Capitalist Poverty Reduction: Was Deng Xiaoping a positive leader for the Chinese people?

[BrentWil]

I am new to this board. I have thus far enjoyed it. I am a democrat that believes in figuring out how to do what is best for people in a pragmatic way. In other words, capitalism and globalization aren't going anywhere, IMHO. There is much talk on the board of the evils of capitalism, etc. I agree to a certain degree. But the basic premise, seems to produce great wealth for people.

With that being said, one key example of this is China. China is a country that has made unbelievable progress in poverty reduction since the economic reforms of Deng Xiaoping. The UN states that:

http://www.undp.org.cn/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&catid=10&sid=10

China’s rapid economic development in the past two decades has generated the most rapid decline in absolute poverty ever witnessed.
Both national and international indicators show that China has already achieved the goal of halving the number of people in extreme poverty by 2015 set by the UN as one of eight Millennium Development Goals

The results of his economic reforms have been amazing. With that in mind, was he a good leader for the Chinese people?

[AllentownJake]

1. Brutal repression

Falun Gong, Christians, Tibetans...the economic miracle in China is in regards to who in China you talk to, oh and the Chinese lie on statistics as a matter of routine, our government at least puts truth in plain sight and than manipulates headlines...the Chinese create numbers out of thin air.

[BrentWil]

5. Then how does he compare to what came before?

How is he compared to Mao?

[David__77]

13. Most Chinese love Mao more than Deng.

People don't put up portraits of Deng in their homes or small businesses. Many Chinese do so with Mao's portrait. But comparing them is somewhat unfair. Without Mao leading the liberation war, Deng could never have ruled. Without the progress during 1949-1976, there would have been no basis for the reform period. "Only socialism can save China." Socialism can make use of the market just as capitalism makes use of planning.

[BrentWil]

25. Mao is like George Washington..

He has seen as someone that freed China and made them more independent. However, his policies are now very much discredited. A common saying is now, "Well, Mao thought...." It is something that has come to mean, outdated and old.

[AllentownJake]

28. Mao was an ideological monster

no better than hitler. It is like comparing Stalin to Kruschev. One was less of a paranoid sociopath.

[BrentWil]

32. His policies did cause millions of deaths...

[AllentownJake]

33. Putting mildly

on a death and destruction of culture level...Mao makes Adolph and Stalin look like pleasant alternatives.

[BrentWil]

35. No, you are right..

Mao caused alot of pain. However, it was a continuation of centuries of pain. What makes Deng Xiaoping important is that he came our of the same system and made things better. Alot better.

[Starry Messenger]

2. Boy, you guys are really starting to get nervous.

:popcorn:

[AllentownJake]

3. Yes they are

It is quite fun to watch.

[BrentWil]

7. Nervous?

In what way? WHo are "you guys".

[marmar]

14. +1000

The Neoliberal spin machine is on overdrive of late.....

[Starry Messenger]

15. The sounds of blades being sharpened disturbs their beauty-rest.

[BrentWil]

24. hahahahahahahahahahahah....

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah...........

Too funny

[David__77]

4. Deng was mostly bad, a little good. But I say so for reasons most would dispute.

He was bad precisely because he pushed the capitalist reforms too far, especially in agriculture starting in 1979 and then in the whole country with his "southern tour" in 1992. He was good, a little bit, because he maintained some semblance of social stability for the average Chinese, and did not completely implement a neoliberal economic agenda, maintaining currency controls and control of strategic sectors.

China was actually growing quite rapidly prior to 1978 as well, with the exception of only a few years when there were natural disasters. A lot of China's infrastructure was developed during the 50s - 70s, and still serves it today.

But, aside from the case of Deng, I see capitalism and socialism both as tools to be deployed in a "pragmatic" way in order to achieve what I see as equal goals of economic development and limited economic polarization.

[BrentWil]

6. You say too far..

But I doubt your average person in China would think so. To them, he is a very beloved leader.

[David__77]

12. It's a mixed bag.

Mao is definitely more beloved than Deng. Few will deny this. What does that mean politically?

[BrentWil]

17. Mao was the end of Western Influence in China..

He is rightly remembered for that. However, he also caused alot of pain during his tenure in power. THe Chinese will say, "well Mao Thought" . He is a signing that signals "old" thinking.

[Canuckistanian]

16. Deng was a beloved leader?

Not with young people. Don't you remember all the protests with young people throwing soft drink bottles (because "Xiaoping" sounds like "little bottle")?

[BrentWil]

23. Certainly there were protests

And actions that don't look good by western standards... but you have to look at the overall picture.

[AllentownJake]

30. He murdered civilians and dissidents to get his way

He removed people from villiages into city centers to work at pennies an hour as slave labor. He ruled as a dictator and never stood for an election as a referendum on his ability to govern from those he governed.

Which part of his legacy do you wish to discuss.

We can discuss Pharoh, Augustus, King Louis IVX or Xerxes if you wish as well. Tryants all of them.

[BrentWil]

36. He came from a brutal system to power..

He was in the system that he was in. In it, he did a great deal.

[On the Road]

8. I Cannot Imagine There are More than a Handful of Chinese

who think that Deng Xiaoping was a step in the wrong direction.

He found a cat that could catch a mouse instead of criticizing its color.

[BrentWil]

9. Very true..

He was Pragmatic. He did some bad things, but overall the people of China benefited greatly. He rightly deserves to be considered on of the best leaders of the 20th century.

[On the Road]

19. There Has Developed a Nostalgia Movement

for songs and dramas from the Mao period, but I think most Chinese would rather go back to the Japanese occupation than the Cultural Revolution.

[FarCenter]

10. He laid the foundation for 30 years of orderly advancement of the Chinese economy and society

[BrentWil]

11. Agreed..

[CreekDog]

18. China's capitalism is less capitalist than the socialism people here are arguing for

The idea that you have to convince people here to be capitalist using the example of China is kind of silly.

[MellowDem]

20. Not at all...

China is definitely more "capitalistic" if by that you mean less regulation. In fact, it's close to lawlessness, though they are starting to implement the rule of law a little better. It's why all those corporations move their sweatshops there.

The kind of government control over there isn't socialism, it's tyranny.

[BrentWil]

Go there and talk to people

[MellowDem]

26. And?

What the people think and what is reality are often quite different. Just look at the US for example. Not that all Chinese think the same way of course. Mao killed millions of his own people, just like Stalin, but the current Chinese can look back with some reverence, because they don't have to live under Mao but can still revel in the nationalistic fervor of that era. Just like many Russians do about the Communist era, or many Germans did about fascism.

A lot of it is simply national pride, regardless of the ideology. Nations that used to be stepped all over have some of the worst cases of nationalistic fever because of it. Especially nations with new power. You can call it a Napoleon complex or a lack of national self-esteem, but whatever it is, the nations that are most comfortable with themselves are usually the least nationalistic.

China is little more than a libertarian's paradise ruled by a non-democratic oligarchy. And it has made them wealthy. Not just or humane, but much wealthier than they've ever been. And it has come at a huge cost to their environment. But now there is a growing middle class and growing expectations from the government. China has already had to start cutting back on its authoritarianism because of it. But what concerns China most is the economic growth rate. If the growth rate ever stalls or even drops, that's what China's government fears most. The people allow the oligarchy to rule as long as China as a whole benefits, but as soon as the growth stops, it's hard to say what will happen.

[BrentWil]

34. THen measure it in terms of food..

In those terms (people eating), China has done alot better since 1979

[BrentWil]

22. Go there and talk to people

[BrentWil]

21. I am focusing on being pragmatic...

I want things that work.. not certain policies.

[Dutch]

27. Dismissing people's arguments until they undertake a field trip to the other side of the world

is not redolent of a pragmatic or, indeed, mature attitude. I for one would be interested to hear your reponses to some of the critiques offered here, if you are are willing and capable of giving such.

[BrentWil]

31. I have given such responses...

He was working and came out of an absolute brutal system. In such a system, at times he had to be brutal. However, at the end, he greatly improved the life of the people of China. This is backed up by data and the people of China themselves.

[AllentownJake]

29. Policy is how things work in a democracy

Of course the point of a gun and executing all that oppose your ideas instead of getting consent from the governed is a policy. A very old one in fact.

Worship your dictatorship. It is becoming a new American thing to do.