In bold move, Colorado alters teacher tenure rules

[The Northerner]

DENVER – Colorado is changing the rules for how teachers earn and keep the sweeping job protections known as tenure, linking student performance to job security despite outcry from teacher unions that have steadfastly defended the system for decades.

Many education reform advocates consider tenure to be one of the biggest obstacles to improving America's schools because it makes removing mediocre or even incompetent teachers difficult.

Colorado's legislature changed tenure rules despite opposition from the state's largest teacher's union, a longtime ally of majority Democrats. Gov. Bill Ritter, also a Democrat, signed the bill into law last month.

It requires teachers to be evaluated annually, with at least half of their rating based on whether their students progressed during the school year. Beginning teachers will have to show they've boosted student achievement for three straight years to earn tenure.

Teachers could lose tenure if their students don't show progress for two consecutive years. Under the old system, teachers simply had to work for three years to gain tenure, the typical wait around the country.

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100613/ap_on_re_us/us_grading_teachers

[lamp_shade]

1. Bold move (and good move) indeed.

[mediaman007]

9. You know nothing about tenure.

[lamp_shade]

12. Ooooooooh... yes I do.

[mediaman007]

13. Then its pretty foolish to contend that tenure is the

reason teachers aren't fired. Tenure prescribes the due process that needs to occur before a firing. If "due process" is good enough for criminals, it should be good enough for employees.

[lamp_shade]

21. I'm all for due process. The issue is incompetent and ineffective teachers who SHOULD be fired.

[Go2Peace]

23. Always loverly to see CONSERVATIVE talking points on a liberal site

yes we know what they like to say. All those awful teachers not doing their jobs and making a mint off the public.

Next welfare moms and union slackers right?

[lamp_shade]

26. You disagree with my statement?

[Go2Peace]

49. Their Talking points and way of life have been so successful

that we parrot them, often without even knowing it. Language changes the brain, and soon we begin incorporating those values into our own value system.

The values that you are speaking of have been an attack point for the Republicans for 30 years. Most of society had little complaint with processes like "Tenure" and such animosity toward teachers before that. That feeling likely comes from a Republican viewpoint. Whether we consciously understand it or not.

Teaching has been under attack. Teachers have been so constrained in what they can and cannot do that education is strained. They get little support. They have to deal with a high variety of issues and problems. The PRIMARY problems with our schools, and that is almost *all* schools, because our system is compromised and not doing that great throughout the country, is the culture war.

Also, as liberals, and thinkers, we have to get away from the Republican viewpoint that people who struggle at their jobs should immediately be thrown out on the streets and replaced. Why? Not just because trying to solve the problem is the more HUMANE thing, but also because it is better for us all to take the time and effort to find out what skills are needs and retrain, or to shift them whenever possible to a place that they fit better. We *used* to do that far more often than we do, but thanks to our morally bankrupt and depraved ideologies of the Right, it has all but disappeared in our society.

[mediaman007]

29. You can't be all for due process, then dismiss it.

Just how are you measuring those "incompetent and ineffective teachers?"

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WinkyDink]

55. Why is that? Because teachers must experience the worst aspects of private industry w/o the big $$?

[adigal]

59. So let's say I teach in a poor district, and you teach in a rich one

In NY, education is funded locally, so in my area, schools spend 7K a year per kid and in Westchester County they spend 22K per kid.

We all take the same tests. And how is that fair??? This will NEVER stand after the justifiable lawsuits.

[Hannah Bell]

2. "bold" - is that what they're calling attacks on labor these days?

[pipoman]

3. I am trying to think of another

profession which has the reward of being almost untouchable in return for seniority and can't think of even one other profession outside of education.

edit..And 3 years job time earns the right to become appallingly complacent knowing there is little recourse for your employer...welcome to the real world educators where performance is actually expected.

[sabrina 1]

4. How about cops? What does it take to be fired

if you're a cop?

[pipoman]

6. I've known cops who have been fired for

failing a periodic psyche exam or for many other transgressions. I, personally, am not opposed at all to union protection to a point, just not to the point of untouchable for public servant type jobs..

[Hannah Bell]

18. which public servant is it that's untouchable? hell of a lot more teachers getting fired

than cops.

there's one in portland that's killed a few people under dubious circumstances & is still on the job, despite multiple protests.

i guess he has tenure.

[Hannah Bell]

5. i'm trying to think of why some feel it necessary to pretend that tenure = "untouchable"

[pipoman]

7. I am trying to think of the last time I

have heard of a teacher being fired for anything less than sex with a student...

[sabrina 1]

8. I'm trying to think of the last time I heard of a

doctor being fired, or a lawyer.

Or the CEO of a failed Wall St. Bank.

Or a war criminal. Or a torturer.

I'd call prosecuting War Criminals a 'Bold Move'. But the same politicians who are out to get teachers, don't seem to feel the same urgency to even fire War Criminals. Why don't we just 'move forward' and focus on the future rather than the past?

[pipoman]

19. Well..

Doctors and lawyers are routinely fired by their clients, happens pretty regularly, patients/clients have free will to decide to use another, more competent professional,,,not so much with students. Further private business isn't my concern, it is accountability of publicly paid employees who in general have much higher thresholds of job security than the private sector employees.

[sabrina 1]

27. You forgot about publicly funded war criminals.

And we do have lawyers, prosecutors funded by the public. It's very rare to see a Prosecutor get fired even with a record of selective or political prosecutions as we've seen many times.

My point is there are many people who ought to be fired especially in high office, funded by the public, who are not only not fired, but often rewarded. Why are teachers being singled out?

As long as we refuse to at least fire war criminals even if we won't prosecute them, I can't really get too excited about teachers, even bad ones. A child can survive a bad teacher or two, we all have, but a tortured child will never recover from that.

The notion that we should move on from these crimes has changed my view of everything. I did once think that tenure was probably a bad idea, but it has really diminished in importance to me to practically not even being on the radar screen of things to worry about.

As I said, I'll get back to the luxury of worrying about an occasional bad teacher when this country gets its priorities in order.

[pipoman]

32. I think we probably agree, mostly, on this issue

I am not anti-teacher at all, only anti-unaccountability for publicly paid positions from top to bottom.

[Chulanowa]

11. Allow me to translate your ravings into another job

let's pretend I'm a waiter. I ferry food from the kitchen to the diners in the restaurant. it's not a complicated job, but it is fairly intensive, as I have to not only be able to ferry food, but also make recommendations, do basic customer service, convey information from customers to kitchen, tally up the bill, and many other things that add up. One day the customer at my table calls for the manager of the establishment. The two talk, and the manager comes over to me. He informs me that the customer hated the food, and I'm out of a job. or perhaps the customer choked on the broccoli, I'm still fired. Whatever the problem is, I'm out of a job.

Does this sound "fair" or "right" or even "sane" to you? No? Because that's exactly the situation you're endorsing for teachers.

Teachers have no control over the content they present, and increasingly, no control over how they are allowed to present it. Additionally different students learn and retain at different rates, due to things ranging far beyond the control of any teacher.

So then much as the waiter is blamed for both the cook's poor material and the customer's inability to chew, you are blaming teachers for the school board's inability to gather useful resources, and the varying abilities of the students themselves.

What's more, the job of a teacher is vastly more complicated than that of a waiter. Also much more stressful. if the waiter's table has a guy with a black eye, the waiter doesn't have to care. Teachers have to. The waiter does not have to babysit other people's children; if someone tries, he can get the manager to throw the people out, easy as pie. The Teacher HAS to do that. The waiter gets time off and weekends; the teacher spends his or her nights sorking on assignments and grading papers, and weekends are taken up by teacher meetings, workshops, and more prep.

This isn't "Bold." it's fucking stupid, and I feel for the children of Colorado, who are now going to have even more crowded classrooms and teachers with no experience.

You're having trouble thinking of another job with solid tenure? Well, first off, that's a testament to the sad state of labor these days, primarily thanks to idiots who think shit like this is an awesome idea. While you're trying to think of that, I'll be trying to think of a career where job security is based off of customer performance.

[sabrina 1]

16. Excellent post ~

One more point, No Child Left Behind is the main reason for the failure of our education system over the past ten years. A system based on testing is doomed to failure, in fact it had to have been designed to fail as no person in their right mind would ever suggest that children or anyone else for that matter, can be educated by testing.

Otoh, it was very good for business, it was written by businessmen for businessmen. And Bush's friends in the Educational Publishing business have made millions for which they thank him and the Congress who inflicted it on the nations teachers and students.

Many good teachers didn't wait to be fired, they quit over this program. There is witch hunt on against teachers and it's sad that it is coming from the administration and the president who had nothing but good things to say about teachers while he was a candidate. Lots of promises made to help them when he reached the WH, broken.

[pipoman]

20. These conversations always

devolve into teachers arguing that every teacher is a stellar performer only held down by the mental incapacity of the parents of their students vs. a presumption by teachers that anyone who advocates for teacher responsibility and dismissal for complacency hates labor and/or teachers...I have worked in the real world long enough to know that 10 or 20 percent of adults are incompetent in their jobs, I find it unbelievable that teachers are any different.

[Go2Peace]

25. My experience?

That the people that like to complain that others don't do their jobs are usually the ones who "don't do their jobs". Seriously. I noticed that about 20 years ago and the assumption has pretty much held up consistantly.

[Chulanowa]

28. Perhaps that is true

However, that does not mean that the "merit pay" idea has any sense to it whatsoever. Can you think of another job that does merit pay? Can you think of another job where your job security is based on what your customers do with what you provide?

No, and no.

Considering that the ones who would be deciding merit are the ones who are the primary reason for the failures they harp about, that just makes the idea even worse.

I'm not a teacher. I cook for the elderly. I'm a member of SEIU. And I'm telling you that your stance is a union-breaking stance, a union-hating stance, whether you're aware of it or not. Solidarity strengthens labor, and right now the teachers unions are one of the last strongholds. They go, and the rest of us are fucked.

[Go2Peace]

24. awesome. +10000. Schools are in the middle of a culture war

It's amazing how the republican view has seeped in and even our own want to eat each other for dinner.

[Smarmie Doofus]

35. Increasingly we are two Democratic Parties.

>>>>>It's amazing how the republican view has seeped in and even our own want to eat each other for dinner.>>>>>

The RW dems... anti-union, pro-war, pro-privatization, pro-corporate... are the former moderate wing of the GOP, ideologically speaking.

Traditional DEMS ( flip the pro-s and anti-s above) make up the balance. I think we are still the majority in the party but it's getting close.

[Go2Peace]

51. It shows how effective and scientific Republican information distortion is

I believe that the modern science of propaganda is/will be the greatest threat mankind has ever faced. The discovery of the power of propaganda is what pushed WW1 and WW2 into place, and the technique was relatively primitive at the time. Now we have honed it to an artform with the help of "marketing" science.

The Republicans lack wisdom and are constrained by their own ideology. But one science that they embraced and have become experts at is the science of the manipulation of minds. Democrats are just coming up to speed on that and I fear for where we will be once all power is using this as a primary delivery mechanism.

The singular reason I post on this site is a hope to bring this to light within our party. The *real* struggle is not a fight of Republicans vs Democrats. It is much deeper than that.

[Go2Peace]

48. Their Talking points and way of life have been so successful

that we parrot them, often without even knowing it. Language changes the brain, and soon we begin incorporating those values into our own value system.

The values that you are speaking of have been an attack point for the Republicans for 30 years. Most of society had little complaint with processes like "Tenure" and such animosity toward teachers before that. That feeling likely comes from a Republican viewpoint. Whether we consciously understand it or not.

Teaching has been under attack. Teachers have been so constrained in what they can and cannot do that education is strained. They get little support. They have to deal with a high variety of issues and problems. The PRIMARY problems with our schools, and that is almost *all* schools, because our system is compromised and not doing that great throughout the country, is the culture war.

Also, as liberals, and thinkers, we have to get away from the Republican viewpoint that people who struggle at their jobs should immediately be thrown out on the streets and replaced. Why? Not just because trying to solve the problem is the more HUMANE thing, but also because it is better for us all to take the time and effort to find out what skills are needs and retrain, or to shift them whenever possible to a place that they fit better. We *used* to do that far more often than we do, but thanks to our morally bankrupt and depraved ideologies of the Right, it has all but disappeared in our society.

[snappyturtle]

36. Love it........................

............."I'll be trying to think of a career where job security is based off of customer performance."

I am a retired teacher. I shudder to think a teacher can be fired because of students' grades. There are good outcomes and poor outcomes in all professions. Recently, I found my letter of tenure. It was an acknowlegement of my performance meeting the school district's criteria. I was evaluated twice a year and I might add I never knew when this was going to happen. However, tenure did not guarantee my job. I knew if I screwed up, the school board would have me in front of them asap. and I would have been 'let go' in a minute....union or no union. In this school district I could not haved waved my letter of tenure as any sort of defense.

I think it's safe to say we have all had good teachers and bad teachers. The converse is also true. I experienced cycles of students. Some years students were more receptive and eager (as a group)contrasting years of rowdiness and lack of responsibility on the students' part. Tenure is a guidepost that a particular teacher at a particular time met the standards...period. As a student,I had good tenured teachers and poor tenured teachers. However, in all cases, I learned despite the teacher. It was a life lesson in good bosses/bad bosses.

I also agree with your assesment of the curriculum. Teachers have no or little input into curriculum. We were told what to teach and for how long to teach it. Then it was move on to the next part. If a student did not 'get it' we could try to hold the student back. Then the parents threw hissy fits and would not hear of it. Until we again recognize that students learn at different rates and with various methods we will continue to fail. Blaming poor outcomes on tenure is absurd.

[krispos42]

40. Good points. I'll have to remember them for future discussions IRL n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

43. +1

[Hannah Bell]

17. maybe you don't get out much.

http://www.justnews.com/news/23792382/detail.html

http://newstimes.augusta.com/stories/2010/06/13/new_579677.shtml

http://www.bonnersprings.com/news/2010/jun/10/chemistry-teacher-fired-after-student-gets-injured/

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2010-05-19/news/chi-napfire-100519_1_facebook-teacher-board-members

http://www.northjersey.com/news/education/96200229_Top_teacher_is_one__of_25_sent_packing.html



but yes, it's true: it's more difficult to summarily fire public school teachers for crimes such as having sex before marriage with someone of a different race or for being an atheist, as two private school teachers were recently.

tenure doesn't mean a teacher can't be fired for cause. it means they can't be summarily fired without a hearing.

[pipoman]

22. And a hearing with impossible criteria

results in incompetency not meeting the criteria for dismissal..not always the case, but a hearing depends on the objective of said hearing..

[Hannah Bell]

46. no clue what that's all about. you said no firings but for sex, i gave you some.

you just stick to your script.

[Tutankhamun]

37. It happens all the time in California.

Districts here don't tenure anymore and haven't for years. I've seen colleague after coleague fired as they gain more experience and districts have to pay them more. It's a lot cheaper to get rid of experienced teachers and bring in new ones. Districts are taking advantage of their newfound power to keep costs down by ridding themselves of experienced teachers. Without tenure, teachers are fired left and right without even being given a reason.

Untenured teachers may as well have targets painted on their heads.

[Davis_X_Machina]

41. In my building (70 teacher FTE) we've had six in a decade.

No sex, either.

[Salviati]

45. It's bescause some people hate unions, and will bash them any way they can.

[mediaman007]

10. Nice generalization.

The reason teachers don't get fired is "lazy management."

[MadHound]

39. You have no clue about education, just believe the garbage that is spewed by the anti-labor folks

First of all, teaching isn't untouchable. A teacher can always be fired, sometimes for the smallest of reasons. All tenure does is guarantee the teacher a fair hearing, not a summary firing.

And if you think that teachers who have achieved tenure are complacent, well, again, your ignorance is showing. Teachers are required to achieve certain benchmarks throughout their career.

Your ignorance concerning this matter, combined with your apparent sponging up of RW talking points is simply foolish. Go educate yourself, you'll find that you're wrong in both your views and attitude towards teachers.

[Go2Peace]

52. Thanks for the information

Amazing how effective Republican propaganda has been isn't it? Even the "liberal" side of society has been altered by it.

I am constantly amazed when I hear a Christian Fundamentalist put down teachers. Because it turns out that teaching is high on the list of career choices by these sects and they are heavily represented in the profession. They don't know what to say when I tell them that they are "eating their own" by putting down teachers, because if they think that teachers are all lazy heathens, they better go talk to the people sitting in their pews. LOL

[adigal]

60. Wall Street - can't fire those clowns!! And they make the big bucks!!!

Much more than teachers.

[jtuck004]

14. Fornication. Wizardry. Having pictures of beer mugs in your facebook

profile...

http://www.goddiscussion.com/27251/teacher-fired-for-fornication/
http://www.wtsp.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=79533
http://www.wsbtv.com/news/21586641/detail.html

[Chulanowa]

31. Wizardry

Motherfucking wizardry.

And these people are the ones running the show and who want to determine "merit"

Dumbledore would kick their asses for this.

[jtuck004]

15. Deleted Dupe

[Smarmie Doofus]

30. Not "bold " in the least. Corporate money > union influence.

Or should I say, "Corporate $$ + public ignorance and indifference + political demagoguery + temporary national teacher glut > union influence."

It's not even close.

[madrchsod]

33. children are not widgets.....

[rucky]

34. I wouldn't want my kids around teachers with actual job security.

If you reward them for years of dedication, there's no telling what they'll do afterwards.


obligatory: :sarcasm:

[WinkyDink]

56. They'll join DU. ;-)

[Toots]

42. If you teach so well that every student gets an A how do you improve?

You are required to improve three years in a row or lose tenure.. :shrug:

[alcuno]

44. And how does it get implemented fairly?

How do you evaluate a math teacher and a librarian equally?

[madfloridian]

47. Breaking union contracts....very "bold" indeed. It is called union busting.

And teachers are now the prey of the privateers led by Arne Duncan.

[Raineyb]

50. It used to be that the grades a student earned was a reflection of how

well he or she did their job (studying) not a reflection of how well the teacher did his or her job. This is ass backwards and they wonder why the children don't learn shit?

[madfloridian]

53. Those grades and everyday work don't matter now. Arne says one test...

and one test it shall be.

And why are not people getting upset over this?

Damned if I know.

[WinkyDink]

54. And yet, ONLY Core Subject teachers will be subjected to this. Or is Home Ec tested? Phys Ed?

[madfloridian]

57. They haven't planned it that far along yet.

:)

Eventually someone will notice the plans are haphazard and incomplete and say oh wait....but probably not.

[Smarmie Doofus]

58. Music? Art? Special Ed? Library Science?Teacher/Coordinators?

Drama, Reading Coaches? Resource Room teachers, Technology coordinators? Computer teachers?

The "reformers"... as you can see... have given the matter a lot of thought.

And ... yeah... they really understand how public schools run on a day to day basis.