I just had a terrible falling-out with one of my best friends over "supporting the troops."

[vickitulsa]

I'm posting about it here because I'm still upset (though I have cooled off) and need to hear what my DU brothers and sisters think about this "poem" my friend sent to me.

I want everyone to know up front that I do NOT agree with the way this author (it was from an "unknown" source) chose to express his or her admiration for our troops. The piece that follows is NOT by me and I was insulted as hell when I read it -- coming as it did from a lady I've known for years and who is a fine poet herself (I've posted her stuff here before) who loves and supports our troops and veterans. Her handle online is "Armymom" because her son is in the military (active duty but near retirement now).

After I read the -- I call it a poem because I don't know what to call it -- and was angered by it, I then read a response that was sent back to Armymom AND her entire addressee list. That email was even worse than the "poem," since a veteran took the insults a step further, calmly and not in the heat of anger, and lectured the reader about how those who protest Bu$h's wars and don't support the "mission" are not supporting the troops.

That made me even more irate, so when I replied to my friend, I sounded off pretty roundly to her. I felt she had sort of set me up, since I'm accustomed to reading her own poems, mostly, when she sends them out in emails to her friends. I was wide open for the attacks that were in this "poem" and then the reply by her other friend. It was a sort of double-whammy and I wasn't prepared at all for something like this coming from this particular friend, for sure!

Here is the piece -- and remember: I'm NOT posting it as representing my own opinions, even though the second half of each couplet does convey something worth thinking about regarding the sacrifices our troops make. It's the first half of each couplet that upset me.

(Note: the piece -- it's not really a poem -- was untitled.)

You stay up for 16 hours.
He stays up for days on end.
_________________________
You take a warm shower to help you wake up.
He goes days or weeks without running water.
__________________________
You complain of a "headache", and call in sick.
He gets shot at as others are hit, and keeps moving forward.
__________________________
You put on your anti war/don't support the troop's shirt, and go
Meet up with your friends.
He still fights for your right to wear that shirt.
__________________________
You make sure you're cell phone is in your pocket.
He clutches the cross hanging on his chain next to his dog tags.
__________________________
You talk trash about your "buddies" that aren't with you.
He knows he may not see some of his buddies again.
__________________________
You walk down the beach, staring at all the pretty girls.
He patrols the streets, searching for insurgents and terrorists.
_________________________
You complain about how hot it is.
He wears his heavy gear, not daring to take off his helmet to
Wipe his brow.
__________________________
You go out to lunch, and complain because the restaurant got your
order wrong.
He doesn't get to eat today.
__________________________
Your maid makes your bed and washes your clothes.
He wears the same things for weeks, but makes sure his weapons are
clean.
__________________________
You go to the mall and get your hair redone.
He doesn't have time to brush his teeth today.
__________________________
You're angry because your class ran 5 minutes over.
He's told he will be held over an extra 2 months.
__________________________
You call your girlfriend and set a date for tonight.
He waits for the mail to see if there is a letter from home.
__________________________
You hug and kiss your girlfriend, like you do everyday.
He holds his letter close and smells his love's perfume.
__________________________
You roll your eyes as a baby cries.
He gets a letter with pictures of his new child, and wonders if
they'll ever meet
__________________________
You criticize your government, and say that war never solves
anything.
He sees the innocent tortured and killed by their own people and
remembers why he is fighting.
__________________________
You hear the jokes about the war, and make fun of men like him.
He hears the gunfire, bombs and screams of the wounded.
__________________________
You see only what the media wants you to see.
He sees the broken bodies lying around him.
__________________________
You are asked to go to the store by your parents. You don't.
He does exactly what he is told.
__________________________
You stay at home and watch TV.
He takes whatever time he is given to call, write home, sleep and
eat.
__________________________
You crawl into your soft bed, with down pillows, and get
comfortable.
He tries to sleep but gets woken by mortars and helicopters all
Night long.
____________________________
You sit there and judge him, saying the world is probably a worse
place because of men like him.
If only there were more men like him

Now be honest and tell me if I "took it wrong" or if this framing of the issue and the accusations made of others are unfair, unjustified, and insulting, okay?

I want to know how it strikes you, my DU friends I've come to trust and respect.

Thanks for your input!

-Vicki

[mmonk]

1. I thought it was very insulting and shallow.

Real simple and black and white in its thinking and propaganda tone.

[wtmusic]

2. "unfair, unjustified, and insulting" - I think you nailed it Vicki

Like anyone is judging the troops. Those people don't get it, never will, and are suckers for that maudlin kind of shit.

onedit: my best friend from childhood is a rabid W supporter, and I can't bring myself to call him anymore. It's depressing.

[Monkeyman]

4. Yep Well Said From This Old Vet

[Error]

78. In the dimestore in my tiny home town

they used to have these little wooden plaques with things like the poem "Footprints" on them.

Do you mean these suckers are like the people who bought those plaques?

[uppityperson]

3. Extremism takes many forms.

I would call the generalizations here extreme, on both halves, and the contention that (if the writer thought they were true) why trying to get these people back home and stop this occupation is not supporting the troops. "Support the troops" by itself is a simplistic jingoistic advertising strategy.

[Monkeyman]

5. To Support The Troops Bring Them Home and Take Care Of Them

[ourvoicescount]

45. Exactly right IMO.

[StarryNite]

6. The problem is that the 'war' or

should I say occupation, is unjust. The troops are suffering and for no damn good reason. They never should have been sent there to begin with and hell no, there shouldn't be more of them acting on behave of the bush evil empire. The sheeple try to guilt people into supporting the occupation by bringing up how badly the troops have it over there. The fact that the troops have it bad doesn't mean it is for the right reasons.

[Bobbieo]

7. To Be Honest With You -

That poem describes everything I have been thinking about our troops in Iraq. I am afraid they are going to come home as "mindless monsters". No human being can go what they are going through and not be physically and mentally affected by the horror they experience every day they are in Iraq.

Our troops are being desensitized and that is what scares the hell out of me. What will happen when they come home. Will there be enough money left or medical facilities to take proper care of them? If not, God help us all!

[Burma Jones]

37. I work with a lot of USMC Veterans of the Gulf War and OIF

I disagree with you about them coming back as mindless monsters. Yes, they witness great horror, but the vast majority of them handle it. We ask police and EMT and Firefighters to witness much of the same carnage, just not as concentrated.

A lot of Vietnam vets were damaged, but nowhere near the numbers people think. I would like to say that there are facilities and a real desire from the Administration to help returning troops in the next decade, but I cannot.

[WillyT]

8. Ya Know... You Could Tell Her...

that they volunteered. (Which you wouldn't, and neither would I.)

But then that's exactly the kind of crap they say to us when we describe the horrible mess they're in over there, and we say we want to bring them home.

I really just don't get these people.

I imagine you have to delude yourself in order to cope.

:shrug:

[dave_p]

9. It's gross. You were right.

It's saying what? That it's immoral to criticize this outrage?

What about the chickenhawks who sit at home and revel in it while others do the killing & dying?

It isn't even decent poetry.

[babylonsister]

10. I want the troops home so they don't have to deal with the horrible conditions

there, or the presence of Americans in an 'occupation' they are never going to win. Your friend has compassion for the troops, but no input on why they're there and shouldn't be.

And for the record, I NEVER judge the soldiers, only the men who put them there who never fathomed that this was a war they cannot win; think about Israel/Palestine, Christians and Protestants (who have perhaps resolved their differences, somewhat, after so many years). This admin made a lethal mistake by thinking they were going to prevail. Ain't going to happen.

[Phredicles]

11. I've seen this before - I wonder where it originates from;

It does sure hit a lot of the serious rightie talking points ("You put on your anti war/don't support the troop's shirt,...You criticize your government, and say that war never solves anything...You hear the jokes about the war, and make fun of men like him...You see only what the media wants you to see").

The bit about "criticizing your government" is the heart of this screed; that's the point here, presented in the most emotionally loaded way possible.

In short, it's a load of fascist crap.

[vickitulsa]

12. I feel better already!

Much appreciate the responses, all of you.

*Whew~* My friend wrote me back a curt note making it clear that she didn't think I should have "talked to her that way," and I have written back trying to explain it more thoroughly, though my first reaction contained plenty of explanation, I thought.

I'd hate to lose a friend over this, but as I told her, it's not worth it to me to take this sort of crap that seemed directed right at me (the "you" at the beginning of each couplet says it all). I thought I knew her better than that ... to think she would not only send me something like that piece but then not understand why it pissed me off so much!

I told her I might post it here to get input from you folks, because I'm thinking perhaps she doesn't know anyone else personally who would react as I did. She DOES know I am anti-Bu$h and hate his wars based on lies for profiteering by his cronies. It's not like she didn't know I am anti-war.

Thanks guys, I'm breathing a little easier now. Maybe if she's still speaking to me at this point, I'll send my friend a link to this thread.


Oh, and I thought the fact that the writer assumed that all our soldiers are MALE spoke volumes, too....

[alstephenson]

71. Ha! I noticed that, too (assuming all our soldiers are MALE) eom

[Gregorian]

13. I've been thinking about that phrase today.

But in a cynical way. Instead of "support the troops", I keep thinking "support the contractors". After all, that is what this war is all about. Shifting wealth. It's not even about getting oil for us Americans. Bush cares not about us nor the troops. He's out for cash. And mostly for his array of business buddies.

So instead of framing it with "you" versus "the soldier", I would rephrase it another way. It's the framing of this poem that bothers me. As though I'm to blame for the hardship those soldiers encounter. If anyone is to blame it's Bush/Cheney. After all, I had a lot less to do with getting those soldiers to be in harms way than they did. In fact, you could just put "Bush" in place of the word "you", and you'd have it.


And then finally, why is this person separating themself from "you"? As if they are over there with the soldier. You includes them. I think that's perhaps the most sneaky part of this thing. So I would include them in it. And furthermore, I would say that if it bothers them so much, maybe they ought to do something about it. Perhaps that would be enlisting, or trying to get the soldiers out of that situation. That might mean writing Congress to finally get proper armor. Or to stop the war altogether. And to stop projecting their problems onto "you".

[piesRsquare]

22. Wow, Gregorian...

Great post...you're awesome! :loveya:

[Gregorian]

72. Thanks!

I don't know what to say other than you made me smile on a day when I needed it.

[vickitulsa]

31. Couldn't get back on DU to respond, but this IS a very insightful analysis, Gregorian.

I'm appreciating everyone's offerings and assessments, but this was an excellent summary. I thought that, about the author separating him- or herself from the others s/he is guilt-tripping, also. The entire thing is just so unlike the friend I know or thought I knew who writes what she calls "tribute poetry" that is very sensitive and compassionate. Her own work is so far removed from this piece, I just couldn't believe she even sent this one to me!

I will try to get her to read this thread and maybe she will understand that she probably stepped on more toes than just mine if she sent that to a lot of people (and she did -- she has a lot of fans and a substantial "following" among veterans). If Monkeyman and other vets here can see the truth, however, she might be surprised by how some of her own vet friends react to receiving this. I happen to know a lot of them, and a few that I don't think would like this -- though they might not blow up over it as I did.

I'm just so sick and tired of anyone falling for the talking-points sales jobs that try to guilt-trip the public into buying Bu$hCo's product!

Hey, a lot of people bought their product and it was CRAP, so they're not hearing it anymore! It's like how I react when one of my friends tries to get me to join a pyramid scheme or something.... ;)

Thanks, Gregorian, and all of you, for your thoughtful replies.

[Nevernose]

14. Technically, it's a poem & Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori

For the record, I'm with Keats: Poetry can be judged by the truths it conveys. "Beauty is truth" and all of that. Not by the platitudes and talking points it purports. There's no real depth to the poem you posted, no purity: just a list of stereotypes and jingoistic bullshit.

"Survivors" by Siegfried Sassoon
No doubt they'll soon get well; the shock and strain
Have caused their stammering, disconnected talk.
Of course they're 'longing to go out again,' —
These boys with old, scared faces, learning to walk.
They'll soon forget their haunted nights; their cowed
Subjection to the ghosts of friends who died,—
Their dreams that drip with murder; and they'll be proud
Of glorious war that shatter'd all their pride...
Men who went out to battle, grim and glad;
Children, with eyes that hate you, broken and mad.

A couple more by Wilfred Owen:

He wears the same things for weeks, but makes sure his weapons are
clean.

"Arms and the Boy"
Let the boy try along this bayonet-blade
How cold steel is, and keen with hunger of blood;
Blue with all malice, like a madman's flash;
And thinly drawn with famishing for flesh.

Lend him to stroke these blind, blunt bullet-leads,
Which long to nuzzle in the hearts of lads,
Or give him cartridges whose fine zinc teeth,
Are sharp with sharpness of grief and death.

For his teeth seem for laughing round an apple.
There lurk no claws behind his fingers supple;
And God will grow no talons at his heels,
Nor antlers through the thickness of his curls.

"Dulce et Decorum Est"
Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of tired, outstripped Five-Nines that dropped behind.

Gas! Gas! Quick, boys!-An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime...
Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.

In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,-
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.

[vickitulsa]

40. Wow, now THAT is some fine poetry! Thanks so much

for sharing that here! I want my friend Chris to read these and then look at the piece of crap she sent me and be fair in evaluating who's really telling the truth here.

Chris actually wins poetry awards and is a member of the International War Veterans Poetry Association (I think I have that right), and a lot of people appreciate her own work. I've been in Vietnam veteran support groups online with her -- in fact she started one, Safehaven -- but after the first year or two she can hardly bear to post there much herself, she told me once.

I had to leave that group as well as other Nam vet groups because the PTSD was just too free-flowing (I have PTSD too, not from combat, from childhood trauma), and the freefire zones in those groups were too numerous to avoid.

I still have many vet friends that I'm very close to and remain in touch with, though, and my staunch support for them, as well as their active duty counterparts, has never waned. I love it that we have so many cool ones here at DU!

We who care about and support the Nam vets and other vets and active duty military folks don't like what is happening to them under this administration -- that's my point! (And I see many of you are saying this in your responses in this thread.)

Why would we deserve to be attacked and guilt-tripped for opposing Bu$hCo's wars for profit in which they, the Bu$hite criminals misuse and harm our troops, getting many of them killed? And then they, the rightwing fascists abandon our servicemembers as wounded vets suffering from PTSD and great emotional damage due to their service!

I know how the VA treats veterans, and it's a disgraceful business. They and their families deserve better, much better; and we who really do support our servicemembers want and demand, even in our protests we say so!) better treatment for our troops and vets, in every way.

How could anyone see us as that forwarded "poem" put it? It's the Right, the NeoConservatives, the Republican pukes who ginned up these wars with their lies who are doing the troops all wrong and showing them no mercy or respect!

I just don't get it.

Well, I do -- but I don't understand it coming from Christina.

Here is one of her poems, called 1,000 Yard Stare, which shows how deeply she feels for the vets who've seen the worst in war.

They have "that" look -
the eyes are dark and ringed with red -
pain-filled, tired eyes,
empty, angry eyes, almost dead...
eyes that are full of the horror that they've seen,
I wonder what they saw in jungles green;
what changed their souls forevermore
though they are now on friendly shore -
What did they see to change them so?
I need to know.
If you think you need to live in silence
carrying the burden
of things long gone -
you're wrong.
I can't change anything
but I can say hold on to me
when the nights are long -
Sometimes I think you
can't see the forest for the tree -
you can see 1,000 yards
but still, you can't see me.

©Copyright June 1998 by Christina

And here is a link to her home page, which has a short bio and her explanation of her connection to the vets and soldiers.

http://armymomhaven.com/index.php

In the section of her original war poetry, there's even one titled "My Vietnam Connection" that further explains her background.

I notice she still has that Bu$hCo propaganda bit at the bottom of her homepage, added right after 9-11-01, which tallies the number of years and days and seconds since the "terraists declared war on the United States of Amurka." I guess she doesn't get that part either; but I don't think she believes Saddam crafted those attacks on our soil.

One of our best mutual friends, a Nam vet and also an excellent writer, is as anti-war as I am, I think, and I can't imagine he liked that last piece of Rovish tripe from her either. He probably received it, and I doubt he would reply quite as emphatically as I did to her; but I think I know how it must have struck him -- and some other vets and supporters we know. I believe she may get further feedback from others about it, and then maybe she'll see what set me off.

But it's possible that no one she knows or sends that piece of guilt-tripping propaganda to will be honest with her about their feelings if they were insulted, hurt, and angered by it. People know Chris is a good lady who usually shows such deep affection for the troops and has no inclination from all I've seen of her writings (and that's a LOT) to criticize or condemn or accuse people who may not agree with her views and beliefs.

Wonder if she'll remove the two of my own bits of writing from her site? One of them is song lyrics, actually, but they're both posted there and elsewhere as poems.

--Just checked and they're still up. Anyone interested can read Do You Wonder? here:

http://armymomhaven.com/spencerv/do_you_w.php

I wrote it on the Memorial Day following my (first and only) visit to the Wall in DC for Veterans Day in 1999. Even though my painful condition was already getting out of control then, I rode a Greyhound bus 32 hours one way and then back home again five days later, just to meet online vet friends IRL and to finally visit the Wall (actually it's called the Vietnam Veterans Memorial, I think). I needed to do this, and I'm very glad I did, even though it took me almost as long as it's taking many of the Nam vets. I believe that so many of us civilians who lived through the long years of that war were scarred deeply by it, sometimes in ways we don't even recognize.

It was a trip during which I danced (my last dances before my pain condition stopped me from doing that) the night away to old tunes with several vets at the annual DMZ to Delta Dance and met in person many of the veterans, men and women, that I'd met and gotten to know online over the years. It was a profound experience for me in so many ways.

Chris also put the lyrics to my song On The Evening News on her website, here:

http://armymomhaven.com/spencerv/on_the_e.php

And on "my front page" on her site there is the photo of me that Chris's friend who created her website put together. I was hugging a teddy bear that had to sit in for my veteran friends after I came home from the DC trip. I used Imageshack as usual but couldn't get it to appear here even as a thumbnail without the "illegal code" message.


You folks can see that she and I go back a long way, and I'm happy to report that I received an answer back from her this morning, after I sent my second email explanation of my anger last night.

Hopefully we can work our way through this as we have so many other upsets over the years that stemmed in one way or the other from our affection and close friendships with the many Nam vets -- and their families and supporters -- that we know.

Perhaps I did "overreact" a bit in my first reply to her, but I have to say in my defense that I'm so fed up with having to listen for six years to the right wing talking points being spouted by freepers and their ilk, and that piece Chris sent me just "sent me" over the edge!

I'm not one who minds apologizing if I've hurt someone, so I'll be sure she knows I'm sorry about that part of it, too. I am sorry I hurt and upset her -- but I was hurt and upset by what she sent me.

Incidents like this one are the reason I sometimes have to step back from interacting with folks quite so intimately, thinking I know them and how they'll receive something I write. It's so damned easy to get communications all crossways, and especially when all we have to go by are typed words on a screen!

Some people may think I overuse smilies :shrug:; but if I ever do, it's because I'm trying very hard to be sure my comments are not misunderstood. Irony, for certain, does not translate very well via the written word alone!

[truebrit71]

60. Dulce et Decorum Est is quite possibly the best anti-war poem ever written...

...Simply superb...

[iverglas]

90. and my favourite, the simplest of them all

It's only one stanza that's read at all Remembrance Day events in Canada, and that's what I was thinking of:

They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them.


but the whole thing goes:

With proud thanksgiving, a mother for her children,
England mourns for her dead across the sea.
Flesh of her flesh they were, spirit of her spirit,
Fallen in the cause of the free.

Solemn the drums thrill; Death august and royal
Sings sorrow up into immortal spheres,
There is music in the midst of desolation
And a glory that shines upon our tears.

They went with songs to the battle, they were young,
Straight of limb, true of eye, steady and aglow.
They were staunch to the end against odds uncounted;
They fell with their faces to the foe.

They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them.

They mingle not with their laughing comrades again;
They sit no more at familiar tables of home;
They have no lot in our labour of the day-time;
They sleep beyond England’s foam.

But where our desires are and our hopes profound,
Felt as a well-spring that is hidden from sight,
To the innermost heart of their own land they are known
As the stars are known to the Night;

As the stars that shall be bright when we are dust,
Moving in marches upon the heavenly plain;
As the stars that are starry in the time of our darkness,
To the end, to the end, they remain.


With Memorial Day coming up in the US, and all. Simple, dignified remembrance and respect is something everyone can share.


On the more bitter side, one from down under that's always been a favourite of mine, by Eric Bogle:

http://www.fortunecity.com/tinpan/parton/2/matilda.html
(to read his intro, too)

Now when I was a young man I carried me pack
And I lived the free life of the rover.
From the Murray's green basin to the dusty outback,
Well, I waltzed my Matilda all over.
Then in 1915, my country said, "Son,
It's time you stop ramblin', there's work to be done."
So they gave me a tin hat, and they gave me a gun,
And they marched me away to the war.

And the band played "Waltzing Matilda,"
As the ship pulled away from the quay,
And amidst all the cheers, the flag waving, and tears,
We sailed off for Gallipoli.

And how well I remember that terrible day,
How our blood stained the sand and the water;
And of how in that hell that they call Suvla Bay
We were butchered like lambs at the slaughter.
Johnny Turk, he was waitin', he primed himself well;
He showered us with bullets, and he rained us with shell --
And in five minutes flat, he'd blown us all to hell,
Nearly blew us right back to Australia.

But the band played "Waltzing Matilda,"
When we stopped to bury our slain,
Well, we buried ours, and the Turks buried theirs,
Then we started all over again.

And those that were left, well, we tried to survive
In that mad world of blood, death and fire.
And for ten weary weeks I kept myself alive
Though around me the corpses piled higher.
Then a big Turkish shell knocked me arse over head,
And when I woke up in me hospital bed
And saw what it had done, well, I wished I was dead --
Never knew there was worse things than dying.

For I'll go no more "Waltzing Matilda,"
All around the green bush far and free --
To hump tents and pegs, a man needs both legs,
No more "Waltzing Matilda" for me.

So they gathered the crippled, the wounded, the maimed,
And they shipped us back home to Australia.
The armless, the legless, the blind, the insane,
Those proud wounded heroes of Suvla.
And as our ship sailed into Circular Quay,
I looked at the place where me legs used to be,
And thanked Christ there was nobody waiting for me,
To grieve, to mourn and to pity.

But the band played "Waltzing Matilda,"
As they carried us down the gangway,
But nobody cheered, they just stood and stared,
Then they turned all their faces away.

And so now every April, I sit on my porch
And I watch the parade pass before me.
And I see my old comrades, how proudly they march,
Reviving old dreams of past glory,
And the old men march slowly, all bones stiff and sore,
They're tired old heroes from a forgotten war
And the young people ask "What are they marching for?"
And I ask meself the same question.

But the band plays "Waltzing Matilda,"
And the old men still answer the call,
But as year follows year, more old men disappear
Someday, no one will march there at all.

Waltzing Matilda, waltzing Matilda.
Who'll come a-waltzing Matilda with me?
And their ghosts may be heard as they march by the billabong,
Who'll come a-Waltzing Matilda with me?


And one more from an even earlier war, just because I have a soft spot in my head for Rudyard Kipling, and because the more things change ...


Tommy

I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o'beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:

O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins,'' when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's "Thank you, Mr. Atkins,'' when the band begins to play.

I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!

For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.

Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy how's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.

We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints:
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;

While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind,"
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind,
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind.

You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.

For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country," when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
But Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees!

[TahitiNut]

15. Try to remember: Don Quixote was a hero.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/TahitiNut/384

[global1]

16. Let's Be Fair Here - We're Not Judging Him - The Soldier, The Troops.....

he's just doing his job. A job he was trained for. A job that he has had to make sacrifices for.

Who we are judging are the people/person that put him in that situation - * and *Co and the Neocons.

I feel for that soldier as I feel for the Iraqi people having to deal with this occupation.

As for the 'You' in the piece. I look at this 'You' as the 28% that still support this pResident and this occupation. Most have no concept as to what is really going on and have not made sacrifices - the other 'You's' are the ones sitting back here profiting from this occupation that put this soldier in the situation he/she finds themselves in.

So to be honest - I think you might have overreacted to this piece a bit. I can't speak for the veteran you spoke of. But if we turn our attention to the veterans - we might feel for them as well. Especially if they saw action during their service. In order for them to justify what they had to sacrifice when they served - they have to agree with the current occupation. Otherwise - most would probably be more screwed up than not.

Same thing for parents, family and significant others that have lost someone in this occupation. In order for most of them to deal with their loss - they have to believe that their loved one did not die in vain or for nothing or for a lie or for oil. They have to believe that their loved one died for a 'noble cause'.

So I feel for the soldier - our troops -; the veterans of other wars; and the loved ones that have lost someone dear to them.

We need to take out our pent up anger - on *Co; - on the war profiteers; - on the MSM that doesn't provide us with the truth; - on the neocons; on the PNAC'ers and not on someone that is misguided by these criminals.

Just my opinion.

[vickitulsa]

43. I don't disagree with your views as you state them here.

And I welcome your comments -- I did ask for them! :)

It's just that Chris knows full well that I have a lot of time and emotion invested in caring about and for our troops and vets. It's not like I needed a reminder to keep their sacrifices in mind -- or even a news update informing me how bad it is for them over there.

And I sure didn't need a lecture from Chris's other email friend about how to support the troops and the put-down he offered to anyone who doesn't support the "mission" in Iraq.

We've been friends for years, and she knows me pretty damn well.

She explained to me that her other friend had a right to his opinions, and that's of course true. But coming as his words did on the heels of my reading the "poem" that sparked them, it was just too much being crammed down my throat.

I didn't send my replies to her to everyone on her distribution list, though. I didn't think they needed to hear it, so I just responded to my friend who sent me the stuff.

Now we're trying to repair the damage to our friendship, and I think we will.

Why is it, I wonder, though, some people are so utterly clueless about what liberals really believe?....

The fact that that same piece of "poetry" has made the rounds on the Internet before and continues doing so means that some people are trying awfully hard to circulate the reich wing, anti-left talking points to a wide distribution, imo.

[mmonk]

17. Maybe you could point out that they are over there based

on lies and thus, real support doesn't come from those that send them over there based on those lies.

[uppityperson]

18. rereading, I'm not living right.

I don't call in sick with a headache, don't oogle pretty girls, don't have a maid to make my bed, don't have a "don't support the troop's shirt", cuddle babies when they cry, like the heat, don't eat out, cut my own hair or have a friend do it, don't care if a class runs over, hear all sorts of jokes but missing ones about the occupation, miss making fun of military instead send packages, would love to be asked to go to store by parents but they are dead, haven't turned on TV in months, just not judgemental enough. Dang, I'm not living right. Insulting letter it is.

[vickitulsa]

44. *grin*

Me either, I guess! :hi:

[piesRsquare]

19. While reading this poem, the only words that came to my mind were...

..."Well, aren't WE high and mighty!"

You got it right, Vicki; you're cool.

Another post earlier in this thread stated what my thoughts about this war and troop support, in that I can't stand it how the troops are being (mis)used and exploited. I have no problem with the troops. I've spent a lot of money sending care packages to the troops. I'm so mad that these people in the military are suffering so much for corporate gain. They've been lied to, used, abused, exploited, cheated, you name it.

What point is this "poem" supposed to be making? Should I feel ashamed, somehow, because I'm not suffering in a war-zone like her kid currently is?

Myself, I actually do wish I could go to Iraq and give some support and assistance to the troops: Counseling, para-chaplaincy, education assistance--something. Tried to join the Navy back in November, 2003 but was turned down (Airforce said no back in the late nineties) because of neurological condition. So the best I've been able to do is send them boxes full of good soap, toilet paper, new toothbrushes, toothpaste, goodies, etc, as they haven't had enough supplies.

Tell the writer of this "poem" to stop exploiting her kid's hardships in Iraq for her own narcissistic benefit, and to get over herself. And leave it at that.

Take it easy--thanks for sharing. Sorry for the long rant...

[vickitulsa]

48. Thanks, pies. I relate very well to your feelings about this war.

I too have wished I could do more, do something, do anything, to help the troops and vets who've served in this insane war in Iraq and the one in Afghanistan too. (I heard they're calling Afghanistan "The Forgotten War" and the Bushies are happy it's mostly forgotten! How many ways was the Iraq Invasion and Occupation supposed to be a distraction?)

Chris has sent letters and "care packages" to soldiers ever since Vietnam. I've participated in some of those activities, too, but it never feels like I'm doing quite enough. So I do the best I can to help others I talk to understand how the troops and vets NEED our help in ways that the reich wing doesn't talk about.

I've written at least a dozen songs on the Vietnam War or about veterans and war themes. Not a lot of people have heard them, true; but those who have may have gone away with a better understanding and a more caring heart for those who put their lives on the line for their country. And maybe they touched many other lives in that respect, too.

I can only hope that the more we who see through the BS this administration puts out make sure that others hear about what we know, the more folks will wise up and stop believing the lies that are getting people killed and harming literally millions of people.


(And your rant wasn't long. MY rants are long! ;))

[BurtWorm]

20. It's not a poem. It's an argument with a strawman.

You're angry because you feel you're being put into the strawman's place and you can't and don't even know how to defend its positions. You're angry, in other words, because this "poem," which is ostensibly your friend's position, totally misrepresents your views, making it clear that she not only doesn't hear you--she doesn't even want to hear you.

No wonder you're angry. Any sane person would be.

[Lasher]

23. Very good analysis

I see similar strawman exercises all the time, via email. I think you're supposed to imagine the Marine Corps Hymn is playing in the background. And it's always something interesting they ran across, not anything they actually came up with themselves, so that they can attack you while pretending they are not doing it.

Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. - Samuel Johnson

This is essentially a faux argument, where one person gets to play their role and yours too, and reach a conclusion - while your function is reduced to that of a spectator. It might be fun to turn that around on them in a reply:

***

Hey I just ran across this the other day. I don't know if I agree with all of it but I thought it was interesting.

The True Patriot

The true patriot loves her country.
You love your ideology.

The true patriot works hard to learn the truth about our government's actions.
You mindlessly repeat what you are fed by the corporate media.

The true patriot dares to question our leaders' decisions.
You say, "support the troops" but you mean, "support my president"

The true patriot is much slimmer than you.
You suck.

[BurtWorm]

26. I'm going to forward that to everyone in my address book!

;)

:toast:

[Lasher]

28. Heh heh. I was just playing around.

Maybe it could be improved some before broadcasting. I'm sure you can come up with a few lines of your own.

[BurtWorm]

38. I was kidding too.

I can't stand it when people send me "poems" forwarded to everyone in their address book (like the one in the OP.) ;)

[Lasher]

74. Yeah, that gets annoying. Particularly when they're too stupid and/or lazy to check Snopes.

But I might actually reply (to all) to the next 'this is a noble soldier and this is worthless you' email as I have suggested. It won't be long before another one comes marching down the internet, trumpets blaring.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

41. Allow me to try to contribute

The true patriot seeks the welfare of all his countrymen.
You seek the welfare of the well-to-do only, of which you mistakenly think you're one.

The true patriot wants his country to be at peace with all other nations.
You want war, war, war.

The true patriot does his best to act as a diplomat and represent well his country abroad, even in a leisure trip.
You are arrogant and bitch that people don't understand English.

[Phredicles]

34. How 'bout, "The true patriot is much NICER than you."

Let's not be slagging the zafting patriots among us, please.O8)

[Clark2008]

49. Or the pregnant ones.

:)

[mmonk]

53. Priceless.

Especially the ending.:rofl:

[vickitulsa]

57. Isn't it though? Priceless, I mean.

:) :hi:

[Lasher]

75. Thanks. I believe I'll use this input to build on it.

If I actually go through with this in an email reply I'll post something about it in the DU propaganda debunking group. But the neocons haven't been quite so prolific lately with their emails as they were just one year ago. And they're pretending they never actually supported The Decider. Kind of like the way Junior never knew Kenny Boy.

[Swede]

55. Strawman was exactly my first thought.

Who the fuck is laughing at the troops?

[Warpy]

21. "You put on your anti war/don't support the troop's shirt,"

OK, that is what turned it from a letter reminding us what our military goes through to a HATE THE LEFT thread.

If they had left that out, it might have been a passable guilt trip for chickenhawks.

[progdonkey]

25. "guilt trip for chickenhawks"

You're right, that's exactly what that is, which makes it all the more ridiculous! Whoever the nameless author of that trash is, he was clearly attempting to condemn the left and anti-war crowds, yet reading it, all I could think was, "Yeah, you tell those Young Republicans who refuse to enlist!"

Though, perhaps it's one of those deals where it actually has about fifteen different authors, and the original was written by someone who actually was condemning the chickenhawks, but as it went around a bunch of illiterate RWers thought it was condemning the left (because anything that shows real sympathy for the troops is by definition anti-left in their warped minds) and added in some more explicit anti-left statements. :shrug:

[vickitulsa]

54. Well said, Warpy!

That one line alone turned it into a HATE THE LEFT thread!

All of you here are proving I was right to seek your input, with your excellent responses and analyses.

I'm working on a reply to my friend Chris this morning, and I AM sending her a link to this thread. I hope she reads every post and realizes I'm not the only person out here who reacted the way I did to that forward.

Thanks again, all of ya's! :hi:

[orleans]

24. interesting. take out four of the "verses" and to me it rings true

to how people (republics) think/behave regarding the troops

they are so cavalier and indifferent

these troops are totally in a fucked position and the resident fuckhead told us all to go shopping!

i think willy t posted here about republics who say shit like: well, they volunteered.

YES! i hear that too. so, imo "their" attitude is: tough shit--you asked for this--you were getting college paid for so SUCK IT UP

the word "you" being used here in the poem is not personal (i don't think)--i think it is the "universal you" the author is referring to (albeit the universal liberal that is specifically mentioned in a couple places)

like i said, take out a few of those "verses" and just tack on a few more such as:

you make sure you buy a car with airbags to protect your family
he can't get the government to provide padding in his helmet to prevent brain injury

you go to the doctor when you don't feel well and get treated right away
he can't get the proper treatment at the V.A. when he comes home without legs

you provide the best quality of food you can give to your family
he is forced to drink contaminated water and eat rancid food served up by halliburton

you buy a dvd player or a new computer and if it malfunctions you return it
he is given equipment that does not work properly and is forced to make due

you watch the video of george bush cracking jokes about looking for wmds and not finding them in the room, "no weapons under here"
he sees his buddies being blown apart because of those nonexistent wmds they went to find

you hear george bush saying he supports the troops while he uses them as backdrops
he hears that he is being redeployed for the third or fourth or fifth time and that george bush has just extended his deployment to 15 months

you are allowed to speak up and speak out against the injustice to these troops
he is not allowed to speak openly or honestly in public and is counting on you to be his voice

you are in a position to demand change and accountability from our government
he is waiting for you demand that change and accountability on his behalf--and he has been waiting as if his life depends on it. because it does.

[Decruiter]

27. I feel nothing but outraged. Send it to VetsForPeace and IVAW along

with MFSO.

Wrong in so many ways, just damned wrong.

[calimary]

29. Whoever wrote this stuff LOST ME at "You put on your anti war/don't support the troop's shirt,"

and I'm sorry, but all I've got to say to the author is a big, fat, wet FUCK YOU!!!

NO anti-war message on a t-shirt such as ANY of those I've seen at numerous anti-war and/or peace rallies which I've EVER attended, from the Vietnam era all the way to the last five-to-six years of this one, has ever come even marginally close to being synonymous with some frickin' "don't support the troops" shirt.

Whoever shat that one out can go cheney him/herself. It's the VERY people who don't want to see our troops' lives squandered in a useless fucking war based on lies - who REALLY support the troops. You DON'T support the troops by sending them to die for a lie.

Sorry to slam down hard on this. I, too, take the framing implied in this poem as unfair, unjustified, and insulting, and that's putting it EXTRAORDINARLY politely. And I bet whoever wrote this has never seen combat. If he or she had done so, the author wouldn't besmirch or crap on the efforts of those of us who didn't want to see our soldiers fed into an unnecessary meatgrinder.

And NOBODY I know in the anti-war movement, or at any of those anti-war and/or peace rallies heard or acknowledged ANY jokes about the war or made fun of soldiers like this proverbial "him."

And if you know who wrote this, and/or who sent this, feel free to quote me. With a hey-nonny-nonny and a cherry on top, and a nice additional "BITE ME!!!" for a chaser.

Well, you did ask...

(sorry, Vicki, I'm afraid the gonzales coverage today has put me in one rip-snorter of a bad mood.)

[spoony]

36. Well put

It's unfortunate when people ruin a half-way decent idea of contemplating the hardships soldiers face by completely going off the deep end and miss the whole point in the meantime: Bush is CAUSING those hardships, we aren't! Who really supports them? The one sending them for four tours in an unwinnable war or the ones demanding better treatment of them?

[Greyhound]

30. False analogies and assumptions, apparently written by a fifth grader.

If this tripe truly expresses your friends feelings and more importantly his/her belief that they convey your feelings, your friend is an idiot.

[treestar]

32. As usual the right wingnuts project their feelings onto others

If they did not agree with the war, that is how they would feel about the troops. They cannot get their minds around their one-sided, double standard view of life. They think themselves inherently "right" and since therefore, we are inherently "wrong" it follows that we would "hate" the troops. Likewise, we are accused of "hating" Bush, etc., because they know they themselves personally hate the Clintons, etc., because they know only that their own little minds cannot get around the concept that to disagree with someone must be to "hate" them also.

Their crap always presumes that the war is necessary to maintain our freedom. This absurd and false premise goes unspoken in every one of their pathetic little guilt-trip diatribes.

The irony is that if they did not agree with the war, that is exactly how they would feel about the troops. In fact, any individual who comes out against the war or telling of what negative things go on over in Iraq incurs their wrath and hatred too.

Then look at how they treated John Kerry's service. They have zero respect for anyone on any ground whatsoever, so long as he does not agree with them, but use their double standard to guilt us when we disagree.

[Hubert Flottz]

33. Tell her...

His commander in chief went awol.
Dick Cheney got 5 deferments and never served.
He stays up for days on end.
_________________________
His commander in chief went awol.
Dick Cheney got 5 deferments and never served.
He goes days or weeks without running water.
__________________________
His commander in chief went awol.
Dick Cheney got 5 deferments and never served.
He gets shot at as others are hit, and keeps moving forward.
__________________________

His commander in chief went awol.
Dick Cheney got 5 deferments and never served.
He still fights for your right to wear that shirt.
__________________________

His commander in chief went awol.
Dick Cheney got 5 deferments and never served.
He clutches the cross hanging on his chain next to his dog tags.
__________________________

His commander in chief went awol.
Dick Cheney got 5 deferments and never served.
He knows he may not see some of his buddies again.
__________________________

His commander in chief went awol.
Dick Cheney got 5 deferments and never served.
He patrols the streets, searching for insurgents and terrorists.
_________________________

His commander in chief went awol.
Dick Cheney got 5 deferments and never served.
He wears his heavy gear, not daring to take off his helmet to
Wipe his brow.
__________________________

His commander in chief went awol.
Dick Cheney got 5 deferments and never served.
He doesn't get to eat today.
__________________________

His commander in chief went awol.
Dick Cheney got 5 deferments and never served.
He wears the same things for weeks, but makes sure his weapons are
clean.
__________________________

His commander in chief went awol.
Dick Cheney got 5 deferments and never served.
He doesn't have time to brush his teeth today.
__________________________

His commander in chief went awol.
Dick Cheney got 5 deferments and never served.
He's told he will be held over an extra 2 months.
__________________________

His commander in chief went awol.
Dick Cheney got 5 deferments and never served.
He waits for the mail to see if there is a letter from home.
__________________________

His commander in chief went awol.
Dick Cheney got 5 deferments and never served.
He holds his letter close and smells his love's perfume.
__________________________

His commander in chief went awol.
Dick Cheney got 5 deferments and never served.
He gets a letter with pictures of his new child, and wonders if
they'll ever meet
__________________________

His commander in chief went awol.
Dick Cheney got 5 deferments and never served.
He sees the innocent tortured and killed by their own people and
remembers why he is fighting.
__________________________

His commander in chief went awol.
Dick Cheney got 5 deferments and never served.
He hears the gunfire, bombs and screams of the wounded.
__________________________

His commander in chief went awol.
Dick Cheney got 5 deferments and never served.
He sees the broken bodies lying around him.
__________________________

His commander in chief went awol.
Dick Cheney got 5 deferments and never served.
He does exactly what he is told.
__________________________

His commander in chief went awol.
Dick Cheney got 5 deferments and never served.
He takes whatever time he is given to call, write home, sleep and
eat.
__________________________

His commander in chief went awol.
Dick Cheney got 5 deferments and never served.
He tries to sleep but gets woken by mortars and helicopters all
Night long.
____________________________

His commander in chief went awol.
Dick Cheney got 5 deferments and never served.
If only there were some patriots like this soldier in the GOP, but most of them never served in the military, they have always let the poor and the minorities do it for them, while they stayed safely at home as cheerleaders.

[CrispyQ]

68. Nice!

:thumbsup:

[donco6]

35. Dopey, simplistic, derivative, and utterly illogical.

And that's just for starters.

The bottom line for me - I don't blame the troops. Even the ones who have wound up committing atrocities only did it because they were placed in a situation that actively encourages it.

The group to blame is Bush and his cabal who lied us into this war.

[AngryOldDem]

39. Guilt trips don't get my sympathy

I respect the troops and wish them well, but I do not support why they are over there, nor respect the people for whom they are doing it. The poem -- to be polite -- is trite, tired tripe, and only appeals to those who see patriotism as nothing more than a yellow magnetic sticker on the back of their car.

Your response was right on.

EDIT: Spelling error

[mudesi]

That "poem" could've been (and probably was) written by a freeper

Extremely insulting and idiotic. As someone else pointed out, it is based on the strawman that there exists someone who doesn't really support the troops.

[mudesi]

42. delete

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

46. I can't see how one can support the troops.

...and at the same time want them to get killed needlessly in Iraq.

[EFerrari]

47. This isn't poetry, it's propaganda in middling prose.

She should go write for the Pentagon.

[maggiegault]

50. Wanna trump all of the jingoistic nonsense for these fools? Send them this article.

Meet my brother and his family. There are thousands more like him. Children without parents. Spouses without partners. Daughters. Sons. Sisters. Brothers. DEAD.

This link has a photo of my brother's flag-draped casket. THAT is what "supporting the troops" gets you. A 28-year-old man struck down in the prime of his life.

http://www.jconline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070511/NEWS/70511015/1152/NEWS


Fallen soldier brought joy to family
By BOB SCOTT
[e-mail]

When Kate Weiss remembers her late husband, Andy, she breaks out in a big smile.

"Andy was really laid-back and funny," she said Thursday.

"He could carry the weight of the world on his shoulders as if it was a feather."

Sgt. Andrew Robert Weiss, 28, a West Lafayette High School graduate, died May 3 in Baghdad, Iraq, from injuries he sustained due to an improvised explosive device. He was on his second tour of duty in Iraq and was promoted posthumously from the rank of specialist.

His body is expected to arrive at 10:40 a.m. today at the Purdue Airport from Dover Air Force Base, Del. He will be taken to Soller-Baker Funeral Home on Twyckenham Boulevard in south Lafayette.

Weiss' mother, Judith Weiss of West Lafayette, said Thursday that her son was an admirable person.

"I'm exceedingly proud of the man that he turned out to be and the loving husband and father that he was," she said.

"He always brought joy to his late father and me."

Andy and Kate had their first date in September 1996. They both graduated in 1997 from high school -- she from Benton Central and he from West Lafayette. They were married in October 2000.

She said Andy was an aspiring writer, who had 10 diaries. He also was a devoted reader of the late authors Hunter S. Thompson and Jack Kerouac.

Their children are Lillian, 4, and Jacob, 1. Andy and Kate called their son "Jack" in honor of Kerouac. Kate said Andy also has a tattoo on his arm to honor Thompson's "gonzo" journalism style.

She said Andy traveled with Kerouac's popular book, On the Road.

"Andy was always a deep thinker, trying to figure out the meaning of life," she said.

"He was figuring himself out and growing constantly."

She said the other soldiers respected his intelligence.

"They called him something like 'The Professor.' He carried his books and tried to get the guys to read more," she said.

Kate said the final package she sent to Andy overseas included a "Gonzo" T-shirt, his favorite Chicago Cubs hat and some of Jack's hair.

"Lilly wrote her name, and Andy was thrilled," she said.

She said many of Andy's friends will come to the visitation and funeral. Some are coming from Germany, Hawaii and Florida.

"They are his battle buddies from his first deployment," Kate said.

She said she will "celebrate" Andy's life Sunday.

"Andy gave me the best decade of my life."

[vickitulsa]

79. Maggie, this is so heartbreaking to read!

Thank you for posting these, though, and I hope Chris read them.

I have to say your brother and you were on my mind last night when I fired back my angry reply to Chris. I couldn't help but think about him since I'd read your thread about his death a few days ago.

All my anger at these criminals in charge in our country is just running together from their many dastardly acts and their evil that never ends!

When I read here what Kate said in describing Andy, I just got furious all over again about that piece of crappy propaganda Chris had sent to me. How DARE people take the loss of someone like your brother so lightly that they distribute cheap, nasty diatribes for their political side using our soldiers as props!

:cry:

It must be beyond difficult for you at this time, and my thoughts are with you, and all the other families suffering such loss.

:hug:

[baldguy]

51. Supporting the troops means that you ask them to fight & die to protect & defend the Constitution

and for ALL of the people of the United States.

NOT just for the corporate oligarchs, their market share & profit margins and their puppets who happen to control the gov't at present - and who refuse to give the troops the arms & armor they need, who extend their tours indefinitely, who warehouse them in hell-hole VA hospitals when they come home after they're wounded and when these soldiers stand up & tell them truth, they're attacked for not being "patriotic".

[Balbus]

52. If this caused the "falling out" then you weren't good friends to begin with.

[EnviroBat]

56. Your friends not a 4th grader is she?

I found it insulting and childish. Pure drivel...

[in_cog_ni_to]

58. PURE RW propaganda piece. Plain and simple.

No one's judging the soldiers over there. NO ONE! They are ONLY doing what they have been ordered to do and MOST of them want to get the hell out of Iraq and come home, but the psycho in charge is ignoring THEM as he is US. That "poem" is nothing but RW propaganda to make anti-war advocates look bad. JMCPO and I don't blame you for being pissed about it.

[slowry]

59. Shitty propaganda. I expect better! n/t

[JHB]

61. Sounds a whole lot like this one... A Firefighter's Life

There's another variant circulating via e-amil chains (how much you want to bet this is the original?)

Found it here:
http://www.richpalmer.com/blog/archives/109
(he had it sent to him via e-mail. seems to be a music-and-safety blogger)



A Firefighter’s Life

You stay up for 16 hours
I’ve been up for 48 Straight
__________________________

You take a warm shower to help you wake up.
The rain in the middle of the highway keeps me awake.
__________________________

You complain of a “headache”, and call in sick.
I’m chilled to the bone, haven’t eaten all day, have the flu, and then run into a burning building
__________________________

You drink your coffee on your way to the mall.
I pump on a five years old’s chest on the way to the hospital.
__________________________

You make sure your cell phone is in your pocket.
I make sure the pass device on my pack is working.
__________________________

You talk trash about your “buddies” that aren’t with you.
I watch my buddy fall through the floor of a home.
__________________________

You walk down the beach, staring at all the pretty girls.
I walk down the highway looking for the motorcyclist’s missing limb.
_________________________

You complain about how hot it is.
I wear thirty pounds of gear in the middle of July and drag a body out of 1600 degree flames.
__________________________

You go out to lunch, and complain because the restaurant got your order wrong.
I haven’t seen a meal since dinner last night.
__________________________

Your maid makes your bed and washes your clothes.
I’ve worn the same stinking, wet, grungy clothes for the past 24 hours — no time for a shower.
__________________________

You go to the mall and get your hair redone.
I hold the hair of some college girl while she is puking in the back of the ambulance.
__________________________

You’re angry because your class ran 5 minutes over.
My shift ended 2 hours ago and I’m on for another 24 hours at a station doing it all over again.
__________________________

You call your girlfriend and set a date for tonight.
*****I call my girlfriend to tell her I made it back alive — then leave abrubtly for another emergency.******
__________________________

You yell and scream at the engine that just past you beacuse they slowed you down.
I’m driving the apparatus, going to cut somebody out of their car, only to find out that they are dead and that their daughter is barely alive.
__________________________

You roll your eyes as a baby cries.
I cry as I hear my new born cry in the hospital, but I was taking a drunk teenager in when my boy was born.
__________________________

You criticize your fire dept and say they’re never there quick enough anyway.
I blow the air horn while the person in front of me refuses to move while talking on their cell phone and doing their makeup.
__________________________

You hear the jokes about fallen firefighters and say they should have known better.
I feel the floor give way while I’m carrying a person from their bedroom and toss them on to the hard floor and fall into the unknown.
__________________________

You see the bright lights when you go by.
I see the broken bodies lying around the car.
__________________________

You are asked to go to the store by your parents. You don’t.
I look into buying a bullet proof vest because we’ve been shot at trying to save the shooting victims life.
__________________________

You stay at home and watch TV.
I take spare time to wash the trucks, restock the ambulance and maybe call my mother to tell her not to worry, I’ll be home the next night
__________________________

You crawl into your soft bed, with down pillows, and get comfortable.
I try to sleep on my bed but keep getting woken up by the buzzer. Ah, one hour of sleep, it should do until tommorow night.
__________________________

You sit there and judge him, saying the that its a waste of money to have them around.
Garbage truck workers make more than I do. But it is not for the money, it is for the people who dont appreciate what I do.
___________________________

If you support your local firefighters, repost this with a “A firefighters life”.

[JHB]

63. Just adding a note:

I have no real information on this, but based on previous examples of RW e-mail forgeries I'm willing to bet that this Firefigher poem is the original, and some freeperish type "repurposed" it, "weaponized" it, and politicized it into the version seen in the OP.

I've ceased to be amazed at this; I've only found it more and more disgusting.

(just wait: it'll be back in a few months, only allegedly sourced to some highly-respected military hero)

[Sequoia]

62. Replusive hype. I'd be upset too.

Bad writing anyway.

[Bridget Burke]

64. That's a popular bit of Glurge....

Results 1 - 10 of about 5,480 for "He sees the broken bodies lying around him".

www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22He+sees+the+broken+bodies+lying+around+him%22

A somewhat conservative co-worker just started wearing Red on Fridays. Once, that was to support The War on Drugs. Then, it meant "Support the Troops."

Her reason: To bring the troops home.

[youthere]

65. I'm sorry you got into a fight with your friend...

that always sucks. :hug:

[GaYellowDawg]

66. Just send this back.

_________________________
He spills his blood for his country.
You paint cheap political rhetoric with his blood.

[vickitulsa]

76. Believe it or not, I think I will include that, just like you wrote it,

in my next email to her.

She has written me again twice after my referring her to this thread in my detailed explanation to her of why that forward she sent me insulted and angered me.

Apparently she did actually come here and read most of the responses -- but then she said, in summary, I guess: "If I'm guilty of anything, it was poor judgment in who I sent it to."

Man, that kinda floored me! I had already apologized to her, but she came nowhere close to an apology to me at any point. She just keeps repeating the same things, defending herself, if not the piece of propaganda she forwarded that caused the "ruckus" in the first place.

She even said she "didn't give it a moment's thought in the first place" when she forwarded it! It was "just another forward"! Ewww ... like Burtworm, I hate it when people do that!

*Sigh* This isn't turning out like I hoped and expected it would, but I'm not going to sweat it anymore. Maybe I've been at DU too long to have much patience with people who think like Chris apparently does? Or perhaps that should be "people who DON'T think," because she really shows no signs of a real interest in thinking about this at all.

I don't know at this point, and I haven't decided yet if I will write anything back to her at all, since she closed her last note with, "I have a lot more important things to do" than discuss this situation" -- meaning our shattered friendship -- any more.

Crikey ... makes me feel like an idiot myself, for having thought I should spend this much time and effort to help her understand. For having believed in her for all these years as a genuine person who would not want to represent herself as she did by forwarding that piece to all her friends.

Goes to show ya, it's pretty easy to imagine that you know someone well when really you can be quite mistaken about some pretty important aspects of their personality.


Then again ... maybe as the days go by she will think about all this and what you smart folks here at DU wrote about it, and she could end up re-reading that pack of lies she sent me with a more open mind. Perhaps she'll realize -- or face -- the truth about it and let me know about that later.

She just might even be drawn to return to DU and see what else you interesting and witty folks have to say! :evilgrin: (I love how Du can get to people and pull them back to learn more.)

Well, you never know. I'll bet DU and its denizens have helped to wake up and "wise up" way more people than we even imagine!

[uppityperson]

86. excellent.

[road2000]

67. This is not new.

It's a retread from Vietnam. The original was written in a more rhyming format.

It was handed to me in the spring of 1966, in my junior year of high school. As with everything in those pre-technology days, hand-copied versions were circulated, but it seemed everyone had seen it and could quote it.

I only remember the opening two lines:

You sit at home and watch TV,
And drink a refreshing cold iced tea.

Execreble composition and meter aside, the "poem" presented the same Traitor You/Heroic Him comparisons, even down to ogling girls, and getting to hang out with one's buddies and drink a beer. I remember feeling resentful, even then, at the implication that people who didn't support the war (couched as "the troops") were traitors.

I don't remember any more about the piece, but when I see the same recycled bullshit again 40 years later, with a husband dead of Agent Orange and a son of draft age, I want to spit nails at the goons who perpetuate these bullshit guilt trips.

When will they ever learn, indeed?

[RapidCreek]

69. No you didn't take it wrong

If your friend wants to support our troops tell her they should come home and go to college, be with there familys and not be relegated to doing mercenary security work for KBR, Bechtel, Halliburton and a few others.

Share article the following article with her. It isn't somebodies opinion or a bunch of flowery bullshit....it's just the facts, cold and grim.

http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/51687

Peace and Inner Harmony,

RC
A 100% Disabled American Veteran

[Mz Pip]

70. Using the logic of the writer

a "Support the Troops" t-shirt reads:

SUPPORT THE TROOPS
KEEP THEM IN IRAQ

Perhaps you can have one made for your friend and tell her to wear it.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[ecstatic]

73. This "poem" could easily be flipped around

You put on your anti war/don't support the troop's shirt, and go
Meet up with your friends.
He still fights for your right to wear that shirt.

Revised:

You drive around in your gas guzzling pick up truck, with your Bush/Cheney sticker on one side and your support the troops ribbon on the other, while nobody in your family has enlisted or is even thinking about enlisting.
He still fights for your right to sport those stickers and not enlist.

:shrug:

It's a stupid, partisan piece of propoganda but the sad part is that they exploit the true struggles of the troops to make a false point.

[iverglas]

77. why is anybody even discussing this?

That thing is a right-wing piece of right-wing shit. Is there some question here?

If I got it, I do exactly what I did with the right-wing piece of right-wing shit I got from a distant cousin in Ohio last week: tell her to stop sending me right-wing pieces of (in that case vicious racist) right-wing shit, or I might not want to be her cousin anymore.

They're dishonest (in the case of hers, outright dishonest: it attributed the vicious racist right-wing shit to Robin Williams: http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=snopes+%22robin+williams%22+liberty&btnG=Google+Search&meta=; in the case of yours, dishonesty is embedded in the architecture) and they don't deserve any more bandwidth than they're already getting.

[vickitulsa]

85. Just wrapping this one up. In this case, having DU members discuss this

turned out to be a great help for me in presenting "my case" about that piece of crap propaganda drivel because she did actually visit this thread and read the replies.

There's no way in hell I could have ever convinced her that a LOT of people would have reacted as I did to receive something like that in their inbox -- and from a good friend who should know them better, to boot.

Apparently, she isn't going to change her stance, which surprises me, but it also tells me something I needed to know about a lady I thought had better sense and a helluva lot more consideration for her friends. She just keeps repeating that she should not have had to take my outraged rant that I fired back to her -- and even though I apologized for that, quite sincerely (I did get irate and let it show), she has not yet even hinted at feeling apologetic for having sent the damn thing to me in the first place.

All her replies just keep trying to justify what she did. She says now that she "didn't even give it a second thought in the first place," and thus doesn't want to talk about it any more. Says that ALL she meant by sending it was to make people think that maybe they shouldn't complain about their lives when our soldiers are facing such hardships.

She has an Army son, but he's near retirement age and was forced to work for five years as a recruiter these past years -- and hated it so much that he actually volunteered to go to Iraq if they'd just let him get out of that damned recruiting office!

He hated having to lie to young people, and snooker them and trick them and watch them sign up and then go die or get their arms blown off or lose an eye. It made him sick, made him feel guilty. As it should!

Turned out, just as Chris was getting all worked up about her one and only child, her little boy (who is now in his 40's) maybe having to go to Iraq, they did a medical exam on him and found out he had emphysema -- bad enough, I guess, to get him out of going to Iraq.

He had already rejoined his unit, however -- the 101st Airborne ("Screamin' Eagles") or else they put him in another RA (Regular Army) unit that wasn't going to Iraq. Chris was relieved, her son was kinda disappointed, to hear her tell it.

I honestly think he felt so bad about recruiting all those young kids to be sent into the meatgrinders in Afghanistan and Iraq, and then if wounded (or even if not), eventually to be screwed over and abandoned when they need help most by the pathetic VA system in this country.

He KNEW he was lying to them about the "first rate medical care for life" the recruiting office was promising, and all the other promises that are made in that office that are not kept. He actually knew some younsters that he recruited had been killed in Iraq. I think it eats at his conscience, though he never wanted to be a recruiter at all. It gave him ulcers and made him smoke more (hence the emphysema?), and nearly destroyed his marriage to boot.

Chris also has two nephews that have done tours of duty in the ME recently, if they're not there now.

I understand HER desire to see the troops respected and treated better, but she also knows just how much I have always been a vet supporter ... I've even helped many of the Nam vets fight the VA to get their disability ratings and compensation for service-related health problems.

Perhaps she felt further "attacked" by some of the replies in this thread, but I wanted her to see just how obvious it was to thinking people that the "poem" she sent me was a direct attack on whoever received it -- or could easily be seen as such.

If she can't figure it out by now, I'm done with trying to reason with her. I'm VERY disappointed that she hasn't apologized but only tried to justify her actions and insists the piece isn't an attack in itself.

I'm also saving this thread to show to anyone else who ever tries to put me in a box they think anti-war people belong in -- namely all the negative character traits listed in that propaganda piece Christina sent me. I'm tired of having to repeat my stand over and over to others who don't get it.

So I very much appreciate everyone here who took the time to lay it out very plainly for the dense or the deluded.


I hear ya about telling others to stop sending you shit like that -- and I did tell her that, in my first hot reply to receiving it. Made it very plain that I do NOT want to receive any more right wing juvenile barbs like that contained and also have mentioned subsequently that she was doing the fascists' job for them by having passed it on to a lot of other people. Could be that's part of why she keeps defending her actions and won't apologize, but it doesn't wash with me.

I told her this wasn't just an argument over "politics" -- that it was a "big deal" to me to have her think not only I but ANYONE judges the troops or wears "don't support the troops t-shirts," or any other of those nonsensical claims. I couldn't just ignore the offensive shit that was in that garbage bit of writing she sent me.

Here we are trying like hell to get our country back from the criminals who are destroying it piece by piece, and she sends me trash like that?? I don't think so....

If I've lost a friend over this, then as some pointed out here, she wasn't that close a friend in the first place. She's done nice things for me in the past and been supportive (as I have been to her many times) when I was depressed or struggling. She even got her SoldierMoms group to send me a care package like they send to soldier's wives to lift their spirits, and it did the job.

Hard to fathom how someone that caring can also be so rudely insulting in mailing out offensive "literature" without thinking about its impact.

Bet she doesn't send me anything anymore, but that's okay too. I'm sick and tired of getting bullshit forwards that people don't even look at carefully before spamming them out to everyone in their damned address list!

[spoony]

88. It's sad that she has refused to apologise

For one thing it shows you her ideological stubborness, but more than that she should at LEAST realise she hurt a friend and try to make amends for THAT if nothing else. I'm sorry this happened to you.

[iverglas]

89. and I may have lost a cousin

I'd already asked her nicely to stop sending me the god crap. And I figured she knew what I thought about the other stuff, pretty much, when she google-chatted me on your last election night and I congratulated her on the Ohio Democrat wins ... and she replied by (I kid you not) blaming Bill Clinton, for, oh, everything.

Amazingly, her grandfather and mother (as a young adult) only immigrated from the UK post-WWII. Already, she's a full-blown sheep.

Anyhow, what I wanted to say was: did you see Law & Order last night? That's one that your friend needs to see, and it might even convince her that you have shared concerns. The Hollywood liberals (Law & Order has decided it's safe to be liberal again this year, after lo these years of right-wing pandering), devoting an entire show to the appalling conditions in veterans' hospitals and the government's attempts to cover them up. (Stories ripped from the headlines, y'know.)

... Unfortunately, unlike some prime-time shows, NBC doesn't offer it on line:
http://www.nbc.com/Law_&_Order/

Hmm, the one that's listed on the schedule for tonight at 10 pm is one from January -- the one I missed first time around this year, cool. Anyhow, last night's should roll around again in rerun; watch for it, if you and/or she missed it, and tape it for her.


Just to commiserate, here's the one I got. (The attribution to Robin Williams is a great big fat lie; he wrote only the two-line joke at the end, and the hilarious thing is that all these idiots don't get that he's calling them racist bigots.) I'm lucky that the few friends/family I communicate with by email don't have the "forward" response; I never get this kind of crud, normally. This one turned my stomach. Trust your instincts!

I got to remind my charming cousin that I was a citizen of one of those "fair weather friends" (referred to in the bilge below) ... the fair-weather friend that took all the planes diverted from US airspace on Sept 11, 2001 ... and one of the people who offered to open my home to as many stranded US citizens as I could house (they didn't need me, because planes were being diverted *away* from where I am, but hey.) And I don't like being badmouthed, any more than you liked how you were portrayed in your friend's forwarded screed!

Quoted piece of vicious racist right-wing shit follows. ;)

You gotta love Robin Williams... Even if he's nuts! Leave it to Robin Williams to come up with the perfect plan. What we need now is for our UN Ambassador to stand up and repeat this message.

Robin Williams' plan...(Hard to argue with this logic!)

"I see a lot of people yelling for peace but I have not heard of a plan for peace. So, here's one plan."

1) "The US will apologize to the world for our "interference" in their affairs, past & present. You know, Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Tojo, Noriega, Milosevic, Hussein, and the rest of those "good ole boys", we will never "interfere" again.

2) We will withdraw our troops from all over the world, starting with Germany, South Korea, the Middle East, and the Philippines. They don't want us there. We would station troops at our borders. No one allowed sneaking through holes in the fence.

3) All illegal aliens have 90 days to get their affairs together and leave. We'll give them a free trip home. After 90 days the remainder will be gathered up and deported immediately, regardless of whom or where they are. They're illegal!!! France will welcome them.

4) All future visitors will be thoroughly checked and limited to 90 days unless given a special permit!!!! No one from a terrorist nation will be allowed in. If you don't like it there, change it yourself and don't hide here. Asylum would never be available to anyone. We don't need any more cab drivers or 7-11 cashiers.

5) No foreign "students" over age 21. The older ones are the bombers. If they don't attend classes, they get a "D" and it's back home baby.

6) The US will make a strong effort to become self-sufficient energy wise. This will include developing nonpolluting sources of energy but will require a temporary drilling of oil in the Alaskan wilderness. The caribou will have to cope for a while.

7) Offer Saudi Arabia and other oil producing countries $10 a barrel for their oil. If they don't like it, we go someplace else. They can go somewhere else to sell their production. (About a week of the wells filling up the storage sites would be enough.)

8) If there is a famine or other natural catastrophe in the world, we will not "interfere." They can pray to Allah or whomever, for seeds, rain, cement or whatever they need. Besides most of what we give them is stolen or given to the army. The people who need it most get very little, if anything.

9) Ship the UN Headquarters to an isolated island someplace. We don't need the spies and fair weather friends here. Besides, the building would make a good homeless shelter or lockup for illegal aliens.

10) All Americans must go to charm and beauty school. That way, no one can call us "Ugly Americans" any longer. The Language we speak is ENGLISH...learn it...or LEAVE...Now, isn't that a winner of a plan?

"The Statue of Liberty is no longer saying "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses." She's got a baseball bat and she's yelling, 'you want a piece of me?' "


If you agree with the above forward it to friends...If not, and I would be amazed, DELETE it!!

Or send it back. ;)

[vickitulsa]

95. Jumpin' Jehosephat! What a load of provocative bullcaca!

It's pretty easy to see that only that last joke was something of Robin's -- could almost hear him delivering it, in fact! :rofl:

But the rest of it ... lord have mercy. Makes ya wonder what on earth is going on in people's lives that they have the time and put out the effort to compile shit like that.

I didn't see the Law & Order episode you mentioned -- have been watching the NBA playoffs. :evigrin:

But I do often watch that show since I started catching some of the reruns in the daytime on TNT. They really do "rip stories from the headlines," as some other dramatic series are doing these days. And usually I think they give potent topics a pretty fair airing.

Sounds like they're genuinely ready to tackle the tough stuff now, if they did one on the deplorable conditions in VA hospitals! I'm all for the writers and producers of serious dramas serving up their treatments of significant political issues.

Even the ones that are "leaning right" at least at times, such as that frequently silly "24" and maybe a couple of others, can contribute to the Great Awakening we need in this country (which is already underway) by showing just how something like torture can in rare cases seem like the right thing to do, but really employing it only sets a precedent for more torture for less justifiable reasons down the line.

I swear, I watched "24" for one season, the 3rd one I think, and I couldn't even get interested in what they were going to offer next. That season hardly had a single episode that did NOT involve torture! Baffles me how viewers could consider Jack Bauer to be a masterful good-guy operator when he resorts to torture at the drop of a hat.

I've seen series such as "NCIS" and the various Law & Order and CSI originals and clones do good work in presenting hard-hitting critiques of "how things are" in this country under this administration, and it seems to be happening more all the time.

And remember that episode of "Without A Trace" where the medical doctor from Lebanon or some Arab country was killed by the feds just as the young FBI guy was getting him to put down his pistol? The fella's brother had planted a bomb, and this guy was just trying to clear the building before it went off, but since he was distraught and didn't immediately obey the order to drop the weapon, Jack Malone gave the nod for the HRT team's sharpshooter to take him out.

I also recall an episode of Law & Order (the original) when Fontana extracted a confession from a child molester/abductor and the location of the last child he'd taken and hidden away by dunking the suspect's face into his toilet bowl repeatedly. The writers dealt with the issue of "when is torture okay -- or is it ever?" very well, I thought.

If Americans are going to watch teevee so much -- and we know we are -- then I believe it's a good thing when they're offered some intelligent, fair-handed coverage of current issues. Give us all sides of an important issue; we can sort it out!

Ditto with the movies. The supposedly "liberal" Hollywood machine was way-late in presenting the opposition opinion and some plain old truth about the sorts of things this criminal administration has done from Day One of its taking the office they stole. They have a lot of catching up to do!

Nice thing about it is, the shit is hitting the fan in a big way all at once, now that, as you noted, it's more "fashionable" to serve up the liberal viewpoint! At the same time we're getting similar types of scripts from literally dozens of dramatic series -- and some good documentaries or news "specials," too. That's bound to have an effect on the psyches of viewers, as it becomes so obvious that no one is swallowing the kool-aid anymore.

Who wants to be the last one on their block to peel the "W" sticker off their car?

Say, I just saw an advert on CBS -- Robin Williams, promoting an upcoming special celebrating Walter Cronkite's 90th birthday! Maybe he can slip in a couple of zingers to refute that nasty, lying email attributed to him!

The man has a brilliant comedic mind; I feel sure he can set the record straight in short order if he gets a chance.

As for your cousin, that's a sad situation for you. We don't get to choose our relatives; but if they want to disown us because of our righteous views that take their pet issues (and them) to task, well, sometimes ya just gotta bite the bullet, I figure, and refuse to back down or put up with their endless delusional BS.

Hey, I just noticed our PBS station is airing All the President's Men tonight! It's just getting to the good parts, looks like. Wonder who decided this would be a good time to run THAT one?!

Lordy, Redford and Hoffman look about 20 years old in this classic gem! And Jason Robards was still looking mighty handsome and even a bit sexy as Ben Bradley! ;)

Thanks for your input on this thread, iverglas. I've enjoyed the exchange. :hi:

[Swamp Rat]

92. Maybe she can join us here and hopefully learn about the reasons why we are in such a mess in the ME

in the first place. Maybe she will learn that the current administration is nothing but a 2-bit cabal of thugs and crooks, who are killing humans in the name of profit.

I hope she wakes up and joins the rest of America (a large majority) in ousting the criminal Bush administration in order to bring home our troops!

[silverojo]

80. You should've added this stanza

You're pursuing a medical career to end suffering
He thinks it's OK to torture people under "certain circumstances"

I'll bet that would've made the Freepers' heads explode! :evilgrin:

BTW, you were totally in the right. Freeps just think it's their right to ram their black-and-white beliefs down everyone's throats. You understand there are shades of gray.

[Pushed To The Left]

81. It seems very insulting to whoever is reading it. It accuses the reader of a lot of negative

character traits. I find it offensive. I don't like the way that it treats people who oppose the Iraq war as being against the troops, making fun of the troops, etc. Some of the most passionate, hardcore anti-war people I've met are Veterans! If anything, the anti-war people care about the troops more than the pro-war people do. They want them to come home safely and don't want them to put their lives on the line unnecessarily.

[CJCRANE]

82. Support The Troops

Bring Them Home

[LynnTheDem]

83. FACT; the MAJORITY of US troops DO NOT SUPPORT bush's war on Iraq,

DO NOT SUPPORT bush's "mission", DO NOT SUPPORT bush's escalation.

Supporting the troops DOES NOT mean supporting what the troops themselves DO NOT support.

[LynnTheDem]

84. nt

[tjwash]

87. The government has ordered and instructed you on how to properly support the troops.

So you must obey.

That's all you need to know.

/freeptard mode

[Swamp Rat]

91. Hey vickitulsa!

:hug:

I could only read 1 1/2 stanzas before becoming disgusted.

Just ignore the email, and subsequent ones from "uninvited guests." Really, it is a waste of time. I have family who send me that crap occasionally, but I just delete it without even reading it. However, when my aunt recently sent me photos of my great grandmother, for example, I thanked her vociferously and praised her email. She hasn't sent me any of those rt wing propaganda emails in a long time. I also think the fact that her grandson may get shipped back to Iraq soon may have something to do with her recent behavior. ;)

[vickitulsa]

96. Thanks for posting, Swamp Rat -- always good to get your input.

Ya know, I usually do just ignore such crappola when it happens to arrive in my inbox, which is seldom because I don't have contacts who normally do that sort of thing.

Do have one friend, this one IRL and for over 20 years one of my best pals (I played piano at her wedding), who is (as my brother says) "Christ-bit," and she forwards stuff once in a rare while that I really want to argue with her about.

But I know she would just be hurt and baffled, so I simply delete it, usually without even reading it. The ones from her that piss me off most are from that bonkers group called ... something about "American Family Values" and she expects me to read garbage that only the most rabid believers of the fundamentalist sort could possibly ingest without gagging. They have the most bizarre, mindless, and vicious campaigns!

That friend, Kathy, remembers me from my Christian years long ago, which is okay -- I'm not anti-Christian now, just don't hold with the brand of it that she follows. "Follows" is the right word for it, too, since this otherwise bright lady before her "born-again experience" now seems to have put her brain and common sense away as she follows whatever her preacher or other religious leaders tell her.

She was, of course, compliant with their wishes when she voted in 2000 and 2004, too, and she has always known what I think of GWB. So you'd think she would avoid "going there" when it comes to related political issues, but does she? Nooooo!

I've noticed she doesn't forward that stuff to me lately, so maybe my ignoring her past attempts got the message through to her.

Kathy I don't have much hope for as far as wising up and remembering how good her brain was in her pre-fundie days. But Christina, well, I think she just might get back to me in a week or two and admit she was wrong about that RW "poem" she forwarded "without a second thought."

It's even possible she will return to DU -- it's the first time I've ever tried to get her over here because I know politics are not highest on her agenda of life interests.

The weirdest thing about this whole episode is that she says she loathes Bu$h and what he and his cohorts in crime are doing to our country! We've even talked about "his" wars, and she claims she hates it that our troops are still over there being targets and harming innocents.

She even told me in her last email yesterday that she is "liking Obama" and has signed on to some campaign org for him!

So why, I wonder, would she send out that RW drivel, endorsing it by doing so, imo, indicating she thinks we should all support "the mission" in order to support the troops??

I don't get it, and I told her I don't get it. We'll see what happens next, I guess, but I haven't replied to her last email yet and probably won't. The way she signed off that time, it didn't seem like there was much left to say.

Maybe one day down the road we'll look back on this episode as "our big misunderstanding" and be able to smile about it. (I sure have a stubborn optimistic streak, don't I? ;))

[CJCRANE]

97. It seems like she might come round

to your way of thinking....

In fact (unless she does something similar again) I would advise you to ignore this "big misunderstanding" and act as if it had never happened - that way you'll keep your friend and she'll keep her pride.

(I have a friend who was very hawkish and pro-Bush foreign policy a couple of years ago but now claims that he's always thought Bush was an idiot. I let it slide and don't point out to him that I was right about Bush from the beginning and he wasn't).

[tabasco]

93. Oh for God's sake ..

I'm a combat vet. Spent ten years in the infantry, and this poem makes me

:puke:

[deutsey]

94. This kind of tripe is supposed to lead one to think:

"Gosh, I should just shut up about any criticisms I have about Iraq."

The main problem here is that "he" is in Iraq for all the wrong reasons propagated by the Bush junta. It is not undermining anything to question why our troops are even in this fucked up situation. In fact, it is PATRIOTISM in the truest American sense, imo, to question the motivations behind sending our fellow citizens into a war that only profits a handful of nefarious assholes.

[Mountainman]

98. People make this shit up to support themselves not the troops.

This stuff is made up by right wingers to support their attacks on the left. If they really supported the troops they would bring them home.

This is nothing more than self serving bull shit,

[sam sarrha]

99. it is called 'cognitive dissonance', they have believe its for something or theyd die of hate of Bu$...

it is a protective mechanism.. they would rather believe it was for something.. if it was for nothing or just to make the 'Rich as rich as they can be' they would implode with disgust and hate which they fear could do nothing.. they dont want be hopeless about their children suffering in HELL and dying for nothing so Fascist psychopathic NeoCons can get richer than god and have us pay their taxes.. and grind up our children..

i have to have compassion for her suffering..and all like her as much as i dislike what they do:cry:

[lonestarnot]

100. I washed my hands of a thirty year slime ball for the same reasons

I was worried about it for about oh 5 minutes and then I was relieved I didn't have to put up with that shit any longer. Maybe your fall out will be as successful as mine! :toast: Good riddens to bad rubbish.

[Matsubara]

101. Why is this person considered a "friend"?

I personally don't feel that I owe the troops support of any kind.

I did not ask them to illegally invade and loot Iraq for Bushco, or to undergo any of the hardships they may be having.

If they were naive enough to join up after 9-11, foolishly thinking that Bush would respond to that attack in a responsible, logical, moral way, then I feel sorry for them, but why the hell should I *support* their participation in a fool's errand?

And I'm f-ing sick and tired of people telling me that the troops illegally occupying Iraq are somehow paying for my freedom of speech.

My freedom of speech is guaranteed by the Constitution, which was made possible by the efforts of soldiers in The Revolutionary War, the Civil War, and World Wars 1 & 2.

The subsequent wars were not about protecting the United States, but about imposing American ideology and business interests upon unwilling foreign lands.

STOP insisting that I honor people for participating in immoral military adventures!

The hundreds of US soldiers who have claimed conscientious objector status in these recent "wars" are deserving of our praise far more than the rest, IMO.