hobbies must earn us a paycheck. Once you internalize the idea that your hours are tools that you've sold to someone who intends to resell it for a profit, you can think rationally about your own search for fulfillment.

[NashVegas]

106. +10

[Raineyb]

119. Take your own rather useless advice.

I am not a tool. I am not a computer, I'm not a screwdriver. I am a fucking person. I LEASE my time to my employer for which I exchange money. They do not OWN me and I am not a thing and I don't owe any employer anything other than to do my fucking job. Tools are owed and no one owns me.

So you can take the corporate line if you wish. I'm not buying it.

[lumberjack_jeff]

126. You don't lease it, you sell it.

That hour between 8:00 and 9:00 tuesday morning? You ain't never seeing it again. Ever.

Best to sell it for as much as possible.

[Raineyb]

132. I'm leasing my services.

There's not a damn thing that the company owns.

[NashVegas]

104. "Me, Too" Degrees.

Include specialized engineering.

[readmoreoften]

28. Yeah, god forbid someone knows about WOMEN. They might work at a shelter, or get an MSW,

or work for an LGBT organization. Got forbid someone knows about world religions--the last thing anyone needs to know about in international business is "what muslims believe". How could that be useful! :sarcasm:

[tammywammy]

32. The woman in the article isn't even doing that much, she's working for a photographer

Unfortunately working in the non-profit sector doesn't usually pay enough to demand taking out $100k in debt. If that's the area she was hoping to go into with her degree (the article doesn't mention her working on a MSW) then she should have really thought realistically about how much income she could expect in such a field before taking out these loans.

I'm not saying that the degrees aren't useful, but you have to look at how much you can expect to earn after graduating when taking out loans. She could have gone a much cheaper route, even doing two years at a community college and transferring to NYU.

[Matariki]

33. Bullshit. Because knowledge and scholarship is just a luxury for the rich?

What a sad nation we've become.

[William Z. Foster]

35. hear hear

It is stunning to read the things people are posting here.

Very sad, and troubling.

[mike_c]

47. +1

Many of the respondents in this thread are EMBRACING their own exploitation. It happens a lot here.

[FarCenter]

57. Knowledge and scholarship can be had for far less than $100,000

All the great books are available for free on line or for a modest price in paper on Amazon.

There is a huge wealth of information available on the internet -- wikipedia goes far beyond any previous encylopedia in the breadth and depth of content. For example, I don't believe the Encyclopedia Britannica had anything about blowout preventers.

There are also more and more courses available on line. The local library has many of the "The Teaching Company" college lecture DVDs available at no cost. And they are not that expensive to buy.

What is not available cheaply is 4 years of residency at a faux Gothic campus with impeccable gardens, abundant dining, and a myriad of recreational facilities.

[happy_liberal]

92. "have never let my schooling interfere with my education" Mark Twain

nt

[Matariki]

113. Or we could operate like a civilized nation and subsidize higher education

realizing the value to society as whole, instead of the stupid 'everyone for themselves' attitude that's fucking everything up.

[krabigirl]

44. Nope, not true. I had an English degree and didn't find it hard to find jobs, even in a recession ro

You can teach yourself things that will help your degree as well.

[Hippo_Tron]

49. My engineering friends are mostly unemployed or working jobs they didn't need their degree for

Or they went to graduate school. There really isn't much of anything you can major in anymore that guarantees you a job.

[Missy Vixen]

58. "Take her pick of offers"?

Pardon me, but have you been hiding under a rock for the past two years? NOBODY is "taking their pick of offers" these days. Just finding a job, even with the "correct" majors, has become almost impossible.

Student loans are crippling the future of college graduates right now, in all majors.

[MadHound]

59. So only "useful" degrees are approved in this country?

First of all, all fields of knowledge are useful and needed. Second of all, not everybody can be accountants or engineers or such, each person has particular areas that they are better at, and enjoy more. Should we force a person to become that which they're not suited for?

Yes, there are fields of study that generally require post-grad degrees, but frankly putting such degrees out of reach for people, making them so expensive to just get the undergrad degree is ludicrous.

Furthermore, as others have pointed out, people who are graduating with "work ready degrees" can't find work in their field. I've got degrees in elementary education, middle school education and history, and can't find a job.

Sneering at somebody because of the degree they received is gauche at best, hateful at worst.

[lumberjack_jeff]

88. No, people are welcome to choose a degree in any field of study they want.

But don't be surprised that you have to repay the cost.

If that degree is in esoterica, don't expect it to function as a financial investment - you'll have to pay for it working as a photographers assistant. ($22/hour? Where to I sign up?)

[Greyhound]

105. And that's what happened to American education. It's been transformed from the seeking of knowledge

to better understand our world and ourselves into mere vocational training so that you can be useful to your masters.
And so many here see nothing wrong with that.:wow:

[tishaLA]

112. I've been bitching about that for years now.

I'm in academia and I'm amazed at the number of students--to say nothing of parents--who want college to be a vocational school. Why bother with a 4 year degree if that's the case? I'd like to see undergrad business degrees eliminated, but it's never going to happen because they are such a cash cow. Whatever skill a student might learn in undergrad business courses is not as valuable as a skill they could learn in a philosophy, English, history, biology, or math classroom.

[Greyhound]

115. Well there you go, the institutes themselves are nothing more than profit centers any longer.

In my experience, I only had two professors that ever emphasized learning, a Jesuit that taught me chemistry/philosophy and an English teacher that was fired for daring to fail students that didn't even try.

So it seems higher learning has been replaced by diploma mills, being paid out of a corporate welfare program, to produce technocrats ignorant of everything beyond the purview of the lever they've been trained to pull. Is that about it?

G.W. Bush holds a Masters from Harvard.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

5. 2X Duplicate

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8440121&mesg_id=8440121

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8443611&mesg_id=8443611

[The Straight Story]

7. Whew, I though you meant I posted it already

I am not that old yet :)

[jdlh8894]

12. CRS setting in Straight? LOL

[ProgressiveProfessor]

6. It was her choice, specifically a boutique major with no commercial value

I fully believe that students should be able to take such classes and graduate with degrees in same, but only if they sign a no whining pledge. Its their choice and choice has consequences. If you get a degree in a field with no market value, that is your choice but please do not complain about your lack of employment opportunities and the debt you took on afterward.

[jp11]

8. Agreed but even if you do get a commerically viable degree it isn't a guarantee to a job everyone

takes their chances that spending X thousands of dollars will pay off in x years instead of doing something else. Just as buying a house and getting it financed doesn't guarantee that the house is going to go up in value.

Stories like this just beg the question what these people were thinking spending so much money when they didn't have a practical idea of what/how they were going to benefit, 'blind faith' a concept that always works out well.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

30. You are right about no guarantees, but a technical degree has a lot better ROI

than the one in the article.

[readmoreoften]

27. Really "professor"? What kind of fantastic employment do you prepare people for?

A boutique major with no value--like finance? human resources? marketing? And by the way--what the fuck is a "boutique major"? I think what you're talking about is called "the humanities."

Something tells me that you are neither a progressive, nor a professor. Maybe next you can attack students of ethnic studies.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

34. If you actually read what I posted, you would realize that I support classes and degrees

in many fields, but those who choose a field without employment prospects after graduation have no business whining about lack of employment or their debt. Choices have consequences and she has no one to blame but herself.

I teach in the technical area and all of this semester graduates that I advise have jobs waiting for them.

[Greyhound]

107. What an appropriate response from a "professor".

see #105

[ProgressiveProfessor]

131. In context it is

review the entire thread, including 34 and 81

[madinmaryland]

9. What is really sad, is that students cannot pursue degrees in more

esoteric subjects anymore, unless they are extremely wealthy. To me that really reflects the end of enlightenment. A society that does not value the arts is a society in decline.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

46. I agree with you...then again, we as a society have much less time for intellectual pursuits

In my parents generation, the man worked and the woman stayed home, even if she had a college degree. None of my daughters would consider not working. It takes two salaries to manage what used to be easily done on one by their grandparents. This drive for educational ROI can be attributed (in part) to those kind of economics.

[Amaya]

my thoughts exactly

nt

[Hippo_Tron]

61. I don't think that's really true

If you can afford to get a degree in a liberal arts field, you can afford to pursue one in an esoteric subject. Supposedly "useful" majors don't get you a job anymore with few exceptions like maybe accounting or engineering (although as I said on another post I know quite a few unemployed engineers). The bottom line is that you just can't expect your undergrad (or even graduate these days) degree to land you a job and you especially can't expect it to land you one in the field that you majored in.

A few years ago I went to an alumni panel for students interested in getting a job in politics. One of the speakers (a press secretary for a congressman) told us that they don't give two shits about our political science degree because everybody has one. He had majored in Classics and was at no disadvantage because of it.

[lumberjack_jeff]

135. Anymore?

College enrollment as a percentage of the population has been climbing steadily. Far more people seek "esoteric" degree programs than any time in US history. Humanities education is a growth industry, and the fact that people are willing to borrow $100k to buy one suggests that the curve hasn't peaked.

[keep_it_real]

10. I don't feel sorry for $100,000 college debt - it's their choice

Ya gotta pay to play. Don't wanna pay don't play.

[SOS]

14. Get a trade

American colleges have become overpriced commercial enterprises.

[FarCenter]

15. "interdisciplinary degree in religious and women’s studies" is intellectual conspicuous consumption

Not an investment that will have a economic return in the future.

[jdlh8894]

16. " intellectual conspicuous consumption"

Damn ,I like that phrase! Well done!!

[FarCenter]

20. It is consumption intended for the purpose of status signaling

It says that the degree holder is:
a) accomplished enough to get into the college or univisity and
b) from a wealthy enough family to not have to pursue some practical education.

However, when it is held by someone of the wrong socioeconmic class, who also had to borrow heavily to get it, then b) above does not apply, and it loses most of its effectiveness.

[intheflow]

41. Yes, because the only value of education is to turn a buck.

:eyes:

[Raineyb]

17. I find reading the responses to this article funny in light of the moaning about the

lack of empathy of today's college students. Hmmm. You'd think that the lack of empathy came out of nowhere.

[lumberjack_jeff]

24. No, it reinforces those articles

She was entitled to the best education money could buy, but she appears to have glossed over the "money" part.

[William Z. Foster]

40. good

We ought to gloss over the "money part," especially if it has anything to do with the ideas you are expressing here.

The "best education money could buy?" And "entitled?"

Education is a commodity now? People need to be entitled to an education? And money is the way they become entitled?

You are not talking about education, you are talking about something else altogether. You are talking about some sort of social mechanism for the creation and preservation of an aristocracy. Your sentiments contradict the concept and purpose of public education, which makes your commodity worthless by any serious measurement. Worthless to society, that is - perhaps very valuable for you personally.

I will take a person who glosses over the "money part" any day over a person who so glibly glosses over the "human being" and "social conscience" parts.

[Raineyb]

51. +1 n/t

[SOS]

101. Education has been commodified in the US

Like everything else in this country.
The education is subordinated to million dollar president salaries. billion dollar endowments and indentured servitude to Citibank.

The European system is a superior model.
Very difficult to get in to.
Only the top students gain admission.
Once admitted, the tuition is paid by the state.

No banks, no loan officers, no Sallie Mae, no usurious banks, no lifetime of crippling debt.

The European state views education as building the future of their nation.
The American system just wants to take 30 grand off the student, by whatever means available.

[Raineyb]

48. No you're showing EXACTLY why college students today have so little empathy.

They're not seeing examples of it to follow. You're quite the example.

[lumberjack_jeff]

87. I have lots of empathy for those who deserve it.

Purchasing a $100k status item without a plan for coming up with the money isn't empathy-worthy.

In fact, I have more empathy for those who really would have liked a degree in womens studies but realized they couldn't afford it. The subject of the OP couldn't afford it either, but she didn't pay close enough attention in HS math class to realize it.

See, the sad thing about a guy like you is in 50 years you're gonna staht doin some thinkin on your own and you're gonna come up with the fact that there are two certaintees in life. One, don't do that. And Two, you dropped a hundred and fifty grand on a fuckin education you coulda got for a dollah fifty in late chahges at the public library" - Good Will Hunting

[Raineyb]

96. Like I said you are the embodiment of exactly why we can see so little empathy

in this country.

I'm not interested in your rationalizations as to why you consider this girl sneer worthy. I can think of a lot worse sins than buying into the meme that's sold in this country that a degree is the key to upward mobility and the more expensive the better. It's not like critical thinking is valued in this country. Clearly you didn't find it worthy of consideration.

[lumberjack_jeff]

98. The supply of empathy is undiminished. The demand for it is nearly infinite.

She's sneer-worthy because she expected someone else to finance her quest for "critical thinking".

The fact that she invested $100k in that search may be evidence of how much she was in need of it, but expecting people to be empathetic to her plight illustrates how much the real social need is logic, not empathy.

"Please! Ms Professor, teach me how to think!" :eyes:

The woman who is the subject of the OP isn't a victim of "the meme", she's a propogator of it.

[William Z. Foster]

103. so mean-spirited and ugly

What are you so upset about? You are spreading a very vicious libertarian theme here of individualism and "personal responsibility."

No matter how badly the person in the article screwed up, it does not justify your response.

[lumberjack_jeff]

117. The libertarian theme of "live within your means"?

Guilty as charged.

[William Z. Foster]

122. yes, absolutely

"Live within your means" is nothing but a distraction, and an attack on working class people, at a time when people's means are collapsing along with the public infrastructure. Of course. It surprises me that any Democrat could fail to see this.

"Live within your means" and "personal responsibility" and "making bad choices" are clever and innocuous-sounding little phrases carefully worked out by the right wing think tanks, and then field tested to see if they had the desired effect. The desired effect is to fan the flames of hatred and resentment, without being obviously objectionable. In this way, the think tanks have created a library of hateful, anti-social, anti-government, anti-public welfare code words and code phrases that advance the far right libertarian agenda. Those little code words and phrases are designed to stir people emotions, be it bigotry, resentment or anger, and that is why we see them used by people in hostile ways, and why people have such poorly supported arguments when they use them, and why they do not attempt to defend them but merely get more angry and hostile.

Whenever people repeat these right wing talking points here, it is always in the context of brief, rude, hostile and angry posts.

[lumberjack_jeff]

125. Right wing think tanks such as Ben Franklin?

Frugality isn't a liberal virtue?

Bullshit.

Brief, rude, hostile and angry enough for you?

[William Z. Foster]

127. oh, now it is "frugality"

You are retreating. You were not talking about frugality.

[lumberjack_jeff]

133. "frugality" = "living within your means"

In fact, it means living below your means.

I'm not retreating at all. The subject of the OP spent wastefully and stupidly. If you have $100k to spend on a lifestyle purchase, by all means, give NYU a call. If you don't, then you're going to have to choose an employable, affordable education or a lifetime of debt slavery.

People can make their own choices within the real world we all inhabit.

[Raineyb]

120. Delete

So not worth it.

I'll save my words for someone who doesn't come across as a complete asshole.

[Greyhound]

108. You don't even see the irony in your subject...

:rofl:

[lumberjack_jeff]

114. Because there is none.

Empathy is the capacity for imagining yourself in someone else's shoes. I can identify with those who suffer from a great many tragedies, but I can't imagine myself in the position where I'm surprised no one will give me a paycheck because of my degree in womens and religious studies, and having suddenly remembered the $100,000 price tag for the "best education available".

[Greyhound]

116. ..

:rofl:

[lumberjack_jeff]

118. Yeah. You said that. Not very empathetic of you. n/t

[readmoreoften]

29. I've got a solution!!! Let's get rid of ETHNIC STUDIES!!!1! It's a BOUTIQUE degree!!!1!!!

Everyone should go into "worthwhile fields" like lawyering or finance or criminal justice or homeland security. Or the sciences, where you can get funded if you work on science with weapons applications and starve if you don't (as a number of experimental physicists have explained.)

[intheflow]

42. ..

:rofl: Perfect response to the corporate tools invading this thread!

[Berry Cool]

77. It is no longer pragmatic to go into lawyering.

Law school puts students into crippling debt, and today they're no longer guaranteed a position straight out of law school that will help pay off that debt.

[Hippo_Tron]

79. Depends on the rank of the school you go to

If you have the GPA and LSAT scores to get into a top program you can still get a job. But if you can't get into one of the top ones, going to law school isn't a prudent investment unless you have a great financial aid package.

[JVS]

31. You mean you can't treat them like dogshit and expect them to have empathy?

[Brickbat]

19. I think the higher education bubble is the next overheated thing that will collapse.

These tuitions are untenable, their endowments are swollen and unused, and their degrees' relevance is dropping. I could just be talking about my own alma mater, of course ($13K/year my senior year in 1992-93, $45K a year now). But I do think it's across the board.

[Dappleganger]

21. Hedge Fund Sees `Big Short' in Education Stocks With Possible Law Changes

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8445798

This dovetails perfectly along with the OP's topic.

[lumberjack_jeff]

23. "They and their families made borrowing decisions based more on emotion than reason"

Exactly.

[intheflow]

39. OR:

People made borrowing decisions based on a culture that says you'll never get a good job without a college degree. When I worked in banking back in the day, you couldn't get beyond teller status without a degree, but it didn't matter what your degree was in. My three immediate banking supervisors (including one bank VP) had degrees in art history, microbiology and sports management.

[UndertheOcean]

36. So , what prevented her from studying in-state ? in a reasonable public University ?

some people are loonies.

[tammywammy]

38. Or doing two years at a community college and transferring to NYU?

:shrug:

[JPZenger]

74. Its NYU's fault

In the article, she blames NYU for not convincing her to transfer to a cheaper college.

Its society's fault.

[jp11]

43. Unquestioning blind faith that a good school = success no matter what.

"How could her mother have let her run up that debt, and why didn’t she try to make her daughter transfer to, say, the best school in the much cheaper state university system in New York? “All I could see was college, and a good college and how proud I was of her,” Cathryn said. “All we needed to do was get this education and get the good job. This is the thing that eats away at me, the naïveté on my part.”

But Cortney resists the idea that this is a tale of bad parenting. “To me, it would be an uncharitable reading,” she said. “My mother has tried her best, and I don’t blame her for anything in this.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/29/your-money/student-loans/29money.html

[Raineyb]

52. IOW: Why are the proles trying to get the elite education we told them

was a ticket to social mobility? Don't they know it's beyond them?

[FarCenter]

56. You can become emperor by being born into the royal family or by becoming a victorious general

In the latter case, you kill the existing royal family and start your own.

But pretending to be part of the royal family, when you are not, will only get you killed.

Doesn't anybody read history anymore?

[Hippo_Tron]

62. Nope, majoring in history won't get you a job

[FarCenter]

64. I said "read", not "major in". See reply 57 above.

[Hippo_Tron]

65. I was being snakry

[FarCenter]

70. Snakry is OK

[Raineyb]

67. Who's talking about being emperor? When the society says one must have a degree to get ahead

and the more prestigious the school the better is it really a surprise that you get people doing what this young woman did? This is the stuff people are doing to be part of the middle class. And it's a travesty. And we have people talking about how stupid she is for it. Meanwhile a lot of employers would look down their nose at a degree from a state school and people are desperate to move up even if it's just a little bit and we have people berating them for it.

And the irony is that they're the same people decrying the lack of empathy in today's college students. It would be amusing if it weren't so pathetic.

[FarCenter]

69. She may not have had the social background or skills to network into financial services or media

NYU is supposedly a good value if your objective is to network your way into the financial services industry or media industry in Manhattan. Thus, the education is only part of the degree. Making it pay off requires the social skills to gain the entre into the job market in those industries.

NYU is supposedly not a very good value for a general liberal arts education. It is high cost, and you can probably do better at other schools.

Of course NYU also has a number of technical and professional schools within it.

It's not that she's stupid. But it is bad judgement to become indebted to the tune of about 2 to 3 times the starting salary that you can make with the degree.

[Raineyb]

72. Therein lies the rub. They don't tell the proles that do they?

Oh go to the right school AND know the right people (no doubt by joining the "right" fraternity/sorority) to get people who will vouch for you to let others know you're worthy of a job. (Because God forbid we actually care about what people know rather than who they know)

I nearly fell into that trap myself. Fortunately, I left before I was totally crippled by debt. I've paid off the debt I did rack up and have since gone back to school.

I can pay for CUNY out of my pocket. I won't be considered for any highfalutin jobs no doubt because I don't have the "right" degree but at least I won't be in hock for what amounts to a down payment on a house in this city.

[Jkid]

91. Peer and media culture are the blame.

Students are compelled to go 4 year colleges because they are influenced by culture and by the media that people who go to community colleges are those who can't afford to attend a full 4 year university or simply academic losers. Even people who had good grades in high school are compelled to attend these colleges for that and various reasons.

[intheflow]

37. I have over $100K for my M.Div.

Which I'm in default on since I haven't made more than $9/hr. since graduating and can barely keep up with my rent, utilities and food, let alone pay down crippling debt.

[shireen]

45. $100,000 is insane

I want to see an itemized bill from the university explaining every charge. Unreal.

Her degree is valuable. If there were no students specializing in religious and women’s studies, how will that knowledge get passed to future generations? Universities have a responsibility not only to teach, but to nurture future careers in these fields.

I hope she finds a job, someday, that will allow her to use what she's learned.

[mike_c]

50. we have a young woman staying with us who earned her biology degree...

...from a private college in NYC-- I don't recall which, off hand, maybe Columbia?-- but her debt is just a bit more than $100K, for a four year degree that is essentially useless to her because good jobs in science don't go to people with undergrad degrees, generally. This whole system has become an utter travesty. When 23 year old women enter the job market-- looking for their first employment EVER-- already six figures in debt they are little more than wage slaves indentured for life. We've managed to take one of the greatest and most empowering blessings imaginable-- higher education and intellectual development-- and destroyed it in the name of corporate greed. Just like the Gulf of Mexico.

[jp11]

53. You hit it on the head, too many students rack up huge debt and then are forced to take pathetic

wage jobs because they need to payback all that 'investment'. What is really ridiculous is so many fields need to train you regardless of a degree or not, but it is sometimes used as another way to limit the number of applicants that need to be screened along with their gpa. Many of the older people college grads work under don't have degrees, yet someone at some point says well now they need them and like that they won't hire people without them.

[The Straight Story]

55. I have a suspicion about it

In the computer field now I see more than ever people wanting you to have at least a 4 year degree for most jobs. 10+ years experience and I am finding it hard to find a job, yet I used to make good money in the field.

Perhaps some of the people who have come into the field over the years have degrees and you need to be part of their 'club' or they don't want to see someone get a good job unless they had to go through the same thing they did.

"Gosh, why should I hire this guy making 70k/year when I went to college and he didn't?" and they think for 4 years in a textbook they know more than someone who has been in the field working for years.

I think an education is a good thing - I just don't think you always have to spend a fortune and be in a classroom for years to get one.

[FarCenter]

60. As any field matures, qualifications shift from ability to credentials

A classic example would be law, where in the early 1800s one became a lawyer by working for a lawyer. Later, law degrees and bar exams became the necessary credentials.

[Raineyb]

73. I think you're right there.

My former job which I had for nearly 10 years didn't require a degree when I was hired. About 5 years in suddenly they only wanted people with degrees for the position and people who had temped with us earlier who already knew the damn job weren't even considered for our department because they didn't have a degree. The job hadn't changed but what the employer required did. A cynical person would suspect it was a way to push out people of the wrong color since the number of people in certain ethnic groups dropped dramatically when the education requirements changed. But that's really fodder for another post.

[depakid]

75. Bring it, Mike.

Not exactly a prescription that a successful nation would be apt to follow.

[shireen]

99. i really hope things work out for her -- she deserves better

We've managed to take one of the greatest and most empowering blessings imaginable-- higher education and intellectual development-- and destroyed it in the name of corporate greed.

You're said it so clearly and succinctly! Totally 100% true!!!


it's not easy but there are jobs out there for bachelors/science degrees. Research/Technical assistants jobs mostly. Depending on her field of study, there are opportunities is some parts of the country more than others. She'll have to do the research to find out what kinds of places are hiring in her field. I'm sure I'm stating the obvious, she's probably doing all that already. My heart goes out to here, and I hope she finds a job she enjoys. Soon.

Another thing .... while she's job-hunting, if she has some spare time, she should try to volunteer as a field biologist assistant. For instance, getting some field biology experience at a nearby wildlife refuge, working with the staff biologist to do wildlife surveys, tagging, collect water samples, etc.. I did some of that as a volunteer (as a hobby, not for professional reasons) for several years before i got sick, and it was the most wonderful rewarding thing I've ever done in my life. In her case, it would also give her valuable experience and look good on her resume.

BTW, i got a bachelors degree in astronomy. LOL! Getting a job in that field is like looking for a needle in a haystack. But my work experience in college made my resume stand out, so I got lucky and have been employed in the field for the past 22 years. Of course, if i were laid off, i'd be in big big trouble!

[ProgressiveProfessor]

78. $20K a year for tuition/books/living expenses is fairly reasonable

Few get done in 4 years these days

[Hippo_Tron]

84. That's news to me, I just graduated and the vast majority of my class finished in 4 years

Most of the people I know that take 5 went on medical leave for a semester.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

85. Class sequencing and availability tend to drive 5 years

so does the desire not to be carrying 18 units/term for some

[shireen]

95. wow!

Is it that bad?! I graduated from a state university with a bachelor's degree over 22 years ago, taking 5 years to do it. I don't remember the exact cost, but not even out-of-state tuition was that high. For the last three years, I was able to pay most of my tuition on my own because i had a 20hr/week job and it qualified me for instate tuition.

This is really awful ... those poor kids. :(
I'd really like to see how all that tuition money is being spent by those universities!

[ProgressiveProfessor]

130. It has gotten scary bad in many places

At one point I several daughters in college at the same time. When you add basic living costs on top of academic costs, health insurance, a car where appropriate, its quite a bill. Between scholarships and savings they did not have to take out loans. Pretty well wiped us out, but the next generation got a start without bills. That was important to us.

[boppers]

83. "how will that knowledge get passed to future generations"?

We have this cool invention now. They're called books. Knowledge can be "written down", and used hundreds of years later! Totally mind boggling, yes?

[shireen]

93. if that's the case

let's get rid of schools and universities ... everyone can start learning from books.

:eyes:

[boppers]

137. Wikipedia has vastly magnified human knowledge.

Some folks need a lecture, and lesson plans, others just need books.

I see no reason to stop books, or websites, for that reason. If anything, a "professional" education is a warning flag that somebody was too stupid, clueless, or un-motivated, to learn it for free.

[Raineyb]

97. Merely reading from a book does not pass down knowledge. And who is going to write the

updated books if people don't go into the field because it's not "practical"

[boppers]

138. Are you arguing against books?

Who is writing the books about abiogenesis, and do we care about that loss?

[historian]

54. thats what you get for not thinking

My daughter also took out a huge loan to go to Northwestern U for a degree in law. She now has a very high paying job and it paying off the loan. The question is why on earth spend 100.000 for Religious Studies???

[Taitertots]

63. Blaming students is blaming the victims of systemic collapse

You shouldn't expect to make a fortune with a degree like that, but systemic failures are the reason she can't pay back the loan.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

80. Choice has consequences and this student made bad choices

That is not "blaming students". How is it a systemic failure that she chose both an expensive school and an unmarketable degree?

One of my daughters loved the Spanish language and culture. She was speaking it fluently in high school due to our living abroad. Instead of majoring in it, she took it as a minor. It added a semester to her undergraduate time, but we all considered it a good investment. She is doing quite well with her tech degrees, but remains bilingual. Its also been a career boost for her.

[Taitertots]

90. They didn't choose to be born into the second great depression

The only reason it is "unmarketable" today is because of the systemic collapse. They shouldn't expect a fortune, but their inability to earn enough to pay off their student loans is the result of systemic failures.

Your daughter gave up following her dreams. Many people would rather do what they love than sell out for money.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

129. Actually she loves what she is doing

Both on the job and off. She was fortunate in that regards.

[William Z. Foster]

102. choice is a right wing theme

"Choice has consequences and this student made bad choices" is a right wing theme, pounded into us since the days of Reagan. It is a way to blame the victims, attack working class and poor people, and defend the wealthy few. No Democrat should be using it, ever.

The details of the person in this particular story are not what is important.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

128. Actually choice is a liberal and progressive theme

Providing People:
- Choices in their lives
- Increasing the choices available
- The ability to make decisions about basic parts of their lives
Are all liberal/progressive values.

Perhaps your problem is accountability. The Tea Baggers are supporting BP, the big banks, and others ducking responsibility for their actions. Most liberal and progressives are insisting that they be held accountable. So holding people responsible for their choices is now a right wing thing.

Care to try again?

[William Z. Foster]

136. increasing choices, yes

Public programs and policies that increase the oppoerunities available for all are a good thing, yes.

That is the opposite of the "personal choice" propaganda.

No need for the "perhaps your problem is..." and the "care to try again."

[ProgressiveProfessor]

139. So is taking responsibility

My word choice was called for, at least as called for as accusations of right wing memes.

[lumberjack_jeff]

134. Is there nothing that isn't?

Choice? Frugality? Responsibility? All dirty words?

Autonomy is an illusion if our choices are without consequence.

"Blaming" the victim of a self-inflicted wound is both unavoidable and appropriate.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

140. There is a fair amount of subtely here that many are overlooking

This is not a binary situation, and some of those concerned about higher education being a "can't win game" have some valid points.

In this specific case, the student has a fine liberal arts education. Broad with an emphasis on critical thinking and writing. There is nothing inherently flawed with that. The rub is that she went into tremendous debt to get it and there was little or no foreseeable way she could pay that back. It was a conscious choice she made, and choices have consequences.

However, there are those who while pursuing a liberal arts also received a teaching credential or in some cases a nursing degree. Those were jobs forecast to be in demand when they started down that route so their choice and foresight was certainly valid at the time. Those are the ones I have the concern for.

Too many people are way way way too into binary situations...

[NashVegas]

109. The Education Industry Is No Different From the Housing Industry

Your profs might enjoy the ivory tower, but the board knows better. The education bubble won't burst for years, yet, but when college educated plebes find they can't afford homes and families, the next generation on down is gonna be a killer.

[Clintonista2]

66. I am a student who is beyond "buried" in debt

Even with scholarships and a 30 hour/wk job, its very difficult to make the interest payments. Part of the problem is that financial aid is based upon your parents income. While in theory this makes sense, in reality it can be quite unfair. I know it's anecdotal, but nearly all of my friends qualify for some type of financial aid, even though they live with their parents while going to school and their parents pay for their tuition/books. They end up spending the financial aid on trips to Cuba, and clothes. I, on the other hand, don't qualify for any financial aid because my parents make over a certain threshold of money. However, my parents refuse to pay for my books or tuition, and only help me with living expenses when I am in dire need of help.

Universal post-secondary eduction will lead to a better educated population, and a much more productive one.

[bvar22]

68. DLC Mission Accomplished!

There is NO such thing as "Free Trade".
There is NO such thing as "Free Markets".
There is NO Giant "Invisible Hand".
The RICH made that shit up and used their puppet politicians in BOTH parties to sell that LIE to a gullible America.

Anytime you hear a supposed "Democrat" hype "Free Trade" or "Free Markets", KNOW that that politician is NOT working for YOU.

[intheflow]

71. +1000

The parties are far more closely aligned than most people recognize, united and motivated by corporate donations. Disgusting state of the union!

[boppers]

76. A $100,000 party with nothing to show for it?

Maybe she should go back to school and learn something about finance and paying off your debts to others?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

81. Disagree

She most likely has a fine liberal arts education. Broad with an emphasis on critical thinking and writing. There is nothing inherently flawed with that. The rub is that she went into tremendous debt to get it and there was little or no foreseeable way she could pay that back. It was a conscious choice she made, and choices have consequences.

[boppers]

82. Point made.

She did get an education out of it, and I'd likely really enjoy having a conversation with her... my point probably could have been made with less snark (and more clarity), so I'll give it another shot:

Unfortunately, the way the US educational system is set up, there are very expensive ways of imparting information and teaching skills, that, post-graduation, are of little monetary value to balance against the accrued debt. Students go in with grandiose dreams, spend lots of money learning, and then ultimately that expense (for too often) turns out to be the equivalent of having a *very* costly (aristocratic?) hobby.

For example, my religious studies bookshelf is currently at over 100 titles, but many were purchased secondhand, and accrued over the course of many years, rather than being accompanied by costly tuition, facilities, and infrastructure. I consider it a hobby. My computer science bookshelf is slightly larger (including a few I wrote and edited), but it's paid enough, as an ongoing career, to sustain my hobbies.

Understanding this balance, between socially valued knowledge, and knowledge of lesser social value (or use "monetary" for "social", I'm using them interchangeably) seems to be lacking.

[bvar22]

86. A paradox?

How does one acquire the knowledge to understand "this balance, between socially valued knowledge, and knowledge of lesser social value"? By your own post, you are making this judgment in retrospect.

In the 60s and 70s, it was possible to attend a good State University and graduate debt free if one was willing to work part time.
I could be possible to do that again....IF we had a Political Party that represented the Working Class.
THAT is the real problem, NOT Stupid Students as YOU imply.

Your entire post can be reduced to,"If we just had smarter dumb people, this wouldn't be a problem!"

[lumberjack_jeff]

89. Exactly, precisely right.

We aren't "what we do". Our primary interest need not be the way we make a living, and the expectation that it should is the ultimate expression on a sense of entitlement.

[XemaSab]

110. I'm jumping in late

but I think she made some bad major choices.

A degree in English or humanities would leave the door open for future studies in her preferred fields, but they would also be more marketable in the here and now.

[Shadow Creature]

111. I think

That a lot of people who go to college aren't necessarily doing themselves any good.

Besides that, what are public colleges doing charging anything at all?

What are "private" universities with billions and billions of dollars in endowments not using that money to benefit students, instead charging tens of thousands for each year.

[TriMera]

121. Actually, I can empathize...

I am getting a BA in Humanities with concentrations in History, Anthropology and Women's Studies. I'm trying to get into graduate school to get a PhD in Women's History. I want to teach college. However, largely due to some of the attitudes being expressed in this thread, the Humanities may be dead by the time I receive my degrees. I know that I will be deeply in debt and will have to find a job to pay off my loans. But, needless to say, I didn't go into this for the money. I chose this field because I believe that someday we will teach kids the truth, based on historical research and facts. I want to be a part of that process. If that makes me "unrealistic" or "esoteric" then, so be it.

[jp11]

123. They won't be dead, the difference is you are planning your future as opposed to taking a course

with no thought to your future. A degree in the humanities, depending on what, may not be enough to get a job in that field, often you will have to go farther to a Masters or PHD.

Many aimless students go for degrees in the humanities because they can get away with reading and writing to gain a degree, as opposed to doing science/math that may be more challenging, I believe this makes those degrees less valuable when you have the manager at a mall outlet for example with a degree in English literature.

[burnsei sensei]

124. Another set of salvos in

this country's war on the young.