Is Phoenix REALLY #2 in the world for kidnappings?

[struggle4progress]

This claim is now circulating to justify 1070: them illegal mezkins and them's merry-ju-anna is made Phoenix #2 in the world for kidnappings

Where's the evidence for this? What's the source of statistics?

The FBI considers kidnapping a rare crime and doesn't track it, though they do keep have info on parental abductions. And I haven't found kidapping stats on the Phoenix police website

Educate me. I don't just want numbers waved in my face: I want to know exactly who collects the numbers

[elleng]

1. What about Rio?

[KamaAina]

2. It might or might not even be #2 in the country

in the hemisphere? Fuhgeddabodit. Mexico City. Bogota. Sao Paulo. Rio (as mentioned above). And so on.

[NNN0LHI]

3. I do know it is the number one destination for retired organized crime figures from my area

Soon as they get released from the joint they all head for Phoenix.

Must be a bunch of them fuckers down there by now.

Don

[The Magistrate]

4. If You Exclude Most Of The World Outside Arizona, Sir, Then, Perhaps, Yes....

More kidnapings take place in Haiti than anywhere else; that was before the earthquake and Lord knows how it is by now.

[harkadog]

24. I'm sure you will give hard numbers for your claims.

[ChazII]

5. Here are two links that may help

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=6848672&page=1
and
http://www.nationalterroralert.com/updates/2009/02/13/kidnapping-capital-of-the-usa-phoenix-arizona/

edited to add second link

We may not be number #2 but we are close.

[RobertPlant]

6. has anyone hear heard of Maryvale?

My grandparents live there and they tell me of this one neighborhood that 50 years ago was like a Levittown and a great place to live in. Then a lot of kids got cancer so everyone moved out and it became a haven of meth labs, cocaine smuggling, and drop houses.

[SargeUNN]

7. yeah I lived close to Maryvale a couple years ago

it is a poor area and has a strong Hispanic community. That is in the West Valley and the West Valley is mostly Hispanic and also very poor. The apt. complex I lived in I only knew one other there who was not Hispanic and it was a large complex, the owners were very rude and disrepectful to the ones who lived there so I moved.

[Historic NY]

8. Az Crime is down...by 16.6% overall, homicides by 38% & robbery 27%

http://www.opposingviews.com/i/new-fbi-crime-stats-contradict-anti-immigrant-hype-in-arizona

One of the clinching arguments for Arizona’s tough new law aimed at illegal immigration has been the perception in that state that crime has been rising, and that undocumented workers are largely to blame. Yet the Journal reports that the incidence of violent crime in Phoenix last year plunged 16.6 percent compared to 2008, a rate of decline that was three times the national average.
According to the Phoenix Police Department, the downward trend in crime has continued into 2010 even as the “illegal immigrant crime wave” story reverberates on cable TV and talk radio.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB20001424052748704113504575264432463469618.html

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/prelimsem2009/table_4al-ca.html

[SargeUNN]

9. Don't let the Stats fool you but

pay attention to the big picture. I lived in Mississippi for over 50 years and have lived in Phoenix for 3 years now, and I am amazed at the likeness of this issue here to the likeness of Jim Crow back in Mississippi. Let's say someone states that most crimes in Jefferson County Mississippi is committed by blacks, now that makes you think blacks are bad and a major problems. The real picture is yes most crimes in Jefferson County Mississippi are committed by blacks because it most of the county is made up of blacks so why it is shocking in an overwhelmingly black county that the crimes are committed by blacks?

Here in Phoenix there are areas that are almost all Hispanics and few whites so why it is shocking that Hispanics might commit more crimes in those areas? The stats might be correct but might not be shocking when you look at the total picture.

I have stated over and over to few's interest the more detailed side of this until frankly I am beginning to think people don't want to learn more about the real problems just to solidity or back up their own desires of which side they fall. I could state the situation again here, but since it seems to matter little I will just wait and see if anyone is wanting to know it instead.

[harkadog]

10. Phoenix is number 2 in the world in kidnappings

http://www.drugaddictiontreatment.com/addiction-news/drug-crimes/phoenix-number-two-kidnapping-capital-as-drug-cartel-wars-intensify/ Many DUers don't care about this or dismiss it because it is mainly just happening to the illegals. Sick.

[SargeUNN]

11. Here is the ignored problems and neither side really seems to care

about discussing these problems which are really easier solved but certainly not as "sexy" as lumping everything into one pile and label it "illegal immigrates".
First thing is to understand the make up of them. It isn't as simple as just one group but are comprised of more than one which includes, those who came here documented but due to red tape and/or cost of lawyers for renewal, crappy handling of the process because some worker or workers didn't do their jobs very effectively, their visas expired. There are those came here at an age that they were too young to make a decision but their parents brought them and in many of these cases they know no other country but this one. There are those who came here because of economic problems in their country and wanted more chance to provide for their families. In this class fits those who were promised a job and income, and maybe even citizenship by corporate coyotes. They might even had paid a fee to come. They normally hide in the shadows, use no welfare programs, break not even the most minor law, and certainly don't try to vote. Then there are those who are here for one reason and one reason only, to disrupt, commit crimes and most often are cartel people. They come in and usually have money to keep themselves from being caught in one of Joe's sweeps where those living quietly in the shadows might not turn their lights on too fast as dark approaches, or maybe a tail light got broken out. These sweeps don't get the real problems just the one who really isn't going to commit any crime, but the real criminals in this group will commit their crime and that might be when they get caught. SB1070 will be no more effect than Joe's sweeps but will make finding the hard crime problems in this group even harder to get to. The more peaceful ones right now are not that open to police but a few will tell of the hard criminals to get them, but with this law, that will be harder to do. This law will also affect born and naturalized citizens of Hispanic orgins but one like myself who is white skinned, blue eyed, and blondish hair isn't likely to be.

The more logical and effect way is to not burden law enforcement with such as 1070 and instead free them up to go after the hard criminals. If a process was in place to get these peaceful undocumented people to come out and work toward citizen or some reasonable arrangement, they would be more likely to help get the hard criminals exposed and arrested, but now why should they take the risk.

[Tansy_Gold]

12. That site provides almost no documentation for its claims

Lots of "Some people say" and other innuendo, but no links.

It appears to be a rightwing, anti-drug site.



Tansy Gold

[struggle4progress]

14. Such sites are EXACTLY why I am asking for documentation

[Tansy_Gold]

16. I took a closer look at the site and IN MY OPINION --

Again, MY OPINION, it is a rightwing scare site. "Cannabis use leads to later problems" that sort of thing.

The "article" claiming Phoenix is #2 in the world does not have an identifiable author, gives no citations or links for any of its claims, and is filled with, as I mentioned in my previous posts, lots of typical propaganda lines of "some say" and "it's been reported" and so on.

I would recommend this NOT BE TRUSTED any further than we trust faux nooze, unless and until the claims presented in it have been verified independently.


Tansy Gold, callin' it bullshit

[Historic NY]

18. Who is #1? Why? How do we know it? ........

The same can be said for other immigrant populations too. The Chinese prey upon their own enslaving those coming here with years of hard work& exploitation. The Russians, etc, etc. The story has been the same for a hundred plus years among those coming here. That alone should be the main reason for immigrants to mainstream, to learn English to assimilate outside their own ethnic locals. Fear and the lack of education & trust are all too common in the immigrant communities. The strong will prey on the weak. Imagine coming here for freedom only to be preyed upon.

[harkadog]

22. The site gives hard numbers on a per year basis if you bothered to look at it.

But if you think they are making the numbers up then I sure with the power of the internet who will be able to show the numbers to be false. I won't hold my breath.

[Warren Stupidity]

26. What it does not do is provide numbers for other cities in the US or the world

not does it address statistical problems such as the fact that cities where kidnap for ransom is actually a serious problem are also cities where these crimes are generally not reported to the police as that results in the death of the victim. Mexico City, Rio, Sao Palo, Lagos, Caracas, Bogata etc. have huge kidnapping problems - and not one of those cities is even mention in your link. Phoenix might have the highest rate in the US, but kidnapping for ransom is a rather rare crime here.

Note the OP claim is 'world' not 'US'.

[Tansy_Gold]

27. that's not my job. It's the job of the unnamed author of the piece

to provide substantiated evidence of her/his claims. Not "some people say" or "it's been reported." Who are those "some people"? Are they law enforcement officials who will go on record by name and state the facts? Or are they just someone the author of the article overheard in a coffee shop?

Anyone can make up "hard numbers." I can tell you there were 17 murders in Apache Junction, Arizona last year and that's a "hard" number. It's also pulled out of thin air, or my @$$, whichever you prefer.

"Hard" numbers from an undocumented (pun intended) source are worthless. They're bullshit.



Tansy Gold

[harkadog]

28. This is ABC News

But of course you will say it is some corporate news site and just making numbers up. http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=6848672&page=1

[Historic NY]

38. The phone call was a nice touch none involved were hispanic.....

its was about disrespecting the leader. Sure sounds like the old Mafia days, when you stumbled over bodies all around the big cities.

[Tansy_Gold]

41. Well, you're getting better.

Now, what is the SOURCE for these claims. ABC news can put it out there, but if their source is a circular loop back to the drug addiction website, we haven't accomplished anything.


http://phoenix.gov/haht-bin/hsrun/payf/CRIMGRIDP/StateId/Q-UOIbz7-Sg5Wo7KukqV_cQj3osEq-VrLt/HAHTpage/reportOrMap

Phoenix Police Department does not apparently compile statistics on kidnapping. So where did ABC get their information?

Oh, and by the way. Just for the information of those reading and/or posting on this thread who might not "know" me, I do live in Apache Junction, Arizona. I've lived here since April '06. Before that, I lived in Buckeye, Arizona for over 20 years. I used to shop at the Target that used to be at Maryvale Mall and at other stores in the area, watched 4th of July fireworks at Maryvale Park several times. I can't say I'm "familiar" with the area, but I've been there. I have friends who still live in the general area.


TG

[harkadog]

42. So now ABC journalists are no good for you.

I predicted that. BTW I called the crime statistics division of the Phoenix police Dept. on Friday to find out info on kidnappings and I was told "We don't make that information public -- you can file a FOIA request and our attorneys will review it". What is the Phoenix police Dept. hiding?

[Tansy_Gold]

44. No, the ABC "journalists" are NOT good enough for me if they

don't provide sources for their information.

And of course you "knew" I would say that because you "knew" there was no more substantiation for Brian Ross's comments than for the unknown author of the first article you linked to.

You can, if you like, provide a hundred or a thousand links, and I don't care if they're to God herself -- but without concrete evidence, I'm not gonna take you at your word, ESPECIALLY when you yourself say that the Phoenix PD doesn't give out that information!

Ya know, I'm a pretty amicable person, and I don't get too many posts or sub-threads deleted, but I have to say your stubbornness on this issue, your insistence on the validity of your claims even without corroborating evidence, all combine to make me start to wonder what your motive in all this is. It sure seems that you're anti-immigrant, and that doesn't seem to be in keeping with the more or less liberal point of view on DU.

At any rate, when you come up with some serious evidence -- no more hearsay from unidentified sources -- maybe I'll engage you in dialogue. But until then, I don't have the time to waste.

Adiós, amigo.



TG

[harkadog]

45. You don't want to know.

That is why the cover up by the PPD doesn't bother you.

[Tansy_Gold]

46. Actually, I DO want to know. But I want to know FACTS,

not this stupid bullshit you keep putting out.

OOGA BOOGA! PEOPLE ARE BEING KIDNAPPED OFF THE STREETS! IT'S ALL THE ILLEGALS! WE GOTTA ROUND
UP ALL THE BROWN PEOPLE TO MAKE SURE WE GET ALL THE KIDNAPPERS!!!

ooga booga yourself. There are aliens landing on top of Superstition Mountain tonight, too, just before the moon comes up, and they're gonna lead me to the Dutchman's gold, but I'm not gonna share it with you cuz it's a secret.




Tansy Gold

[harkadog]

48. Actually I am opposed to illegals not because of kidnapping

but because our high unemployment in entry level jobs and because of the fact illegals depress wages wherever they are at. I am not one of those fools who believe "they are just doing jobs Amerciansw won't do". BS. I am alive long enough to know that before the big illegal surge in the 80s and 90s those jobs were getting done and by Americans.

I didn't post the OP about Phoenix and kidnapping, I just responded to it. There are links to CNN and others about this but you would reject them also because you want to be blinded to the truth so you don't have to respond to it. Isn't it interesting that no one can post any link withe the "real" facts to dispute this. You don't want your cute meme disturbed that illegals are all just "hard working individuals who want to help their families."

[pinboy3niner]

13. Yet Phoenix reduced violent crime by targeting repeat offenders, NOT "illegals"

From your OWN source:


According to Phoenix Mayor Phil Gordon, violent crime is down 18 percent through November 2009 vs. the same period in 2008. Phoenix Public Safety Manager Jack Harris attributes the decrease to arresting repeat offenders, saying “targeting the most serious offenders has had significant results…particularly in dismantling organized crime syndicates, gangs and drug dealers.”

http://www.drugaddictiontreatment.com/addiction-news/drug-crimes/phoenix-number-two-kidnapping-capital-as-drug-cartel-wars-intensify/


Are you advocating that Phoenix drop its proven enforcement strategy to pursue your policy of targeting "illegals"?

[harkadog]

23. You are so blinded you can't even see what is being written.

Illegals are tied up in Phoenix with the crime syndicates, gangs and drug dealers. Do you advocate open borders?

[pinboy3niner]

31. You COMPLETELY miss the point

Police already are effectively reducing violent crime in Phoenix by targeting CRIMINALS, not by targeting "illegals," as YOU advocate.

In supporting the anti-immigrant law, you began by suggesting it is necessary to combat violent CRIME (i.e., kidnappings in Phoenix).

When it is pointed out to you that targeting "illegals" with a "papers, please" policy actually diverts police resources from investigating crimes and apprehending violent criminals, and that, in fact, targeting CRIMINALS has been effective in reducing violent crime in Phoenix, you fail to respond.

You continue to insist on rounding up "illegals," even though targeting resources there UNDERMINES efforts to reduce violent crime, which you profess is your concern. Instead of responding, you throw out another diversion ("Do you advocate open borders?").

It seems that it is YOU who "can't even see what is being written."

[The Magistrate]

17. It Is Dismissed, Sir, Because It is Fiction

But you have demonstrated your absolute incapacity to understand what constitutes evidence, or a reliable source....

http://www.freelegaladvicehelp.com/criminal-lawyer/kidnapping/World-Kidnapping-Statistics.html

[harkadog]

20. As usual you fail

Your site gave no numbers whatsoever.

[The Magistrate]

34. You, Sir, Simply Do Not Like The Numbers It Supplies, Since They Show Your Claims To Be Nonesense

Your problem is that whatever you can find that will show Arizona bigots in a favorable light you will endorse as truth. You have made it quite clear you neither know nor understand the concept of evidence, and lack the capability of logic.

If Haiti and Mexico rank one and two as countries in which kidnappings occur, and over half of all kidnappings occur in Latin America, it is not possible for a city in the United States to be ranked second in the world for the number of kidnappings in a city.

[harkadog]

40. You lose as always

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=6848672&page=1

[struggle4progress]

49. My question is not whether one can find sites making the claim: my question

is where the statistics actually come from

[pinboy3niner]

50. Good question

If the FBI and the Phoenix PD aren't tracking it, who is? It may very well be that someone is compiling data on this, but how can it be given any credence without an identified source?

[Warren Stupidity]

25. no it isn't.

But if you have links to actual data that demonstrates that phoenix has the highest kidnapping rate in the world, please provide those links. I've looked, and I cannot find actual data, but there sure are lots of rightwing hate sites pushing this bullshit.

[harkadog]

30. I didn't say the highest in the world now did I?

More made up stuff. I said the highest outside of Mexico City. Highest CITY out side of Mexico City not COUNTRY. Try this from ABC News http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=6848672&page=1

[Seneca]

15. And #1 in teams choking in the NBA Western Conference Finals

:D 9 times now.

[jillan]

21. NOW THAT HURT!

:( I've been a Suns fan for a really long time. Game 5 was a tough loss.

I grew up in Chicago and was a Cubs fan, which was perfect training for being a Suns fan. Be nice....I'm heartbroken this morning.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

19. I have a kidnapping insurance policy on my ass

And in the associated paperwork no American cities and only two Mexican cities are listed as no-go zones.

It could well be that Phoenix is the kidnapping capital of the US, but it is probably a ridiculously low number by global standards.

[joeybee12]

29. Probably not even #2 in Arizona...n/t

[Iggo]

32. It sure is!

And not only that, but ALL of the kidnappings are by illegals!

:eyes:

[Bluebear]

33. And the illegals are contemplating a whole lot more, so Phoenix can become #1!

:silly:

[Iggo]

35. Boi-oi-oi-oi-oing!

:crazy:

[pinboy3niner]

36. LOL! I blame it on illegal exceptionalism

:rofl:

[Bluebear]

.

[Bluebear]

37. The illegals are taking the kidnapping jobs that rightfully belong to us.

:crazy:

[pinboy3niner]

39. FTW

:rofl: Of course, hijacking this thread will attract some attention. Got papers?

[Iggo]

43. This thread is the #2 thread for hijackings in all of America!

Maybe even the world!

You don't know!

[pinboy3niner]

47. LOL! I refuse to believe it until you provide a drug addiction treatment blog...

to support your assertion!:rofl: