I just messed with a cop and boy! was he PISSED!

[Th1onein]

It was funny, actually.

A friend of mine sold his car to a con artist. The con artist did a fake wire transfer and my friend let him have the car. Twenty days later, the car company sent him a late notice--he was two payments behind on his car payment. Uh oh! The wire transfer had been cancelled. So, he calls and gets the guy on the phone and is given promise after promise, that the guy will bring him a cashier's check. The guy never shows up. My friend finally gives up and goes to the police.

The county sheriff's department won't take a complaint, or give him a police report, so he can't get his insurance company to pay for his loss. They tell him it's a civil matter.

I ask him if he wants me to go with him to the local city police station. He says yeah. We stop at the nearby Radio Shack and buy one of those small (they look like cell phones) tape recorders. We go to the police station, tell an officer the story. He takes the paperwork we give him and makes a copy of it and comes back to tell us that since the wire transfer took place at a bank in another city, we have to go to that city to file the charges. It's out of their jurisdiction.

All this time, I've been taping. So, now that he's refusing to make a report, I ask him if he is refusing, so I can get it clearly on tape. I tell him that if we go to the city where the fake wire transfer was put through, then they will tell us that the bank must file the complaint. And, of course, the bank, having never been harmed, won't do that. He continues to insist that the wire transfer is the crime, not the theft of my friend's car by deception, and that it's out of his jurisdiction and he will not take the report.

I tell him that I am taping the conversation. I tell him that he, personally, is now facing a civil rights case which is federal, because he is in breach of the Fourteenth Amendment, which guarantees us equal protection under the law. He says that I can't use the tape in court because I didn't tell him that I was taping him. I tell him that, in the State of Texas, only one party has to know that the conversation is being taped, for it to be admissible. His entire attitude changed when I told him I was taping him. He tells us that he needs to go and talk to his sergeant, and to "take a seat."

We wait about fifteen minutes and him and his sergeant come in. She says that they can only take a "theft by deception" case for my friend being conned out of his car, but for the wire transfer fraud, we have to go to the city where the bank is located. Of course, they are trying to save face, but that's okay. My friend got his case number and tomorrow morning he will get his police report and be able to get his insurance to pay for his car. The cops aren't too happy, but I forced them to do their jobs. Why is it that they try this shit with poor people?

You know, those little digital recorders look just like cell phones! Did I tell you that?

[lonestarnot]

1. Heh. I got the same stupid ass story from Snottsdale PD on a matter

involving access for a blind person. After I sent the dumbass a copy of the law, he went back and made it look like he was interested. I don't know what he finally decided, whether it was a police matter or not, but he must have forgotten about some of the details. Little Gonzo..Heh...

[Th1onein]

2. Keep a tape recorder handy.

It's absolutely amazing how quickly and fervently they turn to actually doing their jobs, when you catch their refusal on tape. They KNOW what the 14th Amendment is about; and they can lose their job if they abuse your civil rights. You can file a criminal and a civil complaint against them, and they know it. It's a federal case, too.

My mom showed me the little tape recorder trick. She pulled it out of her robe pocket one time when I was trying to get a police report for some jewelry that had been stolen from me. Of course, at the time, I lived in a trailer and the cop felt that I was just too poor and beneath him for him to protect my rights. His entire attitude changed and he rushed back to his car to get his report forms! It was kind of amazing!

[lies and propaganda]

14. Snottsdale police are the worst!

[Systematic Chaos]

3. Well I'm glad you at least got a police report.

Isn't it a shame that it takes THAT MUCH to get one?

Reminds me of a time when a guy jumped out of his truck and assaulted a friend of mine over something utterly petty and ridiculous. We had the guy's license plate and even found out where he lived, but when me and three friends (including the recipient of the punch and nearly broken nose) all files police reports together, the police said there was nothing they could do because we didn't have the guy's name.

Or, the day a bunch of customers came into my convenience store, telling me that somebody was passed out on the side of the building. I called Metro and was then grilled by dispatch as to, among other things: What was the guy wearing? Which face of the (small) store was he against? What was his description including height, weight and ethnicity? All this while I have a line of people building inside a tiny store who just want to buy their shit and leave. I finally took the phone away from my ear and announced to the crowd, "Well, isn't that just like Las Vegas' finest? More concerned about the description of someone who might be dying than actually coming out to try and save him??" After the people in line stopped laughing the dispatch rudely told me that someone would be on their way and that was it.

Not to hijack your thread, but we got some real "winners" here in Sin City, too. :(

[Behind the Aegis]

4. Great.

It is important to point out, just as you did, that is is important to know what the "recording" laws are for your individual state. I know in NC, that at least two people, including the recorder must know. In some places, the recording device must be in plain sight, but doesn't say it must look like a recorder. It is amazing how people tunes change once they know they are being recorded. If you are doing what you are supposed to be doing, then it really doesn't matter you are being recorded.

Way to help your friend!

[Orrex]

5. Your friend was a fool for giving up the car prior to confirming receipt of the wire

Also, your invocation of the 14th Amendment seems rather like overkill; surely there are lesser laws that you could have cited without making a big Constitutional powerplay? To anyone listening to the tape, it will sound like grandstanding. Like the pre-law freshman who threatens to sue every time his pizza doesn't have enough pepperoni on it.

Notwithstanding the above, I hope that your friend will be able to achieve at least some favorable resolution.

[Th1onein]

7. You are completely and totally wrong, Orrex.

First of all, my friend AND Chrysler Credit got confirmation of the wire. In fact, they even released the title to the car and had it sent to my friend (who, luckily, never gave it to the con artist). Apparently, it was a REAL account that it was wired from, but NOT the guy's account and the person who had the account saw the money transferred out and reversed the transfer.

As to the 14th Amendment, it has served me well, in dealing with the police. Apparently, it is about the only thing that they listen to. What other law, than that guaranteeing my friend to equal protection under the law, would apply here, in your opinion? What "lesser law"?

Believe me, the tape doesn't sound like I'm grandstanding. What WAS incriminating, though, was the cop telling me that I couldn't use the tape recording in a court of law because he had not known I was recording him. What WAS incriminating was his entire change of attitude when he found out he had been recorded refusing to do his job.

My friend is going to get his car paid for. That's what needs to be done. And he shouldn't have to run all over the country trying to get a simple police report.

And, by the way, this is the SIXTH time that I, personally, have been involved in this type of thing--where cops refuse to do their jobs because they either just don't feel like it, they don't like the accuser, or some other stupid reason--I am SICK of it. Apparently, the 14th Amendment reminder works very well.

And, by the way, there's also a procedure in Texas where when a VICTIM of a crime reports the crime to the police, the police ask to see the victim's driver's license. They do this because they hope to run the license and get a hit for an old traffic warrant and make some bucks off the victim. If you think about it, what this does is it makes it less likely that poor people (who often drive cars with expired inspection stickers, etc.) will report crimes committed against them. And guess what? It is absolutely okay to refuse to give the cop your driver's license. They'll tell you that they can't take the report without it, and there's even a place for it on the report. But they are lying. They are required to take the report with or without seeing your license. I, personally, have had to FORCE them to do this. Guess how I forced them? By invoking the 14th Amendment, friend. They seem to pay attention to this, more than anything else, in situations like these. You know why? Because their asses have been SUED over it.

[Orrex]

8. Whatever. If your friend didn't have cash in hand, then he was a fool

Additionally, if your friend, once having learned of the bogus transfer, still bothered to deal with the alleged con man at all, rather than seeking legal counsel beyond the police, then your friend is doubly a fool. Additionally, how did he miss two payments after just twenty days? Is he required to make biweekly payments? That's possible, I suppose, but it seems likely that they'd have notified him after missing the first. For that matter, your friend should direct his creditor agency to Chrysler Credit; if Chrysler certified the wire, then they're on the hook for it.

The alleged con man in this case, if the story is true as told, is frankly guilty of wire fraud. The cop at whom you waved the Constitution would certainly have known this and would certainly have directed you to the proper jurisdiction. It's not a matter of "this city" or "that city," because it's a federal offense in addition to the theft of the vehicle and the theft of funds from the third party's account, which is itself grand larceny at the very least.

Whoever, having devised or intending to devise any scheme or artifice to defraud, or for obtaining money or property by means of false or fraudulent pretenses, representations, or promises, transmits or causes to be transmitted by means of wire, radio, or television communication in interstate or foreign commerce, any writings, signs, signals, pictures, or sounds for the purpose of executing such scheme or artifice, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both. If the violation affects a financial institution, such person shall be fined not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 30 years, or both.

That's from http://assembler.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00001343----000-.html">Cornell Law School.

When did the third party learn that his/her account had been debited fraudulently? When did Chrysler Credit learn of this? How soon thereafter did Chrysler Credit notify your friend? From the way you've told it, your friend had no knowledge of the fraud until his creditor notified him of late payment; this implies that he notified Chrysler Credit. Is this the case?

Completely and totally wrong? Maybe. But I'm not asking idle questions here; I work in the financial services industry, and I'm responsible for balancing billions of dollars' worth of assets, earnings, and payments--to the penny. It would be greatly interesting to me to learn that another portion of the finance industry has no better system of checks and balances than to wait until some random customer happens to tell them that he got screwed.

Honestly, I'm sure that you don't care whether I believe you or not, and that's fine. But the story as told is fishy in a number of ways.

[Th1onein]

9. Ah! So NOW you're calling me a LIAR?

I don't care where you work or what you do! People don't always act in the manner that you expect them to. My friend is 63 years old and he needed some help. He can't wend his way through all of the legal "who's liable" crap, while making the payments on the automobile he no longer has. And he shouldn't be expected to. He had no idea the wire transfer had not gone through and by the time he DID find out, he owed two payments--the one that was coming due when he thought he had sold the car and the most recent one. Maybe Chrysler Financial IS liable, but MY FRIEND was getting stuck holding the bag. He needed to get a police report so that he could file this on his insurance. That's the REASON he HAS insurance.

No, I don't care whether you believe me or not. But I DO care that you are publicly calling me a liar!

What OUGHT to concern you is that one person, ONE PERSON, would have SIX occasions in their lifetime, where the cops used their discretion in order to NOT do their job. In order to NOT protect those they are sworn to protect. Something is seriously wrong when a citizen has to fight to have a police report filed. If I had not gone with my friend and taped them refusing to do their job, I can bet good money that they would have still been giving my friend the runaround. He would have had to pay to get his own vehicle repossessed, while still making payments on it. And, even after it was repossessed, he would have been stuck with trying to sell a vehicle that was not in the shape it was in, and not as valueable as it was when he lost possession of it. He would have been SCREWED.

[Orrex]

15. I'm not calling you a liar. I'm saying that the story as told is fishy

The whole thing doesn't pass the smell test.

I don't care where you work or what you do! People don't always act in the manner that you expect them to.

Of course they don't, and that's why the industry is regulated.

It's also quite telling that, rather than posting here to lament your poor friend's victimization, you crow about messing with the cops. What could have been presented as a fairly straightforward case of larceny and wire fraud was instead transformed into a power-to-the-people crusade.

You want a quick way to settle this? Post the audio. If I'm wrong in my assessment, I'll apologize cheerfully and publicly and recant all my previous posts on this matter.

[Th1onein]

18. Hey, I'd LOVE to post the audio.

Just tell me how to do it, and I'll do it. Can I post it direct, to this thread?

I would love to post it. I don't LIKE people who tell me that what I say is "fishy," which is another way of calling someone a liar.

Tell me how to post it. I'll do it in a minute. You'll hear the cop telling us that he can't help my friend because it's out of his jurisdiction, and all the rest of it.

I LOVE the truth, my friend. And, like I said before, this is the SIXTH time that I, one person, has been met with asshole cops who don't want to file a report; who aren't doing their job. Is it "power to the people"? You BET it is. Something is wrong here, and what is wrong is that the people are not protected. The businesses ARE protected. And I am goddamned well sick of it.

You should be, too.

Tell me how to post the audio. Then YOU eat some crow, big boy.

[Selatius]

19. Is this a digital device?

If it is, there is usually a way to connect the device to a computer, via a firewire port or a USB port. Usually, such devices come with instructions on how to do this and maybe some software to install onto your computer so that it will recognize the recording device when it is connected.

If it is an analog device, it's less easy but still possible, as you would need something like a microphone connected to the sound card of the computer capable of recording sound to a file format.

[Th1onein]

20. It IS digital, Sebalius.

But how do I put it in a post here? I don't know how to do that. If I sent it to you, in a private email, could you do it for me?

[Selatius]

23. you have to upload it to a place like megaupload.com

Once uploaded, it will give you the URL that you can post anywhere for people to share it. With megaupload, I don't think they require people to register at all, so anybody can upload whatever they want.

[Kingshakabobo]

10. Your post is full of bullshit. You clearly don't know retail lending/banking.

First of all, it's quite possible to be two payments behind if the person attempted to pay the vehicle off mid-month....or late. I've been in retail lending for 17 years (auto and mortgages) - we do it ALL THE TIME as long as we aren't going past the thirty day mark and dinging the customer's credit. For instance, payment due on the first, pay-off attempted on the 15th - after due date - some lenders won't even call until the payment is thirty days late.......so, another 20 days elapses, the payment is now technically 2 months behind and the bank starts their calls.

""""your friend should direct his creditor agency to Chrysler Credit; if Chrysler certified the wire, then they're on the hook for it""""

That's laughable. Since when does Chrysler "certify" wires? Even if they did, good luck trying to enforce it by suing Chrysler. The money gets yanked out of Chrysler's account??? They have one response to their customer/debtee....kind of like in the movie "Good fellas"- "fuck you, pay us."

As for the person wanting to deal with local cops. Big fucking deal. We do it all the time. I had a car stolen from a customer that we couldn't arrange financing for. The car was stolen in the City of Chicago but our store was located in the suburbs. The police gladly took a report for our insurance and, more importantly, put it on the hot sheets. It turned out the car was sitting in a city impound lot so we got it back in a day or two. It wouldn't have killed the cops in the OP to do the same.

""""It would be greatly interesting to me to learn that another portion of the finance industry has no better system of checks and balances than to wait until some random customer happens to tell them that he got screwed.""""

They probably handled it like a bounced check. No biggie......start the collection calls. My experience with collection departments has been they don't give a fuck what's going on in the other departments. Fuck you - pay us.

No one ever accused Chrysler of being smart....

I had a customer trade in a Chrysler that was 60 days behind and on the repo list. It took some time until we secured financing. In the mean while, my boss sold it against my strongest protests (and the law - no title on hand). The truck was worth about 11k but the customer owed 18k. Needless to say, it was tough to find financing for this customer....anyway, when I called to request a pay-off and the address to send them their 18k... they put me on hold to stall me while they sent the repo tow-truck to my lot. They demanded the 11k valued truck RIGHT NOW versus waiting two days for a certified check for 18k.

[Orrex]

16. I know how money movements work, and that's what's at issue here

it's quite possible to be two payments behind if the person attempted to pay the vehicle off mid-month....or late.

Fair enough. But if I'm a week late on my monthly car payment, I get a letter and a phone call. Ditto the previous two loans through two different creditors. I had guessed that this was an industry standard, but if it's not, then I retract this objection.

Since when does Chrysler "certify" wires? Even if they did, good luck trying to enforce it by suing Chrysler. The money gets yanked out of Chrysler's account??? They have one response to their customer/debtee....kind of like in the movie "Good fellas"- "fuck you, pay us."

They certify the wire by releasing the vehicle's title or by declaring the loan paid in full. If they did neither of these things, then the victim is up shit creek by his own failure to perform due diligence. If they released the title to the alleged con man, then their beef is with him, and the OP's friend is off the hook.

Additionally, money doesn't get "yanked" from Chrysler's account, unless it's put there in error by the company that manages the account, and then they do the yanking. If money comes in from outside and is later deemed to have been sent in error, then the originating entity requests that it be returned, but it's not simply yanked" from the destination account.

And if Chrysler Financial had received notification that the wire was to be returned, then they wouldn't have waited three weeks to notify the alleged victim, because in that case it wouldn't simply be a matter of two missed payments; it would have been an account settled erroneously on day one (perhaps fraudulently, if the debtor had indicated that the loan would be settled).

Here's a skeleton of how it would go:

Day 1: Wire received to settle the outstanding balance of the loan.
Day 2: Letter issued to debtor to confirm that the loan is paid in full and/or release of title
Day 20-n: Letter issued to debtor notifying him of the erroneous loan settlement. Likely this letter would also indicate the current payment status (ie., whether the payment is up to date or behind by X days) and what steps the debtor must take to avoid further penalty.

They probably handled it like a bounced check. No biggie......start the collection calls.

That would be grossly irresponsible, and any company that undertakes such lax risk control should be avoided at all costs. A recalled wire is nothing at all like a bounced check, not least because a wire is nothing like a check, nor like an ACH, for that matter. Given your considerable expertise and long experience in the industry, I trust that you'll understand the difference.

The better analogy is not to a bounced check but to a fraudulent check, because the intent in the latter case (and in the tale told in the OP) is to deceive, whereas in the former case the intent is to pay. Do the companies in your venerable history of employment make no distinction between error and fraud? If so, please tell me who they are, because you just revealed how to make a shitload of money off of them.

[treestar]

12. The victim being "a fool" does not negarte any crime

Maybe there are ways of being smart and avoiding victimization, but that doesn't create a corresponding lack of criminal prosecution for those who still manage to victimize somebody.

[Orrex]

17. Certainly that's correct

One person's foolishness doesn't justify a criminal's victimization of that person.

[treestar]

11. It's clearly theft by deception

And the cops were giving the OP's friend the runaround because they didn't feel like investigating it.

And there's no harm in reminding cops of the Constitution - I wish they were required to take annual classes in it. Some of them get their heads up their authoritarian butts.

If they don't have the resources to pursue a case, they can just say so and let the citizen realize that the governmental entity in question is short in an area and whether they want to work politically to reassign resources or change tax rates.

[Lord Helmet]

6. good 4 you just TCOB

:thumbsup:

[Clark2008]

13. We're very lucky around here, I guess.

Our cops keep a "desk sergeant" on duty to take phone ins for complaints such as these, precisely FOR giving the insurance company a case number and report.

If your car is hit on private property - call the desk sergeant. If your husband beats up your (and what is essentially his, based on the law) property - call the desk sergeant (and they also will refer it to the Domestic Crimes Unit, who will then file an OP for you).

It keeps street cops from having to stop chasing violent criminals to write reports, but also gives the public the reports they need to file for insurance claims.

[madokie]

21. I love it that you 'make them do their jobs'

maybe just maybe people will start realizing that our basic principles are being eroded right in front of our faces. One should never have to make someone do their job but it's become the norm now.

[Tulum_Moon]

22. what reason would the cops have?

Just to be jerks?