Why is abortion such an issue in the U.S?

[mudesi]

I live in Canada. We don't have an abortion law. At all. Abortion is completely legal, without restriction, on demand, no questions asked, wham bam thank you ma'am.

I bring this up because I'm watching CNN here (Paula Zahn Now) and it seems like for some odd reason, abortion is such a wedge issue for Americans that they will allow it to affect their vote.

We have conservatives here. I've met them. I know one who wants all abortions to be illegal because he is a strict Roman Catholic. Another one I know is a women who supports abortion only in the case of a mother's life being in danger. These two people have family members who also share their views. A coworker of mine is also emphatically anti abortion. She and her husband have marched in protest to that effect.

Yet when I talk to these people about politics, abortion doesn't come up. We talk about health care and education, the environment (lately becoming a big issue here), gas taxes, the war in Afghanistan, the corruption of the previous Liberal government and why they needed to be voted out because of it, the idiocy of the current Conservative government and why they need to be voted out, too. Abortion is a side issue that rarely gets any play here. I reiterate that we don't even have a law with the word "abortion" written on it.

Certainly there are people here who would vote strictly on the abortion issue, but I haven't met them. The strict Roman Catholic voted for the Liberal Party in the last election. His reason was because he is a teacher, and the Liberals are more apt to fund education and reduce his workload. (This despite that the federal Libearls don't really have any say in the matter, as education is a provincial responsibility. But he votes Liberal across the board). As a result of his vote, he knows nothing will be done about abortion, yet his economic self interests trumped that.

The woman who only supports abortion in the case of a mother's life being in danger votes for the NDP. (The NDP are socialist liberals, more to the left that The Liberal Party). She has a low income, and the NDP, who are absolutely 100% pro-choice without exception, represent her economic self interests.

My coworker and her husband, who are vehemently opposed to abortion, have a Liberal MP who is opposed to abortion, but they voted in the last election for the Conservative candidate who is in favor of it! They voted against the Liberal who is opposed to abortion simply because the Liberal Party had a scandal prior to the last election and they needed a time out. Even though these two have marched against abortion, even though they would love nothing more than to see a law passed that at the very least, bans abortion in the third trimester, they decided that another issue (government corruption) was far more important.

What is it about abortion that causes it to be such a hot button issue in America? Is it the media? I may have the wrong perception here because I'm getting it from CNN and other American "news" sources that constantly bring it up. Every single American election seems to revolve around abortion. During the debates it's always a question. Giuliani can't win the nomination because of his views on abortion. Romney's flip flop on abortion is suspect. And on and on.

In abortion threads on DU, I have stated my view that people ought to at least be intellectually honest. (For example the "fetus = parasite" line doesn't fly. Sorry.) But it's hardly an emotional issue for me. Maybe because I'm male, and more likely because I don't live in a country where it is so contentious. Anyway I don't really know the purpose of this particular diatribe. I suppose I'm feeling verbose this lonely Friday evening.

Good night.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

1. Sex is the issue here, not abortion.

In our prurient society, naughty ladies must be punished with childbirth for unforgivable sin of enjoying sex rather than seeking to add to the population.

[JerseygirlCT]

131. I think a useful wedge issue is the issue here, not even sex

sex is just the method. Behind that is a technique that's proven its worth to the GOP in dividing the electorate. Even when they lose with it, they win, as it then revs up their fundraising machine.

[susanna]

180. In other words,

our Puritan past is showing. :shrug:

[asthmaticeog]

2. Jesus.

[pnwmom]

3. Catholics used to be a strong Democratic constituency, but Rove

and other Republicans have found a way to break off a significant group based on this issue alone, and they've had the help of some of the Bishops in doing it. I don't know why the Bishops here are allowing themselves to be used this way, and not in Canada, where there must be at least as many Catholics.

Why do you think none of the Bishops in Canada are threatening to withhold Communion from candidates who aren't pro-life? That's an interesting question, particularly in light of Ratzinger's comments during his recent visit to Brazil.

[illinoisprogressive]

4. Because Americans are prigs. That is why they love fantasies and sex scandals.

[Solly Mack]

5. cuz it's about control of women

[Jim Warren]

20. That's my first answer

You got to it first.

[PDJane]

6. In my experience......

And I'm a fellow Canadian with more friends stateside than I can really account for, it's a religious issue. Yeah, we have seriously religious types here, but very few of them are as rabid as the bunch stateside.

My last discussion on this was with an acquaintance in Texas...who just happens to be a very well-educated mormon woman (yes, that's an oddity in itself)...who got stuck completely on the "thou shalt not kill" thing. Oddly, that didn't apply for the death penalty, when it was an eye for an eye.

If you take the Torah, the Bible or the Koran as literal truth, then you will run into this attitude, because it has nothing to do with logic or enlightened self-interest. It has to do with the interpretation of the bible that your clergyperson uses, nothing less and nothing more.

[Cha]

31. THey are so confused..those who

are rabidly against any kind of abortion and still support state sponsored killings and the whole bomb Iraq for lies and kill hundreds of thousands of people, including men, women, children, babies and fetuses.

Gawd Damn Hypocrites.

[and-justice-for-all]

7. Because NeoConservative, overly religious zealots

are control freaks and dominist.

[Warpy]

8. Ronald fucking Reagan

You remember that fool up there, don't you?

In 1980, afraid that Nixon's southern strategy of appealing to the bigots was running out of steam after all the years of getting used to black folks being a able to eat a piece of pie at a lunch counter, decided he needed a new voting bloc. He realized that fundamentalist Christians were his best bet and insisted that antiabortion policies become a permanent plank in the GOP party platform. In effect, he threw half this country under the bus in order to garner enough lunatic votes to get him into office.

Sadly, it worked.

Without Reagan turning it into a political football, chances are we'd have a few people outside Planned Parenthood thumbing their beads and looking miserable, but the majority would have gotten as used to it as they did those black folks sitting at the lunch counter.

[Clark2008]

10. It ran out of steam again.

The South, with the exception of Virginia and South Carolina, voted for Clinton a few years later.

[omega minimo]

12. & in the 80's religious bigots started assassinating women & doctors in the name of "Life"

...... so the answer to OP's question is "INSANITY"




(drafting off your excellent comment, Warpy). Reportedly, Reagan was pro-Choice as Governor of California and signed a very progressive bill in the 70's, expressing that he hoped it would help a very difficult situation..........

[eridani]

198. Speaking of Reagan--

--who else remembers that he was the governor of California that signed legal abortion into law well before Roe v. Wade? That makes his purely political motives pretty plain.

[undeterred]

9. I think its because Right Wing Churches in America started telling people

how to vote. And not how to vote as an intelligent Christian who considers things like economic justice and feeding the poor, taking care of orphans and widows, but on a single issue which really isn't even addressed in the Bible.

So for people who like voting made simple, there's only one issue: abortion or "pro-life".

And it doesn't occur to them that the same party that opposes abortion is more likely to take the country to war or arm the populace or support the death penalty or not care if people die from poverty or lack of health insurance.

Its called "Leave Your Brain at the Door" Religion.

[Postman]

11. If the "Cons" weren't talking about abortion then we'd have to tackle real issues...

The difference is that in Canada you have an educated electorate, we don't.

In Canada you're probably more politically astute, we aren't.

[omega minimo]

14. Eventually progressives have to face that women's rights are central to all other "real" issues

:hi:

[Postman]

17. I stand corrected.

sorry, I didn't mean it wasn't a "real" issue.

[omega minimo]

24. Understood. And in the context of the OP -- as you say "politically astute"

may mean that there is a basic awareness/acceptance of other citizens' right to health and privacy regarding their own bodies.


:thumbsup:

[madfloridian]

13. They needed wedge issues.

Women and gays made good targets in the name of God.

[porphyrian]

74. Exactly. Divide the enemy and let them fight themselves. - n/t

[omega minimo]

15. bigotry

[Ilsa]

16. My observation was that the right wingers didn't care until

there weren't enough white babies to adopt by ex-drug-using religious women wanting to fulfill their calling as a "Christian" woman raising kids the way the church tells them to.

[azurnoir]

28. Thank you

I think you are absolutely correct (on all accounts). Women of color in the US tend not to have abortions, whether or not this is because of the "Alabama appendectomy" I don't know for sure.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

18. Since you live in Canada, you are not surrounded by the religiously insane.

So I realize how hard it must be for you to relate to this controversy. But in order for you to comprehend it better, I hereby offer to FedEx to you as many fundamentalist lunatics and other assorted God-botherers as you need to immerse yourself in this issue, which will be the population of several large states. And please feel free to keep them, as our gift to you.

[PDJane]

62. What a generous offer.

I'm sure that you'll understand if I tell you that's just too impossibly generous, and that there's no real place to put them here where they'll feel at home.

Truly.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

19. 2 reasons:

1. It is a very effective wedge issue, used to leverage votes from people and to make lots of money.

2. In the US, there is no shortage of people who worry, at length, about what others might be doing with their genitalia, since they don't do much of anything with their own.

[Jim Warren]

21. Haha .....#2

"A Puritan is someone who is desperately afraid that, somewhere, someone might be having a good time." --H L Mencken

[Warren DeMontague]

54. Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding!

We Have a WINNAH!

[uppityperson]

77. Choice: legal affordable abortion or illegal/unsafe/expensive one

Control. Who gets to control what choice a woman may make.

[Madspirit]

22. We are a misogynistic culture

We have fundamentalist nut-cases ruling our country right now. You've noticed the Theocrat in the White House? It's about control of women. The more Right Wing the Religionists, the more they want to control "their" women and the more they think they actually have a right to make other people's decisions for them.

...and we actually usually only say "it's a parasite" after we are FED UP TO OUR FUCKING EYEBROWS with the "IT'S A BABY YOU KILLERS" arguments. Right-to-Lifers can dish it out with their perverted interests in pictures of aborted fetuses they've Photoshopped to look as gross and heartrending as possible and other emotional CRAPOLA but they sure can't take it when it comes back on them. Then they whine about our choices of words and act all aghast and shocked I tell you...shocked...and they talk about all the little soft powdered pink-cheeked raspberry lipped cooing and dimpled...almost babies...that we are trying to MURDER. So a little "parasite" now and then... Handle it.

It should be like it is in Canada but the people I'm referring to think they are The Deciders For Everyone because that's the underlying fascistic American personality. "I am going to take my gun and force everyone to be just like me 'cause I'm a 'Markin and I'm right and everyone else is wrong and I will shoot their knees off because I can't STAND differences..." ...and yet, we...MY KIND...the awful horrid "parasite" sayers...have NEVER forced a single woman to have an abortion. The "forcing" only goes one way, ya know? I only want the right to control my own body. I don't want to control yours. The anti-choice people want to control EVERYONE.
Lee

[Forkboy]

41. Wouldn't it be nice if instead of Sherman and Peabody's Wayback Machine...

..we had a Wayahead Machine? Like,say,to a time when knuckledraggers AREN'T trying to run your body?

[Screwfly]

23. Yes, abortion is quite the cause with the American street

The anti-abortion crowd has some kind of ghetto mental towards women, with bubba types figuring they should have control over their wimmin if nothing else.

[dflprincess]

25. It's a diversion

Get the masses frothing at the mouth over abortion and they won't notice their pockets are being picked and the their rights taken away.

[BlooInBloo]

26. Religion.

[Sukie1941]

27. To quote my 93-yr-old mother......

Why is abortion such an issue in the U.S.?

"Men can't stand the idea that a woman doesn't want to carry their seed."

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

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[BlueIris]

120. "Men can't stand the idea that a woman doesn't want to carry their seed."

I really agree with your grandmother.

So many men I've met view women as little more than a receptacle for their rank semen. It enrages them that they can't force a woman to ruin her body, sexual functioning and even her entire life for the sake of "their" ego spawn. Men don't want us to have medical privacy, medical choice or human rights because the thought of no longer having the ultimate say in whether we live or die makes them tremble in their tiny little underpants. Plus, you know, without control over our bodies we can't fully compete with them economically or be equal partners in relationships and marriages. Not having power over them in those areas scares the shit out of them, too.

But mostly, I believe your grandmother is correct: It frustrates men not to be able to use women (even if it puts a woman's health and life in jeopardy) to bear "their" children.

[Skittles]

205. correct

look at the DC madam scandal - tons of conservatives think nothing of using a woman as a semen receptacle but balk at any suggestion that women have the right to make their own decisions

[susanna]

182. Wow - that sums it up, don't it? n/t

[hfojvt]

29. clearly nobody knows

Is it religion, as a plurality on this thread seem to think?
Only 16% of Canadians claim to have no religion. For the US that number is 15%. Doesn't seem like a huge difference to me. Are we a misogynistic society? Maybe. But why should we be more so than Canada? Catholics seem to be strongly anti-abortion in the US, but Canada is 46% Catholic to 22% for the US.

I think a key is the way it was done. In Canada abortion was made legal legislatively in 1969. In 1973 it was done by SCOTUS, and the people who lost, who were against it, feel like they did not even get a voice. Thus, they have made it an issue.

Another key is our two party system and Canada's lack thereof. It makes for an easy dichotomy. Thus we have a pro-abortion party and an anti-abortion party. No other issue seems to be aligned this way, and it makes it an issue for the base of both parties.

[alarimer]

33. I think Canada lacks our particular strain of virulent fundamentalism

They are a pox, a disease if you will, on this nation. They have gained power through subterfuge and by taking advantage of a pretty ignorant part of the population.

[eridani]

199. Haven't French Canadians (most of the Catholics) done a complete turnaround?

I heard that from mostly rural huge families, they've switched to urban families that are now actually smaller than the overall Canadian average.

[joshcryer]

30. In my experience it isn't actually a real issue to most Americans.

In my travels I have met many types, from the South to the North from the East to the West. Abortion has maybe twice in my 10-15 years of regular travel ever come up in conversation. Twice.

Now, politicians will use the "abortion issue" but merely to play to their hard wing Christian Base. That 29% who doesn't vote any other way but GOP, who hate any "morally wrong" issue (even though their morals are always contridicting themselves and in constant question). Those politicians create this ideal that most people could give a crap less about, and then they get voted into power, and try to push off their heavily minority opinion off on the rest of the population.

On the internet it's a different story, of course. ALL issues have their ardent 'followers' to the point of insanity. Abortion, guns, rape, circumcision, Iraq, GWB, whatever, if you mention certain topics there are a contengent of people who argue rabidly over the simplist things.

[madeline_con]

32. Read up on the Dominionists at ...

www.yuricareport.com

It explains it all in detail. :hi:

[in_cog_ni_to]

34. Because the RW religious wacko nut job freaks want to stick their noses in everyone's

business. They hate Gays too. If they had their way, we'd be living in a Theocracy. They have a choke hold on the repuke party. The RWers can't win without the RW religious wacko nut job vote so the repukes have let the religious wackos take over their party. Now they're SCREWED because the RW religious wacko nut jobs are the ONLY people supporting the repuke party....which means they are TOAST in '08 because all they have left is that 'base' and that's only about 30% of the repuke's voters.

[mitchum]

35. The repubs had to come up with a ruse in order to get working class...

and middle class people to vote for the greedy bastards

[lildreamer316]

37. A way for some people in organized religions to hold onto power.

(THIS IS NOT AN ATTACK ON CHRISTIANS!!!)

Not all are like that; but there are many in the hierarchy who like to use it as a power tool.
Bottom line.

[BlueIris]

38. With the caveat that I don't know what part of Canada you live in...

I've heard of many places in Our Neighbor to the North where it is not only not at all easy for a woman to safely end a pregnancy, but not but not without extraordinary pain and stigma. "(W)ham bam thank you ma'am," indeed (and it says a lot about you that you would characterize the often extremely difficult process a woman goes through if she wants or needs an abortion in those callous terms).

Some of the worst stories I've encountered about the experiences women have had with abortion procedures have been from Canadian women. Abortions intentionally performed without any form of anesthesia or pain relief by misogynist doctors who wanted to punish women for making that choice, women abandoned afterward without adequate instructions regarding aftercare to prevent infection, permanent organ damage or death, etc. Not that America has any kind of a better track record when it comes to caring for women who want or need abortions. At all. The American alternative brutalizes and neglects women just as inexcusably. But your portrayal of Canada as a misogyny-free zone for women who need to end pregnancy doesn't match up with what I've heard.

[Name removed]

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[Forkboy]

43. A little bit of a broad brush but your overall point is totally correct.

And sadly not limited to just America.

[Name removed]

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[Warren DeMontague]

55. Really. So there are no anti-choice women in America, then.

And no pro-choice men.

That's funny. When I hauled my ass out to DC in April of '04 for the big march, the lines didn't really seem to break on gender.

[Bluebear]

40. Jesus.

[Name removed]

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[Bluebear]

46. Holy Toledo!

>>What's the matter, sweetie? Does it freak you out that your mommy might have wanted to abort you? Or that someday, a woman might not want to squeeze out a little ego-boosting copy of you? I know it's hard, man, but women actually are people, too. We have the right to control our bodies in the same fashion that you do, and neither we, nor our bodies, exist to serve, be blatantly used, or completely destroyed by you. It's a tough concept to wrap your head around, I know, especially in a country where men are trained from childhood to see women as little more than faceless semen buckets, but you all should start working on that. Misogyny kills, and your participation in that killing, actively or passively, is going to come back to bite you in the testicles eventually--in this life, or the next.<<



Actually I was answering the question. Why abortion is such an issue in the US. Answer: Jesus. As in fundy Christians.

But I hope that post was cathartic for you and you feel better for berating me.

PS You won't find anyone who will more stridently fight for a woman's right to choose, since you obviously don't 'know' me here. But you sure told me! Here's one of my favorite original threads, just so you don't think ALL American men aim to murder, humiliate and dehumanize women:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=602934

[Madspirit]

63. Ahhh...now Bluebear

...and Bluebear is one of the most progressive supportive men, along with Forkboy, I know. He also always has my back. You need to get to know people before you ATTACK. Forkboy and Bluebear are two of the most feminist-supporting, pro-choice, pro-gay, pro-women, progressive, etc. men you could ever hope to meet. What is stuck up this person's posterior end?
Lee

[Bluebear]

81. Love you madly XOXO

[Madspirit]

83. Back at ya Bluebear...

It's kind of strange, two of the most progressive men picked out for attack.
:hug:
Lee

[Swamp Rat]

116. That is not the first time this has happened.

There are progressive men on this board who are willing to fight tooth and nail, quite literally, to defend women's right to choose.

[Name removed]

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[Bluebear]

48. "Santanic practice of killing the unborn" - - is that related to Santana?

If you're going to be a new religious convert and follow their teachings blindly, you have to get the lingo down right.

[Forkboy]

49. It's the new Slayer CD

:)

[Bluebear]

50. Stop, I'm off to make womanhood miserable.

:eyes:

[Forkboy]

51. I'd join you but my penis pump just arrived in the mail.

:bounce:

[Prophet 451]

201. Keyboard soaked in coffee again n/t

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

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[michael_1166]

58. Here's what you've chosen to follow blindly

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/fv_list.html
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/mk/fv_list.html
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/lk/fv_list.html
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/jn/fv_list.html

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/inj_list.html
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/mk/inj_list.html
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/lk/inj_list.html
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/jn/inj_list.html

[Warren DeMontague]

59. So you don't use birth control or masturbate, eh?

And I have to assume you're opposed to the Death Penalty, and the War in Iraq.

[Name removed]

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[Madspirit]

91. *snerk*

She was pure of heart, virginal and devoted to YOU, YOU, YOU, YOU. It's not really all about you. You need some help...STAT. You sound like the worst of the worst. I've seen more progressive men at Ann Coulter's Demon Forum.
Lee

[Madspirit]

93. Soooo

Are you going to answer his question? Any hairy palms on you?
Lee

[Name removed]

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[Madspirit]

96. Pro-War and Anti-Choice

You really are NOT going to find yourself very welcome here. Go read the rules.
Lee

[Warren DeMontague]

140. You didn't answer the question about masturbation.

And the church isn't about "every effort" not to use birth control or to masturbate- it's NOT TO masturbate or use birth control.

Seems to me plenty of members of the religious right are perfectly willing to use their church's teachings (be it the Catholic Church or whatever) as a list of things NOT to do when they're railing about shit like abortion or gay relationships. Only when the edicts cross into the territory of their own personal lives does that change to "it's not about what *I* shouldn't be doing"

And the Church IS opposed to the War in Iraq, just as it is opposed to abortion. Are we picking and choosing which teachings to listen to, here?

That's nice that you're willing to cut yourself such slack- now how about extending that courtesy to the rest of the human race?

[Madspirit]

64. I Hope You Leave Really Soon

...and I do NOT welcome you here. Go preach your fucking crap elsewhere. My uterus does not belong to YOUR fucking god. ...or to you or to my SO or to the state or to anyone else. It belongs to me and I will have an abortion if I want. No power in the 'verse will stop me. Go away now.
Lee

[Name removed]

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[Madspirit]

88. Not Sorry

If you want to preach go to the religion forums. I'm an atheist, a lesbian and pro-choice. I also think sex is a wonderful thing and not something only reserved for marriage....NOT THAT THEY LET "US" GET MARRIED ANYWAY. I also think you have an absurd view of rape and other forms of sexual violence against women. I actually think your viewpoints HURT people...are HARMFUL to people. I also think your church is one of the worst institutions on the entire planet, harmful, destructive, punitive, vicious, sticks it's nose in other people's business, etc. I think the Pope should go stick his head up his own butt.

As long as you think you are HERE to preach, you won't get far or make very many friends. This is Democratic Underground. The owners themselves are pro-choice and this forum is here to support the interests of the Democratic Party and that party is pro-choice.

I suggest Facebook, Xanga or Live Journal if you want to practice blogging.
Lee

[Bluebear]

130. Sorry, we are not here for you to "practice" on.

Begone.

[uppityperson]

67. Why are you living in SF?

Best of luck with blindly following another human's interpretation of what god has indicated is best. Myself, I acknowledge the fact that ANY and EVERY human has fallacies and it is best IMHO to be able to think for ones self. Not looking for a Big Daddy to tell me what to do, but to figure things out and be a good person on my own.

[Name removed]

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[uppityperson]

89. Godswill as interpreted by another human and passed on by other humans.

Do you read the original books of the Bible in the original languages? Translations differ, interpretations differ, church teachings have come through many people, each with their own foibles. I am not saying that much of it is wrong, but paths differ and there are many ways to the same goal, most organized religions are the same at their basic core: be humane. My faith is personal, church of all, so it is flawed where Catholicism isn't because of its organization? My opinion differs.

[Name removed]

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[Lone_Star_Dem]

65. I have a question about what you said

"marry someone you love and have sex then. If everyone did that, there would be no rape, no abortion, no divorce."

How would this help prevent rape? It's not about sex it's an act of violence and the fact that anyone in this day and age could still not "get" that really is amazing.

[Name removed]

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[Madspirit]

95. GROW UP

You know nothing about rape, psychology, biology...that isn't actually how viagra works...you don't know much at all.


5. How does Viagra work?
An erection is the result of an increase in blood flow into certain internal areas of the penis. Viagra works by enhancing the effects of one of the chemicals the body normally releases into the penis during sexual arousal. This allows an increase of blood flow into the penis.


Once again...grow up.

Lee

[mudesi]

98. Rape is not rarer in Islamic countries.

I should also add that rape is much rarer in Islamic countries because their culture does not pressure men to be sexual active to be "cool." Making pre-matural sex un-cool, does indeed lower the rate of rapes.

Wrong, wrong, and wrong.

Islam allows men to essentially treat women like property. They can have multiple wives, they can "marry" minors, and they can divorce them at any time, which makes them basically free to rape women at any time they wish. Women, on the other hand, are expected to remain obedient and faithful to their husbands. Read up on marriage in Islam here.

[Madspirit]

100. Exactly!

Jeez...this provo person needs some real education. The ONLY reason there are less reports of rape there is because it's not called "rape"...it's called entitlement.

Lee

[uppityperson]

107. Wrong wrong wrong. Rapists are not angry about being unable to engage in your described relationship

IF you truly are trying to learn so you can talk with young people, get some education on what rape is, who rapists are.

"I should also add that rape is much rarer in Islamic countries because their culture does not pressure men to be sexual active to be "cool." Making pre-matural sex un-cool, does indeed lower the rate of rapes."

Wrong wrong wrong. Some countries prepubescent girls are forced to marry older men. I would call what happens there rape, even if it were legal. Making pre-matural sex uncool has nothing to do with rape incidence. Rape is violence disguised as sex.

[mudesi]

66. Talk about delusion...

The larger issue is sex: marry someone you love and have sex then. If everyone did that, there would be no rape, no abortion, no divorce.

Really? No rape, no abortion, and no divorce?

While it may be comforting to believe in the simplistic, happy go lucky sun drops and lollipop kindergarten world that the Catholic Church seems to think exists, the real world is quite a different place.

It's possible that you believe such inanity, but your beliefs are without a doubt completely false. There are millions of people who married because they were in love. We all personally know many of them. (My cousin is one of those. He got divorced).

They have abortions, they get divorced, and yes, they even experience rape by their own spouses in many cases.

Sometimes they fall out of love. Sometimes they get unlucky and hit hard times. Sometimes traumatic experiences psychologically damage them. Sometimes they become different people as they grow older. Things happen. It's called Life.

I have no "opinion" here, but rather follow the church's teachings without question.

I see you are one of those people who allow others to do your thinking for you. You are precisely the type of American I was referring to in my OP. Why do you allow a man who lives on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean to vote for you? What is it about abortion in the United States of America that causes this neurological wall?

[Madspirit]

68. Good Post LS...n/t

[Name removed]

102. Deleted message

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[uppityperson]

69. How about this idea of choice? legal or not-legal?

If a woman is going to get an abortion, should she have the choice of getting a legal one or an illegal one which has a higher chance of causing serious harm or death to her? Abortions have always been available, women have died from getting them, yet women continued to get them. And more died. If someone was going to get an abortion, should she have the choice of getting one that wouldn't kill her also, or render her infertile, or should she just submit to whomever she can find, whatever she can find, and die also?

[Name removed]

103. Deleted message

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[uppityperson]

112. wtf does "abortion is certain scenarios" mean?

Can you answer my questions, both in subject line and below/

If a woman is going to get an abortion, should she have the choice of getting a legal one or an illegal one which has a higher chance of causing serious harm or death to her? Abortions have always been available, women have died from getting them, yet women continued to get them. And more died. If someone was going to get an abortion, should she have the choice of getting one that wouldn't kill her also, or render her infertile, or should she just submit to whomever she can find, whatever she can find, and die also?

[uppityperson]

125. what does "abortion is certain scenarios" mean?

Can you answer my questions, both in subject line and below?

If a woman is going to get an abortion, should she have the choice of getting a legal one or an illegal one which has a higher chance of causing serious harm or death to her? Abortions have always been available, women have died from getting them, yet women continued to get them. And more died. If someone was going to get an abortion, should she have the choice of getting one that wouldn't kill her also, or render her infertile, or should she just submit to whomever she can find, whatever she can find, and die also?

[Bluebear]

134. Holy trolly, go "practice" your catechism class elsewhere on the web

We are not your lab rats.

[uppityperson]

135. please join me in clicking. Thank you.

[Bluebear]

137. Way ahead of you. nt

[Warren DeMontague]

56. Day-umm.

:popcorn:

[Raine]

45. It's a 'wedge issue' for

the CONservatives that helps them get into office, that's the number one reason. IMO

[Hieronymus]

53. Bingo .. they never want to outlaw it because it would remove that wedge.

:eyes:

[xchrom]

57. if you want to control someone -- there is no better way to do it

than to control their genitals.

americans are notoriously fearful of women -- and women OWNING their bodies.

abortion isn't about the unborn or fetuses -- it's about an individual persons access to the kind of health services they need at the time for their bodies.

but we can not think of women as persons.

they must at all times be women and therefore subject to someone elses opinion about what should or shouldn't happen to their bodies.

[noiretextatique]

72. agree

women can't be trusted to make decisions about their own bodies and healthcare, according to the snti-choice folks. it's truly an obscene position when espoused by the likes of the mass murders currently in control of the government who don't seem to care about killing unborn iraqis, or their mothers (or fathers, brothers, sisters, etc.)

[Forkboy]

75. Can I agree with you without getting my head bitten off?

:D

:hi:

[xchrom]

86. biting wouldn't be the first thought to come to my head.

:smoke:

[Forkboy]

110. I love it when you talk dirty!

:evilgrin:

[xchrom]

158. aw -- you say the sweetest things.

:evilgrin: :party: :evilgrin: -- ya know there's really not a smiley for this.

well -- yeah -- no not a smiley ;)

[Name removed]

109. Deleted message

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[uppityperson]

113. Can you move society forward without personally reproducing?

Is it ok to make abortions illegal and unsafe, knowing that people will continue to have them, as they have forever, but more women will die? Safety moves society forward.

[xchrom]

160. listen bub -- i am a christian -- but not superstitious or crude

in thinking and or believeing.

i'm well read, educated and very worldly.

being ignorant and backwards gains points neither with god nor man.

you can sink back into an animalistic -- barbaric mind set when thinking about women and ther bodies -- but don't come to me with your insanity -- cause that's what it is -- NUTS.

worse -- i think you know it's nuts.

you need help.

[Socal31]

60. We are forgetting...

The big wedge issue that brought out the republican base was the Gay Marriage bans....

Clever Governers, with the help and funding of the national party I am sure, started adding worthless Constitutional Amendments to thier states ballots, regarding "marriage is between a man and a women blah blah."

What issue(s) can we get on state ballots that drives out the moderate dems??? Thats the question!

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

61. I think that America has a large, core group of Christians who are very provincial in their thinking

and very zealous in their political outlook. I really get the impression that it's a significantly larger proportion here than in any other modern major country, and I live right in the middle of the Bible Belt now. Not so much the proportion of people who call themselves "Christian", which is just as high in many other countries, but the proportion who are very provincial in their thinking, prone to self righteousness, and having issues like abortion and gay marriage be primary drivers of their voting behavior.

And the Republican Party has learned to be able to utilize abortion as an issue to mobilize these votes as a bloc, without even having to "act" on it, beyond the recent legislation, which was really designed to inflame these voters, over an issue ("partial birth" abortion) that affects few.

I had the impression that this phenomenon was since the 70s and the era of Roe vs. Wade, although another poster put the beginnings of this to the Reagan era. I'm not aware that this was any kind of major political issue or fault line in the 60s or earlier.

Even though another poster mentioned the frequent gay marriage/"defense of marriage" legislation introduced with every election, which is aimed at much the same group of voters, I personally don't think this issue has anywhere near the amount of resonance and emotional impact as abortion does with these people.

I really hope that if we can pull off a win in both the WH and Congress in 08 that the tendency of fundy Christians to marry up with the Republican Party will be severely discouraged, if nothing else because the Republicans will no longer actively court these votes so much if it doesn't get them the power they seek.

I'm hoping events push the Republicans where they can no longer say "fuck swing voters, we're going to be as nasty and divisive as possible and win just by getting our partisans to vote", and have to come back to the center.

Unfortunately I'm almost permanently pessimistic now.

[Name removed]

114. Deleted message

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[uppityperson]

117. Here is a strong response.

Fuck off you misogynistic homophobic asshole. How DARE you come to DU to promote this crap?

[uppityperson]

118. Here is a not so strong rebuttal.

Are you seriously saying that the only reason for life is to procreate and gay marriage and abortion are equally evil since neither results in procreation? If you REALLY hold a firm position, you do not NEED to FORCE it on others but acknowledge that your position works for you and we are all not the same. Don't hurt people, don't hurt things, be humane. All the rest is window dressing. You have no clue.

[Name removed]

122. Deleted message

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[uppityperson]

124. You don't mean to upset me yet your misogynistic ways do. Why are you on DU?

Are you seriously saying that the only reason for life is to procreate and gay marriage and abortion are equally evil since neither results in procreation?

Speaking politely while dooming others, mighty "catholic" of you. I speak impolitely to those seeking to harm me and others.

Here is a bit of your writings on this topic.

marry someone you love and have sex then. If everyone did that, there would be no rape, no abortion, no divorce
Blindly following is rooted in western tradition and its actually quite fun sometimes:
She was not like many American women that seek self-satisfaction, but rather looked at the relationship as, "How can I serve this young man?" and that's refreshing. She was unspoiled -- was completely dedicated to me (thus changing my life). It helped that she was beautiful and very smart!
I do support the War in Iraq
I couldn't do this alone --that would be a creating a "Church of Myself" which is flawed by it's very nature!
Rather, most rapist fit a pattern: they feel angry about being unable to engage in the sort of honorable man-woman relationship I described. Hence they feel like a "loser" and then start to desire to control women's freewill, to force them to have sex.
I should also add that rape is much rarer in Islamic countries because their culture does not pressure men to be sexual active to be "cool." Making pre-matural sex un-cool, does indeed lower the rate of rapes.
Abortion is Certain Scenarios
I seek to use my sexuality in a way that actively cooperates in God's Creation: having children! Anything else is just a waste of time for it doesn't move mankind forward!
GayMarriage/Abortion = same thing
Many liberals have no clue here, and just respond essentially "whatever floats your boat." That's not a strong response, but just another way of saying, "I don't know, ask someone else."


Hello! I don't mean to upset you -- I speak politely.

Go spread your polite put downs and hatred elsewhere. Why are you on DU?

[Name removed]

144. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[uppityperson]

146. Living in SF has nothing to do with DU. Here are the rules. You seem to not meet them.

Spamming is not allowed either. Answering questions is a good strategy and not with "i am smiling politely and live in SF".

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html
1. This is a moderated discussion forum with rules. We have a team of volunteer moderators who delete posts and ban disruptors. Members are strongly urged to familiarize themselves with our rules, and make an effort to become a positive member of our community. Those who do not risk having their posts deleted or their posting privileges revoked.
2. Who We Are: Democratic Underground is an online community for Democrats and other progressives. Members are expected to be generally supportive of progressive ideals, and to support Democratic candidates for political office. Democratic Underground is not affiliated with the Democratic Party, and comments posted here are not representative of the Democratic Party or its candidates.

[Madspirit]

123. Anti-Gay

Anti Gay is actually SPECIFICALLY against the rules here you homophobic bastard. I have alerted on you as have many other. I expect a "bye bye" real soon.
Lee

[riderinthestorm]

153. My father's ideal of human sexuality was to fuck my sisters

One of which ended up pregnant.

She had an abortion.

Do you have an answer to that big Catholic guy?

Problem is you want to idealize sex and sexuality but there is a whole plethora of people for whom sexual violence is the norm, fucking relatives is the norm, raping your wife is the norm, taking multiple partners (via the Islamic way - gag - multipe wives (cough) or otherwise)...

There is no "FIRM" way. There is a human way and that you fail to see the endless variables is beyond sad - it's sickening. It's not "whatever floats your boat" it's seeing the grey and dealing with it instead of just "seeing the ideal" and damning the rest.

[uppityperson]

155. please join us in clicking.

on the "smilingly polite catholic"

[riderinthestorm]

157. Oh hell, that was done LONG ago.... nt

[Name removed]

185. Deleted message

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[Bluebear]

161. 'Many liberals have no clue here'

:eyes:

[paparush]

70. 'Cause we live in the Puritan States of America

[demgurl]

71. In parts of Canada it is an issue for the people.

I know it has been a while since I have been to 'the rock' but growing up in Newfoundland the one thing I remember, in high school, was how my friend would go to a school sanctioned abortion protests every single Friday. All of the schools were Catholic/Protestant and they all were against such evils as abortion.

Admittedly I none of the folks bombed a clinic or did the disheartening things groups do down here. Nonetheless, they did protest and were against it.

I still remember the day when my friend called me. I had moved down to the US and she was frightened as all get out saying she was late for her period. It was then that she confided in me that even though she had gone to all those protests, she now was thinking differently since she might be pregnant. Yeah, it is easy to judge others and try to take away their choice when you are not the one who is possibly in trouble. And it could be said that adoption is always an option but I am not even sure a baby would have made it to term with this girl. She and her family were so poor that there were times when they had to borrow tea bags from neighbors just so they would have anything for supper. That was when I put them on my credit card so they could get food for themselves. But there is only so far your own money can go when you are supporting yourself and then your friend's family of four. Her Mom was literally too crazy to work. Her grandmother was too old. Her father was diagnosed with a heart condition and told if he went to work (or exerted himself) he would likely die. And then there was my friend who did work but there was car, house, gas, electric, phone and food payments on a 21 year olds pay check. She could not afford prenatal vitamins and whatnot and possibly missed work for morning sickness and when you get to the end and just can not work any more or even possibly getting put on bed rest. No, none of that was an option for a family on the verge of being homeless.

When she went to take her test I sent her flowers which were at her house when she got home with the thankfully good results that she was not pregnant.

I guess there are several points here. One point is that people do care and protest up in Canada. The other is that you should never judge someone else or try to take away their rights based on what your personal beliefs are because you never know when they might change!

[Solon]

73. Its mostly about control and some trumped up myths, also I think the media is to blame. n/t

[achtung_circus]

76. Whenever I run into a thread like this

I am reminded of the book "Fire and Ice" by Michael Adams, co-founder of Environics. Social values systems, and the quantification thereof is his pet topic, and this book is sub-titled The United States, Canada and the Myth of Converging Values.

One of the statistics he cites asks this question. Both men and women answered, which makes it especially odd.

"Father of Family MUST be the master in his own house."

Quebec 15%
British Columbia 17%
Atlantic 18%
Ontario 18%
Manitoba/Sask. 21%
Alberta 21%
New England 29%
Plains 36%
Pacific 43%
Mid-Atlantic 45%
Midwest 46%
Mountain 49%
Texarkana 54%
South Atlantic 59%
Deep South 71%

While the various regions line up pretty much as one would expect within the countries, especially interesting is the dichotomy between the countries.

Alberta, commonly perceived as home of the worst rednecks in Canada (and I know better, I lived there for decades) is more "liberal" in this regard that New England, perceived at the most "liberal" of the American regions. The answer takes the entire book and a lot of statistics and analysis.

You either love the book or you hate it, but it's fascinating stuff.

On edit: Note the minor 6% spread within Canada and the huge 42% spread in the US. This makes the "wedginess" of men's control over women, including control over their uteri, much greater in the US and therefore more likely to be utilized by politicians.

[electron_blue]

78. We have been manipulated. It's a class issue, not a sex issue. It's all about

controlling the masses. Canada sounds quite lovely in many ways to me.

[Madspirit]

82. It's Both

...but you're right; it's definitely a class issue too. After all, women with money can just fly someplace else to get an abortion or buy a doctor. Poor women are the ones who will have to resort to desperate acts, often dying in the process.
Lee

[leftofthedial]

79. it is one of the wedge issues the oligarchy uses to divide the people

keeping us disorganized while they kill us.

[KG]

80. the US is one seriously fucked-up country.

[Arugula Latte]

90. We have waaaay more than our fair share of religious idiots here.

It's not fair. Why do we have all these rightwing fundy freaks? I want to ship them to their own island.

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

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[spoony]

94. There is a strain of dread simplicity running through some of these posts

I don't think it helps discourse in this country when people on one side are slinging the "baby killer" names whilst people on this thread are throwing about the other side of the coin: that any pro-lifer is a misogynistic fundy puritan.

No bloody wonder there is such division, with idiotic labels being attached to each side by the other.

[Madspirit]

99. Repeating My Entire Post

We have fundamentalist nut-cases ruling our country right now. You've noticed the Theocrat in the White House? It's about control of women. The more Right Wing the Religionists, the more they want to control "their" women and the more they think they actually have a right to make other people's decisions for them.

...and we actually usually only say "it's a parasite" after we are FED UP TO OUR FUCKING EYEBROWS with the "IT'S A BABY YOU KILLERS" arguments. Right-to-Lifers can dish it out with their perverted interests in pictures of aborted fetuses they've Photoshopped to look as gross and heartrending as possible and other emotional CRAPOLA but they sure can't take it when it comes back on them. Then they whine about our choices of words and act all aghast and shocked I tell you...shocked...and they talk about all the little soft powdered pink-cheeked raspberry lipped cooing and dimpled...almost babies...that we are trying to MURDER. So a little "parasite" now and then... Handle it.

It should be like it is in Canada but the people I'm referring to think they are The Deciders For Everyone because that's the underlying fascistic American personality. "I am going to take my gun and force everyone to be just like me 'cause I'm a 'Markin and I'm right and everyone else is wrong and I will shoot their knees off because I can't STAND differences..." ...and yet, we...MY KIND...the awful horrid "parasite" sayers...have NEVER forced a single woman to have an abortion. The "forcing" only goes one way, ya know? I only want the right to control my own body. I don't want to control yours. The anti-choice people want to control EVERYONE.
Lee

[spoony]

101. Nothing in that escaped the simplicity I condemned.

If anything it amplified simplicity, and threw in hsyteria.

[Madspirit]

104. Kinda like YOU, huh

I mean why even post on the thread....*snerk*
Lee

[Madspirit]

106. ...and what a sexist remark

Yeah, I get a little hysterical..a word ONLY used against women...about people trying to control MY body. It's not UP FOR DEBATE. It is my body. My uterus is NOT a democracy.

...and I sure got kudoes for my post on the thread and in my PM. How many Kudoes have you gotten?

...and guess what...I'VE NEVER TRIED TO FORCE ANYONE TO HAVE AN ABORTION. I want the same respect back from the misogynist jerks who are trying to control ME.
Lee

[spoony]

115. I call men hysterical all the time, check my post history, lol.

How sexist of you to assume only women have emotions that can get out of control. And you've done a wonderful job proving my point, you can stop any time you want to.

[Name removed]

189. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

191. Deleted message

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[spoony]

108. What a blistering comeback

How will I recover.

On the plus side you'll nicely shown the problem of not simply talking to your opponents--that is why issues like this will always be divisive here, and it isn't because America hates women. It's because of this ridiculous cable talkshow showdown ready-set-holler attitude that has become the basis of our politics.

[Madspirit]

111. Let me know when YOU get pregnant

Oh wait, you're a guy. So you have NO idea what this issue really FEELS like to the people who are being controlled. Don't worry, I won't be responding to YOU anymore.

Go visit Rosy and her sisters.... You need it.
Lee

[Bluebear]

127. I'd love to help you back here, Lee...

but I can't see who you are posting to ;)

[spoony]

132. You forgot to add "because I can't stand differing opinions"

[Madspirit]

163. It's cool Bluebear

I can't see them anymore either...
Lee

[joshcryer]

128. Like I said in my reply, this is more an internet/mass media thing.

This doesn't exist for the most part in reality. You know, the real world, where you go out and take a nice breath of fresh air. And stuff. :)

[spoony]

136. Unfortunately, that steers our ship

It seems that more and more disagreements of policy are personal wars people wage with a scorched earth philosophy.

[joshcryer]

143. There can be no shades of grey, didn't you know?

Only absolutes.

[Name removed]

119. Deleted message

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[uppityperson]

121. You are only asking us to die after illegal abortions and gay marriage to be banned.

You are only practicing your points to be able to talk with teens and show them that their feelings are evil, and they are sinners for having them. Not controlling at all.

[Name removed]

139. Deleted message

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[uppityperson]

142. Balogna. Here are your words...

All taken from this topic.

marry someone you love and have sex then. If everyone did that, there would be no rape, no abortion, no divorce
Blindly following is rooted in western tradition and its actually quite fun sometimes:
She was not like many American women that seek self-satisfaction, but rather looked at the relationship as, "How can I serve this young man?" and that's refreshing. She was unspoiled -- was completely dedicated to me (thus changing my life). It helped that she was beautiful and very smart!
I do support the War in Iraq
I couldn't do this alone --that would be a creating a "Church of Myself" which is flawed by it's very nature!
Rather, most rapist fit a pattern: they feel angry about being unable to engage in the sort of honorable man-woman relationship I described. Hence they feel like a "loser" and then start to desire to control women's freewill, to force them to have sex.
I should also add that rape is much rarer in Islamic countries because their culture does not pressure men to be sexual active to be "cool." Making pre-matural sex un-cool, does indeed lower the rate of rapes.
Abortion is Certain Scenarios
I seek to use my sexuality in a way that actively cooperates in God's Creation: having children! Anything else is just a waste of time for it doesn't move mankind forward!
GayMarriage/Abortion = same thing
Many liberals have no clue here, and just respond essentially "whatever floats your boat." That's not a strong response, but just another way of saying, "I don't know, ask someone else."


Hello! I don't mean to upset you -- I speak politely.

[Name removed]

148. Deleted message

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[uppityperson]

151. balogna. And what the heck does your subject line have to do with anything.

Politely harming others is not being respectful to them. I prefer to face outright bigotry because then, at least, we are all clear on what is going on. You seem to prefer to lie, deceive, pretend rather than straightforwardly answer any of the questions put to you. Go away.

[riderinthestorm]

162. My father is a Catholic in good standing

and he rapes his daughters in private.

He is adored by his Catholic church and lauded by the bishops (cause he is rich).

My sister had an abortion with his child.

Can you handle that?

Your priests are raping children. They are lauded by the Catholic church and even shielded by the church. The "teachings" would be laughable if they weren't so despicable.

Have you even looked into the organization that you now lionize? They have one of the most sordid, bloody, sexualized (yes sexualized!) histories on earth. It's about money, honey. Do some research and get back to us perhaps someday when the shades have fallen from your eyes.... Don't be a sheep - be a good liberal Dem and wake up and really investigate those you hold so dear....

[Name removed]

166. Deleted message

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[JerseygirlCT]

133. Anyone seeking to limit my right to do as I will and make my

own medical choices concerning my own body deserves those names and more.

Personally, abortion wouldn't be my choice.

But damned if I'm making that choice for anyone else.

So sure, be against abortion -- don't have one. But once you cross the line into dictating someone else's choices based on your beliefs?

Misogynist fits just fine.

[spoony]

138. You can call them whatever you like

but it won't serve any good. Warping and demonizing people's motivations for holding the opinions they do is what has given us this oh-so-wonderful "war on terror" as well as the "war on dissent". It isn't any better for the pro-choice side to misapply motives than it is for pro-life side to do so.

There are, btw, a lot of woman you're calling misogynists.

[ProudDad]

202. If you don't like abortion, don't have one!

But don't try to get all "holier than thou" by comparing pro-choice folks like us who wish to be left alone in our choices to the anti-choice folks who want to tell women what they can and can't do with their own bodies.

The pro-choice side is on the "democratic" side of tolerance and freedom. The anti-choice side is misogynist and bigoted. The anti-choice folks try to hold up their "values" as more legitimate than ours and seek to limit our freedom and choices because their myths clash with our values.

I don't care what the bigot's motives are...he (usually he) is still a bigot.

[Deja Q]

97. Because babies are the only thing left being made in America?

:yoiks:

[joshcryer]

129. Best post here. Thread over.

Hehehe

[Name removed]

145. Deleted message

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[uppityperson]

147. repetition of a post may qualify as spamming which is not allowed.

You do not answer questions, just add non-progressive ideas and say you are smiling. Oh, but you live in SF, so it's ok that you believe the occupation of Iraq is fine, abortions should be banished to the back alley and gays are not contributing to society because they don't reproduce or marry, since they can't marry.

[Name removed]

149. Deleted message

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[uppityperson]

152. Not a "tip", the rules. no pleasure given or taken.

[Bluebear]

150. 'there trying' - - 'beleive' - - 'your not a Catholic'..And you're in grad school??

At STANFORD?? Please request a tuition rebate.

[Name removed]

154. Deleted message

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[Bluebear]

156. You keep trying to benefit god. We'll keep trying to benefit humanity.

As to liberals giving their academic credentials, is this another misconception you have about "liberals"?

[Madspirit]

164. I don't believe you

I don't believe you've EVER been to grad. school or undergrad. for that matter. You are a homophobic, misogynistic Pig. There's nothing righteous about you and I hope your pope chokes on his own spit. Plus, such piety from a cafeteria catholic. You do support the war and that is not what the Poop says to do. Cafeteria catholic and a pig bastard to boot.
Lee

[Bluebear]

165. Also. ADD does not mean you can't spell.

Yet another illiterate poseur trying to "fuck with the liberals". How "Christian".

[Name removed]

169. Deleted message

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[uppityperson]

170. bs, you been "leaving" for 1 1/2 hours. Go away.

[Madspirit]

173. Homophobic posts have been deleted...

Now waiting for the big tombstone for Mr. Misogyny.
Lee

[omega minimo]

141. bigotry

[kineneb]

159. because the US was founded by Puritans, and Canada wasn't

after they were kicked out by every other country in which they tried to live (England, Holland*)...they were a bunch of gloomy, sexually repressed people... they were afraid that someone, somewhere might be having fun, and those people had to be punished... the traditions of their repressive ways continue on here...

the abortion issue is an example (women must be punished for having sex by bearing children... after all, women are all evil temptresses and must be subdued...):sarcasm:


*they found Calvinist Holland to be too "liberal"... does that say something?
So they packed up their bags and sailed west, in an attempt to found their "perfect" society elswhere... apologies to the natives of that new world are definitely in order.

[johnaries]

167. Because some fake TV evangelists make lots of money off of it.

As long as they keep beating the drum, the donations keep rolling in. Conservative politicians noticed this, and jumped on the bandwagon.

[ellie]

168. Because it easier

for people to get riled and upset about abortion than it is to do the hard tasks of eliminating the underlying causes of abortion: lack of sex education, poverty, etc. Protesting abortion doesn't cost these people anything except maybe an afternoon screaming at pregnant women outside a clinic. There is no sacrifice, no deep thought about the issues that lay underneath, no delving into anything except abortion is murder. I have nothing but contempt for these people. Millions of live children live in poverty while these people are worried about cells. I think that anti-choicers like the clear black and white innocence a fetus represents. Once a child is born and born into poverty, it's as if the baby is now flawed for being born into said poverty. Like it is their fault. Like I said, these antichoicers don't do nuance.

[Name removed]

171. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Forkboy]

172. If you really give a shit about life complain about tax dollars being spent on bombs.

[Madspirit]

176. Hey Forkboy

Cafeteria catholic supports the war. See up-thread. Yup, supports killing Iraqi babies...and hey, some of those Iraqi women who are killed are probably pregnant. So abortion is OK as long as it's done with a bomb. Dang.
Lee

[Forkboy]

178. Well color me shocked!

Thou shall not kill...unless it's for Jaysus!

Catching that same funny smell I am?

[Bluebear]

179. Well thank goodness THAT'S gone!

[Hespera]

183. Dear Sir, I will pray for you.

Dear Sir, I will pray for you.

[Name removed]

186. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

190. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bluebear]

192. Sicko. nt

[riderinthestorm]

174. You haven't responded to one of my posts.

About my father. And his rape of my sisters.

You also haven't addressed your priests raping children. But I guess they didn't use condoms so that kind of sex was okay?

[Name removed]

184. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[uppityperson]

175. abstinence makes the heart grow fonder, just say no. Don't provide contraception, or abortions.

[ellie]

177. ?!

You ask what kind of people can't afford $3 for condoms? The poor can't. And you are saying that the poor should practice chastity? You are kidding, right? And then you write that you don't want your tax dollars paying for free condoms. Do you think that eliminating abortion and making a woman have a baby that she can't afford or care for is more economically feasible? Do you think your tax dollars won't be paying for WIC and ADC or whatever it is called in New York for this hypothetical woman and her baby?

The funny part about my previous post is that it's not even what I really feel about abortion. I was just articulating what I believe antichoicers feel. What I really think is that what I do with my body is none of anyone's damn business. So antichoicers: MIND YOUR OWN GOD DAMN BUSINESS!

[agincourt]

181. Our critical thinking skills are less than Canadians are nt

[Jack_DeLeon]

187. Because some people truely believe it is murder...

dont you think murder is wrong?

I dont think it is murder, or alteast if it is not at first couple of stages of pregnancy. Some people disagree.

[Moses2SandyKoufax]

193. Many people who bellieve

"abortion is murder" are also pro-death penalty, and pro-war. Just sayin'.

[Jack_DeLeon]

194. but....

those they dont believe the death penalty is murder. Nor do I.

The logic is fetus = baby, killing an innocent baby is murder.

A person on death row is not innocent thier death is not murder it is justice.

Personally I think later term abortions might be murder, but I dont think that earlier in the pregnancy it is.

I think that the death penalty is justice, people who kill others for no good reason deserve to die. Now if you have a good enough reason for it then I dont think they should be given the death penalty.

[Moses2SandyKoufax]

197. No, its hypocrisy pure and simple.

Most people who call themselves "pro-life" don't really give a damn about the fetus. Just another way to control and punish women. The death penalty is state sanctioned murder.

"Abortion is murder, but don't take away my guns cuz huntin' sure is fun!"

"Abortion is murder, oh hell yeah we should nuke those AYErabs and let Allah sort em out"

"Abortion is murder, the death penalty is justice! even though innocent people and the mentally retarded might take the needle"





"Now if you have a good enough reason for it then I dont think they should be given the death penalty."
I killed him because, well some people need killin' How very Texan of you. :eyes:

[Jack_DeLeon]

204. If you say so...

while yes I'm sure there are plenty of them are hypocrites, they exist in all walks of life and hypocracy isnt ideologically specific either.

There are plenty of people who honestly believe just what I posted I have family members who believe exactly that way and I do myself to a degree.

As for the good reason, yes. I believe the death penalty should be reserved for people who already have violent criminal records or those people who murder others randomly or for no good reason.

IMO there can be cases where murder albeit not legal might not be so bad as to warrent the death penalty. Lets say someone threatens your life and the life of your family, you decide to murder them right now so as to not having to be going the rest of your life worrying about that threat. That would obviously be murder but if you had no previous violent criminal background I would see that murder as atleast being understandable.

Other example, say someone defrauds you and essentially robs you of your life savings/retirement. Ala what Ken Lay did. Murder in that sitution is still murder but it atleast is understandable.

There is atleast some logical reason for the murder it IMO is not as much of a crime as random murder which I think tends to have a bigger effect on society as a whole and should be punished harder.

[Blashyrkh]

195. Because

It's a simply wedge issue that polarises the population to a large degree and allows the populace to fight about an inconsequential issue while the Government continues to rape and pillage in your name.

[ComerPerro]

196. its an easy issue for fundies to get behind. Consider:

They get to claim moral superiority, and they get to pretend they are standing up for a persecuted group without actually having to do anything at all. All they have to do is keep the outrage coming. And they get to congratulate themselves on being more moral than the rest of society. It fuels their desire to be thought of as rebels while pushing the status quo.

[Tsiyu]

200. It's a shame thing in America

This is a strange country when it comes to accepting sexuality.

We are saturated with images selling objects and "the good life" through stereotypical sexual imagery, mostly relying on the Madonna/Whore thing but also making sex seem "naughty" rather than natural in the media - even in some ads for products such as men's ED meds. Sex is sold as a sinful desire rather than as a normal human behavior.

But currently, as in the past, the personal culture (vs the media culture) is more prudish. Many American parents can't even explain the facts of life to their kids because they are shame-filled adults, and they rely on abstinence-only programs to make up for their pitiful grasp of human behavior and their pathetic notion of proper parenting.

Add to that a lot of greedy, bloodthirsty people who kill innocent children through war, pollution, lack of support for prenatal care and contraceptives, lack of modern health care....for $$$ and don't bat an eyelash.

These sorts have to have SOME issue to make them seem more pious and Pro Living People than those of us who want to actually take care of the poor pregnant mother in South Central LA (rather than spending our resources bombing the poor pregnant mother in Iraq.)

Many of these greedy, bloodthirsty " Christians" (this is what most call themselves) get a two-fer by voting against abortion rights for women. They also get to impose their skewed, selfish desires on the rest of us.

They cry over unborn babies in America while they blow up innocent children in Iraq. The people who vote based on this one issue simply want to save face because their true evil shows. Many innocent people - because of the peculiarly American tradition of ignoring reality when it comes to sex - get caught up in the anti-abortionists' zeal to make ANYONE else the scapegoat, so politicians who support abortion rights become their targets.

Shame 'em, baby.

It almost always works here for some reason.

[Prophet 451]

203. Several reasons

1. Religion or to be more exact, the Religious Reich. We're not talking here of the general Christian or even the fundementalist but of the anti-evolution, anti-sex, pro-death penalty for virtually everything type of religion that, say, Pat Robertson espouses. While there are such people in other countries, they tend to be a very small background noise. In the US, their numbers are higher and because they make such sensational news copy, they make a lot of noise.

2. America is generally schizophrenic about sex. While hardcore porn has been legal for years, it also has tv shows that resemble a disapproving sexual freak show. Because the USA is built on the culture of the individual, there is a persistent thread which holds that not only do you have a right to your opinions but the very existance of something you disapprove of is an infringement of those rights. You see this all the time from the idiots who claim not allowing teacher-led school prayer violates their right to freedom of religion. The cult of the individual goes far enough to make some presume that their personal feelings should have the rule of law. The USA is also much more prone to sensationalism and being led by emotion than Canada is. So when Right To Life describes abortion as an American Holocaust (and being partly Roma, I find that especially offensive) or shows photoshopped pictures of late-term abortions, using teh arguement that people recoil because they know it's wrong and people actually listen to them. Pure bullshit of course. We recoil from those photos because blood and gore has a powerful, primal effect on the human psyche, regardless of where it's from.

3. Politics. God, guns, gays and abortion are powerful wedge issues. It is therefore in politicians best interests to keep the electorate riled up about those issues.

4. Class. A good percentage of those having abortions are poor people. The USA has taken the pursuit of capitalism to lunatic extremes and many have a nasty tendancy to assume that poor people are morally or in some other way inferior to others. Therefore, they assume the same paternalist attitude that informed slavery and impose control over the population "for their own good". That attitude was implicitely endorsed by the recent SCOTUS ruling on "partial-birth" abortion. Full disclosure: I actually agree with that attitude to the extent that I think a worrying portion of the electorate are dumb as a sack of hammers.

5. Education. The average American spends less than a hundred hours annually reading for pleasure. The British total is just over four times that and I imagine the Canadian total is about the same. Lack of reading means that even people who were well educated often do not use those critical thinking skills. Also, sex-ed in the US is generally diabolical.

6. The concientious objectors. Some people have thought about abortion and have come to the conclusion that it is the destruction of human life and for various reasons (often religious but not always), they object to that. Devout Catholics tend to oppose abortion, war and the death penalty on the grounds that life, all life is sacred (which is, at least, consistent). I seem to remember that Buddhism holds similar principles. In most countries, that wouldn't matter but the USA is big enough and populace enough that a viable market demographic can be made on that issue alone (Hell, the Religious Reich constitute a viable marketing demographic alone).

7. And finally, the "only in America" factor. Several international commentators and a few American ones have noticed and commentated on the American tendancy to view every disagreement as a contest between extremes and every conflict in apocolyptic terms. Whether that's caused by or causes their media (which tends toward the same view) is open to question.